ORDTLV2414
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Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:00 am

I've been wondering for sometime why UA runs JFK-SFO and JFK-LAX when their entire hub is at EWR. Wouldn't it make more sense to move it all to EWR? Thoughts??
 
KD5MDK
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:01 am

There are lots of people who spend lots of money who prefer JFK, whether because of convenience or prestige.

See New United P.S. Debuts Service (by Atrude777 Mar 18 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
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STT757
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:03 am

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Thread starter):
I've been wondering for sometime why SA)">UA runs JFK-SFO and JFK-LAX when their entire hub is at EWR. Wouldn't it make more sense to move it all to EWR? Thoughts??

Because they can't fly LGA-SFO, LGA-LAX where they operate all their other hub flights (ORD, CLE, DEN, IAH etc..). If their were no perimeter rule at LGA and there were enough slots SA)">UA would not be at JFK. Their NYC destinations would be EWR and LGA, however since LAX and SFO are outside the perimeter of LGA (save SA) they operate their services to JFK for their hubs at LAX and SFO.
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jfklganyc
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:14 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
Because they can't fly LGA-SFO, LGA-LAX where they operate all their other hub flights (ORD, CLE, DEN, IAH etc..). If their were no perimeter rule at LGA and there were enough slots SA)">UA would not be at JFK. Their NYC destinations would be EWR and LGA, however since LAX and SFO are outside the perimeter of LGA (save SA) they operate their services to JFK for their hubs at LAX and SFO.

You really dont know that. Take IAD which is served from JFK and LGA.

Long story short, there are only 3 huge airlines in the US now. They're all going to have a presence at JFK and every other large airport in the country. Welcome to consolidation.

Pre-merger UA had a small presence at all 3 airports in the last few years. JFK had LAX, SFO, and IAD. LGA had ORD, DEN, IAD. EWR served all the hubs with less frequency than LGA or JFK to the respective cities served.

Pre merger CO had a huge hub at EWR and a token presence at LGA. No presence at JFK.

The reality is, CO did themselves a disservice by being focused on only one airport. An airline as large as UA can not do that.

It also speaks to the profitability and importance of the JFK routes that they have their own product; unique to the entire UA system.
 
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STT757
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:21 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):
You really dont know that.

Absolutely, look at Chicago. In another thread were lauding B6 adding a third daily from JFK.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):
The reality is, CO did themselves a disservice by being focused on only one airport

It's the core of their advantage in the market, which is why they have the only true hub.
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FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:45 am

UA carries a great deal of premium passengers with the p.s. service, they also carry a great deal of freight and mail. EWR is UA's international gateway. JFK is UA's gateway to the west.
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klwright69
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:21 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 5):
JFK is UA's gateway to the west.

Not completely true, UA does not serve DEN or IAH out of JFK. CO tried JFK to CLE and IAH, but was never satisfied with the results, so they were eliminated obviously. IAH was tried several times. CO also used to run Saturday LGA-AUA trips to further utilize LGA assets on the weekend, one of their few point to point routes. I see in the timetable UA is doing LGA-AUA runs this summer on Saturdays, so this flight obviously has its place at a nonhub NYC airport also.

UA kept the sUA transcons out of JFK because it's boutique market and UA has been there forever and forever, catering to its well heeled clientele there. They are essential routes for UA. I could see DEN-JFK as a challenging route for UA, and IAH would probably be the same. I am booked on DL' DEN-JFK next month, and it's a dirt cheap fare. I have seen 99$ one way on DL's JFK-DEN nonstop. The point is yields on such routes are trash, not the loads themselves.

It was not a drawback for CO to be so heavily focused on EWR, it's what made the most sense with limited resources.

Maybe the combined UA can add some more at LGA/JFK to boost their presence there as well. Or possibly they could have other priorities.
 
flyingalex
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:24 am

One thing to remember is that JFK does not only serve New York City. There are quite a few people on Long Island and southern Connecticut for whom JFK is the preferred airport. Some of them are fantastically wealthy (like the residents of the Hamptons, for example).

JFK and EWR overlap in that they both serve NYC, but they remain separate markets. There are areas that naturally gravitate towards either one or the other, and it can make sense to have a presence in both. I can only assume the numbers add up, otherwise UA would not have stuck with their JFK operation for so long.
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:52 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):
The reality is, CO did themselves a disservice by being focused on only one airport.

Um, what?
CO's market share numbers pre-merger would indicate that it was no disservice at all.... not really sure how you're able to convince yourself otherwise.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:20 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
Um, what?
CO's market share numbers pre-merger would indicate that it was no disservice at all.... not really sure how you're able to convince yourself otherwise.

Because I live here. And even though they were the largest in market share, I never flew them. And I didn't go out of my way not to fly them. It just happened. Flying them meant going to Newark. Where flying any other airline meant going to LGA or sometimes JFK.

Nobody I knew flew them for the reason stated above.

It involved crossing 2 bridges and a nightmare of Bronx or Manhattan roadways.

CO built a beautiful hub at EWR. A profitable one too. Can't argue with that.

But they never served NYC the way that made them THE NYC airline because they simply had nothing more than a token presence at the NYC airports themselves.

UA, being a larger airline and now having absorbed CO, can not have a narrow focus when it comes to NYC. Hence, operations at all 3 airports are served. PS service speaks to that philosophy
 
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:40 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 7):

Agrred. I live in Southern LI and I go. For the most part. Out of my way to fly into/out of JFK because it is a 30 minutes drive for me vs 45-50 to LGA and 1.5 hours to EWR. I also fly out of ISP, but it doesn't always have what I need.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):

Same here. It is a 1.5-2 hour drive for me to get to EWR plus tolls and bridges and an extended stay on the Belt. I have flown UA from EWR twice in my life, once because I hadn't made the arrangments myself and once because my father wanted to fly a prop.
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dartland
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:16 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
Um, what?
CO's market share numbers pre-merger would indicate that it was no disservice at all.... not really sure how you're able to convince yourself otherwise.

Because I live here. And even though they were the largest in market share, I never flew them. And I didn't go out of my way not to fly them. It just happened. Flying them meant going to Newark. Where flying any other airline meant going to LGA or sometimes JFK.

In what world is not serving you a disservice to a major airline? They don't NEED to service Long Island to do well.

Financially, CO/UA has done extremely well by owning EWR and focusing on half the metro area. They have the half with no competition! Much better than battling the other half with fierce competitors like DL and B6.

As for the JFK P.S. service -- this has nothing to do with serving Long Island, being in a different market, blah blah blah. It's quite simple: P.S. O&D service is profitable. Also, it is required by many NY-area corporate contracts (who, by the way, include EWR in their scope of negotiation, and treat NYC as one big market if they're based in Manhattan). It's possible if UA had P.S. service to EWR, they could reduce JFK, but that would leave the vulnerable as the O&D traffic tends to prefer JFK, and they'd have to oversupply P.S. since their EWR connecting traffic doesn't require that level of service.
 
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):
The reality is, CO did themselves a disservice by being focused on only one airport. An airline as large as UA can not do that.

You have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about! CO having a full service HUB in EWR is not a disservice whatsoever, it have allowed CO to be #1 in the market.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
Because I live here. And even though they were the largest in market share, I never flew them. And I didn't go out of my way not to fly them. It just happened. Flying them meant going to Newark. Where flying any other airline meant going to LGA or sometimes JFK.

Nobody I knew flew them for the reason stated above.

It involved crossing 2 bridges and a nightmare of Bronx or Manhattan roadways.

CO built a beautiful hub at EWR. A profitable one too. Can't argue with that.

But they never served NYC the way that made them THE NYC airline because they simply had nothing more than a token presence at the NYC airports themselves.

UA, being a larger airline and now having absorbed CO, can not have a narrow focus when it comes to NYC. Hence, operations at all 3 airports are served. PS service speaks to that philosophy

And now we all see the problem, you are commenting on an airlines business decisions based on what you personally prefer! The fact that you have never used CO doesn't really mean a whole lot because the majority of people do not have the same opinion as you can see by looking at the numbers.
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:58 pm

Lets look at the numbers...last year JFK handled 47 million passengers. LGA 25 million. EWR 35 million.

Why would you not want a piece of the 70million people at the other 2 airports?

That's why UA has JFK and LGA operations

The numbers do speak for themselves. It isn't folklore. 2/3 of traffic into and out of NYC flies into Queens.
 
airbazar
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:10 pm

As long as there is no viable alternative to the ridiculously congested Cross Bronx Expy (I-95), and the George Washington bridge, JFK will continue to be airport of choice for anyone on the East side of Hudson.
 
catiii
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:14 pm

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Thread starter):
I've been wondering for sometime why UA runs JFK-SFO and JFK-LAX when their entire hub is at EWR. Wouldn't it make more sense to move it all to EWR? Thoughts??

By that rationale AA and DL shouldn't serve EWR.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 12):
You have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about! CO having a full service HUB in EWR is not a disservice whatsoever, it have allowed CO to be #1 in the market.

All things being equal, are you saying that UA (in its present incarnation) wouldn't prefer to have DL's position in NYC (JFK/LGA hubs, int'l presence at EWR)?
 
klwright69
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 15):
All things being equal, are you saying that UA (in its present incarnation) wouldn't prefer to have DL's position in NYC (JFK/LGA hubs, int'l presence at EWR)?

Oh dear, let's not go down this path for the 1000th time, the whole EWR vs. other NY airports debate again.

Is there something wrong with going to number #1, from where UA was previously in the market without the CO merger?
 
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ADent
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Thread starter):
I've been wondering for sometime why UA runs JFK-SFO and JFK-LAX when their entire hub is at EWR. Wouldn't it make more sense to move it all to EWR? Thoughts??

It is left over from pre-merger United's large presence at JFK in the 70s and 80s. UA has special PS service on this route. It must be making significant money for UA to keep the route, with dedicated aircraft that have a unique layout.



When the profits drop off then it will be moved to EWR, but for now it must be raking in the cash.
 
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:24 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):
As long as there is no viable alternative to the ridiculously congested Cross Bronx Expy (I-95), and the George Washington bridge, JFK will continue to be airport of choice for anyone on the East side of Hudson.

East of the East River, maybe, but I don't see why anyone headed to EWR from Manhattan would even be on the Cross Bronx Expressway or the Bridge. It's a quick ride through the Lincoln Tunnel from there (there's also a shuttle bus from the Port Authority terminal that takes the same route) or an easy train journey from Penn Station.

From Manhattan, it's usually a wash timewise whether you head to EWR or JFK. If cabbing it, EWR will obviously be a lot more expensive though.
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flyingalex
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 17):
It is left over from pre-merger United's large presence at JFK in the 70s and 80s. UA has special PS service on this route. It must be making significant money for UA to keep the route, with dedicated aircraft that have a unique layout.

When the profits drop off then it will be moved to EWR, but for now it must be raking in the cash.

Exactly. The amount of second-guessing on this forum is ridiculous.

UA employs a lot of number crunchers, and believe me, if the numbers didn't add up, those routes wouldn't exist. If, at some point in the future, the routes turn out to have become unprofitable, rest assured that they will be cut. Until then, the fact that UA is still at JFK means that they are still making money at JFK, and that is all the justification anyone should need.
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corinthians
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 13):
Lets look at the numbers...last year JFK handled 47 million passengers. LGA 25 million. EWR 35 million.

Why would you not want a piece of the 70million people at the other 2 airports?

That's why UA has JFK and LGA operations

The numbers do speak for themselves. It isn't folklore. 2/3 of traffic into and out of NYC flies into Queens.

Actually, JFK handled over 49M in 2012. And of that 49M, 80%+ was O&D. Not bad for an airport that's somewhat "out of the way" and "not the preferred airport". Compare that to, say, 55% O&D traffic of 34M passengers for EWR.

I never got where the idea that JFK was in the hinterlands and just too inconvenient for a lot of people to use. You're right in that the numbers absolutely speak for themselves.
 
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STT757
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:51 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
Because I live here. And even though they were the largest in market share, I never flew them. And I didn't go out of my way not to fly them. It just happened. Flying them meant going to Newark

Queens is not the center of the New York City universe. For instance there are half a million New York City residents on Staten Island who's closest airport is EWR. There are also many in Manhattan who prefer EWR as it's an easier option, same with the Bronx and Brooklyn. Checking Google maps it's equal distance from Dyker Heights to EWR as it is to JFK, and in current traffic conditions it's a shorter drive right now to EWR.

If you grew up in Queens of course your going to never use EWR, just like if you live in Newark your not going to fly from JFK unless you got a cheap fare or are using a reward. For the majority of New York City residents who live West of Queens they have better options.

Quoting catiii (Reply 15):
ll things being equal, are you saying that UA (in its present incarnation) wouldn't prefer to have DL's position in NYC (JFK/LGA hubs, int'l presence at EWR)?

UA's in the best position in the NYC market.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 10):
Agrred. I live in Southern LI and I go. For the most part. Out of my way to fly into/out of JFK because it is a 30 minutes drive for me vs 45-50 to LGA and 1.5 hours to EWR.

But the same is also true for New Jersey, Up State New York and even Eastern Pennsylvania travelers for whom EWR is much easier than JFK.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 10):
It is a 1.5-2 hour drive for me to get to EWR plus tolls and bridges and an extended stay on the Belt.

Traffic on the Belt Parkway is omnidirectional, what is a deterrent for folks like you drive from the East to EWR is also a deterrent for folks driving from the West to JFK. The only difference is there is a heck of a lot more people West of JFK than there are to the East.
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Viscount724
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 6):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 5):
JFK is UA's gateway to the west.

Not completely true, UA does not serve DEN or IAH out of JFK.

No doubt because they can serve both points from LGA as IAH is within the perimeter and DEN was grandfathered in as the only exception to the perimeter rule. If memory correct the 1,500 mile perimeter was established based on political pressure to cover both Houston and Dallas.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:29 pm

Simple: NYC has 20-ish million people in its metro area. 3 major airports scattered at different places of this congested mess (though LGA and JFK are both on Long Island). NY boroughs such as Queens and Brooklyn alone are bigger than most US metro areas... let alone the other 3 million people who live on the rest of Long Island, who have virtually no use for an airport in New Jersey (= on the other side of Manhattan) that UA calls its NYC hub.
And, there is Manhattan itself (the bulk of the high-fare o&d traffic to NYC), who, like it or not, does not always prefer EWR over JFK. In fact, JFK always seems to be more popular than EWR, at least for most people and/or most parts of Manhattan.
So, UA essentially flies to JFK because there is a market, regardless of the fact that they have a hub on the other side of the metro area.

Don't DL or AA also fly to EWR after all?
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catiii
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:57 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 16):
Oh dear, let's not go down this path for the 1000th time, the whole EWR vs. other NY airports debate again.

Right, I can see how that looks in this context. I was responding to his post, which was responding to another post about focusing on only one airport. I'm not saying that EWR is better or worse than the other airports. I meant it in the context of having EWR and additional coverage at the other two.
 
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:07 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 18):

East of the East River, maybe, but I don't see why anyone headed to EWR from Manhattan would even be on the Cross Bronx Expressway or the Bridge. It's a quick ride through the Lincoln Tunnel from there (there's also a shuttle bus from the Port Authority terminal that takes the same route) or an easy train journey from Penn Station.

Because a lot of the people who pay the big bucks to fly these routes are more likely to live in CT than in Manhattan.
 
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:48 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
Because a lot of the people who pay the big bucks to fly these routes are more likely to live in CT than in Manhattan.

Believe it or not, there are also people who fly into New York rather than out of it. These people are likely to stay in hotels, which will usually be in Manhattan.

I'm not dismissing JFK, I think it definitely has a massively important place within the wider concept of air travel from the New York area. I'm just saying that it is a mistake to treat EWR as the bastard stepchild that no one could ever love. Doing so would be shortsighted.
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N62NA
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:26 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 15):
By that rationale AA and DL shouldn't serve EWR.

Well... they barely do.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 21):
For the majority of New York City residents who live West of Queens they have better options (than JFK)

Yes... LGA for short/medium flights.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 23):
And, there is Manhattan itself (the bulk of the high-fare o&d traffic to NYC), who, like it or not, does not always prefer EWR over JFK. In fact, JFK always seems to be more popular than EWR, at least for most people and/or most parts of Manhattan.

Correct (much to the dismay of the EWR / UA / CO fans on here).

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 26):
I'm just saying that it is a mistake to treat EWR as the bastard stepchild that no one could ever love.

The legacy airlines always have.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:13 am

People who live in Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island generally perfer JFK as it is 15-30 min away from most neighborhoods there. People in Manhattan generally prefer LGA as it is the same 15-30 min away. EWR has 2 problems for myself and many New Yorkers. 1the traffic. Newark is right on the otherside of the Holland Tunnel but during the hours of 6-11 am and 4-8p or later sometimes that trip can take over 1 hour. Just to get through the tunnel. The second issue is the toll. $13 to enter NYC. The price goes up a dollar almost annually.
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N62NA
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:29 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 28):
People who live in Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island generally perfer JFK as it is 15-30 min away from most neighborhoods there. People in Manhattan generally prefer LGA as it is the same 15-30 min away. EWR has 2 problems for myself and many New Yorkers.

1. the traffic. Newark is right on the otherside of the Holland Tunnel but during the hours of 6-11 am and 4-8p or later sometimes that trip can take over 1 hour. Just to get through the tunnel.

The second issue is the toll. $13 to enter NYC. The price goes up a dollar almost annually.

3) Hailing a NYC cab is going to cost a bundle (that is, if you can convince the driver to take you to EWR).

4) There's no air shuttle to DCA / BOS from EWR
 
dartland
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:32 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
Because a lot of the people who pay the big bucks to fly these routes are more likely to live in CT than in Manhattan.

First of all, not so much true. Manhattan has, by far, the highest concentration of wealth. Probably 10x the number of so-called "people who pay the big bucks" as compared to southeast CT, especially when you factor out those who will fly from HPN or LGA.

Second of all, as someone who grew up in Westchester, JFK and EWR are pretty much even in time/traffic. LGA is preferred, otherwise doesn't matter. GWB or Whitestone / Throgs Neck + Van Wyck? Pick your poison.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 28):
1the traffic. Newark is right on the otherside of the Holland Tunnel but during the hours of 6-11 am and 4-8p or later sometimes that trip can take over 1 hour. Just to get through the tunnel. The second issue is the toll. $13 to enter NYC. The price goes up a dollar almost annually.

Traffic is just as bad to JFK. On a Friday afternoon, will take longer to get to JFK than EWR from Midtown in a car, in my experience (and I used to do it every week). Train will take about the same, although I swear the EWR monorail is out to get me.

And the Queens Midtown Tunnel toll is $5 each way, so really not that different. Obviously if you're going to take one of the free bridges, that's different. But if you're coming/going from anywhere in midtown, the tunnel is by far the most convenient.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:01 am

Someone mentioned the cab...and that is important.

LGA is a metered fare

JFK is a flat fare

EWR is the fare + the return fare + toll (Toll is only charged inbound from Jersey, but cabs charge it to outbound travellers with the return fare. Plus any Turnpike fare in both directions)

The best way to get to EWR from NYC is car service, bus or train. Not yellow cab.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:21 am

Quoting dartland (Reply 30):
And the Queens Midtown Tunnel toll is $5 each way, so really not that different. Obviously if you're going to take one of the free bridges, that's different. But if you're coming/going from anywhere in midtown, the tunnel is by far the most convenient.

Traffic in NY outside of Manhattan is the highways. The 59th St. Bridge is as convienent to midtown as the tunnel. Deal with a little traffic on the LIE to woodhaven and take woodhaven to crossbay to the airport. Maximum 45 minutes. I have personally spent 45 minutes just trying to approach the Holland Tunnel around 6:30.
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BigGSFO
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:40 am

UA operates into JFK because it makes them money. The higher yielding transcon traffic prefers JFK. There is no need for UA to really connect too many other dots in/out of there.

UA probably carries a significant amount of California originating traffic in these flights, in particular entertainment and tech. To them, they want JFK.
 
catiii
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:51 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 27):
Well... they barely do.

2 daily international destinations on their own metal plus almost 30 domestic outbound flights per day on DL is "barely"?

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 31):
The best way to get to EWR from NYC is car service, bus or train. Not yellow cab.

Truthfully the NJT and AirTrain work like a cinch for my money. It's a shame a similar option isn't available on LIRR out of GCT.

[Edited 2013-03-21 11:51:38]
 
flyingalex
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 34):
It's a shame a similar option isn't available on LIRR out of GCT.

LIRR to Sutphin Boulevard and then the Airtrain JFK doesn't work for you?
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N62NA
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 34):
2 daily international destinations on their own metal plus almost 30 domestic outbound flights per day on DL is "barely"?

For a mid-sized city, that's ample. For half of one of the most populated metro areas in the world, it's "barely" yes.
 
United Airline
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:02 pm

I remember UA used to fly widebodies between LAX/SFO and JFK. AA is still flying widebodies between LAX-JFK. What about UA? Do they fly widebodies between LAX/SFO and JFK occasionally? What are UA's widebody domestic flights?
 
stlgph
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 35):
LIRR to Sutphin Boulevard and then the Airtrain JFK doesn't work for you?

LIRR doesnt run out of GCT -- not for another 5 (let us pray) years.
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BigGSFO
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 37):

I remember UA used to fly widebodies between LAX/SFO and JFK. AA is still flying widebodies between LAX-JFK. What about UA?

No. They only operate their ps configured aircraft between LAX/SFO-JFK. I believe those are all 757s.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 37):
AA is still flying widebodies between LAX-JFK.

Yes but not for long. The 321s coming into the fleet will replace the 767s.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 37):
What are UA's widebody domestic flights?

Outside of Hawaii, I don't think they operate any domestic widebodies anymore. I remember flying a 747 DEN-SFO about 5 years ago. It was a fun ride as I was upgraded and sat on the the upper deck.
 
flyingalex
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 38):
LIRR doesnt run out of GCT -- not for another 5 (let us pray) years.

D'oh! You're right, of course. It goes to Penn Station. Somehow I had it at Grand Central in my mind.
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tommy767
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:10 pm

We also forget that 10 years ago UA had quite a loyalty out of Kennedy pre bankruptcy: EZE, GIG, NRT, LHR, GRU, SJU, CCS etc. By 2005 only LHR, SFO, LAX existed and by 2007 strictly PS.

UA has a nice setup at JFK in T7. JFK-LAX/SFO are high yielding routes and will likely never go away for UA. Over at EWR, it's all about frequency using PMUA 757 and PMCO 757 with the lie flat seats.
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STT757
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:08 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 41):
Over at EWR, it's all about frequency

16 daily EWR-SFO ( 7 738, 5 739, 3 752, 1 A319)
14 daily EWR-LAX (5 738, 2 739, 6 752, 1 753)

Wow.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:10 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 42):
16 daily EWR-SFO ( 7 738, 5 739, 3 752, 1 A319)
14 daily EWR-LAX (5 738, 2 739, 6 752, 1 753)

Wow.

That's an insane amount of flights.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:21 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 41):

Also don't forget the IAD flights.
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FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 44):
Also don't forget the IAD flights.

IAD is like 4 or 5 express flights. 50 seat express at that.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:12 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 21):
UA's in the best position in the NYC market.

I'm sorry, not that I want to get into this little pissing match, but just what metric are you using to say this? (other than bias)

I don't know of a metric that puts someone in the "best" position in a market like NYC. Delta is going to end up being about the same size as UA with a hub at LGA the preferred business airport. A respectable hub at JFK and a large spoke at EWR. I bet if you ask someone in Atlanta who has it the best they will tell you Delta does. That is a very subjective statement that I would to see backed up with some kind of facts. (or and edit that says IMO, UA is in the best position.)

having said that.....carry on.
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STT757
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:29 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 46):
I'm sorry, not that I want to get into this little pissing match, but just what metric are you using to say this? (other than bias)

To connect passengers from Domestic to International does not require a 30 minute taxi ride, that's one of the metrics.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
N62NA
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:40 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 42):
16 daily EWR-SFO ( 7 738, 5 739, 3 752, 1 A319)
14 daily EWR-LAX (5 738, 2 739, 6 752, 1 753)

It's a good thing EWR doesn't have any congestion issues.  
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Whats The Point Of UA At JFK?

Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:59 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 47):
To connect passengers from Domestic to International does not require a 30 minute taxi ride, that's one of the metrics.

Giant hubs are for giant airports. None such exists in NYC.

When you have this:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 42):
16 daily EWR-SFO ( 7 738, 5 739, 3 752, 1 A319)
14 daily EWR-LAX (5 738, 2 739, 6 752, 1 753)

You are just congesting the airport, holding out the competition, raising airfares and stifling growth. All at a slot controlled airport.

There's a reason EWR has been stagnant in growth for the last decade and pays the highest fares in the nation.

Wouldn't it be nice if EWR was also in the mid 40 million passenger range like JFK? It would benefit the region tremendously. Having one airline with a major hub at a high demand airport that is slot controlled benefits no one.

Tomorrow UA has 4 flights a day to BDL. 2 on Dash 8s, 2 on ERJs. This flight is of zero benefit to any O and D passenger. Yet it is taking 8 slots at a slot controlled airport. That's why growth is stagnant at EWR.

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