Gonzalo
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:33 am

Although I have the greatest respect for any pilot, and specially for ex-Concorde pilots, I think this proposal to bust capacity in LHR is really un-orthodox. Captain William 'Jock' Lowe, who was Concorde’s longest serving pilot, is proposing that the existing northern and southern runways be extended from 3,900 metres and 3,700 metres to 7,500 metres.
This extension would allow aircraft to land and take off at the same time increasing the passenger capacity from 70 million to 140 million.

How will be handled a Go Around situation under this scenario of simultaneous landings and take offs in the same runway ? Doesn't the chances of a "piggyback" situation increases too much with this ??

Financial Times Link :

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/f0a05...3f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2NK99WP3a

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TC957
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:54 am

And the runways would be doubled in length how exactly ?
 
ajd1992
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:10 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 1):
And the runways would be doubled in length how exactly ?

Nah, it's alright, Slough is a craphole anyway....  

I do think this is a stupid idea of the highest order. Two go around at the same time heading towards each other? I can't POSSIBLY see what could go wrong there.....
 
tonystan
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:10 pm

Yeah cos there is so much space available!!!!

A lot of hot air blowing out ofsomeones mouth there!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
abrown532
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:15 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 2):
Two go around at the same time heading towards each other? I can't POSSIBLY see what could go wrong there.....

That wouldn't happen as due to the wind situation, both the takeoff's/Landings/Go-arounds would all be going the same direction so there is never the need for a head-on situation.
 
gilesdavies
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:19 pm

I really think it could work...

They could build an intersection on the M25 where the Motorway and Runways meet. When an aircraft is taking off/landing the barriers come down and the traffic waits for the aircraft to clear the runway. Then everyone on the M25 continues of their merry way!

It works for Gibraltar airport, why not Heathrow?!

[Edited 2013-03-12 05:21:22]
 
nonrev
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:56 pm

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):

I assume this is a joke, you have driven on the M25 before, right?
 
Gonzalo
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:01 pm

    I just noted that I wrote "bust" instead of "boost" in the title ( Moderators, Help !! ) ...although apparently there is not much of a difference considering the feelings this idea generates !!!!  
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
I really think it could work...

They could build an intersection on the M25 where the Motorway and Runways meet.

I think that is probably the easy part of the project.... you can go with the M25 under the runway ( there are several highways going under runways all over the world ). I think the problems are more related with the simultaneous landings and take offs, but that is just my opinion...

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parapente
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:05 pm

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/pub...eter-the-right-answer-for-aviation

In actual fact his idea is a "spin off" of the policy exhange's proposal late last year. As you can see what they recommended was "shifting" Heathrows runways a mile to the west and "pairing" them (and introducing a 5% glide slope).However it left about 80% of the existing Heathrow infrastructure intact. Many (including myself) felt that this was a very elegant and cost effective 'actionable' plan.

This one appears to be even simpler/cheaper still.

The fact is that the UK MUST have a bigger hub and it CAN'T afford any of the 'pie in the sky' schemes that certain people want. Either of these 2 schemes can be done and can be afforded.The clever thing is that by expanding the capacity you can negate the need for any night time T/O's or Landings. This is the major (only?)real bugbear for Londoners.

BTW create a Rail hub (as proposed by Arup) next to Heathrow that connects the (soon to be electrified) London-West rail,with.HS2 to Birmingham and the North, with HS1 and you suddenly get an affordable,deliverable, joined up transport policy - but that would be far too much to ask from our politicians  
 
jfk777
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:06 pm

This could be the least controversial proposal for solving Heathrow's runway capacity problem. The Estuary Airport is really "out" there. Moving the runways west and having 4 runways would work too. Whatever the UK does please do it soon.
 
parapente
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:09 pm

jfk777 - Hear hear- you can take over from Mayor Boris any day you like! (wish someone would)
 
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CCA
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:12 pm

I'm not saying its a good idea but there's nothing to stop go arounds requiring an immediate right/left turn 30/45/90 degrees at say 500' to put the A/C on different tracks, plus depending on where A/C are on approach vs the A/C cleared for takeoff they could be up to 3-5 miles apart at lift off.

I've done a go around at 100' with an A/C on the runway it lifted off as we passed around 700' we simply turned right to not stay on the same track. In the above situation the A/C would have been at least 3 miles ahead of us certainly a lot less dangerous.
P1 in A330, A340, A346, B742, B744, B748.
 
1400mph
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:17 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
Whatever the UK does please do it soon.

Amen to that.

However, none of the political parties in the UK are anywhere near strong enough to absorb the ferocious fall-out that would be created by big segments of the electorate.

Also if the EU continues its arbitrary assault on the city of London then traffic (that pays anyway) might start declining.
 
bthebest
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:17 pm

So its pretty much the same as building a new runway at either end of the existing ones?

Would you have departing aircraft entering the runway halfway down, and landing ones with the same existing thresholds?
 
bennett123
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:28 pm

Well LHR does have flights every 2 mins.

Sounds like fun.
 
gilesdavies
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:40 pm

Quoting NonRev (Reply 6):
I assume this is a joke, you have driven on the M25 before, right?

Yes it was a joke and my usual sarcasm!  

I have the joy of driving on the M25 several times a week.
 
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CARST
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:16 pm



On another thread a year or more ago I proposed the options above. Both are kind of MAD style layout, offering a 4 runway operation, simultaneously, without the need to reclaim land or move one house. You would just have to build some tunnels for the M25. I think that is a perfect layout and solution for LHR.

[Edited 2013-03-12 07:59:02]
 
PlymSpotter
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:30 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Captain William 'Jock' Lowe, who was Concorde’s longest serving pilot, is proposing that the existing northern and southern runways be extended from 3,900 metres and 3,700 metres to 7,500 metres.

Highly unfeasible in reality I'm afraid. There are better locations than this.

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
This extension would allow aircraft to land and take off at the same time increasing the passenger capacity from 70 million to 140 million.

Maybe - I'm not sure how tight the proposal would place the departing threshold to the baulked landing surface of the arrival runway.

Quoting parapente (Reply 8):
However it left about 80% of the existing Heathrow infrastructure intact.

Unfortunately when you looked at it from a technical perspective it would require the demolition of Terminal 5, wouldn't safely be able to achieve the proposed level of operation, and generally was severely flawed.


Dan  
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jayeshrulz
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:43 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 7):
I just noted that I wrote "bust" instead of "boost" in the title ( Moderators, Help !! ) ...although apparently there is not much of a difference considering the feelings this idea generates !!!!

HAHAHAHA bust sounds perfecttt!  
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):

I am assuming this is a joke?     

Jokes apart, its crap coming from the highest order. Two airplanes are not permitted on the same runway for landing/takeoff at any time.
I'll take this with a pinch of salt.
Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
 
mainMAN
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:52 pm

I'm still going with my double deck runway system, whereby landings arrive on the top deck, departures from the lower.......and reaching the required speed to lift off just as they appear in the open air  
 
b2319
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:33 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
This extension would allow aircraft to land and take off at the same time increasing the passenger capacity from 70 million to 140 million.

I've only had the 'pleasure' of using LHR three times in the last 5 years, & I do admit that last time, though, Terminal 5 was a big improvement over the likes of Terminal 2, with its claustriphobia and garish neon lighting.

However, does extending the runway automatically double the airport's capacity, which is inferred in what I quote? Isn't there a time where the infrastructure e.g. terminal capacity starts to creak?

I sympathise with others' views on UK politicians, past, present and future, and their inability to make sensible decisions on behalf of the UK. One of the reasons why I left the country, though don't want to take the thread off-topic.....   

Regards

B-2319
 
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ADent
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:51 pm

The worlds busiest airport uses something like this configuration, IIRC - Oshkosh during EAA Airventure.
 
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7BOEING7
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:57 pm

Not such a strange idea, I learned to fly that way. Nothing like dozens of 21/22 year old future Navy pilots with inflated egos trying to land and takeoff on the same runway with T-34's. With modern aircraft and real pilots landing and taking off on thee same runway has to be a lot safer.
 
sandyb123
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:30 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
This could be the least controversial proposal for solving Heathrow's runway capacity problem

I actually think there is some Merit in this idea. Depending on how you define 'runway' then you could run the same piece of tarmac as two seperate runways. Go-arounds would require a defined departure to avoid Airprox.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 1):
And the runways would be doubled in length how exactly ?
Quoting TC957 (Reply 1):
Nah, it's alright, Slough is a craphole anyway....  

Depending on how much civil engineering you want to do (bridging M25 and claiming land from the Wraysbury reservoir) it would be possible to extend the runways west and effectively double the length.

Quoting CARST (Reply 16):
On another thread a year or more ago I proposed the options above.

this is an interesting proposal and is similar to the Polderbaan at AMS. I can see this working although longer taxi times might not be popular.

Although there would be little displacement of existing property (mostly low-grade industrial) the new runways would eat into a lot of parkland / green land and the NIMBYs will never allow that!

Sandyb123
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1400mph
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:44 pm

Quoting b2319 (Reply 20):
I've only had the 'pleasure' of using LHR three times in the last 5 years, & I do admit that last time, though, Terminal 5 was a big improvement over the likes of Terminal 2, with its claustriphobia and garish neon lighting.
Quoting b2319 (Reply 20):
I sympathise with others' views on UK politicians, past, present and future, and their inability to make sensible decisions on behalf of the UK. One of the reasons why I left the country, though don't want to take the thread off-topic.....

The recently built Terminal 5 was voted one of the worlds' best not so long ago.

Heathrow is the worlds' busiest 'international' airport and a very big majority of its users now rate it as an excellent airport.

Terminal 2 has been razed and the new Terminal 2 will be on a par with Terminal 5.

Terminal 1 will be closed by the end of 2014. It is expected to be demolished shortly thereafter to make way for the second phase of Terminal 2.

A new baggage system connecting to Terminal 5 (for British Airways connections) to Terminal 3 is currently under construction. In addition to the baggage system, the baggage claim hall is also set to undergo changes with dedicated A380 belts and an improved design and layout.

During the very successful London Olympics some 240,000 people passed daily through the airport without a hitch.

So, all in all one can hardly accuse the UK of standing still on LHR.

[Edited 2013-03-12 09:48:07]
 
Gonzalo
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting b2319 (Reply 20):
However, does extending the runway automatically double the airport's capacity, which is inferred in what I quote? Isn't there a time where the infrastructure e.g. terminal capacity starts to creak?

SCL and LHR are totally different animals, but if experience with smaller airports is permitted, I will say you have a very good point. A few years back SCL get its second runway, but the terminal was not modified. Today there are certain days/hours where you can be waiting at least 10 minutes for a gate/bridge, and that is exactly the scenario you would get in LHR unless you build new terminals.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 23):
the new runways would eat into a lot of parkland / green land and the NIMBYs will never allow that!

NIMBY's ?? What NIMBY's ??     

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PlymSpotter
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Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:54 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 23):
Depending on how much civil engineering you want to do (bridging M25 and claiming land from the Wraysbury reservoir) it would be possible to extend the runways west and effectively double the length.

Both reservoirs would be completely removed in such a situation. They are contained within elevated banks, not sunk into the ground.


Dan  
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hivue
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:18 pm

Sounds a lot like RVSM for take offs. Why not?
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alfa164
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:25 pm

"end-to-end is what he is proposing; would it not be better (and there should be enough room) to stagger them slightly - say 150-200 feet. That would provide a little extra assurance in case a go-around was necessary.
 
kl911
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:40 pm

Why does London need those extra runways? I don't mean the airport but the city.


* A lot of traffic via LHR is connecting, and can be moved to other airports like MAN, AMS, FRA, CDG etc.

* O&D pax can be spread over LTN, LHR ,STN and LGW after upgrading infrastructure with high-speed transport to the city.

* No charter/holiday flights from LHR, use LTN, STN and LGW.
 
b2319
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:41 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 24):
The recently built Terminal 5 was voted one of the worlds' best not so long ago.

Maybe. Behind ICN, SIN and HKG would be my guess. You are free to provide a link/source.  
Quoting 1400mph (Reply 24):
Heathrow is the worlds' busiest 'international' airport and a very big majority of its users now rate it as an excellent airport.

I agree it has improved from 2007 to 2012.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 24):
Terminal 2 has been razed and the new Terminal 2 will be on a par with Terminal 5.

From memory, T2 didn't share the same footprint as T5. If it is as 'airy', then I welcome this.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 24):
During the very successful London Olympics some 240,000 people passed daily through the airport without a hitch.

Yes, by all accounts London Olympics was successful on many metrics. However.....

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 24):
So, all in all one can hardly accuse the UK of standing still on LHR.

According to some of the winter weather threads on this very forum, this is an airport reportedly and repeatedly being operated at 95% of its design capacity. Are you (a) denying it is a slot-restricted airport or (b) can you provide a source that any recent UK goverment has actively tried to address this important issue?

Travel, like many things, is subjective. I was pleasantly surprised both with BA168/9 to from PVG, and with Terminal 5 in 2012. I would choose other airports to transit to fly PVG to GLA or EDI; notably AMS or DXB, as I have a preference for GLA; however, when the company is paying, I don't have a great say in the matter.

Credit where credit is due, eh?

Regards

B-2319
 
PlymSpotter
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 29):
Why does London need those extra runways? I don't mean the airport but the city.

Demand from the London and South East area will have exceeded runway capacity within a decade. Now is already too late to be planning extra runways, thanks to our archaically slow planning/inquiry system.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 29):
A lot of traffic via LHR is connecting, and can be moved to other airports like MAN, AMS, FRA, CDG etc.

As will the economic benefits associated with the services, although MAN is not a viable suggestion without a major hub carrier, whih is very unlikely.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 29):
O&D pax can be spread over LTN, LHR ,STN and LGW after upgrading infrastructure with high-speed transport to the city.

It already is spread over those airports. These are approaching capacity too.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 29):
No charter/holiday flights from LHR, use LTN, STN and LGW.

There are barely any even now.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
1400mph
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:48 pm

Quoting b2319 (Reply 30):
Maybe. Behind ICN, SIN and HKG would be my guess.

Oh of course !

Quoting b2319 (Reply 30):

I agree it has improved from 2007 to 2012.

Very gracious !

Quoting b2319 (Reply 30):
According to some of the winter weather threads on this very forum, this is an airport reportedly and repeatedly being operated at 95% of its design capacity. Are you (a) denying it is a slot-restricted airport or (b) can you provide a source that any recent UK goverment has actively tried to address this important issue?

No and no. I am just pointing out that it is not a bad airport that deserves sarcasm like..."I have not had the 'pleasure'...etc

Far from it. I am always amazed by the eagerness of 'supposed' aviation enthusiasts to jump on the 'LHR sucks band wagon' and dismiss the worlds' busiest international airport. ESPECIALLY considering the amount of money that is made by just about every major airline in the world through operating there. The very same airlines which are championed to the hilt by a.netters !
 
waly777
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:34 pm

Having read through the entire link and seen a pictographic representation, this seems to be the most logical and possibly cost effective solution to the Heathrow capacity issue.

Ah but they would have to deal with the issues of permitting the use of mixed mode the entire time
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
666wizard
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:16 pm

NIMBY's ?? What NIMBY's ??

Gonzalo you do know of course   however for others NIMBY is "Not In My Back Yard!"

A very UK problem, unfortunately.

666wizard
 
Max Q
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:30 pm

Couldn't get the link to work..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
trex8
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:37 pm

Quoting 666wizard (Reply 34):
A very UK problem, unfortunately.

I wish, there are enough of those around ORD also!
 
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exFWAOONW
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:50 pm

Quoting 666wizard (Reply 34):
A very UK problem, unfortunately.

But hardly unique.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
Dufo
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:26 pm

These lengthened runways don't seem like a bad idea.
With proper separation safety shouldn't be an issue any more than in already existing parallel operation.
I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
 
sankaps
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:26 pm

Option 3, but with the extensions offset by about 100-150 feet from the current runways, seems like could work quite well!
 
bendewire
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:09 pm

I somehow think a lot of people involved with Heathrow are missing a very important point, Heathrow origanlly had 4 Runways (8 directions) and British planning law is quite clear that if you are replacing something which is or was originally there the planning process is virtually seamless. A clever Architect could probably come up with a design based on the original footprint but taking into account the subsequently built terminals. So any budding architect out there want to be famous? get designing!
 
flyingcello
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Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:34 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 16):
On another thread a year or more ago I proposed the options above. Both are kind of MAD style layout, offering a 4 runway operation, simultaneously, without the need to reclaim land or move one house. You would just have to build some tunnels for the M25. I think that is a perfect layout and solution for LHR.

This idea has some merit...you would use the new runways for southerly departures, and northerly arrivals. The only problem is that this may well put traffic into conflict with Gatwick easterly arrivals or westerly departures. However, the distances involved are greater than the distances they manage in NewYork (JFK / LGA / EWR), so it should be manageable.

As for the extended main runways...has an airport ever been certified to operate simultaneous operations on a single extended runway? Doubt it! However, if we retain the two existing runways, and build the two new runways a little to the north or south of the existing runway centrelines, then it could work. Let's say arrivals on 'old' 27R and departures on new 28R, with 28R beginning west (or even slightly east) of the M25, and 200m further north? Interesting.
 
PlymSpotter
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Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:00 am

Quoting bendewire (Reply 41):

I somehow think a lot of people involved with Heathrow are missing a very important point, Heathrow origanlly had 4 Runways (8 directions) and British planning law is quite clear that if you are replacing something which is or was originally there the planning process is virtually seamless. A clever Architect could probably come up with a design based on the original footprint but taking into account the subsequently built terminals. So any budding architect out there want to be famous? get designing!

That's not an option, you would have to knock down the whole of Heathrow and hundreds of large buildings for miles around.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
VS11
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Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:29 am

I also think the idea is doable, especially for smaller aircraft that require less runway. Not sure what the percentage of A320/B737 type of aircraft vs. the bigger jets is but my guess is that smaller aircraft prevail.
 
bendewire
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Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:43 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 38):

Gonzalo, the Examples shown especially option 1 is somewhat incorrect, the runway would run almost parralell to the M4 so Southall would not be affected, however if Southall was affected then it would mirror the 50s 60 and 70s when runway 05 was operational, then, arrivals flew directly over the cetre of Southall town centre
 
Gonzalo
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Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:48 am

Quoting bendewire (Reply 45):
Gonzalo, the Examples shown especially option 1 is somewhat incorrect

Sorry, I was just putting the graphics in the article since some fellow members had problems with the FT link.
If there is some mistake, I couldn't see that since I'm not familiar with LHR ( yet, I'm planning some travel to visit family there   )

Thanks for pointing out !!

Rgds.
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cornutt
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Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:55 am

Quoting parapente (Reply 8):
BTW create a Rail hub (as proposed by Arup) next to Heathrow that connects the (soon to be electrified) London-West rail,with.HS2 to Birmingham

If they make that runway much longer, they can just taxi to Birmingham.  
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:57 am

Maybe they could create two new parallel runways, and extend them a little bit westwards by putting a short stretch of the M25 in a tunnel, and leave just enough space between them so that the aircraft would not conflict with each other whilst on the ground. Then you could have takeoffs on the two "outer" runways and landings on the two "inner" runways, with taxiways guiding the planes queuing to takeoff around the back far enough away from the threshold that they would not get in the way of landings or need to cross an active runway.
 
bendewire
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:26 pm

Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:04 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 46):

No need to apologise, as I can see this was the work of other people, who, are not familiar with Heathrow's History. The extra runway story has been running for many years and is likely to run for many years to come, as the government of any party is so scared of the green/eco backlash, so this is likely to be discussed on A-net for many years. Can you believe the nievity of politicians who favour a high speed rail link, stating this will reduce the number of regional flights from Heathrow so free up capacity, the HS2 will firstly go as far as Birmingham and be completed in 2026, but has nobody told them direct flights from Heathrow to Birmingham do not exist, although I do believe there was some back in the 60s & 70s
 
cornutt
Posts: 333
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:57 am

Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Boost LHR Capacity

Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 48):
with taxiways guiding the planes queuing to takeoff around the back far enough away from the threshold that they would not get in the way of landings or need to cross an active runway.

ATL has exactly such a setup... A/C landing on 8L or 26R can use taxiway V to go around the approach end of 8R, and not have to wait.

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