Gonzalo
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MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:16 pm

Hundreds of IB workers took the T4 in MAD today, in the first day of the second week of strikes ( Monday to Friday ), causing a severe disruption of the airport normality.

It is expected to see the same in the next days of strike, since the negotiations with IAG are frozen.

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1362340822_334356.html

Definitely not a good week for air travel in Madrid....


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BestWestern
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:45 pm

And where are the police to Evict them?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
Gonzalo
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 1):
And where are the police to Evict them?

I guess they are avoiding a confrontation since the previous week of strikes in February had a couple of "ugly" situations... but definitely the police should keep some degree of control...

Rgds.
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BestWestern
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 2):
I guess they are avoiding a confrontation since the previous week of strikes in February had a couple of "ugly" situations... but definitely the police should keep some degree of control...

So, The police are allowing people to take-over a major transport building illegally, and stopping all operations from the bullding? Spain is really going down the tubes.

I fear that Spain will follow Greece into the Abyss if this continues. I note the Anti-British flags and symbols etc

You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
goosebayguy
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:26 pm

Unemployment levels in Spain are running at 26%. I guess there will be an increase soon. IAG are losing about £10m a day which is probably less than if IB were working normally.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:41 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 3):
I note the Anti-British flags and symbols

Tipical reaction of blaming everyone but itself....IB loses money due to the aversion of the people to fly with them, and that aversion has *something* to do with the attitude of the workers for years.... but is always more effective to play the victim role and blame the other....

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 4):
which is probably less than if IB were working normally.

And that explains why IAG is not changing a coma in their restructuring plans....


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lightsaber
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:02 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 2):
I guess they are avoiding a confrontation since the previous week of strikes in February had a couple of "ugly" situations... but definitely the police should keep some degree of control...

They also need to allow some venting. But workers need to understand they must have their workload and salaries adjusted to be competitive.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 3):
I note the Anti-British flags and symbols etc

Trying to endear themselves obviously...

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 4):
Unemployment levels in Spain are running at 26%. I guess there will be an increase soon. IAG are losing about £10m a day which is probably less than if IB were working normally.

I wonder. Does IB lose more per day operating or with the strikes? I would really like to know the true numbers.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
IB loses money due to the aversion of the people to fly with them

But that's not the strikers fault.   That's management. Sigh... I really want IB to thrive, but this is not going to help.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
And that explains why IAG is not changing a coma in their restructuring plans....

I expect they might go less in favor of the workers.


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AR385
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
I wonder. Does IB lose more per day operating or with the strikes? I would really like to know the true numbers.

According to IAG, the company is losing $3 million Euro daily through the strike but the government says it is losing $10 million. That is a dramatic number because it means that if the unions go on with the 15 days already announced, the loses will come to $150 million. Plus, add the days during Easter, which they are talking about striking then too, and the cash hemorrghage is just daunting.
 
aircatalonia
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
Does IB lose more per day operating or with the strikes? I would really like to know the true numbers.

Rebooking on other companies is not cheap so I'm sure IB is losing more money now. If they hadn't sold tickets in the first place the story may have been different, though.
 
airsmiles
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:37 pm

It's a very sad situation indeed but I see absolutely no chance of Iberia employees coming out of this with any degree of success. What are the parallels here with the scale of Alitalia's and Air France's losses and how they'll be faced up to?
 
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Aesma
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:01 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 3):
I fear that Spain will follow Greece into the Abyss if this continues.

So, you think that Greece got where it is because of strikes and protests ? No, those are the consequences of the situation, not the cause.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
Tipical reaction of blaming everyone but itself....IB loses money due to the aversion of the people to fly with them, and that aversion has *something* to do with the attitude of the workers for years.... but is always more effective to play the victim role and blame the other....

Or maybe less people can afford to fly when the economy of the country is in the gutter ?
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seahawk
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:05 am

Letting Iberia go bankrupt must be an increasingly interesting option for IAG. Probably the only option left.
 
SCL767
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:45 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
IB loses money due to the aversion of the people to fly with them, and that aversion has *something* to do with the attitude of the workers for years....

Ask Ecuadorian passengers traveling between MAD and UIO/GYE on IB how they are typically treated by IB cabin crew. Chileans traveling to Europe won't stand for it and simply avoid IB. Just look at LAN's LFs on the route to MAD and AF's LFs on the route to CDG! We even have ex-IB pilots flying for LAN now!

Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
Tipical reaction of blaming everyone but itself....IB loses money due to the aversion of the people to fly with them, and that aversion has *something* to do with the attitude of the workers for years.... but is always more effective to play the victim role and blame the other....

Or maybe less people can afford to fly when the economy of the country is in the gutter ?

Meanwhile the economies of South American countries such as Chile, Colombia, Perú, etc. are experiencing robust growth. Luckily, passengers from these countries that want to travel to Spain or other countries in Europe can simply avoid flying on IB as they have other options. AV will increase frequency on the BOG-MAD route, LAN plans on increasing frequency on the SCL-MAD route; as well as launching BOG-MAD in the future. LAN has also shown an interest in serving BCN and FCO in the future. AF has shown an interest in launching CDG-UIO and will increase frequency on the CDG-LIM route. UX will soon launch MAD-MVD and will increase frequency on routes to HAV and SDQ. Perú will offer LH incentives to fly FRA-LIM. Should IB be worried? Of course not...
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:34 am

What do these people seriously think they will do here?

Theres only 2 realistic realities from actions like this:
1/ More cuts to help make to airline survive
2/ The carrier declares bankruptcy and they are ALL out of a job

Oh yeah, great plan this one. A few genius' at work again. Typical.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:12 am

Give the wounded animal a shot to the head.

Shut it down once LATAM are fully in OneWorld. Let IAG set up a shell company, reverse investment from them and LATAM into it and launch a new airline within IAG called LATAM Espana. It's a known, respected brand, totally new, cheaper employee T&Cs and remains within OneWorld.

Adios to the Iberia dinosaur.


Rgds
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LHRFlyer
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:22 am

The anti-British sentiment is disgraceful.

BALPA in particular have been empathetic to both the need of Iberia to be restructured and the concerns of its staff and has tried to offer practical support to SEPLA for negotiations between SEPLA and management. They would do well to heed it.
 
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:30 am

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 14):
Give the wounded animal a shot to the head.

Shut it down once LATAM are fully in OneWorld. Let IAG set up a shell company, reverse investment from them and LATAM into it and launch a new airline within IAG called LATAM Espana. It's a known, respected brand, totally new, cheaper employee T&Cs and remains within OneWorld.

Adios to the Iberia dinosaur.


hmm and you think that would work?
This is Europe such things wont work.
Itll be a negotiated settlement where the government comes in and pulls more than a few strings.
Question is if it will be a long term solution or a short term gap. Iberia eventually needs to address its structural deficiencies and instigate some bold reforms. Itll be a period of five years and they wont be fun and I expect that the employees will suffer a fair bit during these years. new contracts, less pay, worse conditions. just what most other European airlines has done or will have to do. (Hello SK, LH, AZ, AF etc)

While the company might go bankrupt and be restarted it wont be with any Latam involvement. Latam isnt a name that Europeans are familiar with nor is LAN seen as a quality carrier (middle of the road just like iberia)
In my opinion any new carrier would be based on the rather successful Vueling (already owned by the company) They can use similar contracts for staff and create an international division. Probably keep the name Iberia since its brand recognition is so big.

Strikes where the employees occupy and disrupt any service isn't uncommon in Europe and police are extremely unlikely to act. Unless there is a national interest for them and I doubt they see such interest with a terminal at the airport. I personally find such strikes a bit refreshing, always brings a smile to my face to see french farmers go berserk and close down half the country when they get upset over something. Not that I support that behaviour but I find it mildly amusing. Same as when the danish Carlsberg brewery workers went on strike because they weren't allowed to drink during working hours. Just makes me smile and realise the world is diverse and how much more I need to learn about other cultures.
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SCL767
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:42 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 13):
What do these people seriously think they will do here?

Raising awareness that passengers should not book flights on IB and travel on other carriers instead of IB. IB's unions refuse to realize that their competitors have lower cost structures and that their competitors' employees work just as hard for less . It's shameful that some of IB's employees will blame the additional losses associated with passengers avoiding booking flights on IB on their partner carrier BA. At SCL, LAN is rebooking passengers traveling between SCL and destinations such as CDG, FRA, LHR, MAD, MXP, etc. on flights operated by TAM. All the flights to Europe from SCL, GRU, GIG, LIM, GYE operated by LATAM will soon be oversold!
 
Icaro
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:47 am

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 15):
The anti-British sentiment is disgraceful.

There is no such sentiment. You want to take things out of context. They are blaming BA, or rather Willie Walsh and that´s why the use the british flag.
The same happened last week with those "British Go Home" on the screens. Of course they don´t mean British people but British Airways, or rather British Airways management team.
It is them they blame for how things are being done at the airline. They are not even against the salary cuts. All they want is a real plan for the company to survive and some dignity for those who are fired. They want to be offered early retirements rather that lay offs, which is rather understandable after a whole life at the company and the situation at the country which means that those fired won't be able to get a new job.
The Spanish management team agreed to those in december and later found out that WW wouldn't allow them to offer those conditions and prefer to use the new labour law that allows cheap firings so the company will save more money.

That is all their anti-British sentiment.
 
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:48 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 16):
In my opinion any new carrier would be based on the rather successful Vueling (already owned by the company)

I would agree. It has been done before with Swissair/Crossair and Sabena/Delta Air Transport.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:47 am

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 14):
Let IAG set up a shell company, reverse investment from them and LATAM into it and launch a new airline within IAG called LATAM Espana.

I don't think many people in Europe will know LATAM so deeply. And I doubt LAN management ( and their TAM counterpart ) will start this kind of adventures when there are many things to do in order to get the real benefits of LATAM, I think they will wait a good couple of years before even think in projects like the one you're talking. But obviously I could be wrong...

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BA174
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:52 am

Quoting icaro (Reply 18):

So blame everybody else but IB? Sounds familiar.

The BA management have absolutely nothing to do with the day to day running of IB. They have their own (profitable) company to run.
 
Icaro
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:12 am

Quoting BA174 (Reply 21):
The BA management have absolutely nothing to do with the day to day running of IB

I can tell you that those people marching on T4 have nothing to do with the way Iberia is being run. They don´t have anything to do with fleet planning, route planning or anything that brought the company to the state it is in now.
Those responsible are long gone with full pockets or planning to leave the company the same way.

Quoting BA174 (Reply 21):
The BA management have absolutely nothing to do with the day to day running of IB. They have their own (profitable) company to run.

IB would be profitable too if it used IAG's money to buy Air Europa and integrate it into its own structure for its own benefit.(BMI remember?) It must be easier to run a (profitable) airline when you have easy access to money that is not only yours.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:20 am

I have seen it before unfortunately... It is how the Spanish labour market works and one of the reasons that the economy is in such a state. Devolve all responsibility onto others even though at the end of the day you have to be part of your own destiny.

For example, if Iberia cabin crew actually had any people skills and didn't treat every passenger with complete and utter contempt, then maybe more people would fly with them. The same goes for ground staff. Also, being militant will not solve anything but will just contribute even more to management turning against them. The way it is in Spain now, they should just feel lucky that they have a job when a quarter of their countrymen are unemployed.

Of course a company should look after its staff within the resources they have but one part of a consortium is not there to prop up the other, but rather compliment it and I find it rather unfair that IB staff seem to have this opinion of British Airways.

Personally I think IAG should force through a full restructuring of IB by letting the carrier go bankrupt and rebirthing it through another subsiduary (as was mentioned above).
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Jerseyguy
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:52 am

This taking over of the terminal is barbaric, I hope that everyone that did so loses their jobs. Even if you agree with this strike (I'll admit I don't), you cant condone this behavior, you handle yourself with respect rather than being an angry mob.
What's next if this doesn't work do you start destroying things so the company has to pay to replace them?
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jrfspa320
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:53 am

If IB hadnt been bought by BA I think they would already be bankrupt, the Spanish government has no money to subsidize them and are restricted in doing so by EU law, maybe the workers should think about that...they have seen spanair go...
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:10 pm

Quoting icaro (Reply 22):
IB would be profitable too if it used IAG's money to buy Air Europa and integrate it into its own structure for its own benefit.(BMI remember?) It must be easier to run a (profitable) airline when you have easy access to money that is not only yours.

At the moment, BA would be more profitable had it not bought bmi. It absorbed €90m of losses from bmi last year.

There's no question that Iberia would be bankrupt now without IAG.
 
acelanzarote
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:20 pm

where is all this going to end I wonder, IAG/IB are not going to back down its seems, they cannot I guess but the Unions seem to think they have nothing to loose either....
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BlueShamu330s
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:49 pm

Quoting icaro (Reply 18):
The Spanish management team agreed to those in december and later found out that WW wouldn't allow them to offer those conditions and prefer to use the new labour law that allows cheap firings so the company will save more money.

Don't blame WW then; blame your politicians, who you elected, for introducing the new legislation.

WW has a mandate to achieve the best results for IAG. He would be fired, and rightly so, for not using whatever legislation there is to help him achieve his top priority of cost saving and saving Iberia.


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nostrum
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:50 pm

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 25):
If IB hadnt been bought by BA

IB was not bought by BA, both airlines merged and formed IAG, and before the merger and the Spanish crisis IB was profitable.
 
BestWestern
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:05 pm

Quoting icaro (Reply 22):
I can tell you that those people marching on T4 have nothing to do with the way Iberia is being run. They don´t have anything to do with fleet planning, route planning or anything that brought the company to the state it is in now.
Those responsible are long gone with full pockets or planning to leave the company the same way.

They have nothing to do with the running of the airline, yet get paid so much???

They can't have it both ways. Their salaries were a large part of why the company is losing money.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
Clydenairways
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:33 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 16):
hmm and you think that would work?
This is Europe such things wont work.
Itll be a negotiated settlement where the government comes in and pulls more than a few strings.
Question is if it will be a long term solution or a short term gap. Iberia eventually needs to address its structural deficiencies and instigate some bold reforms. Itll be a period of five years and they wont be fun and I expect that the employees will suffer a fair bit during these years. new contracts, less pay, worse conditions. just what most other European airlines has done or will have to do. (Hello SK, LH, AZ, AF etc)

While the company might go bankrupt and be restarted it wont be with any Latam involvement. Latam isnt a name that Europeans are familiar with nor is LAN seen as a quality carrier (middle of the road just like iberia)
In my opinion any new carrier would be based on the rather successful Vueling (already owned by the company) They can use similar contracts for staff and create an international division. Probably keep the name Iberia since its brand recognition is so big.

Strikes where the employees occupy and disrupt any service isn't uncommon in Europe and police are extremely unlikely to act. Unless there is a national interest for them and I doubt they see such interest with a terminal at the airport. I personally find such strikes a bit refreshing, always brings a smile to my face to see french farmers go berserk and close down half the country when they get upset over something. Not that I support that behaviour but I find it mildly amusing. Same as when the danish Carlsberg brewery workers went on strike because they weren't allowed to drink during working hours. Just makes me smile and realise the world is diverse and how much more I need to learn about other cultures.

I think your view on using the Vueling AOC is a good suggestion that makes sense.
With the way things are going at the moment i can't see any end in sight and it's getting to the stage where IAG will have to consider winding IB down.
After that in a similar situation to the aftermath of SR and SN, IAG could start a new Iberia using the Vuelling operating certificate like how the Crossair AOC was used for Swiss, and the DAT AOC was used for Brussels Airlines.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 14):
Shut it down once LATAM are fully in OneWorld. Let IAG set up a shell company, reverse investment from them and LATAM into it and launch a new airline within IAG called LATAM Espana. It's a known, respected brand, totally new, cheaper employee T&Cs and remains within OneWorld.

I really can't see that suggestion being an option.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:43 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 31):
I really can't see that suggestion being an option.

Nor can I but, as with the suggestion made by MillwallSean about using Vueling, I was simply illustrating how easy it would be. Part of the problem is that the Unions seem to think they can win this when in fact, their situation has never been more precarious. WW will win this, without a doubt.

Rgds
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lightsaber
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:19 pm

How much of an impact is this strike having on the Spanish economy? Taxes?

IB must get up their productivity to survive:
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...-least-productive-workforces-98577

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 9):
It's a very sad situation indeed but I see absolutely no chance of Iberia employees coming out of this with any degree of success.

   Sad, but instead they are trashing their brand.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
According to IAG, the company is losing $3 million Euro daily through the strike but the government says it is losing $10 million.

I bet its a $3M hit on the net and $10M on the gross with the taxes taking the brunt.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 14):
and launch a new airline within IAG called LATAM Espana.

That makes more sense than anything. I personally think WW should be looking at options for an IB exit strategy.

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 27):
where is all this going to end I wonder, IAG/IB are not going to back down its seems, they cannot I guess but the Unions seem to think they have nothing to loose either....

Then it is scorched earth. Cest la vie.

Lightsaber
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AR385
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:22 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 32):
their situation has never been more precarious. WW will win this, without a doubt.

Can you please explain what exactly do you mean by "WW will win this"? Because really, I see nobody "winning" in this situation.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:02 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
Can you please explain what exactly do you mean by "WW will win this"? Because really, I see nobody "winning" in this situation.

What I mean is exactly what I wrote. Willy Walsh will win the dispute for the survival of Iberia and for the overall performance of IAG as a whole.

Cash at IB is now 808 Million Euros. It doesn't take a mathematician to work out that, whilst IB loses 2 Million Euros a day and whilst the Union plan their four future strikes, that money isn't going to last long.

Retrieving details of the Transformation Plan statement, reveals this:

Quote:
The Transformation Plan requires permanent structural change in the Iberia business to enable it to return to profitability and growth. The plan is being executed within Iberia’s own financial resources (my add: see figures above). Iberia failed to reach agreement with the unions before the deadline of January 31, 2013 and has therefore commenced the imposition of a 15 per cent capacity reduction, pay cuts and productivity improvements under new Spanish labour laws.
There is a risk of Iberia management and unions not achieving the required changes now and, as a result of continued cash burn, being unable to fund the required changes in future years.

Iberia, once it burns its money away, will have nothing. Iberia owns less than 10 of its aircraft, it sold off Amadeus, has no other assets but does have a huge debt mountain.

The Government will not get involved. They themselves are broke and IAG is only acting within the bounds of the laws the Spanish Government introduced !

This is a dispute WW must win to preserve any future for Iberia. Once the money runs out and, as the statement says, if the situation arises that Iberia no longer has the resources to fund the required changes in future years, everyone at Iberia can kiss Iberia and their jobs for life adios. Vueling will become the new Iberia and everyone, not just those already planned to go, everyone will be joining the back of the unemployment queue.

Rgds
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Redd
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:10 pm

Quoting icaro (Reply 18):
There is no such sentiment. You want to take things out of context. They are blaming BA, or rather Willie Walsh and that´s why the use the british flag.
The same happened last week with those "British Go Home" on the screens. Of course they don´t mean British people but British Airways, or rather British Airways management team.
It is them they blame for how things are being done at the airline. They are not even against the salary cuts. All they want is a real plan for the company to survive and some dignity for those who are fired.
Quoting BA174 (Reply 21):
So blame everybody else but IB? Sounds familiar.

Have you read a word icaro wrote? It's sad to see that once again the workers are paying the consequences for mistakes caused by management. Those workers do not make any decisions that affect the way the airline runs and yet they are always the ones that have to pay for the mistakes made by incompetence higher up.

Fare structures, marketing, etc, are not set by the mechanic.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 28):
Don't blame WW then; blame your politicians, who you elected, for introducing the new legislation.

People of Spain are blaming them at the moment, check out the protests.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 30):
They have nothing to do with the running of the airline, yet get paid so much???

How would you feel about taking a pay cut or getting fired after a lifetime with a company? Let management cut their salaries first, after all they are responsible for the things going wrong at IB. The people responsible for the direct safety and operation of the airline should not be on McDonalds wages.
 
Icaro
Posts: 218
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:00 am

RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:10 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 26):
At the moment, BA would be more profitable had it not bought bmi. It absorbed €90m of losses from bmi last year.

The thing is that BA is using IAG resources for their own purpose (even if this year means a loss). Therefore IB is helping BA buying its competitors, fleet and LHR slots which will help BA in the future.This money comes from IB. It is their cash reserve which is used to help BA.
The exactly same thing is happening with Vueling. It has costed IB a lot of money to create Clickair and the subsequent price war that made it possible for IB to finally merge Clickair and Vueling and get the control. Those expenses are also responsible of the losses in IB these last years. And now that Vuelings profilt can help IB, it is IAG who is going to buy Vueling for a fraction of the price that it costs. Again BA is going to benefit from an IB investment.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 30):
yet get paid so much???

I tell you again that they agree on a salary cut. They just want a plan for the airline.
Losses don't come only from "high" salaries. They come from opening routes irresponsibly and bleeding money on those. They come from operating a not so efficient fleet that should have been modernized long ago. They come from not investing money in your product for years and letting competition offer much better service. They come from degrading your product to an extent that passegers don't want to fly you cause you offer exactly the same as all low cost but at a higher price. They come from saving money in just the only thing you shouldn´t do, what the passenger get, less crew, less service, less ground staff, less frills.
Employees agree to a salary cut, they just NEED to believe on the people who are running this Chaos. There must be a plan and that plan cannot be just cutting costs. That has been done before and you see it didn´t work.
 
alfie1980
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:25 pm

RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:58 pm

Hi all, first of all I would like to say I am a new member to this forum and I really enjoy reading the different opinions of all the members. I would like to say that I am Spanish and have been a loyal Iberia customer for the last 20 years, I hold an Iberia Plus Gold Card as I fly over 50 segments with them a year. It is really sad to see what is happening, to hear the same speech Mr Walsh gave to BA workforce a couple of years ago. I know it is all very easy to blame Mr Walsh, although Mr Walsh should know that Iberia is no Aer lingus,. it is a much larger airline and a very important player between Europe and Latin America. The people that contributed to Iberia's current bad shape are not the workers but the Iberia management, who seem to be more keen in making of Iberia a subsidiary to BA á la Swissair did to Sabena.
I always hear all this bad remarks on Iberia's poor service, but I must say that I fly with them at least 50 times a year sometimes I am lucky and its in Business class and other times is down the back and the business product in Europe is far better than BA's first of all, the catering is much better, healthier, not those ready meals that they serve on BA, the planes are much cleaner, the cabin interiors are fresh looking.... etc. The cabin crew, well sometimes you get excellent crew and other times not so excellent but not rude, maybe is the fact that their English is not great and its funny but most of my English friends when they hear me talking in Spanish they seem to think that I am arguing but when in fact I am not. lets just say that people may think that the crew are being rude. You also have to realize that if you board a flight between London and Madrid on BA on very little occasion you see Spanish speaking crew.
Iberia is great airline in need of improvement in many areas, is part of the Spanish culture its a moving advertisement of Spain the red and yellow, the sun and the passion.
Ba management are converting IB in just a feeder to BA, why is BA becoming stronger in LATAM ? I thought the idea was that MAD will become the Europe HUB to LATAM and LOndon to US and Asia where BA is a stronger brand.
I really feel sorry for the staff. Last year my father had a heart transplant in Asturias, I was in my office it was 2 PM i called the Iberia ticket line and I was booked on a flight at 5 PM to Madrid and then on to Asturias, the crew could not have been more attentive and supportive, something that I have not experienced on any other airline.
 
Gonzalo
Topic Author
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting Redd (Reply 36):
Those workers do not make any decisions that affect the way the airline runs

Sorry, but that's not true. Maybe they are not making the route planning, or the investment program, or the fleet renewal plan.... but they are making a very important decision every day, whit a BIG effect in the airline results, and that decision is what attitude you have every day doing your job. I accept that is not fair to make generalizations, and that there are probably a percentage of IB workers who tries to do their best, but when you have your planes flying with miserable load factors while every one is filling their planes, even at much higher fares, you need to ask your self "what am I doing wrong"... Everyone says the Latin American market is very very important for IB.... and I can tell you first hand that no one that I know wants to fly with IB.... My wife flew SCL-MAD with IB once.... and never repeated the experience, even when sometimes the LA fares are higher. Service is one of the few things that you can use to make a difference, for a lot of the average passenger who has some flexibility with the schedule, the service is the decision maker, over other aspects like the aircraft type, or the terminal building at destination, or the ETA....

Quoting alfie1980 (Reply 38):
Hi all, first of all I would like to say I am a new member to this forum

Welcome alfie1980 !!!

Quoting alfie1980 (Reply 38):
The cabin crew, well sometimes you get excellent crew and other times not so excellent but not rude, maybe is the fact that their English is not great

According to my wife's experience, and several others who told me basically the same ( all of them Spanish speakers ), the problem is not the language. Is the attitude. Have you ever felt the sensation of, despite having paid for a service, you are treated like if the provider of that service is doing a biiiiig favour to you ? Well, imagine that for +12 hours....

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
Gonzalo
Topic Author
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:21 pm

Update : T4 under police control, with massive display of police officers, and no protesters allowed today.

Meanwhile, the SEPLA ( Pilots Union ), announced they are considering the extension of the strike during the days of the Semana Santa.

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1362498409_289024.html

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
Summa767
Posts: 1753
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting icaro (Reply 37):
The thing is that BA is using IAG resources for their own purpose (even if this year means a loss). Therefore IB is helping BA buying its competitors, fleet and LHR slots which will help BA in the future.This money comes from IB

It sound like you believe what you are writing. Honestly, please do your research before you make such ridiculous statements. The money for BA investment is at the expense of IB?
Look, BA had as big a cash reserve as IB. I know that many people confuse the pension fund hole with cash, but they are totally different things. BA can invest in its own operations *because* it is making money. IB is not! It is using its cash at an alarming rate. It can only live of that for 3 years if it continues the way it is going.
When combined, the cash reserves do give the group as whole a better standing, but it is not to say that one is being bled in order to make the other viable. If they do combined investments under IAG, good for them! The purchase of BMI is not detrimental to IB. That BA can do better as a result does not mean that it has to be at the expense of IB
IAG wants to have all its airlines (BA, IB, BMI and Vueling) to be profitable! What it does not want is for any of them to lose money as alarmingly as Iberia is doing. They are a corporation, it is a business they are running, not a charity!
 
UALWN
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Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:48 pm

I'd like to repeat what icaro wrote above:

Quoting icaro (Reply 18):
They want to be offered early retirements rather that lay offs, which is rather understandable after a whole life at the company and the situation at the country which means that those fired won't be able to get a new job.
The Spanish management team agreed to those in december and later found out that WW wouldn't allow them to offer those conditions and prefer to use the new labour law that allows cheap firings so the company will save more money.

That is all their anti-British sentiment.

So the (Spanish) management of IB reached an agreement with labor, which was then overturned by WW and his team at IAG. And this is the reason for the current "anti-British" (actually, anti-WW and his mostly ex-BA team at IAG) sentiment.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/380
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2565
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RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:56 pm

Because the previous "proposal" was rushed and issued in full knowledge of the fact new legislation would save the company a considerable amount more.

It would be total dereliction of duty for WW to ignore such legislation and put sentiment before the company's very existance.
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
Summa767
Posts: 1753
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:26 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 42):
So the (Spanish) management of IB reached an agreement with labor, which was then overturned by WW and his team at IAG. And this is the reason for the current "anti-British" (actually, anti-WW and his mostly ex-BA team at IAG) sentiment.

In the press release below, IB stated how IAG's board was made up: Board members now consist of six people with Spanish nationality, three Britons, two from the United States, one from Ireland, one from France and one from New Zealand
Twice as many spaniards as Brits on that board and yet I am not surprised that some people make up their own facts to justify blaming IB's troubles on Spain's historical rivals. Lack of rigour is commonplace.

http://grupo.iberia.es/portal/site/g...155130b310VgnVCM20000060fe15acRCRD
 
AR385
Posts: 6742
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:28 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 35):
What I mean is exactly what I wrote. Willy Walsh will win the dispute for the survival of Iberia and for the overall performance of IAG as a whole.
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 35):
Cash at IB is now 808 Million Euros. It doesn't take a mathematician to work out that, whilst IB loses 2 Million Euros a day and whilst the Union plan their four future strikes, that money isn't going to last long.

Retrieving details of the Transformation Plan statement, reveals this:
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 35):
This is a dispute WW must win to preserve any future for Iberia. Once the money runs out and, as the statement says, if the situation arises that Iberia no longer has the resources to fund the required changes in future years, everyone at Iberia can kiss Iberia and their jobs for life adios. Vueling will become the new Iberia and everyone, not just those already planned to go, everyone will be joining the back of the unemployment queue.

I really don´t get where it is exactly that you say WW is winning anything. From this thread and others we´ve come to understand that BA´s decision to form IAG and acquire IB through IAG was precisely because all of the advantages that IB was bringing to the "association" (merger is just a bad word). Namely:

1) A huge airport with no slot restrictions
2) An important network from Europe to Latin America

Vueling may have an airport but it certainly does not have the Latin America network IB has, nor the capability to build it quickly. Be it because of its own constraints or by the lack of authority given by the governments in the region. And that is not going to be a quick process. Furthermore Vueling has no brand recognition beyond Europe. So right then and there the very reason of IAG´s existence is being put into question. Letting IB die is not so convenient, either for BA or IAG, as you seem to think it is. And nobody will "WIN" anything.

It seems WW is hell bent on imposing draconian cuts in pay and in employment to a group that have nothing to loose, in an economy that is in shambles and where loss of employment means certain poverty. He has to understand that it is becoming more costly to continue with this mad restructuring process than to just let IB as is, at least for the time being.

Either his ego has taken over and he is beyond understanding that his brinkmanship tactics are at some point going to be counterproductive or he really wants BA to remain as the sole carrier in IAG. Good luck with that. And since I don´t belive he is stupid, I really think he has decided the cheapest way for IAG out of this maddeningly disfunctional entanglement is to let IB go bankrupt. And of course the Spanish government will come to IB´s help. Spain will never allow itself to loose direct connectivity with "the colonies".

I´m not saying IB does not need to restructure. I´m saying the timing is wrong. And this bullying approach is just unhelpful and is getting IAG NOWHERE.
 
Icaro
Posts: 218
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:00 am

RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:31 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 41):
please do your research before you make such ridiculous statements

Thank you for your kind words. Please check who bought BMI, IAG or BA? Which company is getting the profit of the operation, BA or IB? You can say that both companies benefit as far as they are part or IAG; but the truth is that BA will make a profit while IB only puts the money. And later this will be used to show how well BA performs and how bad IB does.
Same happens with Vueling, IB invested a lot of money in that company just to see how IAG takes the control and the profits away from them, to be part of the group as a whole.
IB didn't need to spend any cash in BMI or buying Vueling. BA did, and as they could not afford it on their own, they made IB spend a lot of money that could be of better use for the company in other fields.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 41):
IB is not! It is using its cash at an alarming rate

Indeed they are using their cash at an alarming rate. Not only are they covering their losses due to the situation of the country, but they are also financing BA investments in Vueling and BMI.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 43):
Because the previous "proposal" was rushed and issued in full knowledge of the fact new legislation would save the company a considerable amount more.

It would be total dereliction of duty for WW to ignore such legislation and put sentiment before the company's very existance.

When that offer was made the new legislation was already in effect. It was only a tactic to gain some time and avoid strikes during Christmas.
It is not a question of sentiment over sense, it is a question of ethics which WW doesn´t seem to know about.
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:31 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 43):

You do understand we are talking about human lives here, right? The Spanish want to give them early retirements rather than to fire them. There is a big difference between the two especially for people over 45.

Let's not lose our humanity here.
 
Summa767
Posts: 1753
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:58 pm

Quoting icaro (Reply 46):
Indeed they are using their cash at an alarming rate. Not only are they covering their losses due to the situation of the country, but they are also financing BA investments in Vueling and BMI.

Look, investments are one thing and operations are another. If you want to think that the investments that IAG are doing are only benefiting BA, you are entitled to your opinion of which I am sure you are convinced. I, on the other hand remain of the view that such beliefs are just complexes where foreigners are blamed in the first instance.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 47):
ou do understand we are talking about human lives here, right? The Spanish want to give them early retirements rather than to fire them. There is a big difference between the two especially for people over 45.

Let's not lose our humanity here.

The Spanish situation is terrible. The number of unemployed is absolutely horrifying, and more so for the young.
And yet, companies have to be viable. In order to provide employment in the medium and long term, restructuring has to happen now.
I am not privy to the details of the negotiation between IB and the unions, but a newspaper reports that the latest offer from the company is that 3100 jobs would have to go (down 4500 from the original proposal), and that the compensation would be under conditions that preceed newer laws and so employees would have a better compensation package than current laws actually allow . It also contemplates early retirements, though this would not be a main route. Salary cuts are also required.
The note below is from the beginning of February, and in it, IB says that if unions accept that offer, IAG would not object it.
I can only hope that Ib and unions can go back to the negotiation table again, and try to come to some sort of accord that can allow IB to sort itself out and gear itself up for a viable operation going forward. Mentality of some employees will have to change too, hopefully towards an attitude where passengers are seen as clients more than as a nuisance.

http://www.larazon.es/detalle_normal...se-rompe-y-habra-huel#.UTZX_LTaaCQ

[



[Edited 2013-03-05 13:12:59]
 
Icaro
Posts: 218
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:00 am

RE: MAD T4 Taken By IB Workers, Chaos Expected

Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:09 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 48):
Quoting summa767 (Reply 48):
but a newspaper reports that the latest offer from the company is that 3100 jobs would have to go (down 4500 from the original proposal), and that the compensation would be under conditions that preceed newer laws and so employees would have a better compensation package than current laws actually allow . It also contemplates early retirements, though this would not be a main route. Salary cuts are also required.

Lay offs are 3.800, compensation under new labour laws. No early retirements. 12% salary cuts for ground staff and around 30% for cabin crew and pilots.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 41):
Honestly, please do your research before you make such ridiculous statements

Please...