iowaman
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A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:54 pm

Due to length of part 7, please continue part 8 here if so desired.

Previous thread: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7 (by Luxair747SP Jan 21 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:46 am

First Photo in the database:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Langenfeld - hummelfX

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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:02 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 1):

That's an incredible wingtip design. This perspective really show the unique curvature.

One question though: Why does the vertical stabilizer not have such a smooth roundout to the fuselage than, for example, the A330? Does that not increase the parasite drag a lot?
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:09 pm

I have a question. There are 5 spots at station 18:

http://oi45.tinypic.com/5bocd4.jpg

And 7 hangars at station 20:

http://oi47.tinypic.com/2i7o6eb.jpg

At some point in time these places will handle 10x A330 and 10x A350 aircraft per month. Airbus is building a second A350 FAL right now but no word on extra places at station 18 nor station 20. Are 5x station 18 and 7x station 20 spots really enough to support the assembly of 20 aircraft a month?
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starbucks
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:20 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 2):
One question though: Why does the vertical stabilizer not have such a smooth roundout to the fuselage than, for example, the A330? Does that not increase the parasite drag a lot?

Well, the A380 has more or less the same tail design at the VTP/fuselage meeting point..


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © T.Laurent



So I guess the design works  Smile

[Edited 2013-03-08 05:21:01]
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:56 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 2):
That's an incredible wingtip design. This perspective really show the unique curvature.

Now those are what I call sharklets
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:44 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 5):
Quoting Semaex (Reply 2):
That's an incredible wingtip design. This perspective really show the unique curvature.

Now those are what I call sharklets

Agreed!!
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 2):
Why does the vertical stabilizer not have such a smooth roundout to the fuselage than, for example, the A330?

There is a rounded shape at the base of the fin. It doesn't necessarily need to be proportional to the size of the fin.
And it decreases the wetted area that way.
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
I have a question. There are 5 spots at station 18:

and 7 hangars at station 20:

At some point in time these places will handle 10x A330 and 10x A350 aircraft per month. Airbus is building a second A350 FAL right now but no word on extra places at station 18 nor station 20. Are 5x station 18 and 7x station 20 spots really enough to support the assembly of 20 aircraft a month?


If you can streamline production and improve it's leaness then yeah, make more with less.

Eventually the A330 will be completely replaced by the A350, although there's no sight of this yet, I believe once the A350 is flying and production matures, there won't be as much demand for the A330 and it will slowly phase out. There will be plenty of young second hand frames available perhaps too because of the increased production rate now.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 5):
Quoting Semaex (Reply 2):
That's an incredible wingtip design. This perspective really show the unique curvature.

Now those are what I call sharklets

Yeah - the A350 has instantly risen to near the top of my favorite looking aircraft with those babies!  
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:07 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
And 7 hangars at station 20:

To my knowledge (from the Taxiway panoramic tours and other sources) there are actually 9 station 20 hangers. Which I have labelled in red 20A-20I.

Airbus Postes


They've more or less finished a new hanger next to 20A, but I don't think it is in use yet.
In addition the big hanger C63 can get at least 3 A330s inside, I have seen frames come out of Poste 35A/B and go straight in there, frames go from stations 18 in there and from stations 20. A330s can also end up in C63 after a test flight. So although I don't count it in the 9 stations 20 at present this hanger provides extra capacity.

The area I have marked with 1 (Blue) is now a location that you can often see A330s in a similar state to stations 18. Therefore you could also consider that as extra capacity, especially after they have come out of stations 30.

Early this month I realised that it looks like a new hanger is being built in the area marked 2 (Blue) next to the hanger traditionally used by the test flight A380s.

There is one hanger I have marked with Z (Blue) , that I don't know what it has used for. It looks like a paint hall (other 2 are marked with PH) , but i have also seen A320s and 330s in there receiving attention.

Finally there is also the opportunity to do some work off site. B-LAZ (A330 msn 1387) is a recent example as it spent more than two weeks away from TLS between it's first and second flight. I think at Châteauroux and came back painted and I assume with its cabin installed.

What is happening on the A350 site, I don't know. It is still one big building site on one side still and the tours don't get near it. It is also built in such a way that external views are very limited.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:48 pm

Now that's some useful information! Thank you. There is almost nothing to find on the internet about the A330 final assembly buildings.

Quote:
They've more or less finished a new hanger next to 20A, but I don't think it is in use yet.
In addition the big hanger C63 can get at least 3 A330s inside, I have seen frames come out of Poste 35A/B and go straight in there, frames go from stations 18 in there and from stations 20. A330s can also end up in C63 after a test flight. So although I don't count it in the 9 stations 20 at present this hanger provides extra capacity.

It's probably a hanger with enough space to do some (specific customer?) things that are not part of the normal assembly process.

Quote:
The area I have marked with 1 (Blue) is now a location that you can often see A330s in a similar state to stations 18. Therefore you could also consider that as extra capacity, especially after they have come out of stations 30.

Ah, there are more places for outdoor ground tests. Good to know.

There is still one unknown building, do you know its purpose?

http://oi47.tinypic.com/vpbx34.jpg

1 = A330 wing join
2 = A330 fuselage join
3 = A330 system installation
? = ??

The steel on the roof indicates that there are cranes inside so it must be some kind of assembly building.

[Edited 2013-03-08 11:52:36]
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:48 pm

Your latest pic takes me back a few years when Taxiway ran a tour of the A330/340 line.

The area with the question mark is the Beluga unpacking area. They go in nose first here where there is some equipment to empty them.

Area 1 as you say is where the wings are joined to the middle fuselage section. This is know as Poste 40A

Area 2 has two areas for assembling the aircraft. Marked as Poste 35A (bottom of pic) and Poste 35B

Area 3 is then Poste 30D - Poste 30A from left to right.

The old tour had a visitors gallery between poste 30A and 35A. So if you have seen any pictures of 4 A330s on the line it is probably taken from here.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:58 pm

Quoting TeamDA (Reply 12):
The old tour had a visitors gallery between poste 30A and 35A. So if you have seen any pictures of 4 A330s on the line it is probably taken from here.

Like this one: http://www.flickr.com/photos/aviaciondigital/5412855073/ ?
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:38 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 9):
Yeah - the A350 has instantly risen to near the top of my favorite looking aircraft with those babies!

Really? I don't think they fit with the rest of the wing design. To me, they somehow look like something that was mounted on an already existing design, like the 767 winglets.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:54 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 14):
Really? I don't think they fit with the rest of the wing design. To me, they somehow look like something that was mounted on an already existing design, like the 767 winglets.

I can see where you are coming from, but they look so damn good at the same time  

Certainly adds some interest and something distinctive to the aircraft.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:58 am

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 1):
First Photo in the database:

Are the engines mounted? One cannot say from the pic but I guess at the point where the plane is spending time outside, they must be on. No?
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:53 am

Quoting a380900 (Reply 16):
Are the engines mounted? One cannot say from the pic but I guess at the point where the plane is spending time outside, they must be on. No?

Nope, the engines will not be mounted until after she has been to the paint shop.
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:03 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 15):
I can see where you are coming from, but they look so damn good at the same time  

Certainly adds some interest and something distinctive to the aircraft.

This is also true.. I will wait with final verdict till I see the whole aircraft assembled and painted  
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:51 am

Ive got a question though, the A350 is supposed to have a composite structure, but why is it outside unpainted?? Shouldn't it be covered to the protect the surfaces from the UV rays? Or is it already protected in some other way like a protective coating being applied already?
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:01 am

So she's been outside for 10 days now, anyone knows how far along the station 18 test are?

Getting anxious to see her painted  
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:44 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 19):
Ive got a question though, the A350 is supposed to have a composite structure, but why is it outside unpainted?? Shouldn't it be covered to the protect the surfaces from the UV rays? Or is it already protected in some other way like a protective coating being applied already?

Already painted in Primer (green or yellow depending how you see it)
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:46 pm

Quoting bigsmile (Reply 21):
Already painted in Primer (green or yellow depending how you see it)

Thanks, thats what I was thinking.
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:52 pm

Another picture, MSN001 at station 18:


(uploaded by Flox Papa)

[Edited 2013-03-09 13:56:08]
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:13 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 23):

Thanks for sharing that photo Karel, it looks really nice at that angle, though if only it had some Trent XWB's on it...
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:04 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 24):
Thanks for sharing that photo Karel, it looks really nice at that angle, though if only it had some Trent XWB's on it...

Soon she will have them mounted under these beautiful wings.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 11):
Now that's some useful information! Thank you. There is almost nothing to find on the Internet about the A330 final assembly buildings.

Thanks to your digging work we now know more.  . The facilities look to be build pretty dense. Are they running out of space in Tolulouse?
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:09 pm

Very intersting winglets design; in my opinion they don't appear like the one on B767s, they fit perfctly on the wings!
[url="http://www.diecastmodelaircraft.com/collection/Lollomz"]Image[/url]
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:18 pm

Does anyone else see a hint of the 757 in the nose, at least from the profile? I can't decide if I like it or not, from some angles it looks fine while others (like the one in reply 23) it looks kind of stubby.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:09 pm

Quoting starbucks (Reply 20):
So she's been outside for 10 days now, anyone knows how far along the station 18 test are?

I learned that outdoor tests for the A330 last about 2 weeks so I don't expect MSN001 to be moved before the end of next week.
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:45 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 25):
Thanks to your digging work we now know more. . The facilities look to be build pretty dense. Are they running out of space in Tolulouse?

Bing maps shows an area North of the A380 complex as the site for phase 3, so there's still quite a bit left yet.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:41 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 28):
I learned that outdoor tests for the A330 last about 2 weeks so I don't expect MSN001 to be moved before the end of next week.

Ok, thanks, Just trying to get a timeline... End next week, 15/16 March.... 1 week for paint, 23/24 March.... Engine installation, 1/2 weeks... So rollout early April??   (hopefully... )
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:45 am

Loving the initial look of the A350. Of course lets see it fully painted up.

Overall it is/has been an exciting couple of years in civil aviaiton,I am enjoying all the developments and changes happening
....B787 (flying again soon I hope)....A350....C Series....A320 Sharklets.....A320NEO and B737MAX programs
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:41 pm

More winglet pictures.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PFBCdqjzq1U/UTuzbpq4nzI/AAAAAAAAC0w/HbRubKf04Os/s1600/image.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jlfCiRfJ7ZI/UTuzbQcV7dI/AAAAAAAAC0s/h609tkGLlIY/s1600/image.jpg

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EPA001
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:06 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):
More winglet pictures.

Thanks for posting. These wing-lets are absolutely gorgeous!  
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:12 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 33):
Thanks for posting. These wing-lets are absolutely gorgeous!  

They look far more "sharklet-y" than the A32x winglets. 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:48 pm

Quoting starbucks (Reply 30):
Ok, thanks, Just trying to get a timeline... End next week, 15/16 March.... 1 week for paint, 23/24 March.... Engine installation, 1/2 weeks... So rollout early April??   (hopefully... )

I think station 20 will take at least 2 weeks, maybe longer. It's not just attaching the engines but also checking if everything works, all the engine sensors etc. A roll out in the second half of April looks more likely.

It's also possible that Airbus will not show the complete airplane until the official roll out ceremony.
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FAEDC3
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:08 pm

That is some sexy sharklet... to me it looks like a flying Manta Ray

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmforster/219829995/
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:24 pm

Are this "historic" pictures of MSN 001 getting its winglets or which MSN is this?

Just out of curiousity: why no safety helmets when working with that gantry crane and moving objects? Naaah, these baseball caps will work fine in case something goes wrong...
 
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ER757
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):
More winglet pictures.

Beautiful.......I'll forgive the stubby-looking nose in reply 23 as long as these beauties are attached to the wings.
Really anticipating seeing it fully painted and also airborne!
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:26 am

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 37):
re this "historic" pictures of MSN 001 getting its winglets or which MSN is this?

Correct, these are the winglets of MSN001.
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ferpe
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:42 am

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 37):
Are this "historic" pictures of MSN 001 getting its winglets or which MSN is this?

This is MSN001, MSN003 which is next at FAL is not in station 30 yet, it should have entered station 40 and should have it's wings, pylons and vertical/horizontal tail fitted.

The picture is nice not only for showing the fitting of those gorgeous winglets or the real sharklets as they should be called (the A320 is just a blended winglet renamed to sharklet  ) but for showing the very distinctive A350 flaps deployed:



Airbus uses an inner and outer flap with a seamless join between them (left arrow, Boeing has a high speed aileron in between, it is discussed at length in the Airbus vs Boeing wing thread in Tech/Ops). This seamless join allows a very optimally shaped pressure distribution on the wings inner part. This is especially important at start as the designers fight for every % of lift versus drag (L/D) to allow max MTOW to be hauled while still being safe if one engine let's go.

Given the droop hinge principle of the A350 wing flaps such a join is a little tricky to get simple and efficient. Airbus solved it nicely by having the outer flap deploying straight back thus parallel to the inner flap. They also gain noise level by doing that (the under wing flap fairings does not go into the wind, generating turbulence and thus noise), this is especially important at landing when e.g. operating at LHR where Airport operation noise is a real issue. This importance will only augment and more and more airports will join LHR with such night flying rules.

The right arrow in the picture points to the area between outer flap and high speed or inner aileron, the gap between these is made a little more complicated as the outer flap now moves straight back and the aileron follow the wings trailing edge angle. When both are deployed (aileron droop for start and landing) there is a small gap on the inner part which closes when going to the aileron/flap tip. Airbus has made a fitting in between for sealing the gap at the non deployed position, this also holds the wing tank venting outlet.
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:59 am

beautiful! aside from that FUGLY nose and cockpit.....
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:00 am

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 37):
Just out of curiousity: why no safety helmets when working with that gantry crane and moving objects? Naaah, these baseball caps will work fine in case something goes wrong...

If anything breaks in this scenario a £3 safety helmet is totally useless. Their widespread use is just a result of our modern obsession with petty minded rules. They are very useful for what they are designed for which is to protect the head from small falling objects, on a building site they provide protection if a hammer or a brick falls off the scaffold onto someone below. They provide similar protection on other environments.
What they don't do is protect you from a falling load from a crane, being run over by a vehicle etc.

Their drawbacks include providing people with a false sense of security, and restricting vision, particularly when looking up.

Airbus Health & Safety obviously take a sensible approach to this.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:21 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
What they don't do is protect you from a falling load from a crane, being run over by a vehicle etc.

They would offer some protection against a stray load bearing strap swinging around with a bolt eye on the end, however....
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:21 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
If anything breaks in this scenario a £3 safety helmet is totally useless.... What they don't do is protect you from a falling load from a crane, being run over by a vehicle etc.

Their drawbacks include providing people with a false sense of security, and restricting vision, particularly when looking up.

Airbus Health & Safety obviously take a sensible approach to this.

I would say a safer approach from what you say - you are less likely to avoid injury if you wear a helmet.
 
starbucks
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:49 am

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 37):
Just out of curiousity: why no safety helmets when working with that gantry crane and moving objects? Naaah, these baseball caps will work fine in case something goes wrong...

It looks like one of these things: http://www.tuffcap.com, they're baseball caps with protection around the head... I would say that's enough for some stray bands swinging around?

And if they are normal caps, these offer some protection as well. Last year I bumped my head (really hard) onto the edge of a Fokker 70 NLG door, I got a pretty large bump on my head but no cuts or bleeding thanks to the cap I was wearing.
A couple of weeks later a colleague had the same, unfortunately he wasn't wearing one and he got a pretty deep cut in his head which had to be treated at the airport medical post (disinfected, glued, etc..)

Caps do protect! Not as much as a helmet or "Tuffcap" but there is some protection  

And now back on topic I would say? A350!  
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:00 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 40):
This is MSN001, MSN003 which is next at FAL is not in station 30 yet, it should have entered station 40 and should have it's wings, pylons and vertical/horizontal tail fitted.

Thanks for this information, and the rest of your very enlightening post. I have learned a thing or two from it.  
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:43 pm

The wings of MSN002 were transported to Bremen today by Beluga. I only saw the R/H wing leave, but assume the L/H already went.  
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:53 pm

Quoting Pugman211 (Reply 47):
The wings of MSN002 were transported to Bremen today by Beluga. I only saw the R/H wing leave, but assume the L/H already went.

Great, the first MSN001 wing left for Bremen 5 Sept and was at FAL 2 months later, lets assume things at Bremen take 1.5 month now, then we have MSN002 getting it's wings in Station 40 early May, sounds plausible. We should see MSN003 being rolled from Station 40 to 30 end of this month IMO, the FAL heart is starting to beat  angel  Big grin .

[Edited 2013-03-13 13:56:34]
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RE: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 8

Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:04 pm

The first wing of MSN001 was completed on October 13, so it takes about a month to outfit them.

Quote:
then we have MSN002 getting it's wings in Station 40 early May, sounds plausible.

Yes, and assembly can already start without the wings in station 50. I expect MSN002 to start final assembly somewhere next month.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK