sjc30l
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Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:57 pm

"Boeing’s board of directors is expected to decide as early as its next meeting in April whether to give the Commercial Airplanes division authority to offer the proposed 777X derivative to airlines"

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_03_11_2013_p0-557402.xml
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:04 pm

I followed the ISTAT updates on Twitter. Boeing aims to have a 777-9X with 406 seats by late 2019 and a 777-8LX with 353 seats in 2021. Especially Emirates is focusing on the latter.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
PHX787
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:04 pm

And let the speculation on launch customers begin   

Airlines I see operating this:

EK (launch) UA DL AA (MAYBE!) BA (744 replacement) CX QF CZ NH NZ and KE.

I want your opinions on those above!
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:07 pm

On the engine side, with the 777-200LR and 777-300ER only CX and AA were said to be hold-outs for RR power and both now operate the 777-300ER so I think Boeing could successfully just offer the GE9X on the 777X.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:13 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
Boeing could successfully just offer the GE9X on the 777X.

   And even the A350 is selling very good with only 1 engine offer. This should not be a problem.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:16 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
Boeing aims to have a 777-9X with 406 seats by late 2019 and a 777-8LX with 353 seats in 2021.

Looks like Boeing is sizing the 777-8 with the 777-300ER, which was the right call, IMO.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:26 pm

There was also a 777X rendering but without folding wingtips this time.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BFFCdFkCEAELelI.jpg:large
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
cobra27
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:26 pm

Will they use composites or will it be like A320NEO or 737 MAX?
 
sjc30l
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:27 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
I followed the ISTAT updates on Twitter. Boeing aims to have a 777-9X with 406 seats by late 2019 and a 777-8LX with 353 seats in 2021. Especially Emirates is focusing on the latter.

What routes would EK use the 8LX on? I was thinking that originally they were focused on the 9X
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting sjc30l (Reply 8):
What routes would EK use the 8LX on?

No idea.

Quoting sjc30l (Reply 8):
I was thinking that originally they were focused on the 9X

The 777-8LX will have a greater range (over 9000nm) and range + payload = EK.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
sjc30l
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:33 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
There was also a 777X rendering but without folding wingtips this time.

I know it's just a conceptual rendering, but it looks like there are no chevrons on the nacelles for the 777X like with the 787 and 737 MAX
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:33 pm

Quoting sjc30l (Reply 8):
What routes would EK use the 8LX on?

Missions like DXB-LAX/SFO where they are significantly payload-limited on the 777-300ER. It would also allow them to up-gauge 777-200LR routes like DXB-IAH where cargo demand is high (and the 777-300ER lacks the usable payload weight even if it had plenty of volume).
 
TP313
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Looks like Boeing is sizing the 777-8 with the 777-300ER, which was the right call, IMO.

Huh? Doesn't look like that to me: 353 at 10 abreast is not the same as 365 at 9 abreast

That ULH 350 seater may appeal to Emirates and a few other airlines but I'm not seeing much of a market for the -8
(although an 8-F will sell).

The -9, OTOH, will most likely be a best seller, as the ideal 744 replacement.

[Edited 2013-03-11 09:46:29]
 
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:17 pm

EK could do a mix of the -8LX and -9 in their order. The -8LXs would be ideal to IAH, DFW, LAX and SFO with SEA also as a possibility if demand picks up.

It isn't just about the range number. By fly to places below their max range, they have the chance to load more cargo on board which is a real money maker for airlines.
 
TP313
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:25 pm

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 13):
It isn't just about the range number. By fly to places below their max range, they have the chance to load more cargo on board which is a real money maker for airlines.

That has got the 772LR nowhere...
 
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:25 pm

Why are they again using an old design instead of developing a new plane like Airbus does with the A330 to A350?
 
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:35 pm

Delighted to hear about the impending launch (which will no doubt allow Boeing to take the focus off the 787 for a while!), but surprised that EK would choose the 779X instead of the -8; I always had them pencilled in as a likely 779X airlines; I'd expect this to be by far the most successful of the two.

Any chance the 778LX would allow airlines to fly PER-LON nonstop?
 
sjc30l
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
Why are they again using an old design instead of developing a new plane like Airbus does with the A330 to A350?

I would think it has to do with the significant amount more time and (scarce) resources that would need to be devoted to an all new program vs building on an existing platform.
 
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
Why are they again using an old design instead of developing a new plane like Airbus does with the A330 to A350?

My point exactly, I assumed that also. I don't especially like A320 and 737 modifications. Maybe we need a third player to change the duopoly. Also the budget to start an airliner is 5-15 billions when we talk A or B. With all the experience in building aircraft over the decade, cost should be lower, especially when making a conventional aircraft
 
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:40 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
and a 777-8LX with 353 seats in 2021

Wow. Pitching it up directly against the A350-1000. That's confident.
 
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:47 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 19):

I am assuming the 1000 will do better on shorter segments and the 8X will fly further ?
 
TP313
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:53 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 19):
Wow. Pitching it up directly against the A350-1000. That's confident.

If they did the -8 with 386 seats (at 10 abreast) it would have a much better chance against the 350.
This way it will suffer from the same disadvantages as shrinked designs like the 358...
 
TP313
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:55 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 20):
I am assuming the 1000 will do better on shorter segments and the 8X will fly further ?

You're quite right.
 
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:10 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
Why are they again using an old design instead of developing a new plane like Airbus does with the A330 to A350?

The airlines won't wait for a clean sheet design, and Boeing does not want to invest the money. Airbus was forced into the A350 by customer pressure based on PR for the 787, which I think we all (including me, one of the biggest 787 boosters) was overhyped. It is not that a clean sheet design would not be better, it is that customers, having been burned once by the 787 delays and problems, will not wait a second time and risk a similar outcome. Part of this is perhaps unfair, as hopefully the 787's teething problems will not be repeated, and a 777 replacement would go a bit smoother and more on schedule. But it is still a monstrous risk, one which the Boeing board undoubtedly does not want to take when the 777X will be adequate to maintain Boeing's lead in that market segment. Remember, the enemy of the "perfect" is the "good enough." Boeing is not in business to make the perfect airliner; they are in business to make money, and in this case they undoubtedly figure "good enough" will make more money than "perfect." All of this is assuming that the 777X will in fact be competitive with the A350-1000, which from what I have read seems to be the case.
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:13 pm

Boeing aims to have a 777-9X with 406 seats by late 2019

To replace the 748i whose production run will have finished by then.
 
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:14 pm

If the 778X is matching the 3ER in size, then the 779X is a 748i killer.

I know many on here think it is already a dead duck, but does this confirm that Boeing agree?
 
airproxx
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:26 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
EK (launch) UA DL AA (MAYBE!) BA (744 replacement) CX QF CZ NH NZ and KE.

I wish we could add AF/KL to the list  
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:28 pm

I know very well that John Leahy has said that the 350 will not be stretched further than the 1000. However, when the 777x is locked in its design and there is no way back for Boeing even he might change his mind....

So the questions is: how much more could the 350 be stretched beyond the 1000 if Airbus decides that they want to help Boeing keep honest with the 777x?
 
airproxx
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:35 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 19):

Wow. Pitching it up directly against the A350-1000. That's confident.
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 20):
I am assuming the 1000 will do better on shorter segments and the 8X will fly further ?

So one is good on short legs, while the other is good on long journeys? Doesn't make sense to me.
If you have a) payload, and b) range + payload, then why bother have a)?
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:38 pm

Quoting airproxx (Reply 28):
Quoting YTZ (Reply 19):

Wow. Pitching it up directly against the A350-1000. That's confident.
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 20):
I am assuming the 1000 will do better on shorter segments and the 8X will fly further ?

So one is good on short legs, while the other is good on long journeys? Doesn't make sense to me.
If you have a) payload, and b) range + payload, then why bother have a)?

I think much of this is premature until the 77X design is locked and we get a handle on the numbers for some of our regular A.net contributors to crunch.

Once they come in, we can look at fuel burned per hour, CASM, cargo and range numbers to get a better comparison.
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:45 pm

Quoting FlyingCello (Reply 25):
If the 778X is matching the 3ER in size, then the 779X is a 748i killer.

I know many on here think it is already a dead duck, but does this confirm that Boeing agree?

I honestly think Boeing does not agree. There is a 61 passenger difference, just as large as the difference between the 77L and 77W or 779X and 778X.

Furthermore, as everyone always compares the 748i cabin area to the A388, which has more area per passenger than any aircraft, they neglect to mention that the same holds true for the 777 vs the A388.

406 seats in a "typical" airline configuration for the 779X is just as "unrealistic" as 467 in the 748i in terms of square footage per passenger.

Plus, the 748i can add 12 additional seats by implementing the upper galley stowage option, raising capacity to 479 pax.
 
TP313
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:52 pm

Quoting airproxx (Reply 28):
So one is good on short legs, while the other is good on long journeys? Doesn't make sense to me.
If you have a) payload, and b) range + payload, then why bother have a)?

Because b) may be substantially heavier than a). See 772ER vs. 333
 
TP313
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:06 pm

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 30):
I honestly think Boeing does not agree.

I see it in the opposite way. Boeing is finally getting serious about the VLA market, building the first VLA twin: the 779X.

The 779X CASM numbers may well be better than those of the A388, and then Boeing could unexpectedly get the upper hand in the VLA market.

And if the 388 is threatened, you might be sure the 748 is dead and burried...

The same way I am skeptical about the 778X, I am very optimistic about the 779X.

[Edited 2013-03-11 12:09:20]
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:20 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
EK (launch) UA DL AA (MAYBE!) BA (744 replacement) CX QF CZ NH NZ and KE.

I want your opinions on those above!

EK is a given assuming they have their say in the design for both the 777-8 and -9. They have markets for both.

UA is a maybe.
DL is certain IMHO
AA... I think they're recovered enough, but perhaps not at launch.

CX, CZ, NH, and KE seem like givens. I expect the others, but later.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 9):
The 777-8LX will have a greater range (over 9000nm) and range + payload = EK.

For some. But this is a 77L replacement for EK. I expect the bulk of their orders to be -9s. Most of the Americas will be served by the longer range versions of the A380 that will be delivered later this year (wing twist, higher MTOW).

Lightsaber
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usscvr
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
Why are they again using an old design instead of developing a new plane like Airbus does with the A330 to A350?

Tried & true. Not to be a naysayer, but with the issues currently facing the 787 (and any 'new' launch for that matter), stick to what you know that works to bolster the bottom line - IMO.
A:319/320/321/332/333||B:717/721/722/735/737/738/739/742/744/753/762/763/772/773/787||DC8/9/MD80/GF14/C5/C130/C141
 
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
EK is a given assuming they have their say in the design for both the 777-8 and -9. They have markets for both.

UA is a maybe.
DL is certain IMHO
AA... I think they're recovered enough, but perhaps not at launch.

CX, CZ, NH, and KE seem like givens. I expect the others, but later

Why is UA a maybe for this aircraft? I think the 779x would be a great replacement for the 744 fleet and UA already said that our current A359 order does not represent a true replacement for the 744 fleet and no I don't think UA will cancel the A359 order but I do think this aircraft will work for the combined UA not just as a replacement for 744 but also as a capacity increase on certain routes out of EWR,IAD and IAH
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:12 pm

More pictures are popping up.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BFGTIpzCIAAf1uW.jpg:large

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BFGStP7CMAAEg-1.jpg:large
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
sjc30l
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:12 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
Airlines I see operating this:

EK (launch) UA DL AA (MAYBE!) BA (744 replacement) CX QF CZ NH NZ and KE.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
EK is a given assuming they have their say in the design for both the 777-8 and -9. They have markets for both.

UA is a maybe.
DL is certain IMHO
AA... I think they're recovered enough, but perhaps not at launch.

CX, CZ, NH, and KE seem like givens. I expect the others, but later.

I haven't seen SQ mentioned yet. I know they have both A359 and 77W on order, but would the 777-8 or -9 fit in their longer term plans?
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:10 pm

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BFGaKvjCUAABbsl.jpg:large
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting TP313 (Reply 14):
That has got the 772LR nowhere...

That's pretty much gotten it to where it is today. There aren't many airlines using the LR for what it marketed for to begin with - the 9,400nm range. They are using it to cover the same routes the ER can do. Just with more stuff below.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:29 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
Why are they again using an old design instead of developing a new plane like Airbus does with the A330 to A350?

Airbus' first response to the 787 was to do the original A350 vs the XWB. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that that might have been a perfectly acceptable response in hindsight.

Quoting cobra27 (Reply 18):
My point exactly, I assumed that also. I don't especially like A320 and 737 modifications. Maybe we need a third player to change the duopoly.

I'm sure we'll get more players, but I don't see how that will make things better in this regard. Less orders per manufacturer combined with a steady stream of all new designs? Sounds like MD part 2.

Quoting cobra27 (Reply 18):
so the budget to start an airliner is 5-15 billions when we talk A or B. With all the experience in building aircraft over the decade, cost should be lower, especially when making a conventional aircraft

Can you perhaps itemize where you think the costs should be?

Quoting FlyingCello (Reply 25):
If the 778X is matching the 3ER in size, then the 779X is a 748i killer.

EVERYTHING is a 748i killer at this point. The poor thing's on life support as it is.

-Dave
-Dave
 
davs5032
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:05 pm

Quoting TP313 (Reply 32):
The same way I am skeptical about the 778X, I am very optimistic about the 779X.

I feel the same way. The 779X should be very successful, and Boeing shouldn't be concerned with killing off the 748i b/c it's already dead, IMO. The 778X is an interesting case, as it will work with the same blueprint that failed with the 772...however the fact that they've at least lengthened it to nearly 6m longer than the 772 will give it enough extra capacity to have a fighting chance. By the same token, however, it will have a more formidable competitor in the A35J that the 772 didn't have to go up against. At the end of the day, the GE9X will have a big say in how competitive the 77-8X can be. (It will, at the least, be a hell of a freighter.)
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:09 pm

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 41):
(It will, at the least, be a hell of a freighter.)

That fact in the end justifies the launch of this a/c. They won't garner as many orders for the -8LX as the -9 but they'll get a decent number plus it will make a great freighter which means Boeing should make money on the a/c even if they only get 50-100 orders for the -8LX.
 
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nimool
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:24 am

First i wish they get the 787s back to service ASAP, and then start their new project. 777X would be superb!
"The extended twinjet series will include a 777-8X, sized to succeed today’s 777-300ER, and a larger 777-9X which opens up new territory in the 400-plus seat, long range market."
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TWA772LR
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:33 am

I thought the 778X was going to be between the size of the 772LR and 773ER? And then the 779X was going to be longer than the 773ER?
Not every day we find light winds. What do we do in these situations? Fly.
 
atlflyer
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 44):

You are correct.
 
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Dan23
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:28 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 16):
Any chance the 778LX would allow airlines to fly PER-LON nonstop?

That should be the case but wouldn't the route already be feasible (range-wise) utilising the 777-200LR, 787-9 or A350-900?
146, 319, 320, 332, 333, 380, 717, 733, 734, 73H, 743, 744, 752, 763, 772, 77W, 788, AT7, CR7, DH1, DHT, EM2
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:56 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
NZ

The 787-10X if it comes out at 7150nm will be all NZ needs if they pull back over time to the Pacific rim. I would be interested to know the term of the lease for the 2 additional 77W 's announced last week.
 
PHX787
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:53 am

Quoting airproxx (Reply 26):
I wish we could add AF/KL to the list

Don't they still have 744s? Or maybe they wanna replace those with A380s or (PLEASE GOD!) 748s  
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
DL is certain IMHO

Lightsaber thanks for your reply and your expertise!
Is this gonna be a 744 replacement or 772 replacement?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
AA... I think they're recovered enough, but perhaps not at launch.

Yeah agreed maybe about 10 years down the road or so

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
CX, CZ, NH, and KE seem like givens. I expect the others, but later.

What about JL? Note I didn't post that one because of their financial situation recovery.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 35):

Why is UA a maybe for this aircraft? I think the 779x would be a great replacement for the 744 fleet

The A350 was supposed to cover a lot of the 744 fleet.

Quoting sjc30l (Reply 37):
I haven't seen SQ mentioned yet. I know they have both A359 and 77W on order, but would the 777-8 or -9 fit in their longer term plans?

I honestly don't know which direction they're going to run. The 77W is supposed to be the replacement for their old 744s, along with the A380. A359 is assumingly for other airbus aiirplanes.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
PA515
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RE: Boeing Nears Authority To Offer 777X

Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:56 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 47):
I would be interested to know the term of the lease for the 2 additional 77W 's announced last week.

No term mentioned in the ALC Press Release but BA are leasing their two 77W's from ALC for 10 years.

PA515