Gonzalo
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:10 pm

This serious incident became known through rumours that surfaced on Weibo ( sort of Chinese Twitter ) at the end of February and got confirmed by reports of China's Civil Aviation Authority .on Mar 5th 2013.

A CZ 737-800 flying from Guangzhou to Wuhan was on a NDB/DME approach (minimum 1200 meters visibility required, MDA 430 feet) to Wuhan's runway 04, with a visibility of 1500 meters occasionally reduced to 1200 meters, in light rain and light fog and cloud ceiling 690 feet. They descended with the captain being pilot flying, and when descending through 1000 feet the captain disengaged the autopilot. The aircraft reached 430 feet without any visual contact with the runway, the first officer then called for level flight, reset the flight director and selected the go-around altitude into the master control panel. The captain continued despite no approach lights were seen and the aircraft appeared low. A ground proximity warning "too low" activated, the first officer called for a go-around without response from the captain, another GPWS "too low" sounded, and ( finally ) this time the captain called "go-around" and initiated the go-around.
However unusual sounds occurred while the aircraft was still rotating up and it became obvious that the aircraft had hit something, although the aircraft was able to climb out to safety. The crew subsequently decided to divert to Hefei.

After landing some inspections were performed, the aircraft sustained damage (penetrations and dents) to the left main gear door and left main gear gear proximity cover actuator, the left main gear outboard tyre received cuts. In the airport, the antennas of the southern NDB "D" and inner marker were damaged, two other antenna pillars were damaged as well.

It seems fair to say that the persistence of the F/O pointing out a Go Around was necessary, and the GPWS, made the difference this time....

http://avherald.com/h?article=45eb3067&opt=0

Rgds.
G.
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migair54
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:27 pm

I hope this captain is suspend and fire as soon as possible, this kind of behavior is absolutely unacceptable in a pilot and sadly this is the cause of some crashes in the past times. They were 1 second away from a crash...

A Go Around call by any pilot is a direct order even if it´s the F/O (CRM basics), Do a Go Around and don´t think or ask why... do it when you are safe back in the hold, and imagine they even had a Too low, I think when the F/O called for G/A and captain didn´t perform he should have pressed the TOGA button and don´t wait, Specially in an NDB APP, That´s sooooooooo non precision approach, you might be over the tower trying to find the runway...
 
PHX787
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
This serious incident became known through rumours that surfaced on Weibo ( sort of Chinese Twitter ) at the end of February and got confirmed by reports of China's Civil Aviation Authority .on Mar 5th 2013.

Yeah I'm really shocked that this close call came to light after Weibo-ers were talking about it. Weibo may be "chinese twitter," implying that the state censors control it, but that sure as hell doesn't stop all of the gossip going around.  

Either way this is a very serious incident and for CAAK to cover it up until they were forced to confirm is something that has me greatly concerned.
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tb727
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:13 pm

Nice job by the FO, a situation that comes up in job interviews and you are asked how to handle it. I am however impressed he actually hit the NDB antenna, that was pretty precise for a non-precision approach.
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seven3seven
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:52 pm

To me the most shocking part is an airline shooting an NDB approach in this day and age
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traindoc
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:09 pm

Don't forget that this is China. The Captain is always right and should not be second guessed! The person who may be punished would be the F/O for questioning his senior. Yes, this is the way it is in much of the non Western world!

Great job by the F/O!!   
 
shufflemoomin
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:09 pm

I'm confused as to why the FO didn't take control after the Captain ignored the first call for a go-around?
 
BMI727
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:12 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 3):
Nice job by the FO, a situation that comes up in job interviews and you are asked how to handle it.

Indeed, and these were Asian pilots who come from a culture that tends to always respect authority and not rock the boat.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
PHX787
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 6):
I'm confused as to why the FO didn't take control after the Captain ignored the first call for a go-around?

I think it's because of this:

Quoting traindoc (Reply 5):
Don't forget that this is China. The Captain is always right and should not be second guessed! The person who may be punished would be the F/O for questioning his senior. Yes, this is the way it is in much of the non Western world!

That F/O, should he be punished for what he did, will probably land a job somewhere in the states. We need safety-minded pilots like him  
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777
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:44 pm

This is the second time I read about the F/O claiming a Go Around and the Captain ignoring it.

Fortunately, the CZ episode didn't become a tragedy.


23 years ago they were not so lucky As the Captain reacted dramatically too late to the Go Around declared by the F/O
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19901114-0
 
Gonzalo
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
these were Asian pilots who come from a culture that tends to always respect authority

It is sooo frustrating to see that there are ( still ) captains with the old school of "I'm the captain, I'm God".... and let me tell you, sadly, this is not only a problem in Asia....a few days ago I read about a similar attitude from a captain in a long haul flight MIA-EZE, the "victim" was a passenger and not the F/O, but I guess what kind of answer the F/O will get from a person with a self image of absolute superiority over the rest of the humanity...

Rgds.
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BMI727
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:43 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 10):
It is sooo frustrating to see that there are ( still ) captains with the old school of "I'm the captain, I'm God".... and let me tell you, sadly, this is not only a problem in Asia....

Those captains exist everywhere. What is good about this story is the FO's willingness to call him on it. Too many pilots might just blindly trust the captain and his authority.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
MCOflyer
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:13 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):

Those captains exist everywhere. What is good about this story is the FO's willingness to call him on it. Too many pilots might just blindly trust the captain and his authority.

Such as the case in Crossair 3597.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossair_Flight_3597

KH
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Gonzalo
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
What is good about this story is the FO's willingness to call him on it. Too many pilots might just blindly trust the captain and his authority.

That's the thing I found amazing. If I'm in a position where I could SAVE MY LIFE ( and all the others on board ), just talking or pointing out something, there is no power in this world that can inhibit my decision to say loud and clear what I'm thinking, be a Go Around call or whatever is needed... Will the captain be offended ? So sorry !!! A bad thing maybe, but MUCH BETTER than ending in the morgue.

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rampbro
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:06 am

I just forwarded the avherald posting to my boss as a 'reminder'  
 
bueb0g
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:35 am

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 4):

To me the most shocking part is an airline shooting an NDB approach in this day and age

Really not that rare, tbh... NDBs and certainly VOR DME approaches are not uncommon in Europe and Asia
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longhauler
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:47 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 3):
I am however impressed he actually hit the NDB antenna, that was pretty precise for a non-precision approach.
Quoting tb727 (Reply 3):
To me the most shocking part is an airline shooting an NDB approach in this day and age

Those were my initial thoughts as well.

But I remembered about 20 years ago, I was F/O and PNF doing an NDB approach into YYT in a B737-200. The Captain started to descent to MDA outside of the marker. I reminded him subtly, we were still outside the FAF. He didn't take the two hints, so I took over, climbed back up over Signal Hill, and landed on 34. In the van to the hotel I was thinking what an idiot this Captain was.

About six months later, with the same guy, doing an NDB approach to 06 in YHZ. This time I was flying, we were caught high, as the runway changed from 33 to 06, and I couldn't shake that "we are high" feeling. I did the same damned thing, started to descend to MDA outside the marker!! He gently, then not quite so gently told me to climb back up to beacon crossing height.

The moral I gained from this, is that a non-precision approach using raw data requires so much concentration, that one can easily lose their situational awareness. The PNF has far better situational awareness and his "hints" should be well heeded!

Luckily, in this case, the F/O had the onions to take over. A lot wouldn't, and haven't, especially in an Asian culture.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
checksixx
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:28 am

Bottom line as others have said...

See a situation developing, advise, make the call, take control, climb and reassess.
 
AmericanAirFan
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CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And GPWS Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:48 am

Great discussion going on here about CRM. I am surprised the FO let it go so far, but understanding the Chinese culture also brings into perspective a serious issue that often seems overlooked in other countries. Props to the FO for speaking up!
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777
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RE: CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And Gpws Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:23 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
The moral I gained from this, is that a non-precision approach using raw data requires so much concentration, that one can easily lose their situational awareness. The PNF has far better situational awareness and his "hints" should be well heeded!

Thanks for your interesting contribution!
 
Flighty
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RE: CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And Gpws Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:36 am

Quoting AmericanAirFan (Reply 18):
Props to the FO for speaking up!

Yes hopefully it can be educational for Chinese crews (if they do need this lesson).

The whole point of CRM (seems to be) that both crew members' judgment is in charge... it is interesting to hear about Chinese culture coming to grips with that. Even if Capt is right 999 times out of 1,000, the whole point is, that's not good enough. It needs to be a..... team approach.
 
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AirIndia
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RE: CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And Gpws Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:52 am

Quoting 777 (Reply 9):
23 years ago they were not so lucky As the Captain reacted dramatically too late to the Go Around declared by the F/O
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...114-0

Why go so far as 23 years. Less than 3 years back: http://www.avherald.com/h?article=42bd5e46/0002&opt=0
Air India Express in Mangalore. Similar aircraft.

Quote:

The Court of Inquiry determines that the cause of this accident was Captain’s failure to discontinue the ‘unstabilised approach’ and his persistence in continuing with the landing, despite three calls from the First Officer to ‘go around’ and a number of warnings from EGPWS.
 
EBGflyer
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RE: CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And Gpws Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:59 am

Don't understand why some captains hesitates to listen to their instruments. The Sukhoi Superjet crash in Indonesia proved the same when the captain neglected the GPWS warning. Unfortunately, they were not as lucky.
Future flights: CPH-BOS; CPH-SVG; CPH-PVG-HKG-MNL-DVO; CPH-CDG; CPH-NRT; CPH-MIA; CPH-PVG
 
fsnuffer
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RE: CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And Gpws Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:48 pm

In reading the article, could the captain have become fixated during the approach and "zoned out". Don't know the medical term for it but the captain might not have heard the FO.

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/I...ills_due_to_Fatigue_%28OGHFA_SE%29

Quote from article:

"The result was delayed reaction time as the captain became slow in his decision making and was subject to tunnel vision or fixation, focusing exclusively on one aspect to the exclusion of others."
 
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longhauler
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RE: CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And Gpws Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:27 pm

Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 23):
In reading the article, could the captain have become fixated during the approach and "zoned out". Don't know the medical term for it but the captain might not have heard the FO.

That is likely what did happen. So much concentration is devoted to navigation, a lot of other peripherals are lost.

What I can not read from the report is how the approach was being flown. Namely was lateral navigation being performed by heading select using the NDB needles? Or was the lateral navigation being flown on an FMS nav track, backed up by the needles? There is a huge difference in concentration required between the two!

As noted in the comments on AvHerald, very few airlines allow a "level out" at MDA. Normally a VNav profile is built and followed, or in aircraft less capable, a Constant Descent Angle is calculated, and when MDA is reached a go-around is performed. Levelling out at 400' above the terrain has never been a good idea, but "back in the day" ...
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YYZYYT
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RE: CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And Gpws Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:40 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 3):
I am however impressed he actually hit the NDB antenna, that was pretty precise for a non-precision approach.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
Those were my initial thoughts as well.

But I remembered about 20 years ago, I was F/O and PNF doing an NDB approach into YYT in a B737-200. The Captain started to descent to MDA outside of the marker. I reminded him subtly, we were still outside the FAF. He didn't take the two hints, so I took over, climbed back up over Signal Hill, and landed on 34. In the van to the hotel I was thinking what an idiot this Captain was.

About six months later, with the same guy, doing an NDB approach to 06 in YHZ. This time I was flying, we were caught high, as the runway changed from 33 to 06, and I couldn't shake that "we are high" feeling. I did the same damned thing, started to descend to MDA outside the marker!! He gently, then not quite so gently told me to climb back up to beacon crossing height.

The moral I gained from this, is that a non-precision approach using raw data requires so much concentration, that one can easily lose their situational awareness. The PNF has far better situational awareness and his "hints" should be well heeded!

Luckily, in this case, the F/O had the onions to take over. A lot wouldn't, and haven't, especially in an Asian culture

As a passenger who may have been on that flight into YYT - thank you! Can't say how many times I've passed over Signal Hill and watched the ground rush up to almost meet the plane...

It is interesting to hear your perspective, as Captain, would you be offended /hold a grudge if an F/O called a go around?

As for the CZ flight, can someone tell me if it is usual practice in China to hire ex-Air Force pilots? I've heard of situations where this reinforced the "authority is to be repsected" attitude, as the military discipline is premised upon obeying orders from above.
 
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longhauler
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RE: CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And Gpws Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:39 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 25):
It is interesting to hear your perspective, as Captain, would you be offended /hold a grudge if an F/O called a go around?

If an F/O ever commanded a Go-Around without any advance warning, I would do it. If he were flying, he would just do it ... and the other pilot in both cases would do their go-around drills to a safe height. Then I would ask ... "What the ^*&^*^ was that???" But, only at a safe height.

I have to assume he saw something I didn't. And even if he turned out to be incorrect, it doesn't matter, he thought it was right. And, I think we would all agree, being wrong at circuit height and doing another approach is far better than being correct but not saying anything.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
cubastar
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RE: CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And Gpws Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:12 pm

I'm one of the "old guys", and I learned quite quickly after transferring from the military to commercial flying, that it was absolutely necessary for the entire cockpit crew to become one cohesive unit working together to safely fly the aircraft.

Before any instrument approach anywhere near to minimums, my briefing always included the following: "If anyone becomes uncomfortable with ANYTHING during this approach, speak up and we go around. Then, we'll discuss the problem (if there was one) at a safe altitude".

I found it interesting that some of my first officers and second officers picked up and used this same wording in their briefings in later years.
 
777
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RE: CZ 738 Close Call, F/O And Gpws Saved The Day

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:05 pm

Quoting cubastar (Reply 27):
I found it interesting that some of my first officers and second officers picked up and used this same wording in their briefings in later years.

Nice.
These are real satisfactions.