Asiaflyer
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QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:20 am

According to some news wires, QR CEO Al Baker says Airbus has told him they will drop the A350-800.
This has already been speculated about on this forum, but it is the first time someone is his position says it straight out.
I find it very interesting that AAB cites Airbus in this matter. Will anyone ever tell AAB something in the future? Seems to be the worst place to hide a secret.
Why is even AAB spreading this type of rumor?

"Qatar Airways chief executive Akbar Al Baker, who recently cancelled an order for the A350-800 and upgraded orders for sister models, said the 270-seater would not appear in service.
"They (Airbus) are not going to make the -800. This is what they told us," he told reporters at a trade fair."

Airbus of course officially denies this rumor.
"Airbus said it was sticking by the USD$254 million model.
"The A350-800 is a key member of our next-generation A350 family," spokesman Stefan Schaffrath said."

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1362614264.html
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seahawk
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:26 am

Maybe room for a A330NEO.
 
TC957
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:12 am

It's about time that man knows what confidentiality and diplomacy is. It's not his business to broadcast what Airbus or Boeing plan to do with future new models.
 
76er
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:18 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 1):
Maybe room for a A330NEO

Yesss, bring on the widebody GTF and the sharklets!
  
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:29 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 1):

Maybe room for a A330NEO.

No, Its that the A358 was completely and totally outclassed by another plane that arrives on the market before it....

The A359 completely negates the market for the A358. The costs of the A358 development is too high for the number of frames that could be justified by its minor reduction in fuel burn for those airlines not needing the extra capacity, flexiblity, and lower per seat costs.
 
unityofsaints
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:07 am

Smart decision, if it's true. Could the engineering resources made available by this move push forward the A320 NEO EIS, or is the bottleneck engine development time?
 
col
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:53 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
No, Its that the A358 was completely and totally outclassed by another plane that arrives on the market before it....

You mean the HGW 330?
 
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Polot
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:24 pm

Quoting unityofsaints (Reply 5):
Smart decision, if it's true. Could the engineering resources made available by this move push forward the A320 NEO EIS, or is the bottleneck engine development time?

They might be used to help make sure the NEO is on time, but unlikely that the NEO EIS will be moved forward. Throwing more engineers at a project doesn't necessarily make the project move any faster.

Most of the resources would likely be used on making sure they get the A350-1000 right.
 
JerseyFlyer
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:58 pm

I wonder if AA/US is about to switch its 358s to 359s?
 
micstatic
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:00 pm

Why doesn't this guy ever shut is mouth? He will know he is a player when he doesn't need to use the media.
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:29 pm

It does look as if Airbus has tried to hit too many targets with the A350. The A358 seems to be the 736 or A318 of the type, ie too heavy to make up for seating loss.

One hopes from their point of view that they did not sacrifice A359/10 optimisation to fit in the A358.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
No, Its that the A358 was completely and totally outclassed by another plane that arrives on the market before it....

Would that be the plane that is currently banned from flying?
 
sirtoby
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 10):
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):No, Its that the A358 was completely and totally outclassed by another plane that arrives on the market before it....
Would that be the plane that is currently banned from flying?

Probably it's forthcoming big sister (-9). Looks like XT6wagon is right:

http://aeroturbopower.blogspot.de/20...3/03/a-new-chance-for-a330neo.html
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:42 pm

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 11):
Probably it's forthcoming big sister (-9). Looks like XT6wagon is right:

The calculations made by ferpe are showing something different:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/333neo332neovs3583597887897810FL370_zps8a2b1176.jpg
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
fcogafa
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:48 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 8):
I wonder if AA/US is about to switch its 358s to 359s?

Or switch to a Boeing product, could be the excuse AAL may have been looking for to standardise long haul.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:53 pm

...except that it is Cactus buying AA, not the other way round.

Seems US's relationship with Airbus is pretty robust.

Rgds
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:53 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 13):
Or switch to a Boeing product, could be the excuse AAL may have been looking for to standardise long haul.

I don't see them cancelling the A350, but I would be shocked if they didn't switch to the A350-900. With 20 788s/22 789s on order they really have no need for the A358, while the A359 can easily be used for expansion or replacement of older 777s depending on how things are going at the time of their delivery.

The question is what are some airlines like HA going to do if Airbus cancels the A350-800. The A359 would be a huge jump in capacity for them versus their A332s.

[Edited 2013-03-07 05:58:37]
 
bueb0g
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 14):
...except that it is Cactus buying AA, not the other way round

Not true... It is a proper merger, not a buyout - and yes, there is a difference.
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lightsaber
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:10 pm

This is not a surprise. Too many seats cut for a trivial drop in cost per flight. This is like the 77W vs. 77E. The larger frame that costs little more per flight will eventually dominate.

I'm excited for the A359 and A350-1000. I never saw the business case for the A358.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
The A359 completely negates the market for the A358. The costs of the A358 development is too high for the number of frames that could be justified by its minor reduction in fuel burn for those airlines not needing the extra capacity, flexiblity, and lower per seat costs.

Agreed. The lower per seat cost certainly helped kill off the A358.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):
The calculations made by ferpe are showing something different:

I respect Ferpe's calculations, but I just do not see that much of a weight difference between the A358 and A359. Thus the cost difference per flight will be low. Besides, fuel is 40% of the flight cost for long haul*7% means that the A358 only costs about 3% less per flight than the A359 with Ferpe's numbers. Thus, were is the market?

Quoting 76er (Reply 3):
Yesss, bring on the widebody GTF and the sharklets!

I wish... but unlikely.

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BlueShamu330s
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:17 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 16):
Not true... It is a proper merger, not a buyout - and yes, there is a difference.

Thanks; I'm well aware of the difference.

Doesn't change the fact the guy at the top of the pyramid is going to be US not AA.
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:29 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17):
I'm excited for the A359 and A350-1000. I never saw the business case for the A358.

True, the problem being that the A358 was factored in from the start, and that I believe Airbus aimed too low, size wise, due to that.

Had it not been for the -800, the -1000 would have been the sweet spot of the family, allowing for an interesting -1100...
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 18):
Doesn't change the fact the guy at the top of the pyramid is going to be US not AA.

We thought that about Smisek being CEO of UA and yet UA still has its A350 order. Granted, the relationship between (old) UA and Airbus was formed only when UA decided to go with A32Xs and then later with Tilton's order for A350s. Doug Parker might have the opportunity to test Boeing products and, since US will no longer exist, might jump in bed with Boeing as well.

AA has already ordered plenty of A32X and NEOs. The real challenge will come when it is time to start replacing US's A32Xs which I expect it to do so at the beginning of the next decade. Will Parker be impressed enough with the 737s to keep ordering some?
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:24 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 1):
Maybe room for a A330NEO.

Never going to happen, IMO. Airbus is (eventually) ceding the low-end of the widebody market to Boeing's 787, but the real future growth is likely in the middle and upper ends, where they are very well-positioned with the A350-900 and A350-1000.



Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 10):
It does look as if Airbus has tried to hit too many targets with the A350.

  

The A350 family is the replacement for the A330-200, A330-300, A340-300, A340-500 and A340-600 airframes as well as the competitor to the 787-8. 787-9. 777-200LR and 777-300ER (and likely soon the 787-10, 777-8 and 777-9).

Thats asking a lot from one family, IMO.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 18):
Doesn't change the fact the guy at the top of the pyramid is going to be US not AA.

And he must have signed-off on the 787 order AA recently firmed, so... *shrug*



Quoting francoflier (Reply 19):
True, the problem being that the A358 was factored in from the start, and that I believe Airbus aimed too low, size wise, due to that.

The A350-800 was larger than the A330-200, so making it even larger would have just left more of the lower-end of the widebody market to the 787-8.

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):
The question is what are some airlines like HA going to do if Airbus cancels the A350-800. The A359 would be a huge jump in capacity for them versus their A332s.

If the trip costs between the A350-800 and A350-900 are close enough, then empty seats won't really hurt HA. Where HA could be hurt is if they were planning non-stop EU to Hawaii operations as those might have needed the range of the A350-800HGW.
 
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:59 pm

If I was Airbus and my launch was broadcasting to the media what my long range business plan was, I don’t think I’d ever want to work with them as a launch customer again. We all know how vocal Airbus’ sales chief Leahy is. I’m very surprised this is coming from Bakar. It doesn’t sound very professional of him to do that. There is a lot of proprietary information that you get to know as launch customer that shouldn’t be broadcast out to the media.
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:01 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):
The question is what are some airlines like HA going to do if Airbus cancels the A350-800. The A359 would be a huge jump in capacity for them versus their A332s.

Without knowing what HA's configuration will be it may be as much of a capacity jump as the A332's was from the 763's.
The A332's are still very new and will be around for a long time. I can see HA delaying delivery of the A359's to a later time when they will be ready to absorb that capacity increase. At the rate HA is growing in the Pacific it may not take that long.

HA reminds me a lot of TP, as far as equipment choice. TP used to operate a fleet of A310's and when they decided to replace those with A340's and A332's everyone said it was too much capacity, and somehow they managed to make it work. Then came the A358 order and again, people were saying the plane was too big. They have since switched the order to the A359. Only time will tell but I think HA will do just fine with the A359.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
If the trip costs between the A350-800 and A350-900 are close enough, then empty seats won't really hurt HA. Where HA could be hurt is if they were planning non-stop EU to Hawaii operations as those might have needed the range of the A350-800HGW.

  
 
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:15 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
No, Its that the A358 was completely and totally outclassed by another plane that arrives on the market before it....

Presumably you mean the A350-900....

however, if Airbus were to tailor it more, it would be a very effective airframe - more effective than any A330 derivative is likely to be

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Thats asking a lot from one family, IMO

Does the A350 in reality cover any more ground than the 787?
The spread in cabin size from 787-8 to 787-10 is quite similar to that from A358 to A3510

As for what it competes with or replaces, that's a picture that will unfold with time.
It won't be the first time a manufacturer has had line-up "gaps" for a while..

Rgds
 
AY-MD11
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):
The question is what are some airlines like HA going to do if Airbus cancels the A350-800. The A359 would be a huge jump in capacity for them versus their A332s.

I think if the -800 is canceled then for HA the A330NEO with Trent1000 would be perfect.
 
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Stitch
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:46 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 24):
Does the A350 in reality cover any more ground than the 787?

Well if we assume Boeing will launch a 75m 787-11 as well as increase the MTOW for the 787-9, 787-10 and 787-11 towards 300 tons, then no.   

Effectively the 787-8 replaces the 767-300ER and competes with the A330-200. The 787-9 replaces the 777-200ER (though only in 6-abreast Business and 9-abreast Economy) and competes with the A330-300 and A340-300. The 787-10 effectively creates her own niche within the Boeing family hierarchy - she's sized between the 777-200 and 777-300 families. However, it should be large enough to replace a 777-200 that is configured in seven-or-eight-abreast Business and 10-abreast Economy.

In terms of competition to Airbus, the 787-10 is closest in size to the A340-500, though it offers nothing close to the range, so it's not really a competitor to that product, IMO.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 24):
The spread in cabin size from 787-8 to 787-10 is quite similar to that from A358 to A3510

Yes. The difference between the largest and smallest variant is about 30% for each family.

[Edited 2013-03-07 08:48:42]
 
JerseyFlyer
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting AY-MD11 (Reply 25):
I think if the -800 is canceled then for HA the A330NEO with Trent1000 would be perfect.

Not if they want to fly non-stop to Europe.
 
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:37 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 19):
Had it not been for the -800, the -1000 would have been the sweet spot of the family, allowing for an interesting -1100...



Could the 350 be stretched to an 1100 - perhaps with a highly modified or even new wing? It will be close to 80 meters long (the 1000 being 74,3) and might seat as many as 400 pax in Airbus' standard configuration.
 
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par13del
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:44 pm

Quoting Asiaflyer (Thread starter):
I find it very interesting that AAB cites Airbus in this matter. Will anyone ever tell AAB something in the future? Seems to be the worst place to hide a secret.
Why is even AAB spreading this type of rumor?
Quoting TC957 (Reply 2):
It's about time that man knows what confidentiality and diplomacy is. It's not his business to broadcast what Airbus or Boeing plan to do with future new models.

AAB is a known entity to Airbus, so my question would not be why he is talking but why Airbus is providing him with informattion over and above what their order entails.
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XT6Wagon
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 24):
Presumably you mean the A350-900....

I don't know where anyone got the idea I was suggesting anything different. I certainly only mentioned the A359 and A358 in my post.

The 787 doesn't really factor into how good the A358 is, if the A358 is dominated by its bigger brother in such a complete fashion.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 24):
however, if Airbus were to tailor it more, it would be a very effective airframe - more effective than any A330 derivative is likely to be

I agree, but again, is the market there to pay for it. I think its allways going to simply be easier to spend the same money to make the A359 better than to make a optimized A358. So in 10 years or so when they will be looking at the viablity of a A350 2.0 project... which would you put your limited time and money on?
 
art
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:49 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Airbus is (eventually) ceding the low-end of the widebody market to Boeing's 787, but the real future growth is likely in the middle and upper ends, where they are very well-positioned with the A350-900 and A350-1000.

  

If the A359 will have only a marginally higher trip cost than the A358, why bother with A358? Not much point in offering something that won't sell just for the sake of covering the market, is there?
 
FlyingAY
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:06 pm

Quoting art (Reply 31):

If the A359 will have only a marginally higher trip cost than the A358, why bother with A358? Not much point in offering something that won't sell just for the sake of covering the market, is there?

However, isn't the same true for 787-8 and 787-9? I believe -9 will be more popular one and the trip cost is not that much more for -9...
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 32):
However, isn't the same true for 787-8 and 787-9? I believe -9 will be more popular one and the trip cost is not that much more for -9...

We've seen this before with the 767-200 and we are seeing it again with the 777-200ER. I can see a future where the same will happen with the 787-8 once the huge backlog has shrunk (somewhere around the end of the decade).

Quoting abba (Reply 28):
Could the 350 be stretched to an 1100 - perhaps with a highly modified or even new wing? It will be close to 80 meters long (the 1000 being 74,3) and might seat as many as 400 pax in Airbus' standard configuration.

John Leahy already explained there will be no further stretch.

[Edited 2013-03-07 11:18:36]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
astuteman
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:23 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
Well if we assume Boeing will launch a 75m 787-11 as well as increase the MTOW for the 787-9, 787-10 and 787-11 towards 300 tons, then no
Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
The difference between the largest and smallest variant is about 30% for each family

Make your mind up....  

Like I said ....

The only thing "wrong" with the A350-800 is its a straight shrink of the A350-900.
The decision to do that added some 5t - 6t to the OEW by my calculation, based on fuel load and range/payload.

Hence the relationship is akin to the 772LR and the 773ER.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 30):
I agree, but again, is the market there to pay for it. I think its allways going to simply be easier to spend the same money to make the A359 better than to make a optimized A358

  

There is a lot more opportunity to "improve" the A350-800.

The current A358 will have advantages over the A350-900 at very long ranges due to its payload/range ability, much like the 772LR has relative to the 773ER.

The A350-800 even "sub-optimised" as it is today sits neatly between the 787-8 and 787-9 both in terms of capacity and operating cost
A more optimised A358 would cost a lot less than the A350-900 to operate and almost certainly challenge the 787-8's operating costs whilst offering more capacity.

I don't know how robust AAB's information is, but I predict we'll see an -800 size variant of the A350 at some point, even if its deferred for now  

Rgds
 
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lightsaber
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:29 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 34):
The only thing "wrong" with the A350-800 is its a straight shrink of the A350-900.
The decision to do that added some 5t - 6t to the OEW by my calculation, based on fuel load and range/payload.

And straight shrinks tend to have lower resale value later in a program. I just do not see a 'strong niche' for the A358. Even if far improved.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 34):
There is a lot more opportunity to "improve" the A350-800.

Agreed, but I do not see the ROI as the costs won't be 'that much less' than the A359. My friend, I too would let the A358 fade to black and would spend the money on A359 PIPs. It will be a fine plane that sells well in the two currently discussed lengths.

Lightsaber
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hawkercamm
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:37 pm

EIS'ing in 2022 a A330NEO with a 130" BPR16 GTF with a >20% SFC improvement over current A330 would make a very nice B787-8/9 replacement!  
If that is the plan it's not going to be announced until 2017-2018 to save sales.

Speculation - it's fantastic!
 
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Stitch
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 34):
Make your mind up....   

 

I am looking beyond just cabin floor area, however.

The A350-800, A350-900 and A350-1000 all have nominal design ranges at or beyond 8,000nm at 9-abreast. This means that not only does the A350 have the cabin floor area to replace the A340-500, A340-600, 777-200LR and 777-300ER, they also have the range to do so (the A350-800HGW for the A340-500 and the A350-900HGW for the 777-200LR).

The 787-10 can neither match the capacity nor the range of the A340-600 nor the 777-300ER and while the 787-9 can match the capacity of the A340-500 and 777-200LR (the latter at a lower seating density than a 77L can accept), it cannot match their range.
 
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):
The question is what are some airlines like HA going to do if Airbus cancels the A350-800.

Hopefully jump to the 787. HA would be so much better off with the 787 family. -8 is great for CONUS routes. And -9 for long-haul and high demand routes. The A350 family is just too big for them.
 
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3rdGen
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:43 pm

I don't understand why there's this discrepancy between AAB and Airbus' statements. If Airbus really has cancelled the 358 then I am sure that everyone involved would already know about it. Why just tell AAB and not inform the other airlines that also have orders. In which case let it be made known to the public.

Is it common for this industry to work this way? Try to keep everything as close to the chest as possible to stop the competitor from getting the jump? I suppose it is but in any case its not as though Boeing is going to be rushing to design something else to fill the gap the 358 leaves behind, they already have the 789 and 7810 in production and on the drawing board respectively. And in any case until Airbus comes out and confirms this rumor I wouldn't be taking AAB as a source, let's not forget the famous "We are not joining Oneworld" comment made one week before he joined Oneworld.
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KarelXWB
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:43 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 22):
If I was Airbus and my launch was broadcasting to the media what my long range business plan was, I don’t think I’d ever want to work with them as a launch customer again. We all know how vocal Airbus’ sales chief Leahy is. I’m very surprised this is coming from Bakar. It doesn’t sound very professional of him to do that. There is a lot of proprietary information that you get to know as launch customer that shouldn’t be broadcast out to the media.

Baker is always saying things. Last year he would buy up to 15 A330's due the 787 delays. Right.

I don't expect Airbus to make any final decisions on the -800 before they have gathered flight data from MSN001.
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting hawkercamm (Reply 36):
EIS'ing in 2022 a A330NEO with a 130" BPR16 GTF with a >20% SFC improvement over current A330 would make a very nice B787-8/9 replacement!

Too bad in 2022 most operators will not be interested in replacing 787s...
 
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:08 pm

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 39):
I don't understand why there's this discrepancy between AAB and Airbus' statements. If Airbus really has cancelled the 358 then I am sure that everyone involved would already know about it. Why just tell AAB and not inform the other airlines that also have orders. In which case let it be made known to the public.

Per statements by Airbus, QR was the earliest customer asking for A350-800 deliveries and they chose 2016. With them converting their order to the larger models, that pushed back the A350-800's EIS even farther. Depending on when the next A350-800 customer wanted their deliveries, Airbus may have decided that it was better to free up those slots for potential A350-900 and A350-1000 customers.

Also, even if AAB is correct, Airbus may be following the same decision they did with the A380-800 freighter and rather than formally cancel the program, just indefinitely delay it.
 
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:25 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35):
I just do not see a 'strong niche' for the A358. Even if far improved.

The difficulty I have with this is that it seems to me that the A358 even in its current form will be quite competitive with the 787-8 and -9.
In an improved form it will be very competitive.

So I don't understand why the 787 can have one of the largest "niches" we've ever seen, but the A358 can't.

And the argument that the 350-900 "undercuts" it doesn't really wash in this particular sense either, otherwise the A350-900 would surely be strangling the 787-8's and -9's market too...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):
I am looking beyond just cabin floor area, however.

In terms of the stretch on the airframe, that surely is either measured in size, or weight.
Size, we've established is a 30% variance for each frame.

In terms of weight, you're right that the A350 has a 19% spread (259t to 308t) whilst the 787 only has an 11% spread (227t to 252t).

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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:34 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
Also, even if AAB is correct, Airbus may be following the same decision they did with the A380-800 freighter and rather than formally cancel the program, just indefinitely delay it.

Don't know whether this is clever or sinister, or both. Is this just Airbus' way of nudging customers towards other products, knowing full well that they will never manufacture this aircraft and as a result save themselves the cost of formally cancelling the program and paying whatever compensation is due.
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:39 pm

If the 748 can live with the GEnx so can the A330?!
 
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:40 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 43):
The difficulty I have with this is that it seems to me that the A358 even in its current form will be quite competitive with the 787-8 and -9.
In an improved form it will be very competitive.

If they do cancel, in my view they would already have a strategy in place. I think that strategy would partially be based upon the work they did for the original A350, I heard numbers that they spent over a billion in development costs for that already, so they should have something they can show for that expenditure. I would think it will go along the lines of teh A320NEO project.

I would not be surprised if the 787 grounding means that Airbus can get away with an improved A330 before the revised A358 EIS for a lower cost. This would allow them to have increased output (and two "different" supply chains) of widebodies on two lines, A330/A350. When Airbus committed to the A358, the EIS and number of frames in service for the 787 was very different.

A lot of 787s will end up flying relatively shorter routes, with some aero improvements, A350 cockpit, and a modern powerplant, I see no reason why an A330 could not have lower direct trip costs over a 787 on shorter routes. The 787 would have the direct trip cost advantage long haul.

In my view, Airbus would probably conceded the 5-6000nm+ smaller widebody market, while competing with the larger aircraft which have better numbers anyway on longer sectors, and an improved A330 on regional/medium haul routes.
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:44 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):
The calculations made by ferpe are showing something different:

It would be interesting to know the 359 trip costs with the 788 payload as the delta would be significantly less then 10 % if she was loaded with 7 t less self loading cargo and the fuel reduced to match.

I guess the delta would be under 5% for the same payload, with the significant yield upside when demand was there.
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:19 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 8):
I wonder if AA/US is about to switch its 358s to 359s?

The A359 is a better 777 replacement. But considering AA is still taking 777s, it seems the 77W is a replacement for the 777 with them.

US's A350 order isn't that large. The deposits can be applied to firming up the A320NEO options outstanding. AA+US need never take the A350 at all. I'd see them with A330HGW/NEO first...

Quoting airbazar (Reply 23):
Without knowing what HA's configuration will be it may be as much of a capacity jump as the A332's was from the 763's.

Which is too much. HA isn't big enough to have 3 types/sizes.

Quoting AY-MD11 (Reply 25):
I think if the -800 is canceled then for HA the A330NEO with Trent1000 would be perfect.

That's not NEO enough. Maybe a Trent 2000 and/or GEnx3?
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RE: QR CEO Says Airbus Is Dropping A350-800

Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:24 pm

Quoting art (Reply 31):
If the A359 will have only a marginally higher trip cost than the A358, why bother with A358? Not much point in offering something that won't sell just for the sake of covering the market, is there?

What is miss in this discussion is the fact that there is one good reason for th A358 - range. The above argument is ths same as If the B77W will have only a marginally higher trip cost than the B77L, why bother with B77L?

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