cx828
Topic Author
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Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:28 am

SQ has the fifth freedom right to SFO via HKG and ICN and to LAX via TPE and NRT, which fifth freedom right did SQ exchange to respective government?? Can CX also apply the fifth freedom right to the state via Korea and Japan??
 
johnclipper
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Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:23 am

CX has fifth freedom between SIN and BKK and SIN and CMB I believe.
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flyingalex
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Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:47 am

Quoting cx828 (Thread starter):
SQ has the fifth freedom right to SFO via HKG and ICN and to LAX via TPE and NRT, which fifth freedom right did SQ exchange to respective government?? Can CX also apply the fifth freedom right to the state via Korea and Japan??

No, fifth freedom rights usually only work via logical intermediate points, and you need to have a through service that originates in the country the carrier is from. SIN-HKG-SFO and SIN-NRT-LAX make sense because NRT and HKG are on the way.

CX are not going to run HKG-NRT-SIN flights, not least because they probably would not get the rights for them from Japan. However, they do have this:

Quoting johnclipper (Reply 1):
CX has fifth freedom between SIN and BKK and SIN and CMB I believe.

They could, in theory, probably also do something like HKG-SIN-PER or HKG-SIN-JNB. Whether doing so would make economic sense is another question however.
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cx828
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Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:49 am

i mean can CX stop both at TPE, ICN or NRT and pick up customers and continue to LAX or SFO
 
johnclipper
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Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:11 am

CX also has fifth freedom TPE-FUK, TPE-ICN, TPE-KIX, TPE-NRT
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Carfield
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Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:22 am

Fifth freedom right used to be very important but with these new long haul jets, Cathay Pacific can fly nonstop to most US cities these days with its fleet of Boeing 777-300ERs, and these fifth freedom right may be useful for flights to Dallas or Florida, but Vancouver will most likely be CX's first choice. With American Airlines flying between Tokyo (and Seoul Incheon soon), CX is perhaps less interested in launching its own HKG-NRT/ICN/TPE-DFW service. There are these "Open Skies" agreement between countries, which basically refer to air services between two host countries, but fifth freedom rights have to be negotiated separately and tend to be restricted.

Hong Kong is very conservative when it comes to these kind of fifth freedom rights. It has relaxed a bit during the past decade, when Air New Zealand and Qantas were awarded the London flights (well both cancelled eventually), but cargo carriers need more fifth freedom rights and most talks about fifth freedom rights now concern them more than passenger flights. Kenya Airlines will have the fifth freedom rights on the HK to Dubai flight starting later this month, as well as Air Seychelles flight from Hong Kong to Abu Dhabi (onward to Mahe). But for the more lucrative flights to Europe (especially UK) and the North American regional (USA/Canada especially major cities), Hong Kong government is very protective of Cathay Pacific. However with nearby China airports offering unlimited fifth freedom rights to many cargo carriers especially, Hong Kong has relaxed a bit.

Hong Kong and Japan indeed has an Open Skies agreement, and both countries have unlimited passenger and cargo flights between Hong Kong and all Japanese cities, except Tokyo. Both countries signed the open sky agreement in 2008. Technically any Hong Kong or Japanese airline can start a route between Hong Kong and any city in Japan except Tokyo at any moment. Jetstar Hong Kong (once received its license) can fly between HK and Japan (except Tokyo) too.

Korea actually signed an Open Sky agreement with Mainland China last year, and they have negotiated limited fifth freedom rights. One Korean Airline can fly up to seven times a week from Korea to Europe via any point in China, and vice versa, one Mainland Airline can fly up to seven times a week from China to the US via any Korean city.

I google the topic and here is an agreement signed between HK and the US in 2002.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/130531.pdf

Airlines in Hong Kong actually have fifth freedom rights from HK to the US via Canada/Japan/South Korea... even France/Germany/Philippines, but many of the major airports, such as Tokyo or Frankfurt are either off limit or frequency is limited. Maybe more useful to cargo carriers though especially via secondary European cities.

US Airlines have the rights to fly from US to HKG onward to mostly Southeast Asian countries too. Technically, United can add up to twice daily flights between HKG and SIN, if it wants to or a second airline can be designated the route too. The Hong Kong to Tokyo flights - 14 frequencies are all taken up - Delta and UA each have one daily flight. Thailand/Vietnam/Malaysia are all on the list too.

However I am not sure if CX is particularly interested in the fifth freedom rights for flights to the US via Taiwan/South Korea/Japan. Hong Kong government possibly goes ahead with the Open Sky because CX wants more access to US markets and more frequencies, and to maintain the Vancouver to JFK flights. In reciprocity, Hong Kong government just gives more fifth freedom rights for US carriers to go to SE and South Asia via Hong Kong - something the US airlines want more of.

For your information, Hong Kong Civil Aviation Department also has all the air treaty available online, but they are all very generic with not much information about fifth freedom rights.

Carfield
 
cx828
Topic Author
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:16 am

So Hong Kong government give Air New zealand and QF the right to LHR, did CX get back one from HKG to let say LAX or SFO via SYD, MEL or AUK??
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:00 pm

Quoting cx828 (Reply 6):

HK airlines received more access to Australia. At the time, Dragonair was rumoured to be looking at flying to SYD too. In recent years, CX has used almost if not all of its allotment of Australia flight rights.
 
infinit
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:44 pm

Perhaps it would be interesting if HK gives SQ the right to fly from HKG to another US city and in exchange the Singapore government could grant CX the right to fly from SIN to an Indian city or another South Asian city given SIN's position in the South. I hear SQ/MI's Indian routes are among their highest yielding and I'm sure CX would be interested to increase its foothold in the region.
 
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Polot
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:33 pm

Quoting infinit (Reply 8):

It is a bit more complicated then that. I believe India would have a say on whether CX could fly via SIN or not based on their bilateral with Hong Kong (or China, whatever the appropriate party would be).
 
irregking
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:25 pm

SQ also has a 5th freedom right on the FRA-JFK vv. route operating SIN-FRA-JFK-FRA-SIN
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Viscount724
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:34 pm

Quoting cx828 (Reply 6):
So Hong Kong government give Air New zealand and QF the right to LHR, did CX get back one from HKG to let say LAX or SFO via SYD, MEL or AKL??

As already mentioned in another reply 5th freedom rights are intended as a by-product of 3rd and 4th freedom service, not as the primary reason for existence of a route. Nobody in their right mind would fly CX from HKG to LAX or SFO via SYD/MEL/AKL, so it would make no sense for the Australian or N.Z. govt. to grant 5th freedom rights to the U.S. for a HKG-based carrier, as all the traffic would local O&D traffic to/from Australia. HKG-SYD-LAX is 66% further than nonstop.
 
jfk777
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:20 pm

Many people go out of the way to fly Singapore Airlines, they do very well from SFO to Hing Kong and LAX to Tokyo. They fly A380's on both.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:29 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
Many people go out of the way to fly Singapore Airlines, they do very well from SFO to Hing Kong and LAX to Tokyo. They fly A380's on both.

Those SQ 5th freedom sectors aren't out of the way. They're nonstop and fully as direct as any other carriers operating those routes.
 
BommerJan
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:40 am

SQ also fly the legendary SIN-BCN-GRU-BCN-SIN with full 5th freedom rights between Spain and Brazil. Flew on all sectors and hardly anybody travels from SIN to GRU.
 
KLAXAirport
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:52 am

I was very surprised when I did JFK-FRA this summer on the SQ 380 how people actually do JFK-FRA-SIN. It seems like some people do not prefer to be in an airplane for 18+ hours on EWR-SIN. I was very impressed about SQ and it's 380 business class product to Europe and beyond.

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UALWN
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting BommerJan (Reply 14):
Flew on all sectors and hardly anybody travels from SIN to GRU.

Actually, I've taken BCN-SIN-BCN and BCN-GRU-BCN a number of times, and every time I've been surprised by the very significant amount of people that goes all the way SIN-BCN-GRU and back.
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The Coachman
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:18 am

Have to say I'm a little surprised that SQ (if they are able) haven't tried to launch SIN-HKG-JFK/EWR.

They have the B777-300ER to do it (whether they have enough maybe another question).

Actually, thinking about it again, UA may not want them to do it though if they timed it right, they could offer business travellers a timetable not too inferior to CX's.
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FlyingSicilian
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:34 am

SQ also has IAH-DME-SIN

I am not sure how many get on at DME for SIN but the Houston Airport system publishes the numbers for how many go IAH to DME vs on to SIN and back at www.fly2houston.com if you are interested in seeing pax numbers....
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huaiwei
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:50 am

Quoting KLAXAirport (Reply 15):
I was very surprised when I did JFK-FRA this summer on the SQ 380 how people actually do JFK-FRA-SIN.
Quoting UALWN (Reply 16):
I've been surprised by the very significant amount of people that goes all the way SIN-BCN-GRU and back.
Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 18):

I am not sure how many get on at DME for SIN but the Houston Airport system publishes the numbers for how many go IAH to DME vs on to SIN and back at www.fly2houston.com if you are interested in seeing pax numbers....

I recall numbers showing significant numbers flying from SIN all the way to IAH and back as well.

So contrary to popular believe, there is actually significant point-to-point flying between all of these routes which many in a.net believe are supported overwhelmingly by fifth-freedom rights.

Quoting The Coachman (Reply 17):
UA may not want them to do it

Does SQ really cares what UA thinks in this regard? I would think they are influenced more by profits and the ability to obtain the necessary rights to fly these routes!
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factsonly
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:16 am

Over the years SQ has used a wide variety of 5th freedom rights in Europe:

- AMS-YYZ
- AMS-ORD
- AMS-JFK
- AMS-EWR
- AMS-MAN
- AMS-LHR
- AMS-VIE
- AMS-ZRH
- AMS-FCO
- AMS-CAI
- AMS-MLE
- AMS-BAH
- AMS-MLA

- MAN-MUC
- MAN-ZRH
- MAN-CDG
- MAN-BOM
- MAN-FCO
- MAN-BRU

- LHR-BAH
- LHR-FRA
- LHR-ZRH
- LHR-FCO
- LHR-BOM

etc, etc, etc,
 
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huaiwei
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:40 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 20):
Over the years SQ has used a wide variety of 5th freedom rights in Europe:

Isn't it such that many airlines flew such routes back in the 1970s - 1980s, but are not allowed fifth freedom rights?
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factsonly
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:27 pm

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 21):
Isn't it such that many airlines flew such routes back in the 1970s - 1980s, but are not allowed fifth freedom rights?


SQ was selling tickets / carrying local traffic on all of these sectors.
 
airbazar
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:13 pm

Quoting The Coachman (Reply 17):
Have to say I'm a little surprised that SQ (if they are able) haven't tried to launch SIN-HKG-JFK/EWR.

With something like 4x daily, SQ would have a hard time competing with CX.
 
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huaiwei
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:00 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 22):
SQ was selling tickets / carrying local traffic on all of these sectors.

Really? I stand corrected then...although I distinctly remember others saying this was not so.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 23):
With something like 4x daily, SQ would have a hard time competing with CX.

SQ also flies SIN-HKG-SFO. I doubt that route lacks competition.
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AngMoh
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 23):
With something like 4x daily, SQ would have a hard time competing with CX.

No need to compete with CX. Just fill up the plane with Star Alliance members (the bulk will come from SIN anyway) who would otherwise fly UA.
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DTWLAX
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:32 pm

Quoting The Coachman (Reply 17):
Have to say I'm a little surprised that SQ (if they are able) haven't tried to launch SIN-HKG-JFK/EWR.

Why will they do that when they already fly SIN-FRA-JFK?
SIN-HKG-JFK/EWR is also about 600 miles longer than SIN-FRA-JFK.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 23):
With something like 4x daily, SQ would have a hard time competing with CX.

And they can also fill up the plane with more Star Alliance passengers via FRA.
 
airbazar
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:46 pm

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 24):
SQ also flies SIN-HKG-SFO. I doubt that route lacks competition.

I don't think so. CX only has 2 daily to SFO. JFK is a OW hub so HKG-NYC is a hub-to-hub route for OW. Not only is SFO a *A hub with a lot of onward connections, but SFO (and Calif. in general), is a far bigger market from Singapore and Asia, than NYC. NYC for SQ is just a "status" destination.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 25):
No need to compete with CX. Just fill up the plane with Star Alliance members (the bulk will come from SIN anyway)

They can do that a lot more efficiently via FRA, which is a *A fortess hub and SQ has a far better relationship with LH than with UA.

Quoting dtwlax (Reply 26):
Why will they do that when they already fly SIN-FRA-JFK?

  
 
Viscount724
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:02 am

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 21):
Quoting factsonly (Reply 20):
Over the years SQ has used a wide variety of 5th freedom rights in Europe:

Isn't it such that many airlines flew such routes back in the 1970s - 1980s, but are not allowed fifth freedom rights?

It was a mix. Some carriers had 5th freedom rights on certain sectors but not all, and some had no 5th freedom rights but still operated between some European points since there wasn't enough demand for the longhaul sectors otherwise.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:49 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):
Not only is SFO a *A hub with a lot of onward connections, but SFO (and Calif. in general), is a far bigger market from Singapore and Asia, than NYC. NYC for SQ is just a "status" destination.

2011 Numbers

Asia

NYC (LGA/EWR/JFK) 4.7 Million

SFO/OAK - 3.4 million


Singapore 2011 O+D

JFK/EWR/LGA 112608

SFO/OAK - 93952


154 PDEW is probably a bit higher traffic number for your usual "status destination"

SFO has more passengers in certain markets though (MNL, TPE, SGN)

Quoting KLAXAirport (Reply 15):

I was very surprised when I did JFK-FRA this summer on the SQ 380 how people actually do JFK-FRA-SIN.

A lot of those people are also going to other places SQ and MI fly to.... KUL, CGK, HKT, DPS for starters,
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flyingalex
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RE: Various SQ Fifth Freedom Rights

Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:56 am

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 29):
154 PDEW is probably a bit higher traffic number for your usual "status destination"

Another thing to keep in mind is that New York and Singapore are important financial and corporate centers (quite a few corporations whose World HQ is in or near New York have a regional HQ in Singapore), so there is lucrative business traffic to be had. The stop in FRA ties in a third major finance center.
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