G500
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Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:44 pm

BA and Virgin call LHR a hub... AA and UA call LAX a hub

Of the 5 airlines on LAX-LHR, it seems like Air New Zealand is the most vulnerable, now BA putting the A380 on the route cannot be good news for them

How is Air New Zealand doing on LAX-LHR load wise?? or are they on the route just for the tech-stop?
 
shamrock321
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:54 pm

I've always heard of NZ having decent loads but can't confirm this.

They obviously need to pick customers up for the LAX-LHR leg but I imagine fill quite a few of these seats with passengers continuing from AKL.

LAX is a *A hub, would be interesting to see how much Traffic they get from UA.
 
qf002
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:53 pm

Dropping AKL-HKG-LHR will help bolster loads through LAX, and the move from 744s to 77Ws has reduced capacity somewhat. I doubt they're having too many issues.
 
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mariner
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:07 am

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
How is Air New Zealand doing on LAX-LHR load wise?? or are they on the route just for the tech-stop?

I know that up-the-front LAX-LHR-LAX is hugely popular with the second tier Hollywood crowd. It's great value for money for those who earn good money, but are neither very famous nor very rich.

The studios use it too (and Virgin Atlantic) for actors and crew who negotiate up-the-front treatment, but aren't "big enough" to get first class in their contract.

mariner

[Edited 2013-03-05 16:12:48]
aeternum nauta
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:28 am

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
How is Air New Zealand doing on LAX-LHR load wise?? or are they on the route just for the tech-stop?

Don't forget that NZ has about 47-years of "working" the travel industry in California. No doubt they have built up some very good relationships.
 
koruman
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:34 am

It seems to me that it is doing fine.

Fare levels per kilometer are double those on the slightly longer Auckland-Shanghai flight in Economy and Premium Economy and triple in Business Premier.

Meanwhile loads are good in all three classes. I fly often on the flight, and my observations are:

1) There is rarely an empty seat in Business Premier
2) There is rarely an award seat available in Business Premier.
3) There is rarely any ability for top-tier frequent flyers to upgrade from Premium Economy to Business Premier with frequent flyer points - my wife and daughter have already been knocked back for January 2014.

The problem with the OP's hypothesis is that you have to understand the comparatively high yields on this sector compared with any of Air New Zealand's Asian routes. And that there is a full station at LHR, so the LHR-LAX sector does not have the economics of a one-stop flight, but rather each of the two sectors is effectively from an outstation to a hub.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 2):
Dropping AKL-HKG-LHR will help bolster loads through LAX, and the move from 744s to 77Ws has reduced capacity somewhat. I doubt they're having too many issues.

It bolsters loads, but it massacres yields.

Fare levels have traditionally been calculated by the following formula in each class:

Auckland-Los Angeles = $ x
London-Los Angeles = $ x
Auckland-London (via LAX or HKG) = $1.2 x

The whole point of opening AKL-HKG-LHR was to remove through passengers AKL-LHR from the flight transiting LAX so that the two sectors AKL-LAX and LAX-LHR could be sold separately.

Unfortunately, I'm typical of many passengers who choose to take a stopover in North America so I messed up those plans.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:36 am

Is Star partner UA able to code share on this flight?
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:47 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 6):
Is Star partner UA able to code share on this flight?

They don't appear to . Rather NZ has a code share on the UA evening flight
 
koruman
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:07 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 6):
Is Star partner UA able to code share on this flight?
Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 7):
They don't appear to . Rather NZ has a code share on the UA evening flight

In fact, Air NZ codeshares with Virgin Atlantic on the San Francisco to London route, but extending that to LAX-LHR and exiting own-metal operations has been highly unattractive because of the Kamikaze long-haul yields that Air NZ gets throughout the rest of its long-haul network except for services to and through North America.

Air NZ conducted a long-haul review in 2012, but then buried the findings.

It's a matter of public record that their recently-departed CEO had had a catastrophic business career in London himself at ITV Digital and the rumours I've heard from multiple Air NZ employees are that he had a strong aversion to UK services and had commissioned the review in the expectation that it would recommend exiting 1-stop operations completely, with codeshares to service London, and instead would refocus long-haul operations on China and Japan.

But the statistics apparently completely contradicted such a model, with yields to (or more precisely from) both China and Japan well entrenched at basket-case levels consistent with the leisure nature of the routes, and with the services to LAX, SFO, HNL and YVR from Auckland and to LAX from LHR being the five highest yielding sectors on the network. Beijing was quietly exited as a second Chinese destination and HKG-LHR was closed.

It's all about the network. From most European nations, flights to China and Japan are heavily dependent upon business traffic, but all of Air New Zealand's Asian routes are almost entirely Economy class inbound traffic. The inbound traffic is package tourists on deeply discounted fares and the outbound traffic to China is almost entirely VFR of Chinese students going to visit their family and friends. It's extraordinary watching the ethnic mix when flights depart AKL for PVG: there are virtually no Pakeha (white NZ), Maori or Pacific islander passengers at all.

Going back several years, HKG-LHR was narrowly preferred to SFO-LHR as an extension of an existing flight from Auckland. I think that both were wrong, and that the second daily AKL-LAX service should have been extended 3 times weekly to Manchester, with a Virgin Atlantic codeshare.

[Edited 2013-03-05 18:14:27]
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:42 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 8):
I think that both were wrong, and that the second daily AKL-LAX service should have been extended 3 times weekly to Manchester, with a Virgin Atlantic codeshare.

I too have been puzzled why no carrier is not running a LAX-MAN service. While what EK are achieving out of MAN/BHX to DXB is sort of like comparing apples and oranges, to me it indicates that there has to be substancial potential from the Midlands to LAX. I have a relie who flies BHX-DBX- SYD- AKL at least once a year on a highyield fare. She could be persuaded to fly MAN-LAX-AKL but she will not travel to LHR to commence her travel.

Perhaps this is one of the planned expansion routes.
 
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:39 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 8):
Air NZ conducted a long-haul review in 2012, but then buried the findings.

They'd be fools to release an internal review which could be of value to the competition.

Quoting koruman (Reply 8):
It's a matter of public record that their recently-departed CEO had had a catastrophic business career in London himself at ITV Digital and the rumours I've heard from multiple Air NZ employees are that he had a strong aversion to UK services and had commissioned the review in the expectation that it would recommend exiting 1-stop operations completely, with codeshares to service London, and instead would refocus long-haul operations on China and Japan.

He left the airline in good shape financially, consistently profitable even through the GFC, and as the recently reported increased profit - for the last months of his tenure - shows.

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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:06 am

NZ has been flying the route longer than any carrier other than BA. They celebrated 30 years on the LAX LHR route last year. There is a lot of O/D on the route which helps fill seats not carrying through traffic from AKL. LHR is a big market. VS has basically no connecting traffic yet still survives long haul only, so NZ carries more connecting traffic from AKL And their pacific islands than VS.
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koruman
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:32 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 9):
I too have been puzzled why no carrier is not running a LAX-MAN service

Manchester of course serves a population of around 10 million between Manchester / Liverpool / Leeds / Sheffield and the northern end of the East and West Midlands.

It's a fact of life that British corporate life is dominated by a London / Home Counties elite, who make rather lazy assumptions about the viability of long-haul services from Manchester, with the result that Emirates, Etihad, American Airlines and United have cornered perfectly viable markets which BA or Virgin Atlantic could have had. Ultimately BMI moved their A330s from Manchester to Heathrow with a predictably bad outcome.

MAN-LAX would obviously work at school holiday times at higher frequency than the rest of the year, but should be good for 4x weekly 788 / 763 services in holiday periods and 2 x weekly the rest of the year. As I've written before, a creative marketing department could bulk-sell Business Class seats to professional footballers in the north of England, who would be delighted to pack off their wives to a house in LA for weeks on end to allow them to misbehave with their team-mates.

Manchester United, Manchester City and Liverpool in particular find that their Latin American superstars tire of the damp north, as do Wigan, Everton, Bolton and Blackburn's less exalted Latin Americans. And many better foreign players head for Chelsea, Spurs or Arsenal simply because their spouses won't relocate to the north of England. An airline with vision could package flights and rental of a luxury home at Malibu or in Beverly Hills to ensure that Business Class sales are optimised - and of course Air NZ's 77E has only 26 Business Class seats to sell.

So there is lots of scope to sell even premium seats on a MAN-LAX sector - for Air NZ.

Virgin Atlantic would be largely restricted to O D, which is insufficient for this route. But Air NZ would combine:

1) NW England to California O D
2) NW England to Hawaii
3) NW England to New Zealand 1-stop.
4) NW England to Australia with the option of Pacific island stopovers (RAR, PPT, NAN)
 
G500
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:31 am

This is all very encouraging, i'm definitely a fan of this route for Air New Zealand... I'm pulling for them
 
visualapproach
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:22 am

Had one of my best ever transatlantic flights with ANZ at the end of last year on LAX-LHR, hope it's here to stay.
 
flaps30
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:36 pm

Quoting visualapproach (Reply 14):

Had one of my best ever transatlantic flights with ANZ at the end of last year on LAX-LHR, hope it's here to stay.

I agree 100%. I have taken the LAX-LHR flight 4 times over the past few years on both the 744 and 77W and each flight was great. The loads were 100% each time and you cant beat the fares. The great service is icing on the cake. They proved they can match the big boys on this route and even do better.
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skipness1E
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 12):
It's a fact of life that British corporate life is dominated by a London / Home Counties elite, who make rather lazy assumptions about the viability of long-haul services from Manchester, with the result that Emirates, Etihad, American Airlines and United have cornered perfectly viable markets which BA or Virgin Atlantic could have had. Ultimately BMI moved their A330s from Manchester to Heathrow with a predictably bad outcome.

Spare us the politics, MAN-LAX was tried by BA on the B763, it failed, badly, and in a free market, no one has seen fit to step in and pick it up. If your assumptions were true, American would never have seen an opportunity on MAN-ORD all those years ago. That remains as the market will support it, the market will not and continues not to have enough viability for MAN-LAX.
On the subject of BMI, they were bought for LHR, put into MAN at five to midnight with a business plan cobbled together at the last minute. MAN-IAD was so succesful it was on a leased B757 within three years and the Carribbean routes never gave enough of a return on the investment. Indeed they were a Virgin Holidays supported operation, and VS has not stepped into many of these markets and just kicked MAN-LAS into seasonality. Again, that's a telling indicator of the market opportunity. That left MAN-ORD which like BA's MAN-JFK was a stand alone operation that HQ did not like one bit. All of MAN's US legacy long haul has one thing in common, it feeds a hub. There is no hub to speak of at LAX, some good connections but it lacks hub status for anyone.

You speak of perfectly viable markets BA or VS could have had? That myth really needs to be put to bed. AA, DL, US and CO/UA offered a myriad of connections over their own hubs, something that only now VS and BA can do with alliance and partner codeshares. It's just easier having one airline and connection, that's what's seamless about MAN-US.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:36 pm

Yes NZ has been in the market quite some time. They do have a bit of a local following being known for good service at lower rates then the competition, especially in premium classes. (not sure that is a good thing however).


As I have mentioned many times, frankly I don't however see the need for the flight any longer as the industry moves away from costly multi-leg segments half way around the world freeing the equipment up for NZ to expand further around its natural strength in the Pacific basin.

If I were NZ I'd look at expanding a JV with United and simply funnel LHR pax directly via SFO/LAX onto UA flights. As bonus they could also connect to UA nonstops to FRA and CDG as well via the West Coast. Even maybe do something similar with AC via YVR.

Also with the NZ moving terminals at LAX early 2014, the current abbreviated transit process for the London passengers will end as all will be required to formally clear and enter the US. Only good news I suppose is they will have a new terminal to explore and a new Star alliance lounge for the premium ones to hang out in.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 9):
I too have been puzzled why no carrier is not running a LAX-MAN service.

Oh they have tried -- atleast 4 operators in the last 20-years.

About the only thing that somewhat stuck was summer British Airtours/Caledonian charters - carrying British tracksuit crowds.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 16):
Spare us the politics, MAN-LAX was tried by BA on the B763, it failed, badly, and in a free market, no one has seen fit to step in and pick it up.

   I well recall many 767s going out with mere 50 passengers.


Anyhow for those that espouse such service - its a rather small'ish market from LAX - mere 114 average daily passengers.
LAX has many more larger O&D international markets that lack nonstop service including Brussels, Stockholm, Dublin, Osaka, Barcelona, Milan, Copenhagen, Buenos Aires, Jakarta, Ho Chi Minh, etc... In other words Manchester is quite far down the list.
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:45 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 9):
I too have been puzzled why no carrier is not running a LAX-MAN service.

If NZ would fly CHC-LAX-MAN thrice weekly and allow AKL-MAN and CHC-LHR passengers connect in LAX something interesting may happen.
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skipness1E
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:12 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 18):
If NZ would fly CHC-LAX-MAN thrice weekly and allow AKL-MAN and CHC-LHR passengers connect in LAX something interesting may happen.

If they can't make AKL-HKG-LHR work how is a less than daily MAN ever going to succeed? By interesting you mean "loss making"?
 
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:52 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 19):
If they can't make AKL-HKG-LHR work how is a less than daily MAN ever going to succeed? By interesting you mean "loss making"?

AKL-HKG-LHR is a flight between AKL and LHR via HKG. Wasn't NZ poor loads between HKG and LHR which pulled the plug on that route?
MAN is a different market than LON, that stop in LAX can give some traffic between California and MAN; given the kind of demand LAX-MAN has, thrice weekly is more than enough to start.
Would passengers wanting to fly between AKL and MAN (or vicinity) like to connect at LHR?
Would passengers in U.S. or England wishing to visit N.Z. South Island prefer to fly directly to CHC instead of connecting somewhere?
New Zealand - MAN thrice weekly rotation takes one wide body, if NZ wants to try something interesting, that's linking CHC with LAX/LHR and AKL/CHC with MAN, flying a wide body CHC-LAX-MAN 3 times a week timed to connect @ LAX w/ AKL-LHR north and south-bound flights.
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Viscount724
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:34 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 11):
NZ has been flying the route longer than any carrier other than BA. They celebrated 30 years on the LAX LHR route last year.

If you count all current and past carriers, I think TWA operated LAX-LHR nonstop longer than any other carrier, starting with the L-1649A Starliner in 1957 until they sold their LHR routes to AA in 1991.
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:47 pm

Sorry but I just don't see where the premium traffic to support MAN-LAX is.

There is a TV/radio production industry in Manchester (BBC Salford, ITV Studios) but it is very domestically focused. Compare that to the creative industries in London, arguably the world's media capital, and it is tiny (Terminal 5 the morning after the BAFTA awards ceremony is a celebrity spotters paradise).

[Edited 2013-03-06 13:59:55]
 
LAXintl
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:22 pm

Anyhow - in one of the New Zealand threads a bit back did someone not post that travel between the UK and NZ was declining?

If so why chase after a shrinking market. Take your planes and fly them to where there is growth and future opportunities.
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mariner
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:47 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
Anyhow - in one of the New Zealand threads a bit back did someone not post that travel between the UK and NZ was declining?

Yes. Over five years, UK (to NZ) arrival numbers have fallen.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...08492/Chinese-visitor-numbers-jump

Statistics NZ population statistics manager Andrea Blackburn said arrivals from China have grown dramatically in the last 20 years, from only 3,300 in 1992.

“In contrast, visitor numbers from the United Kingdom have been declining for the last five years, with a 17 percent decrease in the current year bringing the number down to 191,400."


It's still quite high. The UK is still third in visitor arrivals to NZ and because of the high number of permanent UK immigrants to NZ there is considerable VFR between the two countries and still strong business links.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
If so why chase after a shrinking market. Take your planes and fly them to where there is growth and future opportunities.

Maybe because it's making money?

For socio-historical reasons (see above) there will likely always be traffic between the UK and NZ - the only question is how much. And despite the disinclination to one-stop routes, LAX-LHR survived the cull of unprofitable international service.

mariner

[Edited 2013-03-06 14:50:02]
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LAXintl
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:50 pm

I just looked up the stats - both inbound and outbound travel is down between the UK and NZ.

UK visitors to NZ were down whopping 17.7% in 2012 (they have been declining for 5-years running now)
While outbound NZ visitors to UK was also down 14% (has been declining for last 3 of 5 years)

Not a very promising market to add capacity in.
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mariner
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:56 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
I just looked up the stats - both inbound and outbound travel is down between the UK and NZ.

UK visitors to NZ were down whopping 17.7% in 2012 (they have been declining for 5-years running now)
While outbound NZ visitors to UK was also down 14% (has been declining for last 3 of 5 years)

Not a very promising market to add capacity in.

Yes, I looked over the stats too, before I posted them, and, as I pointed out, the UK is still third in visitor arrivals.

What it suggests - to me - is that two routes to the UK (via HKG and LAX) were not a good idea, reflecting that fall in numbers. One route (via LAX) may be.

Nothing is carve in granite and if it were not making money I think it would have gone - and if it starts losing money, it may yet go. But if it is making money I don't see your problem with it.

mariner

[Edited 2013-03-06 15:01:15]
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FI642
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:10 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 13):

This is all very encouraging, i'm definitely a fan of this route for Air New Zealand... I'm pulling for them


I would certainly rather fly ANZ than anyone else from LAX to LHR.
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LAXintl
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:33 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
For socio-historical reasons (see above) there will likely always be traffic between the UK and NZ - the only question is how much. And despite the disinclination to one-stop routes, LAX-LHR survived the cull of unprofitable international service.


Sorry, I was making reference to the MAN route idea which came up, not LHR with my comment as to why chase a declining market. Seems to me trying to open up a thin MAN route in face of continued market declines might not be the best use of limited resources.

And for LHR itself, I guess time will tell how UK demand stacks up as other nations (eg China) grown in stature for NZ travel and commerce.
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aerokiwi
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:40 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
If I were NZ I'd look at expanding a JV with United and simply funnel LHR pax directly via SFO/LAX onto UA flights.

Dear god no! What makes you think NZ-UK passengers would tolerate the pathetic iUA nflight experience compared to NZ? You'd pretty much ensure the end of the AKL-LAX route as passengers opt for actual inflight service via Asia.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
As bonus they could also connect to UA nonstops to FRA and CDG as well via the West Coast.

I don't think anyone genuinely thinks transferring from NZ to UA would be a "bonus".

You seem to have a real bugbear about NZ's presence on this route. As far as I know, it's profitable and contributes to the systemwide performance. What's the problem here?
 
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:54 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 29):
Dear god no! What makes you think NZ-UK passengers would tolerate the pathetic iUA nflight experience compared to NZ? You'd pretty much ensure the end of the AKL-LAX route as passengers opt for actual inflight service via Asia.

I agree 100%

If NZ were to drop LHR (and I don't think that they will) it will be in favour of SQ or CX, and certainly not UA.

If not they are simply asking for people to fly SQ or EK.
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LAXintl
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:57 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 29):
You seem to have a real bugbear about NZ's presence on this route. As far as I know, it's profitable and contributes to the systemwide performance. What's the problem here?

Actually I quite like NZ, and have flown them many times. I am also close to several in NZ US management team, so nothing again the airline or persons employed. (actually several share my view below as well)

But I'm also big fan of metal neutral JV's, and ability to leverage partners to produce the lowest seat cost.

With such high cost inputs to run an enterprise in this industry, I don't believe airlines need to carry on with historic flag waving exercises and serve every corner of the world, but can instead very well share cost and revenues via JVs and making best use of ones partner networks.

In regards to NZ specifically, I feel its natural strength and future lies in the Pacific basin (eg booming Asia), not multi-stop segement halfway around the world.
For example just freeing equipment off a LAX-LHR segment would provide NZ free aircraft to possibly launch other Pacific basin routes or beef up existing city pairs.
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skipness1E
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:05 am

If it's 1993 on AKL-LAX-LHR, how long were NZ at Gatters. I shot an ANZ B742 at LGW in Feb 93. Indeed BA shared LAX-LHR with NZ as DC10s were LHR regulars before NZ got their own flights and had to use LGW.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:33 am

Well just checked my email, and there was a message saying that the LAX-LHR sector is performing well above what was planned, so it must mean we're here to stay for a while yet.

Even though visitor numbers have dropped from the UK, I think many use NZ's service as 2 seperate flights rather than a 1 stop service
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:12 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 31):
For example just freeing equipment off a LAX-LHR segment would provide NZ free aircraft to possibly launch other Pacific basin routes or beef up existing city pairs.

LAX-LHR-LAX is using one and a bit 77W a day. Not a great demand on resources. Just looking at NZ1 and NZ2 on data.flight24. They crossed over each other at about Salt Lake City less than an hour ago. So they are doing about a 27-hour rotation.

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 33):
Well just checked my email, and there was a message saying that the LAX-LHR sector is performing well above what was planned, so it must mean we're here to stay for a while yet.

As I said earlier NZ has worked this market for many years and has built good relationships in the travel industry.
 
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:48 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 32):
how long were NZ at Gatters

NZ moved from LGW to LHR in November 1994.
 
ZKOJH
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:18 am

The LHR-LAX is one of the key markets to them and has been for the last 30 years, although I have not taken this route in a while I would still fly NZ over anyone else, and think we need need to put the MAN-LAX to sleep I emailed Rob in Dec before he left about this, his response was;

'' we have had a good look at Manchester. The challenge for us is the through traffic – we are at a material disadvantage flying a route where we don’t have a home market at one end of the route. The home market carriers at either end of the Hong Kong – UK market have a material advantage over Air New Zealand in terms of feed, contracted Corporate customers and loyalty schemes and the through traffic to New Zealand is far lower value than the sector traffic … with the whole situation further exacerbated by the APD tax grab and current oil-prices.''

unless this changes under Chris then think it says it all..
Vietnam time..
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:14 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 5):
my wife and daughter have already been knocked back for January 2014

Isn't that good for NZ, shows they can sell all the pointy end seats on the route.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
they have been declining for 5-years running now
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
has been declining for last 3 of 5 years

Which nicely dovetails into the start of the gfc, which hit both the UK and NZ fairly hard, neither country has fully recovered. When times improve I'm sure the numbers travelling in either direction will also improve.
 
Gasman
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:01 am

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
BA putting the A380 on the route cannot be good news for them

Agreed. An A380 vs a 10-abreast 77W is a no brainer. The only thing that would keep me on NZ for the LAX-LHR leg would be the status points.
 
koruman
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:01 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 31):
In regards to NZ specifically, I feel its natural strength and future lies in the Pacific basin (eg booming Asia), not multi-stop segement halfway around the world.

You keep beating this drum, but it is not remotely backed up be tolerable yields.

Air New Zealand's "booming" routes to China may have massive passenger growth, but the yields are absolutely catastrophic, with published fare levels anything from half to one third of the slightly shorter LHR-LAX sector. The flights ostensibly continue to operate almost as a loss-leader to build the market, but I am far from alone in wondering where the money paid to FASCO to crew these flights actually ends up.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 31):
But I'm also big fan of metal neutral JV's, and ability to leverage partners to produce the lowest seat cost.

Cost is one half of the equation. The other relates to demand and wealth in the respective markets.

New Zealand is one of the poorest countries in the OECD, with a tiny population. And inbound tourism from Asia is of the deeply discounted package tour variety, a sort of long-haul Ryanair. Seriously, read my earlier comment about the demographics of the departure lounge at Auckland for the Shanghai flights. It would be a highly unusual flight to have even 20 white New Zealanders on it - outbound demand is zero apart from students and VFR - and inbound demand is almost exclusively in the Economy cabin.

The value of LHR-LAX is:

1) It links two huge wealthy markets, which New Zealand's remote location and relative poverty means cannot happen on 1-stop routes from Auckland to Asia.
2) The number of time-zones traversed means that single-daily operation is plenty.
3) British people consider neither New Zealand nor its airline to be truly "foreign". Air New Zealand is highly regarded as a blue-chip carrier in the UK.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
Anyhow - in one of the New Zealand threads a bit back did someone not post that travel between the UK and NZ was declining?

If so why chase after a shrinking market. Take your planes and fly them to where there is growth and future opportunities.

But how much of that "declining" market is Air New Zealand's anyway? Their London-centricity means that most passengers from northern England to New Zealand fly Emirates or Singapore Airlines.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
Anyhow for those that espouse such service - its a rather small'ish market from LAX - mere 114 average daily passengers.

Isn't that plenty?

You are saying that there are 800 passengers per week flying Manchester-Los Angeles. We already know that each day there are around 100 passengers flying Emirates from Manchester to New Zealand, and then you can add on the Singapore Airlines passengers and those routing via LHR on Air New Zealand.

Nobody is suggesting operating a 77W from Manchester to Los Angeles daily. The suggestion is a 250 seat aircraft 2-4 times weekly.

[Edited 2013-03-07 01:01:38]
 
koruman
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:09 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 36):
'' we have had a good look at Manchester. The challenge for us is the through traffic – we are at a material disadvantage flying a route where we don’t have a home market at one end of the route. The home market carriers at either end of the Hong Kong – UK market have a material advantage over Air New Zealand in terms of feed, contracted Corporate customers and loyalty schemes and the through traffic to New Zealand is far lower value than the sector traffic … with the whole situation further exacerbated by the APD tax grab and current oil-prices.''

unless this changes under Chris then think it says it all..

I don't.

Rob Fyfe's answer clearly relates to the viability of Manchester-Hong Kong-Auckland, not Manchester-Los Angeles-Auckland.

And most of us said similar things when HKG-LHR was opened: that Air NZ could never compete with Cathay Pacific for point-to-point sector traffic and had no hope of making it work unless it obtained the rights and aircraft to use Hong Kong as a scissor-hub from multiple UK/Ireland ports to BNE/MEL/CNS/SYD/AKL/WLG/CHC. When they decided not to do that they sealed the fate of the HKG-LHR sector.

The whole point of Manchester is that it serves a market of around 10 million, and that the whole Wilmslow/Prestbury/Bowdon/Hale Barns stockbroker belt is very similar to the southeast of England.

And there is major problem attached to Virgin Atlantic or British Airways operating MAN-LAX, in that their flights would only service the US West Coast and at a pinch Hawaii, whereas Air New Zealand could combine the whole of that market with the Pacific Islands, New Zealand and even Australia.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:57 am

I'm sorry they looked at serving HKG from MULTIPLE ports in the British Isles? Perhaps they felt that fatally fragmenting their main existing UK operation wasn't clever. How many peeps fly GLA-NZ per day? MAN is also very much like that other airport amongst stockbrokers, Gatwick. How's long haul at LGW? Clue, latest B767 for BW had been registered 9Y-LHR..... I can't honestly believe that multiple wide bodies feeding at Honk Kong, a Oneworld hub, was ever remotely viable. NZ001 needs feed enough of it's own at LHR without the significant expense of market fragmentation.
 
koruman
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:05 am

Skipness1E, the HKG Koruhub was intended to aggregate feed for all major Australian ports, not just New Zealand.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:14 pm

Since LHR for NZ, be from AKL or LAX seems to be mostly O/D.
Other than the lower operational costs at LGW and the selling-value of NZ LHR slots, What - if any - are the favourable points for NZ returning to LGW?
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LAXintl
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:44 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 39):
You keep beating this drum,

Yes I do, and I will continue so. I also know a few within NZ that agree with me 100%.
Give it time. Things change, the markets changes, NZ as a country and NZ as an airline is changing.

Quoting koruman (Reply 39):
Isn't that plenty?

Hardly - a nonstop would likely at best capture 50% of that traffic, so maybe 50 pax a flight. (which ironically is about what BA got many days on its attempted LAX-MAN nonstop)
You will always have folks chose alternate means whether for FF benefits, fares, flight times, or general preference for other airlines.

As mentioned prior, LA has many other larger longhaul markets that don't enjoy nonstop service today. Manchester is rather low on the list, and certainly not one that has some magical link to LA that would vault the importance to have air service link.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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mariner
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:41 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 44):
Yes I do, and I will continue so. I also know a few within NZ that agree with me 100%.
Give it time. Things change, the markets changes, NZ as a country and NZ as an airline is changing.

That part is certainly true and to an extent the debate about MAN reflects some divisions within the country itself. There are those who resist the changing face of NZ - the new sources of immigration - and advocate a return to the more traditional markets.

It's well within my lifetime that the UK was called "home" and Kiwis going there were "going home." But the UK isn't "home" anymore, the socio-economics are changing and those changes obviously affect the national carrier.

At some point, the airline is going to have to address South America - I think it missed the bus there some time ago - and eventually, beyond that Central America. New Zealand's trade with Mexico is really quite strong - more than three times stronger Chile - and the NZ government is trying to foster better air links.

This doesn't mean the "old" NZ is dying. I think that there will be a route to London - AKL-LAX-LHR? - as long as I'm around and more - but by definition, the airline must embrace the new markets. I don't know if a non-stop to India is yet viable, but I'm sure a one-stop would be embraced by the surging Indian population in NZ.

Presently, for that Kiwi/Indian population, the airline of choice is Singapore - one stop to just about anywhere in India - and I think that needs to change.

mariner

[Edited 2013-03-07 10:43:13]
aeternum nauta
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:19 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
At some point, the airline is going to have to address South America - I think it missed the bus there some time ago - and eventually, beyond that Central America. New Zealand's trade with Mexico is really quite strong - more than three times stronger Chile - and the NZ government is trying to foster better air links.

Now that both Air New Zealand and AV/TA plus CM are in Star Alliance, NZ should definitely study a transpacific route between AKL and most likely AV/TA LIM hub.
NZ B767-300ER used on the RAR-LAX route may have the range and ETOPS to fly RAR-LIM non-stop,

In the subject of LAX-LHR, are there any LAX connecting passengers flying NZ between RAR and LHR?
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:05 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 46):
NZ B767-300ER used on the RAR-LAX route may have the range and ETOPS to fly RAR-LIM non-stop,

The fact that IPC is not far off any track ( generally about 100nm) from RAR/PPT -LIM/GRU/SCL is very helpful.
 
deconz
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:48 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 44):
Hardly - a nonstop would likely at best capture 50% of that traffic, so maybe 50 pax a flight. (which ironically is about what BA got many days on its attempted LAX-MAN nonstop)

but koruman wasn't suggesting a daily service - rather 2-4 per week!
 
deconz
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RE: Is Air New Zealand Holding Its Own On LAX-LHR?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:52 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 46):
In the subject of LAX-LHR, are there any LAX connecting passengers flying NZ between RAR and LHR?

the RAR/LAX/RAR services are timed to allow connections to/from LHR. RAR is now the only Pacific stop possible on NZ metal, since NAN is only served via codeshare op by FJ and PPT via codeshare op by TN.