United1
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UA Orders 8 More 737's

Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:01 pm

The AP is reporting that UA ordered 8 more 737's....any idea on what type they are? I'm going to assume 737-900ERs.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-books-jet-orders-4-164134086.html
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fun2fly
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:10 pm

From Boeing: Changes since last update: 27 new orders (ALC 10 777s, GECAS four 737s, Qantas five 737s, and United Airlines eight 737s). In the Changes category, reduced 737 net orders by two.

Nice week. Does not point out the 737 type.

Wonder if the 787 grounding factored into the pricing on this order?
 
PMUA787
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:47 pm

With all of these new 737 orders how long will the A319/320 fleet stay around with the Post CO management penchant to cast off anything from the pre-merger UA?
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting PMUA787 (Reply 2):
With all of these new 737 orders how long will the A319/320 fleet stay around with the Post CO management penchant to cast off anything from the pre-merger UA?

Considering they are investing in new seats, wifi, and overhead bin mods on the entire Airbus fleet, and that the youngest are only about 10 years old, they will be around for a while yet.

If anything, some of the 737MAX order will replace the oldest A320s from 1994 time frame.

I am curious what their replacement strategy will be for the older 320s and 738s. I can't see them sticking with a narrowbody fleet of ONLY 737-900 sized airplanes. Hopefully a C-series order will be in there, CS-300 and (rumored) CS-500 would nicely replace the 319/73G and fit nicely between the 70 seaters and the 739ER/-9MAX.

Theoretically, by 2025 or so the UA fleet could be down to only 4 types:
C-series
739ER/MAX
787-8/9 (10?)
A359/(10?)
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:37 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
Considering they are investing in new seats, wifi, and overhead bin mods on the entire Airbus fleet, and that the youngest are only about 10 years old, they will be around for a while yet.

I flew on an A319 equipped with Wifi flying as UA998 LAX-IAD last Saturday night. Seats 1F and 2E were tracking the flight live on 'Flightaware.'

Nice to see something other that Hulu and Facebook.  
 
AADC10
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:38 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
Theoretically, by 2025 or so the UA fleet could be down to only 4 types:
C-series
739ER/MAX
787-8/9 (10?)
A359/(10?)

I doubt this. A C-series order is entirely speculation. I suspect that UA would prefer not to add a type when they can get a 737MAX 7 or 8. Anything smaller will go to UAX. Some the 738s were delivered within the last few years so they will probably still be around in 2025. A few specialty aircraft such as some 772s, 764s, and 753s may still be around.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:56 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 5):

In general I agree, but UA is also interested in saving money. Considering they'd probably end up with 100+ C-series (and yes, I know that's completely speculation, but pmUA was looking at the type just before the merger), you have to consider the much better fuel burn and optimized mission profile of the C-series vs. the heavier A319/73G that would easily offset any commonality savings. When UA/CO ordered the 73G/A319, there really wasn't a better alternative.

Also, not 100% sure, but does the new contract allow for express to fly up to 90 seaters, or just 70/76 seats? That's a big hole between 70 seats and 738/739 capacity that is not going to be left unfilled, and to date, none of UA's fleet renewal strategy has addressed this.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:23 pm

The scope-clause limit changes: UA won't add any 76-seat aircraft until Jan. 1, 2014, keeping current legacy UA 70-seat and turboprop limits until then. Afterwards the cap of 70- to 76-seat aircraft would be set at 255 – but no more than 130 76-seat aircraft - including the Bombardier Q400.

UA has 183 of the 255 70/76-seat aircraft; 148 70-seat aircraft and 35 Q400s (as of November 2012)

After Jan. 1, 2016, the cap of 76-seat aircraft would be set at 153, with an allowance to go above the limit only if new small narrowbody are added to the UA fleet, reducing the number of 70-seat aircraft from 148 to 102. [This is where the C series fits in if added to the fleet].

The maximum UA Express hard cap would be reduced from 588 aircraft to 450. [A concession to encourage more mainline flying]

Source credit: http://atwonline.com/operations-main...pilot-scope-clause-expansions-1121

The union got a few tweaks inserted to encourage the addition of a C series a/c to the fleet and it would be mainline rather than express flying. The airline will map out the C series costs versus the expected routes and projected yields to see if it makes sense. When you factor in acquisition costs, will it make sense to buy the C series rather than fly full regional a/c or perhaps not quite full 319s?
 
davs5032
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:53 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 6):
In general I agree, but UA is also interested in saving money. Considering they'd probably end up with 100+ C-series (and yes, I know that's completely speculation, but pmUA was looking at the type just before the merger), you have to consider the much better fuel burn and optimized mission profile of the C-series vs. the heavier A319/73G that would easily offset any commonality savings. When UA/CO ordered the 73G/A319, there really wasn't a better alternative.

The CS-300 would certainly make a lot of sense in UA's fleet, but we'll see if they think the fuel savings are enough to offset the costs of adding a new type. You'd think B or A might be willing/able to make a lower offer relative to list price, however the Cseries has an advantage of having a cheaper list price to begin with, so that may be a wash.

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 7):
The union got a few tweaks inserted to encourage the addition of a C series a/c to the fleet and it would be mainline rather than express flying. The airline will map out the C series costs versus the expected routes and projected yields to see if it makes sense. When you factor in acquisition costs, will it make sense to buy the C series rather than fly full regional a/c or perhaps not quite full 319s?

The CS100 may be too close to regional jet size to make sense for UA, unless they have some niche routes that require its capacity or range. The final-designed CS300, however, is slightly stretched, and allows for enough seating to make it a full 1:1 replacement for an A319/B73G...plenty of capacity for it to be viable in mainline. Actually, BBD's site states that the CS300 can be configured w/ 2-class 12F/118Y layout, (even w/ 32" Y). I'd think UA's A319/73G's, were they in 2 class configuration, could seat no more than that. So, the Cseries has a legitimate chance here IMO.
 
DFWHeavy
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:09 am

8 Just seems like such a small number. I would understand a smaller airline adding that many, but how does an airline the size of United come tot he conclusion that they need just 8 737s?
Christopher W Slovacek
 
United1
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:26 am

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 9):

8 Just seems like such a small number. I would understand a smaller airline adding that many, but how does an airline the size of United come tot he conclusion that they need just 8 737s?

Just a top up...assuming that these are -900ERs they have 77 900ERs on order and 100 737-MAX9.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
jayunited
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:34 am

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 7):
The scope-clause limit changes: UA won't add any 76-seat aircraft until Jan. 1, 2014, keeping current legacy UA 70-seat and turboprop limits until then. Afterwards the cap of 70- to 76-seat aircraft would be set at 255 – but no more than 130 76-seat aircraft - including the Bombardier Q400.

UA has 183 of the 255 70/76-seat aircraft; 148 70-seat aircraft and 35 Q400s (as of November 2012)

After Jan. 1, 2016, the cap of 76-seat aircraft would be set at 153, with an allowance to go above the limit only if new small narrowbody are added to the UA fleet, reducing the number of 70-seat aircraft from 148 to 102. [This is where the C series fits in if added to the fleet].

The maximum UA Express hard cap would be reduced from 588 aircraft to 450. [A concession to encourage more mainline flying]

You are correct I spoke to several United pilots after their contract was ratified and UAX flying will be reduced in favor of more mainline aircraft that will be flown by United pilots but they said it will take time because the current contracts United has with some of their express partners don't expire for a few years. But in a few years you will see United follow Delta's lead by adding more aircraft to the mainline fleet and reducing the express fleet.

However non of these pilots confirmed that United would be adding the C-series so I think the type of aircraft that United will use to replace some of the express fleet is still undetermined at this point.
 
VgnAtl747
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:59 pm

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 9):
8 Just seems like such a small number.

I'd be willing to bet that this "top up" order is in some way tied to the 787 mess. Perhaps heavily discounted frames out in the distant future as part of their 787 delay/grounding compensation.
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
ytz
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:40 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
Theoretically, by 2025 or so the UA fleet could be down to only 4 types:
C-series
739ER/MAX
787-8/9 (10?)
A359/(10?)

This actually makes sense for all large airlines. This way they get to operate the most optimized aircraft in each capacity category.

Operating the 319/73G or their next-gen engine counterparts, does not make sense when the CSeries is on the table. Especially if BBD eventually launches the CS500. That would make it an open and shut case.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:50 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 13):
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
Theoretically, by 2025 or so the UA fleet could be down to only 4 types:
C-series
739ER/MAX
787-8/9 (10?)
A359/(10?)

This actually makes sense for all large airlines. This way they get to operate the most optimized aircraft in each capacity category.

Not really. That has an implicit assumption that the size-optimized aircraft is also the best for every mission within the aircraft size group, and that's really not so. Stage length, airport elevation, hot performance are factors (among others) that mean the right 160-seater for PHX-DEN may not be the right one for YUL-YVR. UA (and DL, AA+US, AFKL, Lufthansa group) is plenty large enough to achieve full economies of scale from any type while operating more than four types.
 
flightsimer
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:20 pm

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 9):

My, my has A.net grown way too accustomed to 100+ frame orders.

those 8 planes are over $750,000,000 at list prices, hardly a small order in my books.

As other have stated, its just a top off order.
Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:42 am

The C series published range is 2,950 miles so it won't have the range of the 319 or 737-700. The capacity is similar between these aircraft but UA uses their 319s and 737-700s for coast to coast missions quite a bit which the C series won't be able to do.

If UA feels they can upgauge their transcons then the C series can handle short and mid-range domestic runs plus IAH or SFO to Mexico or EWR to Florida or the Caribbean.
 
Viscount724
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:50 am

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 9):
8 Just seems like such a small number. I would understand a smaller airline adding that many, but how does an airline the size of United come tot he conclusion that they need just 8 737s?

Many large airlines place orders in small numbers. In some cases they were probably options but weren't changed to firm orders until financing etc. was arranged.

For example, AA's 260 factory-delivered MD-80s were covered by 20 separate orders. Their 167 factory-delivered 727s comprised 19 separate orders.
 
ADXMatt
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:05 am

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 9):
8 Just seems like such a small number. I would understand a smaller airline adding that many, but how does an airline the size of United come tot he conclusion that they need just 8 737s?

From the article.... The new orders include eight of its workhorse 737-900ERs for United Continental Holdings Inc., which was exercising options,

Quoting United1 (Thread starter):
.any idea on what type they are? I'm going to assume 737-900ERs.

Correct!
 
United1
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:08 am

Quoting adxmatt (Reply 18):
From the article.... The new orders include eight of its workhorse 737-900ERs for United Continental Holdings Inc., which was exercising options,

Quoting United1 (Thread starter):
.any idea on what type they are? I'm going to assume 737-900ERs.

Correct!

...cool looks like they updated the article since I first asked the question... 
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atxpatriot811
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:03 am

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 9):
8 Just seems like such a small number. I would understand a smaller airline adding that many, but how does an airline the size of United come tot he conclusion that they need just 8 737s?

Integer Programming. Someone in the Operations Research department there probably ran the numbers and to support their future goals, they needed 8 more 737s. My OR Professor used to work at United, he told me plenty about how they do their math.

8 737s can do a lot, with CO's methodology of running planes at a high utilization rate works well for a young fleet, well, that young fleet will one day get older, and so 8 more planes can help maintain the schedule, add frequency, add cities, etc.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:39 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
I am curious what their replacement strategy will be for the older 320s and 738s. I can't see them sticking with a narrowbody fleet of ONLY 737-900 sized airplanes. Hopefully a C-series order will be in there, CS-300 and (rumored) CS-500 would nicely replace the 319/73G and fit nicely between the 70 seaters and the 739ER/-9MAX.

The CS300 and 500 aren't even remotely the size of the A320 or the 738.

NS
 
strfyr51
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RE: UA Orders 8 More 737's

Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:55 am

the A319's and A320's are getting interior mods that remove the overhead video screens, extend the Bins, Install new lightweight seats and WI-FI . then the planes will Primarily be based in IAH and fly Primarily South of the USA . They're also getting airframe Life extension Mods to take them into the future until they come due for replacement. What they'll be replaced WITH? I have no Idea. and hopefully I'll be retired before the Get replaced