rickabone
Topic Author
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AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:32 pm

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-bl...proved#disqus_thread#ixzz2NYFwJDux

Personally I think the TWA FA's were done a severe injustice by APFA and now there is a great opportunity to correct that injustice... You can't fix all of the damage that was done, but you can at least make a few reparations. At this point it shouldn't even be a big deal for APFA as it's such a small percentage of the workforce, and integration of the TWA FA's seniority would hardly have an effect.
 
mjzair
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:44 pm

So, two wrongs make a right is what you are saying... If you go by the tactics used in the previous merger, then in terms of career expectations, AA should be stapled to the bottom of the US list because AA was the carrier in bankruptcy. If it was legal, just and fair in 2001, it should be fair now.
 
seatback
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:00 pm

Quoting mjzair (Reply 1):
If you go by the tactics used in the previous merger, then in terms of career expectations, AA should be stapled to the bottom of the US list because AA was the carrier in bankruptcy. If it was legal, just and fair in 2001, it should be fair now.

The TWA FA weren't stapled to the bottom of the list because they were in bankruptcy, they were stapled because that's how the APFA chose to handle the matter AND as a note, the assets of the company they worked for were acquired by AA.

Even though AA is now in bankruptcy, they're aren't being acquired as was TWA. They are in a true merger scenario.

Big difference.
 
SPREE34
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:35 pm

A reordering of the list at this point would probably bring legal action from the US FAs, and rightfully so. Arbitration and McCaskill/Bond will determine how it goes in the end.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:12 pm

Quoting seatback (Reply 2):
They are in a true merger scenario.

How much cash is US pumping into AA? It's a merger in name only just because there are more tax benefits to a merger rather than a buyout.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
roseflyer
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:39 pm

Federal law prohibits putting one groups seniority under the other. The Missouri senators passed the law on response to what happened to the TWA crews. Any integration will be mutual or the u ions would be kept separate like the previous US merger.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
YYZbound
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:18 am

Excuse me....I'm from RenoAir....and WE were also stapled to the bottom of the seniority list....just in case anyone forgot.

And I don't recall anyone feeling terribly sorry for us when we lost our seniority
 
ouboy79
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:23 am

Yup...one big happy family at the new US Airways...errr...American...there will be.  

Now all we need is people from AirCal, Piedmont, PSA, Lake Central, Mohawk, all wanting to redo things.
 
tothestars
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:31 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 8):

"Now all we need is people from AirCal, Piedmont, PSA, Lake Central, Mohawk, all wanting to redo things."


With all due respect, why would they want to redo things, didn't they all receive DOH? Oh add Ozark to that list too.
TWA-Airline To the Stars
 
rickabone
Topic Author
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:44 am

Quoting mjzair (Reply 1):
So, two wrongs make a right is what you are saying... If you go by the tactics used in the previous merger, then in terms of career expectations, AA should be stapled to the bottom of the US list because AA was the carrier in bankruptcy. If it was legal, just and fair in 2001, it should be fair now.

I don't see how that's at all what I was saying.... What I'm saying is that this opportunity should be used to reintegrate the few TWA FA's remaining using their original date of hire... I am not arguing that AA FA's should be stapled to the bottom of the seniority list like they did with the TWA FA's, though that would be a form of justice I guess. Either I'm missing your sarcasm or you completely misread my post.
 
seatback
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:36 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 4):
How much cash is US pumping into AA? It's a merger in name only just because there are more tax benefits to a merger rather than a buyout.



It's a stock swap with the original AA shareholders getting more than 70 percent of the new company with LCC shareholders taking the remaining 30 percent.

I don't believe LCC is "pumping" any money in.
 
PRAirbus
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:00 pm

TWA FA's union agreed to that type of seniority integration when AA bought TWA, their union agreed to that...don't forget that part of the equation in return, TWA FA's were granted AA FA's pay of rates and vacation days, etc according to their TWA date of hire; their seniority was intact regarding pay and vacation. In their case, ex-TWA FA's got a substantial raise when they were acquired by AA. I don't think they've a case, their union did that not AA.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting seatback (Reply 2):
Even though AA is now in bankruptcy, they're aren't being acquired as was TWA. They are in a true merger scenario.

Big difference.

I must respectfully disagree. DL acquired NW and we MUTUALLY agreed to merge seniority by straight date of hire. The TWA people were done a grave injustice but it is too late now to change that, unfortunately. It was the DL side that approached us and the DL VP of Inflight that said she would not sign off on anything less. It removed a lot of stress and made it much easier to integrate successfully.

The tactics used by APFA were so terrible that Congress passed a law to prevent it from ever happening again. If I had to hazard a guess, the merge of seniority will be straight date of hire. I was totally shocked, as were my colleauges throughout the industry, at the disrespect shown to some incredibly talented senior TWA people. We simply could not bellieve that any flight attendant would do that to another flight attendant. We may wear different uniforms but were are still one professionand we show each other respect. And to this day no one at APFA will even say "Well, maybe we should have done things a little differently."
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tothestars
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 13):

And to this day no one at APFA will even say "Well, maybe we should have done things a little differently




Thank you DTWPurserBoy, and actually the president of APFA has publicly stated that it was a mistake and that they really messed up.
TWA-Airline To the Stars
 
ASFlyer
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:41 pm

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 12):
TWA FA's union agreed to that type of seniority integration when AA bought TWA, their union agreed to that...don't forget that part of the equation in return, TWA FA's were granted AA FA's pay of rates and vacation days, etc according to their TWA date of hire; their seniority was intact regarding pay and vacation. In their case, ex-TWA FA's got a substantial raise when they were acquired by AA. I don't think they've a case, their union did that not AA.

TWA FA's were shown the door when they were acquired. A "substantial raise" only counts if they actually had jobs in which to reap the benefits of said raise. TWA FA's got the shaft from their own union and from the APFA that were all too eager to staple them to the bottom.
 
FURUREFA
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:56 pm

Quoting seatback (Reply 11):
It's a stock swap with the original AA shareholders getting more than 70 percent of the new company with LCC shareholders taking the remaining 30 percent.

Almost. Original AMR shareholders are getting a small piece of the new company (around 3% of the company, I believe). AA's current bondholders/creditors are receiving many shares in the new AA.
 
capejet
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:57 pm

It seems to me the AA/TW integration was done correctly. AA was buying the assets of a failed company (TW). IF you are an AA F/A with 2 years seniority then you have been paying dues to the APFA for 2 years, right? Then the APFA has a legal obligation to make sure your interests are represented. That means placing the TW F/A with 25 years below the AA F/A with 2 years in seniority. Here is why, if there are layoffs (and there were) you cant have the F/A from the failed company keep working, covering the trips of the F/A from AA who has just been laid off. That would only make sense in a true merger. It was unfortunate the TW F/A's got laid off, but they are lucky they had a company to go back to at recall time (AA), unlike the people flying at PanAm (another failed company) who had no one to call them back.
 
questions
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:09 pm

Were other work groups from TWA integrated into AA? If so, how did that work?

Quoting capejet (Reply 17):
unlike the people flying at PanAm

When DL acquired PA's European routes, they did not hire PA FA's?
 
tothestars
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:23 pm

Not that it matters in the way an integration of workforces should be properly integrated but the fact is that TWA agreed to enter into BK as condition of the acquisition....which does not change the fact that the apfa and its lawyers on more than one occasion have admitted to making a mistake, to wrongdoing considering the integration of the TWA flight attendants. No matter how you look at the merger/acquisition/buyout the fact remains that the "SIA integration" was not, in hindsight successfully decided...hence the fact that it is still an issue 12 years later.
I repeat that apfa and it's lawyers have publicly confessed that they made a mistake in the way they handled the integration. Period.
TWA-Airline To the Stars
 
ouboy79
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting tothestars (Reply 9):
With all due respect, why would they want to redo things, didn't they all receive DOH? Oh add Ozark to that list too.

With all due respect, I'm sorry you missed the part where I'm highlighting the absurdity in all of this. AA/TW is done. It sucked but it is time to move on.

Quoting seatback (Reply 11):
It's a stock swap with the original AA shareholders getting more than 70 percent of the new company with LCC shareholders taking the remaining 30 percent.

Watch your wording. Original SHAREholders are being wiped out. Existing STAKEholders that have helped to support AMR in Chapter 11 are getting 70% whereas LCC SHAREholders are getting 30%.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:08 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 18):
When DL acquired PA's European routes, they did not hire PA FA's?

DL DID take PA FA's. And they kept their original hire dates intact. A former FA friend of mine just retired from DL and she took her Pan Am 1970 seniority date with her.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
Prost
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:12 pm

I really hope for the sake of all employees at the new AA, their customers, and their shareholders, that the attitudes being expressed on this board never see the light of day on board an aircraft

AA has the potential of being a fierce competitor with an enviable route system. The magic ingredient is employees who strive to serve their customers. I hope old wounds get licked, the scars are remembered, but the employees pull together to do the awesome job they are capable of.
 
michman
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:09 am

Quoting mjzair (Reply 1):
I must respectfully disagree. DL acquired NW and we MUTUALLY agreed to merge seniority by straight date of hire.

I will disagree with you. DL and NW was a merger, not an acquisition. Was it a merger of equals? No, clearly DL was the larger entity. Nonetheless it was a mutual decision where both parties worked together willingly. Neither DL nor NW were in bankruptcy at the time. Neither was under any financial duress at the time. AA acquired TWA as an asset acquisition while TWA was in bankruptcy. TWA was very unlikely to emerge from their bankruptcy whole. In all likelihood, the alternative would have been an asset liquidation much like Pan Am, Eastern, and Braniff met their final fates. Sorry, but they are completely different scenarios.

[Edited 2013-03-24 17:09:33]
 
tothestars
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:47 am

Quoting michman (Reply 24):

" AA acquired TWA as an asset acquisition while TWA was in bankruptcy,"

Wrong. TWA was not in bankruptcy until the AA take over was agreed to.

Excerpt from a letter written by Robert A. Pastore
Former Member, TWA Board of Directors
Former Chairman, TWA Master Executive Council, Air Line Pilots Association.

To
The Honorable Kay Bailey Hutchison
United States Senator

Some of your comments are misleading or lack a factual basis. Please allow my perspective.

You said, in response to Senator Talent?s motion for a Sense-of-the-Senate Amendment,
"I am very sad and very sorry about the situation with the TWA employees. It was a difficult situation when TWA was in bankruptcy. A number of airlines sought to take over TWA. American was the one that was willing to do it."

TWA was not in bankruptcy prior to American?s purchase. The bankruptcy filing by TWA was a condition of the Asset Purchase Agreement as written and proposed by American. Both Boards of Directors accepted the Asset Purchase agreement at about 5p.m. EST on January 9, 2001 and in compliance with the terms and conditions of the Agreement, immediately filed bankruptcy later that evening or early the next morning. One purpose of the bankruptcy filing was to evict Carl Icahn?s onerous Karabu Ticket Agreement. I have attached the Asset Purchase Agreement and call your attention to the Recitals.

At the time of the American purchase, TWA was in the midst of negotiations to merge with America West Airlines. The American deal was not mentioned to the TWA Board until January 9th, 2001 and came as a bit of a surprise, to say the least.

http://www.smilinjack.com/cgi/ultima...ebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000671
TWA-Airline To the Stars
 
ASFlyer
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:06 am

Quoting tothestars (Reply 25):
Wrong. TWA was not in bankruptcy until the AA take over was agreed to.

This totally debunks the whole "TWA would have liquidated if AA didn't ride in on a white horse and save their employees from losing whatever they had left" theory, therefore, will quickly be dismissed and ignored as though your post was never made. Ignorance as to the facts about TWA run rampant on this and other boards frequented by armchair airline CEO's.
 
roseflyer
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:34 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 23):

One of the best posts that I have seen. American can be a great company. Fortunately labor laws have changed so what happened to the TWA employees can't happen again. With that said, nothing can be completely fair. Compromise is hard to come by and we saw it with the messy US Airways America West merger. Seniority integration did not work well then and the compromise has effected customers.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:46 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 13):
I must respectfully disagree. DL acquired NW and we MUTUALLY agreed to merge seniority by straight date of hire.

This is how it should be in all mergers, none of this, we want date of hire +5 years because we don't think the other guy did as hard or as good of a job then we did. You work for Airline X and now the people of airline Y do also, end of story.
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superjeff
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:21 am

Quoting seatback (Reply 11):

It's a stock swap with the original AA shareholders getting more than 70 percent of the new company with LCC shareholders taking the remaining 30 percent.

Not quite. AA's CREDITORS are getting 72% of the merged company. AA's shareholders lose everything. And AA was quite a bit larger than US, so that makes sense. But for all intensive purposes, this is a reverse merger, just like when America West took over US Airways, keeping the latter's name.
 
michman
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:53 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 26):
This totally debunks the whole "TWA would have liquidated if AA didn't ride in on a white horse and save their employees from losing whatever they had left" theory, therefore, will quickly be dismissed and ignored as though your post was never made. Ignorance as to the facts about TWA run rampant on this and other boards frequented by armchair airline CEO's.

While they may or may not have ultimately ended up in a Chapter 7 liquidation, they were certainly headed for bankruptcy. Why would they agree to it if they weren't already headed that way. Just look at their finances, they were on a completely unsustainable path. So, yes, they "might" have emerged whole from a Chapter 11, but the odds against were quite high which is likely why they saw the AA offer as their best option.
 
rickabone
Topic Author
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:29 am

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 12):
TWA FA's union agreed to that type of seniority integration when AA bought TWA, their union agreed to that...

Actually this is completely wrong... TWA's FA's were told that their seniority would be integrated based on date of hire and then APFA decided not to honor their 'promise.'
 
ASFlyer
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:30 am

Quoting michman (Reply 30):
While they may or may not have ultimately ended up in a Chapter 7 liquidation, they were certainly headed for bankruptcy. Why would they agree to it if they weren't already headed that way. Just look at their finances, they were on a completely unsustainable path. So, yes, they "might" have emerged whole from a Chapter 11, but the odds against were quite high which is likely why they saw the AA offer as their best option.

They agreed to it because it was a condition of the takeover. It was a condition of the takeover because AA didn't want anything to do with the KARABU agreement and that was the only way to make sure they weren't bogged down by it. America West was also sniffing around TWA and, apparently, AA made a better offer. It was clear TWA needed to do something but, as you said (and thank you for at least acknowledging it), liquidation was never a sure thing absent AA. Not with other airlines knocking on their door as well.
 
rickabone
Topic Author
Posts: 154
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:43 am

Quoting tothestars (Reply 25):
" AA acquired TWA as an asset acquisition while TWA was in bankruptcy,"

Wrong. TWA was not in bankruptcy until the AA take over was agreed to.

Excerpt from a letter written by Robert A. Pastore
Former Member, TWA Board of Directors
Former Chairman, TWA Master Executive Council, Air Line Pilots Association.

To
The Honorable Kay Bailey Hutchison
United States Senator

Some of your comments are misleading or lack a factual basis. Please allow my perspective.

You said, in response to Senator Talent?s motion for a Sense-of-the-Senate Amendment,
"I am very sad and very sorry about the situation with the TWA employees. It was a difficult situation when TWA was in bankruptcy. A number of airlines sought to take over TWA. American was the one that was willing to do it."

TWA was not in bankruptcy prior to American?s purchase. The bankruptcy filing by TWA was a condition of the Asset Purchase Agreement as written and proposed by American. Both Boards of Directors accepted the Asset Purchase agreement at about 5p.m. EST on January 9, 2001 and in compliance with the terms and conditions of the Agreement, immediately filed bankruptcy later that evening or early the next morning. One purpose of the bankruptcy filing was to evict Carl Icahn?s onerous Karabu Ticket Agreement. I have attached the Asset Purchase Agreement and call your attention to the Recitals.

At the time of the American purchase, TWA was in the midst of negotiations to merge with America West Airlines. The American deal was not mentioned to the TWA Board until January 9th, 2001 and came as a bit of a surprise, to say the least.

http://www.smilinjack.com/cgi/ultima...ebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000671

Thanks for digging that up... A little research goes a long way... Unfortunately facts don't phase some people. TWA was on a path to being quite successful prior to Flight 800, and then again it was starting to turn the boat at the time of the buyout by AA with the acquisition & orders of loads of new aircraft and refocusing on a more domestic route structure, though without getting rid of the Karabu agreements with Gordon Gekko er... um... Carl Icahn, TWA was always going to be handicapped. Now maybe they wouldn't have had time to turn the boat before they ran out of money or maybe they would have, we'll never know, but the idea that they were days from being liquidated when AA swooped in and galantly saved the day is a quite a stretch of the imagination at best.
 
questions
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:52 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 32):
It was a condition of the takeover because AA didn't want anything to do with the KARABU agreement and that was the only way to make sure they weren't bogged down by it.

I was wondering what the KARABU agreement was and found this:

For Those Who Ask, "What Is Karabu?" And TWA (by Acvitale Jun 12 2000 in Civil Aviation)
 
thegoldenargosy
Posts: 506
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:42 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 22):

Pan Am FA's did not keep their DOE at Delta. They lost some seniority. This is something many of the Pan Amers are still upset about.
 
rickabone
Topic Author
Posts: 154
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:44 am

Quoting questions (Reply 34):

I was wondering what the KARABU agreement was and found this:

It was one of the ways that Carl Icahn could ensure that he would be able to suck every last drop out of the airline even after he was forced to divest interest from it. Carl Icahn was one of the inspirations for the Gordon Gekko character and in my opinion, he's worse. He's the very definition of a vulture capitalist.
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4495
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:56 pm

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 35):
Pan Am FA's did not keep their DOE at Delta. They lost some seniority. This is something many of the Pan Amers are still upset about.

Delta didnt merge with Pan Am. It was an asset purchase. Plain and simple. Pan Am had to die, and good riddance. Delta picked the best remaining cheries for itself, and let the rotten ones die.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2361
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:06 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 18):
When DL acquired PA's European routes, they did not hire PA FA's?
Quoting tothestars (Reply 14):
Thank you DTWPurserBoy, and actually the president of APFA has publicly stated that it was a mistake and that they really messed up.

The PA f/a's had to interview for the jobs and many of the questions were so outrageous that it made "Sixty Minutes." The headline of one major New York newspaper was "We Love to Pry and It Shows." Those hired lost some seniority but they had good jobs.

I appreciate the clarification on the APFA's president's statement.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
WesternA318
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting rickabone (Reply 35):
Carl Icahn was one of the inspirations for the Gordon Gekko character and in my opinion, he's worse. He's the very definition of a vulture capitalist.

Funny you mention that....at my Investment Company the other day I was compared to Icahn, Gekko, Trump, AND Lorenzo.

Quoting rickabone (Reply 32):
TWA was on a path to being quite successful prior to Flight 800, and then again it was starting to turn the boat at the time of the buyout by AA with the acquisition & orders of loads of new aircraft and refocusing on a more domestic route structure, though without getting rid of the Karabu agreements with Gordon Gekko er... um... Carl Icahn, TWA was always going to be handicapped. Now maybe they wouldn't have had time to turn the boat before they ran out of money or maybe they would have, we'll never know, but the idea that they were days from being liquidated when AA swooped in and galantly saved the day is a quite a stretch of the imagination at best.

Ever since we began the re-imaging of TWA in 1995/96, we were climbing out the hole Icahn, Wilson, and Erickson put us in. It was almost as if a light bulb came on and the employees started working their butts off again. Certainly, while the new members of the fleet helped out a lot, so did the increased passenger levels. If I remember correctly, we won the JD Power awards for best on-time and best Domestic Carrier a couple of years in a row (or something to that effect, my memory is hazy). Towards the end of 1999 or so, upper managements vision began to get darker, and change. By mid-2000 or so...the BOD had an almost singular goal with the urge to merge or sell the airline. By December, AA was the only one that offered anything for us.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 25):
This totally debunks the whole "TWA would have liquidated if AA didn't ride in on a white horse and save their employees from losing whatever they had left" theory, therefore, will quickly be dismissed and ignored as though your post was never made. Ignorance as to the facts about TWA run rampant on this and other boards frequented by armchair airline CEO's

Amen...
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
ripcordd
Posts: 1037
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:27 pm

Sure it sucks TWA was stapled to the bottom but without AA and there was nobody else they all would have been on the street and what good is any seniority on the street. TWA employees had about 3 days left before the doors were locked and they were put on the street that was until AA came in and thru them a life line. So if they feel they can go back in time and adjust lets adjust AA not buying TWA at all.
 
tothestars
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:52 pm

RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:40 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 37):

"I appreciate the clarification on the APFA's president's statement."


Thanks DTWPurserBoy, i do try and back up my statements with documentation.
The following is an excerpt taken from the APFAs very own web sight from an interview with the Forth Worth Star Telegram. Note the use of the word "merger" by Ms. Glading.

http://www.apfa.org/content/view/2301/929/

"ST: There were seniority integration issues with the American-TWA merger. Who gets seniority if US Airways/American Airlines are merged?
Glading: I’ll take that one. Because we really screwed up on that big time with the flight attendants. When we merged with TWA, the company did give them top pay but we stapled them to the bottom of our seniority list. That was a mistake. But we did. So before at that time though there wasn’t the Allegheny–Mohawk provision was not legislated. Since then in December of 2007, McCaskill–Bond put together an amendment to the omnibus bill that said that seniority integration has to be agreed upon by the parties, if it’s not it goes to this binding arbitration process. So now we have this backstop."

So essentially what she's saying is as a result of APFA screwing TWA, a bill was passed that means that now APFA can't be screwed...so lets just move on.

[Edited 2013-03-25 08:37:00]
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ASFlyer
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 38):
Sure it sucks TWA was stapled to the bottom but without AA and there was nobody else they all would have been on the street and what good is any seniority on the street. TWA employees had about 3 days left before the doors were locked and they were put on the street that was until AA came in and thru them a life line. So if they feel they can go back in time and adjust lets adjust AA not buying TWA at all.

Hogwash. You're just repeating stuff that you've heard here and at other sites, not any of it with anything real to back it up.
 
AA767400
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:43 pm

This is a very serious issue for TW flight attendants. And rightfully so.

I will say that AA's purchase of TW was a big mistake. AA dismantled TW, and kept next to nothing. Essentially eliminating a competitor. All that is left of said merger is a handful of flights out of STL - additional M80s, and former TW employees.

The APFA stapled them to the bottom of the seniority list, and in turn - created discord amongst it's own work group. It's hard for former TW FAs to just "let it go". And sadly - even if APFA decides to grant them their DOH seniority, the damage is done. And that's something they'll never forgot. Out of an initial 4000 - 900 remain. Hopefully they do get their DOH seniority, and hopefully all involved can move on.

Where would TW be if AA had not purchased it? Who knows? In the end no one knows what would have become of them. But in this industry, it's ALL about seniority. Seniority is a great perk, but I dare say it also creates a system where people don't retire. I know I'll be flamed for this, but there should be a retirement age. Or an evaluation of the employee. Becuase let's be honest, there's some very entitled and complacent FAs out there. Most being pretty senior.

Just my two cents.   
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tothestars
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:50 pm

I respect your views AA767400 and I might add that in some cases I've seen a softening and empathy from some AA people. Maybe hardship does make one more caring to the plight of others. " There but for the grace of God go I."
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MaverickM11
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:42 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 40):
You're just repeating stuff that you've heard here and at other sites, not any of it with anything real to back it up.

TW didn't have much to look forward to, other than hubs in STL, JFK, LAX, and SJU, with B6 and WN clobbering them from every angle, and a fleet of 717/318s on the way to make matters worse. It wasn't assured liquidation, but there was no light at the end of the tunnel.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
tothestars
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:47 pm

We got it, but this is not about that subject.
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questions
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:48 am

Sorry if I missed this. Did the APFA represent FAs at TW and AA or just AA? If both, why did APFA screw its own people?
 
chepos
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:10 am

APFA did not represent TWA'ers prior to the acqusition, not sure who represented them. It would be the right thing to do (give them their seniority back), however I doubt it will happen.
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:50 pm

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 41):

I will say that AA's purchase of TW was a big mistake. AA dismantled TW, and kept next to nothing. Essentially eliminating a competitor. All that is left of said merger is a handful of flights out of STL - additional M80s, and former TW employees.

Curiously, IIRC, APFA did not do this to the former Reno Air or Air California flight attendants. How were they integrated--on a rank/ratio basis? And AA dismantled both of those carriers, too.
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MaverickM11
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RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:04 pm

Quoting tothestars (Reply 44):
We got it, but this is not about that subject.

I think it's pretty important to consider. I assume most unions have a structure in place to merge with another union, but what do they plan if they are acquiring a union out of bankruptcy? That could change the calculus of mergers both on the labor side and on the management side, and not in a good way.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
tothestars
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:52 pm

RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration

Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:05 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 47):
Curiously, IIRC, APFA did not do this to the former Reno Air or Air California flight attendants. How were they integrated--on a rank/ratio basis? And AA dismantled both of those carriers, too.

APFA stapled the Reno f/a as well. Reno Airlines was only 5 years old so although they were stapled to the bottom of the seniority list, AA was hiring and soon 4000 TWA f/a's stapled beneath them would push them up the seniority list. I'm not sure if they ever did anything to try and remedy this placement, but ultimately IMHO they did okay
Air Cal was given DOH.
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