Gonzalo
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LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:31 pm

Simone Menne, Chief Financial Officer of Lufthansa, told Reuters in a press conference :

"We are ready to go for further strikes, including with pilots, if necessary"
"We are ready to go for more strikes and will not agree to short-term harmony if there is long term further burdening "

Is she bluffing or really trying to start a war against the unions ??



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rampbro
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:54 pm

Aaaaaaand that's why accountants are not the best folks to do the talking.
 
aloges
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:33 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 1):
Aaaaaaand that's why accountants are not the best folks to do the talking.

They might want to check with their passengers whether or not those want them to be "prepared to fight".
I'm guessing there'd be more support for "prepared to fly", but hey, they're only your customers.

Lufthansa, I weep for you.

[Edited 2013-03-26 16:39:24]
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PHXFlyer16
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:46 pm

Another European carrier fighting the unions... sigh.

I feel for them. Unions are strangling these airlines and Europe in general with their entitlement attitudes and it continues to catch on in the US. And people wonder why the Middle East carriers are crushing everyone else.

Very short sighted by the unions. Ultimately you will get more money but several of your co-workers won't be around to enjoy in your greed. Even more of your passengers will have had enough with the fare hikes and fly other carriers when possible.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:03 am

This is why a deregulated industry is great. If one airline is on strike/lock out or MIA, there will likely be other airlines there to snap up the business.

Like it or not, the Middle Eastern airlines have changed the paradigm. The ULH aircraft now being deployed have further pushed the industry away from the 1970-2000 era. Both management and the unions must see that and they have to set up their relationship to be able to compete with these airlines or go the way of the dodo.
 
aloges
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:16 am

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 3):
Ultimately you will get more money but several of your co-workers won't be around to enjoy in your greed.

What greed? They're not asking for anything out of this world - and factoring in that unions rarely ever get what they ask for, they must already be asking for more than what even they believe they can get. All in all, the LH staff in question will be lucky to preserve the status quo when all is said and done.

On the other hand, confrontational comments from management like those made by Ms Menne will only drive more people away from LH. "We're prepared for strikes!" means little else than "We don't care if you make it to your destination!"
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PHXFlyer16
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:25 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 5):
On the other hand, confrontational comments from management like those made by Ms Menne will only drive more people away from LH. "We're prepared for strikes!" means little else than "We don't care if you make it to your destination!"

I disagree... You have to stand up. If MGT continues to roll over and give in then it sets a precident that all anyone has to do when they do when they decide they want another raise in 6mo is threaten to strike again. It happens again and again and again and you are now Air France or Iberia.
 
aloges
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 6):

Yeah, no. That's not the corporate culture in Germany. Co-determination has forced unions to face the realities of business; when you're a board member, you can't really play the "us versus them" game without ending up a hypocrite. We were once known, and this very much includes Lufthansa, for the low amount of strikes that occurred. But when businesses and politicians started fighting the big unions, successfully in many cases, the workers who no longer felt represented properly joined smaller, specialised unions - and voilà, we got to the mess we're in now. One month it's cabin crew, the next it's ground and then the pilots start again... rinse and repeat in twelve months because nobody seems to sign contracts for more than that amount of time anymore.
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Flighty
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 5):
On the other hand, confrontational comments from management

Managers fight for the shareholder and customer interests. They don't work for employees. In other words, this is not a "fight" among equals. Managers have a duty to manage the company. Workers have a duty to work there, or leave.

At least in my worldview. I don't make childish threats to anyone. Is the LH CFO doing that, not directly but a little too close for comfort.
 
aloges
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:45 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Managers fight for the shareholder and customer interests.

Interesting priorities...  Anyway, the employees are a major assett to any company, particularly one in a service industry. I cannot for the life of me imagine how the current tone set by management might help preserve the value of that assett.

Bearing in mind that LH management has, over the years, spent (or even wasted) millions upon millions on BMI et al while ignoring several key product trends, I can definitely understand a certain dissatisfaction among the workforce.
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MaverickM11
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:56 am

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 6):
You have to stand up. If MGT continues to roll over and give in then it sets a precident that all anyone has to do when they do when they decide they want another raise in 6mo is threaten to strike again. It happens again and again and again and you are now Air France or Iberia.

Both sides can do what they want; that invisible hand will slap them back to reality regardless in the end. Hey Malev!
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michman
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:19 am

Where does she ever say "We're prepared to fight"??? If she didn't say it, don't put it in quotes!!
 
AR385
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 3):
Very short sighted by the unions. Ultimately you will get more money but several of your co-workers won't be around to enjoy in your greed.

You may wish to take a look at what happened with IB the last few weeks in Spain. The unions got exactly what they wanted and IAG was forced to accept things they had said they would never agree to.
 
avek00
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:33 am

It's about time! For years, European airline managers have had to pull all sorts of rabbits out the proverbial hat to deal with very expensive and inefficient labor infrastructures. The era of magic spells is now over, with US partners and Mideast & Asian rivals both putting pressure on Euro legacies to no longer be the costliest airlines in the world from an operating standpoint.
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RyanairGuru
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:33 am

Playing devils advocate here...

Quoting aloges (Reply 9):
Interesting priorities

It's the law, management of a public interest have to act in the interests of the shareholders.

Arguably customers are #2 priority as it is their money you need to be profitable.

Quoting aloges (Reply 9):
for the life of me imagine how the current tone set by management might help preserve the value of that assett

Technically employees aren't an asset.


As I said, I'm playing devils advocate. I don't necessarily agree with the legal regime as it stands, but it is what it is
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aloges
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:50 am

Quoting michman (Reply 11):
Where does she ever say "We're prepared to fight"??? If she didn't say it, don't put it in quotes!!

One article in German coming up:

Quote:
Lufthansa zeigt sich unnachgiebig

Die Tarifverhandlungen bei der Lufthansa sind festgefahren. Die Finanzchefin gibt sich weiterhin hart: „Wir sind bereit für neue Streiks, notfalls auch der Piloten, wenn wir dadurch unsere langfristigen Ziele erreichen.“
(...)
„Wir würden nicht wegen kurzfristiger Harmonie unser langfristiges Wachstum aufs Spiel setzen“, ...

Those are the relevant quotes, now for the translation:

Lufthansa unbending

The labour dispute at Lufthansa is going nowhere. The CFO remains tough: "We are prepared for more strikes, possibly even pilots' strikes, if this is how we can achieve our long-term goals."
(...)
"We would not jeopardise long-term growth for short-term harmony" ...

Quoting avek00 (Reply 13):
For years, European airline managers have had to pull all sorts of rabbits out the proverbial hat to deal with very expensive and inefficient labor infrastructures.

You mean like the lower wages and longer hours that LH staff have already swallowed up?
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Aesma
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:51 am

Does Simone Menne take the same kind of pay/benefits cuts offered to employees ?
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Gonzalo
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:00 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 9):
Bearing in mind that LH management has, over the years, spent (or even wasted) millions upon millions on BMI et al while ignoring several key product trends, I can definitely understand a certain dissatisfaction among the workforce.

And probably the timing for this kind of statements from a CFO wasn't the best, specially if we consider that right now in this same fórums we have this :

Lufthansa To Acquire Brussels Airliners For 100% (by SN535 Mar 26 2013 in Civil Aviation)

LH To Launch A Long Haul Low Cost Carrier? (by AF185 Mar 25 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting michman (Reply 11):
Where does she ever say "We're prepared to fight"??? If she didn't say it, don't put it in quotes!!

Was there earlier today, even was the title of a couple of articles in the press. I always try to not use the same titles of related press releases in respect of the site rules re copyright ( I already had a couple of threads deleted in the past for that reason ) . In any case, if you read what she said out there in the web, you should see that she is in fact proposing a fight against the unions, no matter what semantic or grammar she could use.


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PHXFlyer16
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:07 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 12):
You may wish to take a look at what happened with IB the last few weeks in Spain. The unions got exactly what they wanted and IAG was forced to accept things they had said they would never agree to.

Exactly, and that's not a good thing. IB was already bleeding money. This will only make matters worse. Wait and see if those higher wages are worth the whole airline shrinking or closing down and many many people losing their jobs. An unprofitable business will in the end suffer the consequences. It is because of Spain's entitlement culture that unemployment is astronomical and they are suffering a debt crisis.
 
aloges
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:09 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 17):
And probably the timing for this kind of statements from a CFO wasn't the best, specially if we consider that right now in this same fórums we have this :

...and this, too:

LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 1 (by FlyingAY Mar 14 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Sadly, timing is just one of the many things they're currently mucking up. For instance, I'm quite curious about the "new Germanwings" where employees from two different categories will, in all likelihood, end up working flights together: those hired by LH under the older, better terms and those hired by 4U... you can already taste the delicious atmosphere on board, can't you?

What gets me the most is this total disregard for people - a no-no in a service industry, if I'm any judge. They're basically telling their employees that their work is worth less and always less and Ms Menne's message to passengers is "We don't really care if you're affected by strikes!"

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 18):
It is because of Spain's entitlement culture that unemployment is astronomical and they are suffering a debt crisis.

I'm just wondering: What is this extremely broad statement of yours based on? Do you simply feel, well, entitled to an opinion because you've heard it somewhere and liked the sound of it or have you actually studied Spain to such a degree that your opinion is qualified?

[Edited 2013-03-26 19:11:59]
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RyanairGuru
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:11 am

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 18):
It is because of Spain's entitlement culture that unemployment is astronomical and they are suffering a debt crisis.

Wow, easy there. I agree in principle with a lot of what you said, but this is flat out wrong. Spain does have very generous employment law, I agree.

BUT the economic maelstrom was caused - almost exclusively - by their poorly leveraged banks. It had nothing to do with an "entitlement culture".
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MaverickM11
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:14 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 19):

What gets me the most is this total disregard for people - a no-no in a service industry, if I'm any judge.

A) Nobody pays for service. B) The union protection against economic reality is a bit like King Canute commanding the tide to stop coming in, so you end up getting these huge, dramatic step changes that piss everyone off, rather than starting from a flexible structure that can roll with the economic punches. It's a story as old as deregulation, but one thing is for certain, no one will learn from it.
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futureualpilot
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:15 am

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 3):
I feel for them. Unions are strangling these airlines and Europe in general with their entitlement attitudes and it continues to catch on in the US. And people wonder why the Middle East carriers are crushing everyone else.

Yeah, darn those employees for wanting to be treated fair and compensated justly for their time and effort. What a selfish attitude they must have. Middle east carriers tend to have better work rules and compensate their crews much better, generally speaking than any other place in the world which prevents the need for unions to begin with. FYI, US legacy carriers, all of whom are unionized are expected to show a profit. The reason for the disparity between middle east carriers and "everyone else" is far, far beyond union vs non-union.

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 3):
Very short sighted by the unions.

But not the management type who admits they're willing to fight? Very disingenuous to only cite the unions for being short sighted here.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Managers fight for the shareholder and customer interests. They don't work for employees.

Perhaps this is part of the problem. Fighting for shareholder and customer interests tends to be done at the expense of the quality of life of the labor force that makes the company function. With nobody to stand between management and the employees you get...a union.



[Edited 2013-03-26 19:19:02]

[Edited 2013-03-26 19:22:51]
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MaverickM11
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:20 am

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 22):
Middle east carriers tend to have better work rules and compensate their crews much better, generally speaking than any other place in the world which prevents the need for unions to begin with.

If you want carriers to fire you because you gained a pound, had a hair out of place, turned 36, or rejected the overture of some nasty sheikh, then go on right ahead!
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
PHXFlyer16
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:22 am

I studied in Spain two years ago during the PIGS crisis and this was discussed regularly in class. I witnessed the protests and people living in the parks in protest.

I am not trying to single out Spain, its a great place that I love. That goes for all of Europe, but policies around pensions and unions, retirement, etc have created a dangerous business climate. While much of the world is starting to rebound, Europe is lacking behind because of their laws.

The same thing is happening in the US to a lesser degree. This is why Asian is kicking all of our butts lately. I am not trying to be negative, rather expressing my concern and sadness how these once great countries, economies and airlines are struggling so much.
 
AR385
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:28 am

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 18):
Wait and see if those higher wages

What higher wages? You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?
 
futureualpilot
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:29 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
If you want carriers to fire you because you gained a pound, had a hair out of place, turned 36, or rejected the overture of some nasty sheikh, then go on right ahead!

I have no issue with that. I'm not required to go work there and neither is anybody else.
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PHXFlyer16
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:30 am

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 22):
Yeah, darn those employees for wanting to be treated fair and compensated justly for their time and effort. What a selfish attitude they must have. Middle east carriers tend to have better work rules and compensate their crews much better, generally speaking than any other place in the world which prevents the need for unions to begin with

I'm sorry, but I am pretty sure they are treated better than most. It reminds me of auto workers in the US who were getting these ridiculous pensions and salaries and could smoke pot and drink during their lunch break, get caught on camera, and NOT be fired. There is no accountability these days at the personal level.

If I am unhappy with my job or pay then I look for employment elsewhere. It is not my employers responsibly to meet my demands. At the end of the day I am the one to be held accountable to whether I meet my life goals, nobody else.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:33 am

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 27):
It reminds me of auto workers in the US who were getting these ridiculous pensions and salaries and could smoke pot and drink during their lunch break, get caught on camera, and NOT be fired.
This sort of mentality is the downside of unionism. Similarly US apparently had some people on the ramp at PHL who did, well, nothing. Thankfully the company finally got rid of them.

There is a big difference, however, between protecting your right to drink while building a high precision machine that people are going to entrust their life to, and protecting legitimate interests such as wages.
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futureualpilot
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:38 am

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 27):
I'm sorry, but I am pretty sure they are treated better than most.

I don't know too much about LH and their policies but if a labor group is willing to strike I can only assume what is being asked of them is unfair.

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 27):
It reminds me of auto workers in the US who were getting these ridiculous pensions and salaries and could smoke pot and drink during their lunch break, get caught on camera, and NOT be fired.

Agreed, but we're not talking about auto workers in the states. Unions aren't perfect and neither is management, contrary to the beliefs of this website. Protecting workers who slack off, cut corners and take advantage of the system isn't right but neither is coming after your employee's wages and quality of life in the name of your shareholders.

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 27):
There is no accountability these days at the personal level.

Agreed. Nor is their accountability at the upper managerial level.

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 27):
If I am unhappy with my job or pay then I look for employment elsewhere.

As are the LH employees but in a world where seniority means everything it is a different game. In most industries you can translate your experience and prior salary to something fair at a new job. Perhaps not the same but livable. Not so in the airlines. Likely the biggest downfall of our choosing to perpetuate a seniority based system.

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 27):
It is not my employers responsibly to meet my demands.

No but it is their responsibility to abide by the agreements they make with you. If they agree to a contract then it remains reasonable to expect both you, and your management to abide by its terms.

[Edited 2013-03-26 19:39:53]
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PHXFlyer16
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:38 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
What higher wages? You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

Yes, current salaries are higher relative to proposed cuts. This is unsustainable and is not in the long term interest of the airline's survival.
 
aloges
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:39 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
A) Nobody pays for service.

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. What is air transportation, if not a service and how do you get someone to provide it to you if not by paying for it?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
B) The union protection against economic reality

You don't really seem to have a grasp on unions in Germany. Please see the link in reply no. 7 for some basic information.

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 24):
I witnessed the protests and people living in the parks in protest.

Did you, by any chance, ask them what had happened to them and what they wanted?

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 24):
This is why Asian is kicking all of our butts lately.

That's so crassly oversimplified that I don't even know where to start picking it apart... and we're far off topic, too, so I won't even try.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
AR385
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:45 am

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 30):
Yes, current salaries are higher relative to proposed cuts. This is unsustainable and is not in the long term interest of the airline's survival.

Take a look at this.

IAG Accepts IB Mediation - Unions Pending (by Stratofish Mar 10 2013 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=5711399&searchid=5714050&s=Ib#ID5714050
 
MaverickM11
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:47 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 31):
I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. What is air transportation, if not a service and how do you get someone to provide it to you if not by paying for it?

You implied that poor service due to crew animosity would drive passengers away, which, were it true, there'd be about two airlines left.

Quoting aloges (Reply 31):

You don't really seem to have a grasp on unions in Germany.

Love that a.net condescension

Quoting aloges (Reply 31):
Please see the link in reply no. 7 for some basic information.

The basic underlying economics are the same the world over, outside of places like China etc.. European carriers have major challenges on the revenue side, set against an unprecedented crisis, so whether the cost inputs (including labor) have unions, or seats on the board, or a direct line to mother Gaia, they're going to be under the microscope to decrease costs or increase flexibility--really two sides of the same coin.
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Gonzalo
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:52 am

Regarding all the Management / Unions relations, and how they treat each other, I remember a few years ago, I read a book about Southwest Airlines and its success. One of the aspects frequently highlighted in the book was the care from the management ( from Herb Keller to all the other high positions, through supervision workers ) to the mainline workers. They had some sort of ability to even take advantages from the occasional conflicts that show up from time to time.
I know Southwest and LH are not comparable, nor the way of thinking of the people in the US and Germany, but there are very simple steps that any manager of any country could take, steps that are available for anyone who read the book....

I guess Mss. Menne didn't read that book yet   


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MaverickM11
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 34):
One of the aspects frequently highlighted in the book was the care from the management ( from Herb Keller to all the other high positions, through supervision workers ) to the mainline workers.

WN essentially bought its labor peace, which worked for a long time, but is now proving a challenge.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
aloges
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:58 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
You implied that poor service due to crew animosity would drive passengers away, which, were it true, there'd be about two airlines left.

There's a lot of choice in the skies of Europe. If 4U fails to deliver what LH has so far managed to keep delivering, passengers will fly on other carriers. The 4U that I know contains far too much easyJet for it to replace LH wihout any loss of loyalty. Add this new scent of "we don't care" that management is currently spraying and it will only get worse.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
The basic underlying economics are the same the world over

They most certainly are not. The infamous Chapter 11, for instance, is a complete game changer.
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MaverickM11
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 36):

There's a lot of choice in the skies of Europe

Sure is, but 'service' isn't driving buying decisions in any meaningful way. Either that or Ryanair has incredible service.

Quoting aloges (Reply 36):
Add this new scent of "we don't care" that management is currently spraying and it will only get worse.

Works great for the most profitable carrier in Europe

Quoting aloges (Reply 36):
They most certainly are not. The infamous Chapter 11, for instance, is a complete game changer.

No, it doesn't change the economic trends; if anything it slows down the cycle since failing carriers get a second chance rather than failing completely and decisively. Ultimately you end up at the same place: a level of capacity that the market can afford, either with carriers failing (CH7 in the US or bankruptcy in EU) and pulling out capacity, or with carriers reducing costs (in CH11 or costs cuts) and reducing the cost of that capacity. Either way the fairly inelastic travel spend out there is buying the same dollar amount of travel, and LCCs and Gulf Carriers continue to eat everybody's lunch anyway, and we repeat a couple years later.
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LOWS
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:24 am

Quoting PHXFlyer16 (Reply 24):
I am not trying to single out Spain, its a great place that I love. That goes for all of Europe, but policies around pensions and unions, retirement, etc have created a dangerous business climate. While much of the world is starting to rebound, Europe is lacking behind because of their laws.

So, if I make some massively broad conclusions about the enitre US based on my experience studying in Oklahoma, would that be ok with you?

In Austria, Germany and a few other European countries, we have very proud histories of working together. It is very effective. We have pride from it. Generally, it works very effectively in continaing employee/employer discontent.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:55 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 7):
Yeah, no. That's not the corporate culture in Germany. Co-determination has forced unions to face the realities of business; when you're a board member, you can't really play the "us versus them" game without ending up a

Nice in theory, but Mr. Frank Bsirske, head of the infamous Ver.di union and co-chairman of the LH board has, throughout his mandate, always worked against the interest of the company, which at the end are the interests oif the workers in LH as well. Bsirske has never been approved and as a board member on the capitral sign would have been a case for the DA, but Germany's exclusive "workers co-determination" whch is BS in itself and may work in small companies, but in large ones is union determination, prevents him from that.

Jiust recently, Ver.di initiated several strikes with small groups, security checkers for instance, which damages the airline more than the employers of these people.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
Does Simone Menne take the same kind of pay/benefits cuts offered to employees ?

She just started and her total income depends on the success of the company

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Managers fight for the shareholder and customer interests. They don't work for employees.

If the managers keep the company ahead in the competition, which in the case of airlines is world wide, they work in the interests of all, the customers, sthe hareholders and the employees

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 22):
Middle east carriers tend to have better work rules and compensate their crews much better, generally speaking than any other place in the world which prevents the need for unions to begin with. FYI, US

Are you joking? Try to strike in any of these countries which are ruled by decret instead of the law. Try to breal a custom and you find yourself, as an expat, on the next flight out., In which case you have taken the lucky draw.
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seahawk
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:02 am

It is good for the unions to know that they now must fight. And they should not compromise at all.
 
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:25 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 39):
She just started and her total income depends on the success of the company

As does the total income of all Lufthansa employees under its profit-sharing schemes. But I bet Menne wasn't hired at a much, much lower fixed rate like all those cabin staff were, to take one example. I think Aesma's point stands.
 
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zkokq
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:42 am

Borrow Alan Joyce, that will fix the unions..

Company's shouldn't be held to the extortion of unions wants and demands. Otherwise we will end up in a place where we only have the gulf carriers.

Aviation is already a tough business as it is.
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:43 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 12):
You may wish to take a look at what happened with IB the last few weeks in Spain. The unions got exactly what they wanted and IAG was forced to accept things they had said they would never agree to.

Did they? There are still large scale redundancies and the reduction in the number of redundancies will be offset by productivity improvements.

IAG compromised (as it probably knew it would have to), but fundamentally it got what it was seeking.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:57 am

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 41):
As does the total income of all Lufthansa employees under its profit-sharing schemes. B

The shareholders get another zero year. Nil, nada, nichts. Ms. Menne gets paid for conrolling the employment costs, that is not a lottery win, she needs qualifications to fill that job and whatever she gets, it is a free market rate. .

We have other threads running alongside this one where users say that LHs costs are too high. Exactly. A company that does not control its costs will not stay in business. At the end that means a great nu,mber of or all jobs are lost.

I never understood why people follow this union folklore of warning strikes and running around in cut out litter bags with silly slogans printed and making stupid noises. At the end of the day this goes into mediation anyhow. If they want more salary they have to work more.

Right now LH offers zero and 1 hour addtional work. The union same work hours and a lunatic 5,2% If they meet at 3% and 3 hours additonal work per week it is a good compromise.

The employees have to understood that the times when unprofitable routes where carried along "because the company had to show flag in that market" are over. A route that does not make money is given up along with the jobs it takes to operate that route.

There is no other way, simple fact.
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AR385
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:07 am

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 43):
Did they? There are still large scale redundancies and the reduction in the number of redundancies will be offset by productivity improvements.

IAG compromised (as it probably knew it would have to), but fundamentally it got what it was seeking.

They got a lot less people to be fired.
They got much less reductions in payment scale
And much more importantly, all redundancies, will be under the ERE of 2001 rather than the current one.

If you still think the unions didn´t get what they were after and IAG did, you need to read the agreed (ish) conditions and come down from that "IAG can do no wrong" bubble of yours. The fact that IAG knew all along that in the end these were the conditions they needed to agree to (after all, this was what they were about to agree on in January, except for the EREs) has no bearing at all since they would not have agreed to them if the unions had not gone into strike with such force. IAG underestimated IB´s unions and thus had to retrench.

I´m not sure we´ve seen the end of the story though, I´ll give you that.
 
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:09 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 45):
and come down from that "IAG can do no wrong" bubble of yours.

That is rather unnecessary.

IAG made clear they anticipated industrial action and was prepared for it. If IAG couldn't get a satisfactory outcome, there was no doubt a "Plan B" in a desk drawer.

[Edited 2013-03-27 03:11:34]

[Edited 2013-03-27 03:12:33]
 
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:26 am

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 46):
That is rather unnecessary.

But, honestly, quite deserved.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 46):
If IAG couldn't get a satisfactory outcome, there was no doubt a "Plan B" in a desk drawer.

Which they failed to show. At the end, I'd agree that IAG got most of what they wanted, although at a higher price...
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mozart
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:52 am

Ouch, not very smart of her to make that kind of statement.

Indeed, all European legacy carriers face a huge challenge with cost and especially with labour cost. IAG does, AFKL does, LH Group does. LH Group has the benefit of the healthiest financial situation (still, let's see for how much longer) and a healthy operating income. But the challenges do exist. Fine.

But whether the right tone and attitude she has chosen to display is appropriate and the smartest way to get results I do doubt. Having said that, her "counterpart" does do the same thing.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):

Does Simone Menne take the same kind of pay/benefits cuts offered to employees

Why should she? I agree that it is a nice symbolic gesture that management "shares the pain", but in the end she is being paid for increasing shareholder value. Employees are paid for flying planes, serving customers, being FAs, repairing planes, etc.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 22):
Yeah, darn those employees for wanting to be treated fair and compensated justly for their time and effort.

And who tells you that what they are asking for is "fair treatment and just compensation for their time and effort"? Is Lufthansa's level of compensation and organization of work "fair and just"? Or easyjet's?

I would argue that the economics and the functioning of the airline industry have changed and therefore what appeared fair and just may no longer be fair and just today. This is of course difficult for those that have been around since some time because it means that they "lose out" compared to the rosy days. But that is true in many sectors.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 22):
But not the management type who admits they're willing to fight? Very disingenuous to only cite the unions for being short sighted here.

Agreed.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 22):
Perhaps this is part of the problem. Fighting for shareholder and customer interests tends to be done at the expense of the quality of life of the labor force that makes the company function. With nobody to stand between management and the employees you get...a union.

Whilst I am all for unions and against simplistic statements of the "unions are working against the company's success" kind I find the kind of simplistic statements where employees are the victims just as "unconvincing".

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
What higher wages? You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

They want higher wages. That is a fact, read the article.

Quoting aloges (Reply 7):
Yeah, no. That's not the corporate culture in Germany. Co-determination has forced unions to face the realities of business; when you're a board member, you can't really play the "us versus them" game without ending up a hypocrite.

Of all the DAX30 companies in Germany Lufthansa is the only one where there often is a split board between employees and "capital" and the Chairman needs to use his double vote.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 28):
There is a big difference, however, between protecting your right to drink while building a high precision machine that people are going to entrust their life to, and protecting legitimate interests such as wages.

FYI: workers at BMW plants are allowed to drink beer.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 29):
As are the LH employees but in a world where seniority means everything it is a different game. In most industries you can translate your experience and prior salary to something fair at a new job. Perhaps not the same but livable. Not so in the airlines. Likely the biggest downfall of our choosing to perpetuate a seniority based system.

Those are the rules of the game. If you don't like them, don't join aviation. It's not even new rules that have come upon them once they started their job. These rules have been around always.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 29):
No but it is their responsibility to abide by the agreements they make with you. If they agree to a contract then it remains reasonable to expect both you, and your management to abide by its terms.

You are joking, right? Fair enough to have a pro-Union point of view, but accusing Lufthansa or other companies not to abide by the contracts that have been signed is quite a substantial accusation. And completely baseless. You dis-credit all your other arguments.

Both parties respect the contracts. It is about the terms of future contracts that they clash.
 
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RE: LH CFO Defies Unions: "We're Prepared To Fight"

Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:03 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 44):
I never understood why people follow this union folklore of warning strikes and running around in cut out litter bags with silly slogans printed and making stupid noises. At the end of the day this goes into mediation anyhow. If they want more salary they have to work more. Right now LH offers zero and 1 hour additional work. The union same work hours and a lunatic 5,2% If they meet at 3% and 3 hours additional work per week it is a good compromise.

I have the same feeling. The vast majority of people out there ( I'm sure over 90 % ) looking for an airline to fly from point A to point B is absolutely indifferent about the unions or workers claims. They want a reliable airline providing the service they are paying for. When the unions starts with this announcements and threats about strikes and similar actions, they are biting the hand that feeds them. And this actions, sooner or later, ends always in the same way, with the management doing a couple of concessions here and there, and the unions accepting a lot less than the original claims. I fail to understand why they ( both sides really ) are so rigid at the beginning and only start to think in a way out of the mess when the damage to the company is already done.

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