atlflyer
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Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:38 pm

 
AeroWesty
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Interesting article, thanks for posting the link. I hadn't realized that the 8X was planned for EIS two years after the 9X.

With the statements that Boeing realizes that 10-abreast isn't the most comfortable for the 777 family, and planning on thinner interior walls to make that configuration more feasible, I have to wonder what kind of penalty the plane would take to widen the fuselage a few inches. Is it all that much?
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airfrnt
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:30 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
With the statements that Boeing realizes that 10-abreast isn't the most comfortable for the 777 family, and planning on thinner interior walls to make that configuration more feasible, I have to wonder what kind of penalty the plane would take to widen the fuselage a few inches. Is it all that much?

The engineering cost would be prohibitive.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:40 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
With the statements that Boeing realizes that 10-abreast isn't the most comfortable for the 777 family, and planning on thinner interior walls to make that configuration more feasible, I have to wonder what kind of penalty the plane would take to widen the fuselage a few inches. Is it all that much?

A change in the exterior dimensioning of the fuselage would be a massive undertaking. New tooling, new assembly processes, possibly new certification.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:47 am

There are a lot of good points here - The example of Korea Air is especially important. I fly the LAX-ICN flight frequently. I've never seen business class sold out (on average, I would guess that on average 1/3d of the four times I have flown it since march have been open). This is on a carrier that already is starting with the lowest seat density of any of the 380 providers. That means that Airbus can try and get back advantage by going bigger, but there is little evidence that the carriers can deal with that amount of capacity.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:07 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
Boeing realizes that 10-abreast isn't the most comfortable for the 777 family

Since 2011, Airlines & Boeing are not agree with you.

http://i70.servimg.com/u/f70/17/03/84/59/777_110.jpg

beware of Aspire Aviation numbers, there's a lot of imagination and speculation. Does anyone really believe that the engine will not exceed 100,000 pounds of thrust? Class F aircraft (like A380) ? folding wingtips (LOL!) etc...
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting queb (Reply 5):
Since 2011, Airlines & Boeing are not agree with you.

That's not how I read the linked article:

Quote:
We’re looking for a more comfortable 10-abreast,” Boeing Commercial Airplanes (BCA) vice president (VP) in marketing Randy Tinseth said on the sidelines of the International Society of Transport Aircraft Trading (ISTAT) conference in March.

Why would Boeing look for a more comfortable 10-abreast, if it was the most comfortable seating arrangement already?

[Edited 2013-03-28 18:21:21]
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TWA772LR
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:19 am

Quoting queb (Reply 5):

He's talking about passenger comfort.
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flightsimer
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:26 am

Quoting queb (Reply 5):
beware of Aspire Aviation numbers, there's a lot of imagination and speculation. Does anyone really believe that the engine will not exceed 100,000 pounds of thrust? Class F aircraft (like A380) ? folding wingtips (LOL!) etc...

Sure it will be capable of more than 100,000lbs of thrust just like the GE-90-115 is capable of more than 115,000lbs of thrust, but it is indeed targeted to have only 100,000lbs of thrust available for normal operations.

Class F, again, that's not made up, that's fact. Classes are not just made up on a whim. If your wingspan is within that range, you are in that class, unless you do what Boeing is doing and artificially shorten it while on the ground.

I would be more shocked to hear boring doesn't use folding wingtip than to see them actually do it.

As for the article, it was the most objective article I have read in a while. It had every detail released so far and some new things that hadn't been, as far as I'm aware, and combined it into one big article. Certainly painted a clearer picture in my head.
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queb
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:29 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 7):
He's talking about passenger comfort.

I'm talking about money.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting Atlflyer (Thread starter):
Great article on detailed specs of the 777x.

Unfortunately, it is so poorly written, I'm having a hard time getting through it.
 
queb
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:43 am

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 8):
Class F

A class F aircraft means more airport taxes, much less accessible airport. Boeing can do the 777X without exceeding 65 meters wingspan.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:57 am

Quoting queb (Reply 9):

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 7):
He's talking about passenger comfort.

I'm talking about money.

10 wide Econ class is the reality going forward. Boeing is looking into carving out the sidewalls to allow for slightly wider seats. North Americans and Euros are having more and more trouble fitting into the narrow seats in Economy  
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:29 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
A change in the exterior dimensioning of the fuselage would be a massive undertaking. New tooling, new assembly processes, possibly new certification.

It's funny, the difference in complexity between stretching a plane and widening it.
 
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par13del
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:35 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
Why would Boeing look for a more comfortable 10-abreast, if it was the most comfortable seating arrangement already?
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 7):
He's talking about passenger comfort.
Quoting queb (Reply 9):
I'm talking about money.

Boeing is at least looking at pax comfort, the airlines have gone to 10 abreast as the figures have shown and pax have had to just grin and bear it.

I expect the extra width will be enough to make 10 abreast with wider seats but not enough to go 11 or 12 abreast.
The trade off if the walls are thinner will be an increase in interior nose, something which some folks say is already louder than the competition.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:37 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 14):
The trade off if the walls are thinner will be an increase in interior nose, something which some folks say is already louder than the competition.

Improved engine technology and a lower power requirement should address that issue to some extent.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:10 am

Quoting queb (Reply 11):
A class F aircraft means more airport taxes, much less accessible airport. Boeing can do the 777X without exceeding 65 meters wingspan.

Boeing seems to disagree with you. Everything we've seen about the 777X in the last 4-6 months has focused on the 71+ m wingspan with the "simple" (no moving parts on the tip) folding tips.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:13 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 14):
and pax have had to just grin and bear it.

Seems they are willing to do that in exchange for fare levels that have not kept pace with rate of inflation. Has a $600 fare 20 years ago risen to $1000 in 2013, I don't think so.
I remember paying about $2000 from YYZ-AKL in the 1990's . It is still around $2000.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:55 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 16):
Boeing seems to disagree with you. Everything we've seen about the 777X in the last 4-6 months has focused on the 71+ m wingspan with the "simple" (no moving parts on the tip) folding tips.

If the 777X wingspan is more than 65 meters, airport restrictions will be the same than A380, not very economical for a 405 passengers aircraft (according to Boeing standards) that will probably have around 380-385 seats in the real life.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:06 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 10):

Unfortunately, it is so poorly written, I'm having a hard time getting through it.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:14 am

Quoting PM (Reply 19):
Quoting mham001 (Reply 10):Unfortunately, it is so poorly written, I'm having a hard time getting through it.Glad to hear I'm not the only one.

It's like they never heard of a period. It was a very cumbersome read, but it had some decent info. Not sure if I see it all the same as they do but it was generally informative. Just cumbersome.

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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:14 am

Quoting queb (Reply 18):
If the 777X wingspan is more than 65 meters, airport restrictions will be the same than A380, not very economical for a 405 passengers aircraft (according to Boeing standards) that will probably have around 380-385 seats in the real life.


That is the point of the folding wingtips. On the runway the B777X becomes category F with a 71.1m wingspan. On the taxiways and at the gates, it becomes a category E aircraft due to the folding wingtips making the wingspan 64.8m (same as the B777-300ER/200LR. Hence the category E conditions will apply to the B777X everywhere but the runway.
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ODwyerPW
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:45 am

I enjoyed the specific details (despite the 777X hate in the reader comments).

However, the writing was tough to endure. Some of the sentences spanned 6 lines! Six Lines. The opening sentence contained 75 words! 75 words! Many more if you count hyphenated words as two words!

I cannot imagine many of my bilingual 'engineering-type' friends, who speak English as their second language, being able to thoroughly comprehend that article at all.

Positioning of the 778 as a direct head to head competitor to the A351 is interesting, especially as it arrives some 4 years later.

Peter

[Edited 2013-03-28 22:24:34]
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:22 am

Quoting queb (Reply 18):
If the 777X wingspan is more than 65 meters, airport restrictions will be the same than A380, not very economical for a 405 passengers aircraft (according to Boeing standards) that will probably have around 380-385 seats in the real life.

Please completely ignore the ICAO wingspan classing. All the widebodies I looked into have their own unique guidlines for airport compatiblity.

The A380 for example is largely treated the same as a 747 with special restrictions on centerline spacing for its wingspan. If you don't have enough spacing you can still operate it with special ground handling procedures Oh and they did mandate Code F firefighting equipment. You DO NOT need Code F runway widths. You DO NOT need Code F taxiway widths.

More importantly there is things the general guidelines doesn't handle. A airport might be completely incompatible with a 777 but allows A346.. Or the reverse. The 777 has very high pavement loading, and the A346 needs huge radius turns.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:56 am

Quoting waly777 (Reply 21):
That is the point of the folding wingtips. On the runway the B777X becomes category F with a 71.1m wingspan. On the taxiways and at the gates, it becomes a category E aircraft due to the folding wingtips making the wingspan 64.8m (same as the B777-300ER/200LR. Hence the category E conditions will apply to the B777X everywhere but the runway.

Now the question is: Will the authorities accept that?? or, will they say that the plane is cat F and that´s it??? is a plane allowed to be in two different categories??

i see here a few issues, specially the certification of this folding wings, on a fighter is not an issue, but on a comercial plane... that´s a much more tricky issue.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 13):
It's funny, the difference in complexity between stretching a plane and widening it.


Making it wider is a completely new design, and not only the plane, but also the tools and the process to do, as seen with the A350 and the A350XWB, they have to do a whole new plane and process...
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:06 am

from what i read this new 777 is going to be a "787 shape alike" with better engines. the real improvement over the older version seems to be the engines. reminds me what airbus offered with the first A350 version, an engine change and new wings. why not boeing, its way cheaper than a whole new design.
im defenitely not going to hold my breath on this new 777.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:33 am

Quoting queb (Reply 5):
Since 2011, Airlines & Boeing are not agree with you.

I think the "market" you are referring to is skewed by large operators like EK, it is just look at the number of airframes delivered in that configuration, not the number of airlines that have made that choice.
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waly777
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:44 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 24):
Now the question is: Will the authorities accept that?? or, will they say that the plane is cat F and that´s it??? is a plane allowed to be in two different categories??

i see here a few issues, specially the certification of this folding wings, on a fighter is not an issue, but on a comercial plane... that´s a much more tricky issue.

There's no valid reason for the authorities to not accept it, as it has been in use for decades. However it is a first for a commercial aircraft I think.
Actually, it is the opposite because with fighter jets, the folded wings include movable parts like the ailerons etc and fighter jet wings go through far more strenuous activity than commercial aircraft will go through. The folded part of the wing on the B777X is essentially the raked wingtips with no moving parts involved.

Quoting worldrider (Reply 25):
im defenitely not going to hold my breath on this new 777.

Fortunately the CEOs of LH, BA, EK, QR, PR and a few others disagree with you and can't wait for it's launch.
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:15 am

The 9 will most certainly make life even harder for the VLAs, with the global economy changing cycles very fast and often sitting with VLAs when the market turns down will hurt a lot more than if sitting with 777-9s, they will have very good economy between 350 and 390 seats. I think B has another winner here as the 77W has been now for many years. It is needed too as the 748i was a dud.
 
queb
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:10 pm

Quoting waly777 (Reply 21):
That is the point of the folding wingtips. On the runway the B777X becomes category F with a 71.1m wingspan. On the taxiways and at the gates, it becomes a category E aircraft due to the folding wingtips making the wingspan 64.8m (same as the B777-300ER/200LR. Hence the category E conditions will apply to the B777X everywhere but the runway.

What happens if the folding wingtips system is not working? The aircraft need to be certified to be able to take off with one engine inoperative and folded wing, or both etc.. The FAA will not accept it.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:14 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 29):
What happens if the folding wingtips system is not working?

The design appears to be "fail safe" in that the default failure state of the wing is with wingtips down and locked. So if there is a failure, it would prevent the wingtips from being raised post-landing. At which point you just fix them.



Quoting queb (Reply 29):
The aircraft need to be certified to be able to take off with one engine inoperative and folded wing, or both etc.. The FAA will not accept it.

Once in flight, the wing-tips won't be able to be raised, so it's a moot point.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:23 pm

Quoting waly777 (Reply 27):
Quoting worldrider (Reply 25):
im defenitely not going to hold my breath on this new 777.

Fortunately the CEOs of LH, BA, EK, QR, PR and a few others disagree with you and can't wait for it's launch.

As far as the 777-9 is concerned, yes. EK and BA have all but ordered it, and other airlines that need proper 744 replacements or have a substantial 77W fleet will certainly take a good hard look, like EY and even CX (although I can't see them ordering as many 779's as they have 77W's, due to the A35J). Can't see LH ordering the 777X, A350's are a certain bet there.

But I still can't see a business case for the 777-8. The A350-1000 can do everything the 777-8 can but is lighter and less expensive. The article suggests commonality with the 777-9 as an advantage but how about the A350-1000's commonality with the -900? Launching the 777-8 makes as much sense as relaunching the A340-600 to combat the 77W's success IMO  I think the proposed EIS of 2021 is just an insurance to cancel the -8 without too much cost, when Boeing realises it has been too optimistic with the chances of success for the -8.

There is something in the article I don't really understand: "the roll-out of the 777-9X is scheduled to take place in the fourth quarter of 2017, followed by a 9-month flight test programme which ends in late third-quarter 2018 and an entry into service (EIS) in mid-2019".
Why EIS mid-2019 if the flight testing is finished Q3 2018???
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queb
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:24 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
Once in flight, the wing-tips won't be able to be raised, so it's a moot point.

"fail safe" like the lithium batteries ?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:25 pm

Ghad, that OP article grabs every rumor there is and combines them without a real order. My 4th grade essay teacher would have been appalled!

Here is what we know:
1. Interior stretch. That isn't too tough. While new vendors are required, that has been under discussion for 5 years now! With new aluminum (some form of GLARE?) this is quite possible.
2. Lighter wing. While the 777 is a great plane, its wing has been known to be overweight from day #1 and now there are new aluminum.
3. More fuel efficient engines, this means less fuel weight
4. More wingspan which means more wing area, which further helps fuel efficiency and probably a wing reprofile and wing technology has progressed tremendously in the last decade. The fastest progress I'm aware of since that burst in 1936-1945. Or since Fokker stole Junkers 'thick wing' idea.  

All of the above means less engine is required. I see the

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
With the statements that Boeing realizes that 10-abreast isn't the most comfortable for the 777 family, and planning on thinner interior walls to make that configuration more feasible, I have to wonder what kind of penalty the plane would take to widen the fuselage a few inches. Is it all that much?

Its a few hundred million in engineering costs plus some more for certification. This will help widen the isles which improves 'perceived room.'

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 2):
The engineering cost would be prohibitive.

Why? I'm in the industry and it doesn't seem that excessive. The FAA has a plan for certification of such changes. Now the certification guidelines were intended for freighter conversions, but there is no reason Boeing couldn't adapt the plane. This is a 777NG. The 737NG received a new wing, new body length, and many other changes. The 777 isn't that much ore.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 24):
is a plane allowed to be in two different categories??

It is two different categories as the wingspan changes. Besides:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 23):
All the widebodies I looked into have their own unique guidlines for airport compatiblity.

   It will just be new proceedures.

Quoting queb (Reply 29):
What happens if the folding wingtips system is not working?

There will have to be a manual way to unfold the wingtip and lock it in place. Boeing has a division that does Navy planes, they know the tricks.




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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:44 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 32):
"fail safe" like the lithium batteries ?

If we're going to drag this up in every thread, I'll have to start finding issues with other planes so we can well and properly pollute the thread and drive it into the ground.

But considering neither hull was lost, yes, the design appears to have indeed safely failed.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:49 pm

If the Boeing 777x is going with a Boeing 787-like wing will the cruise Mach be bumped up from .84 to .85? I've read a lot of range figures but haven't seen a cruise Mach.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:52 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 29):
What happens if the folding wingtips system is not working? The aircraft need to be certified to be able to take off with one engine inoperative and folded wing, or both etc.. The FAA will not accept it.

Its been noted that they would certify the 777X wings in the folded and unfolded position for flight, therefore in the event the wingtips fail to unfold or unfold in flight, it can continue flying. For the failure inflight it would require some aileron and spoiler deflection to compensate for the lift imbalance.
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AngMoh
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:04 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 31):
There is something in the article I don't really understand: "the roll-out of the 777-9X is scheduled to take place in the fourth quarter of 2017, followed by a 9-month flight test programme which ends in late third-quarter 2018 and an entry into service (EIS) in mid-2019".
Why EIS mid-2019 if the flight testing is finished Q3 2018???
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
Why? I'm in the industry and it doesn't seem that excessive. The FAA has a plan for certification of such changes. Now the certification guidelines were intended for freighter conversions, but there is no reason Boeing couldn't adapt the plane. This is a 777NG. The 737NG received a new wing, new body length, and many other changes. The 777 isn't that much ore.

I think 2019 is a no-go for EIS. There are just too many changes. The 777X has the same problem as the A350 MK1: a lot of changes but a few critical areas missed out to be a real winner. For me there are just too many changes to call it an upgrade:
* New engines: this a no-brainer
* New wing: expensive but might be needed
* Folding wingtips: sorry but here we go in overboard. To say that this is a simple only works on powerpoint. Maybe engineering it is simple but there is certification, convincing airlines that this is not going to cause problems, convincing airports it is a good idea and in general creating major changes to operational procedures.
* Thinner wall: maybe ok if it was not for the next 2 points
* New alloys for hull: new alloys = new certification
* Larger windows: larger windows = new hull design and new certification
* and probably to top it off a completely new electrical system (not announced, but considering all other technology transferred from the 787 highly likely)
To me it is just a brand new plane. Only reason to call it a 777 is to grandfather as many certification requirements as possible. And we all know what happened last time Boeing announced they would develop a brand new plane is 4 years....

Another reason why I think there are too many changes: the same resources are required to develop the 737 MAX in about the same timeframe. If if there is a crunch, I would definitely give the 737 priority.
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:10 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 17):
Seems they are willing to do that in exchange for fare levels that have not kept pace with rate of inflation. Has a $600 fare 20 years ago risen to $1000 in 2013, I don't think so.
I remember paying about $2000 from YYZ-AKL in the 1990's . It is still around $2000.

That is partially due to the increase in efficiency in modern airplanes. Newer planes are able to move the same (or more) amount of passengers/cargo (revenue) with less resources (Fuel, flight crew)

Quoting queb (Reply 29):
What happens if the folding wingtips system is not working? The aircraft need to be certified to be able to take off with one engine inoperative and folded wing, or both etc.. The FAA will not accept it.

If I read it correctly, the 77X will be designed to fly with even if one of the folding wing tips breaks off during flight with minimal effort. Didn't a REVENUE 757 fly with one of the wing tips missing due to maintenance or something?
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:17 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 37):
Larger windows: larger windows = new hull design and new certification

This is a low priority for the 77X, may or may not happen. My bet is it will not happen, same goes for lower attitude.

If 77X adopts the 787 cockpit, what kind of certification change will be needed? And would that ruin the cross commonality with the current 777 pilots?
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:25 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 29):
What happens if the folding wingtips system is not working? The aircraft need to be certified to be able to take off with one engine inoperative and folded wing, or both etc..

The airplane will be so certified. The folding wingtip is a very small portion of the wing area. Having one or both tips folded (or even missing) will have an impact on fuel burn, but won't affect the aircraft's ability to take off or cruise.

You all are overthinking this.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:27 pm

Quoting waly777 (Reply 27):

Fortunately the CEOs of LH, BA, EK, QR, PR and a few others disagree with you and can't wait for it's launch.

Glad that for once, PR is among the first in selecting a new design for its use. Hopefully, it will serve them well in the years ahead.....

http://www.aviationweek.com/media/im...tion/Miscellaneous/777X_Boeing.jpg

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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:47 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 37):
* New alloys for hull: new alloys = new certification
* Larger windows: larger windows = new hull design and new certification

The original 777 design already featured an Al-Li fuselage. It was consequently dropped, but it shouldn't cause much complications if Boeing decided to use it for the 777X. And bigger windows will be just be an added bonus as a result.

Quoting flyinghippo (Reply 39):
If 77X adopts the 787 cockpit, what kind of certification change will be needed? And would that ruin the cross commonality with the current 777 pilots?

IIRC, the 767-400 was also modified to have a 777 style cockpit. Not sure if pmCO and DL have separate pilot pools for the 767-400.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 41):

I'm glad the typical 777 screwdriver tailcone is still there! With the vertical stabilizer of the 787 it really looks cool  
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:07 pm

Quoting flyinghippo (Reply 39):
If 77X adopts the 787 cockpit, what kind of certification change will be needed? And would that ruin the cross commonality with the current 777 pilots?

Very minimal, and no. The 777 and 787 already share a common type rating.
 
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:07 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 42):
I'm glad the typical 777 screwdriver tailcone is still there!

As they say..."If it ain't broke, why fix it"? Maybe Boeing doesn't see anything in the tail that would "screw" them in the end   .

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 42):
With the vertical stabilizer of the 787 it really looks cool

Yeah...it would've been disproportional if they'd adopted the original shark fin too    .

[Edited 2013-03-29 09:11:26]
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:33 pm

Sometimes Daniel Tsang does really nice write-ups, this is not one of those me thinks. On the positive side he has gathered a lot of the latest facts (=stuff said officially by Boeing or GE) and rumors (from other journalists mostly) and mixed that with his own sources (not to much this time me thinks) and conclusions.

In the latter there is one that I don't understand at all, the 8100nm range for the 777-9X and -8X. The previous credible rumors came after Boeings latest customer group meeting in Seattle a couple of months ago and said they were 8500nm frames, this is also what my model says with the data at hand. How can a 777-9X which gets:

- 6 meter larger span (reduces the induced drag with 18%)

- has a larger wing area and lower MTOW (means it can start it's cruise at a higher FL, badly needed )

- has engines which consumes 10% less fuel

only have 170 nm more range then a 777-300ER has (spec range of 7930nm).

Yes the -9X takes 4t more pax, is a bit longer and has more wingarea. Those increased areas increases the parasitic drag with 7% (from 17.9 klbf to 16.8 at FL 370) but the induced drag decreases with double that (from 15.4 to 12.3 klbf) due to the increase in span (all values at mid cruise weight 284t).

A figure of 8100nm spec range simply does not make sense especially as the driving customer (EK) is asking for 8500nm+. So I am surprised how Daniel can come to this figure given the above. All indications is that the -9X will lay around 8500nm nominal (and then B has a bit of margin in the pocket) and perhaps loose some of that in the end (with the inevitable weight creep) and that the -8X will beat that a little.

[Edited 2013-03-29 09:38:31]
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Revelation
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:02 pm

Quote:

“On the 777X, things are accelerating. The configuration is looking good. The big question is affordability and the business case, making it affordable for us to build and the airlines to buy,” Boeing Commercial Airplanes (BCA) vice president (VP) of marketing Randy Tinseth said at the International Society of Transport Aircraft Trading (ISTAT) conference in mid-March.

I think this will be a key issue due to the fact that the 787 has sucked up so many resources and is so late in paying them back, and that the 777Xs will have the A350s keeping them honest on price.
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:55 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
I hadn't realized that the 8X was planned for EIS two years after the 9X.

Neither did I, but it seems quite reasonable given that it is likely the 777-9X will be the more popular (and thus higher priority) aircraft.

Quoting queb (Reply 11):
Boeing can do the 777X without exceeding 65 meters wingspan.

That defeats the purpose, as the efficiency gains, if any, won't be as much as they can get with a larger wingspan. Others have already talked about the larger wingspan (and the folding wingtip being the solution to airport handling issues that comes with an increased wingspan) so I won't elaborate further.

Quoting par13del (Reply 14):
The trade off if the walls are thinner will be an increase in interior nose, something which some folks say is already louder than the competition.

Not necessarily. As I understand it, noise insulation is not necessarily correlated to the thickness of the insulation but rather the material used. Then there's the high probability that the GE9X will be somewhat quieter than the GE90. Nevertheless, I believe that the noise issue on 777s have been blown out of proportion.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 37):
For me there are just too many changes to call it an upgrade:
* New engines: this a no-brainer
* New wing: expensive but might be needed
* Folding wingtips: sorry but here we go in overboard. To say that this is a simple only works on powerpoint. Maybe engineering it is simple but there is certification, convincing airlines that this is not going to cause problems, convincing airports it is a good idea and in general creating major changes to operational procedures.
* Thinner wall: maybe ok if it was not for the next 2 points
* New alloys for hull: new alloys = new certification
* Larger windows: larger windows = new hull design and new certification
* and probably to top it off a completely new electrical system (not announced, but considering all other technology transferred from the 787 highly likely)

I believe you have overstated the extent of the update.

New engines, new wings and thinner walls are almost dead set certainties, and I believe folding wingtips would be highly likely. I don't believe it is "going overboard" as you put it, as a system had already been designed for the original 777. The folding wingtips for the 777X will be less complex than the one designed for the original 777, as the 777X folding wingtips will not include any control surfaces.

New alloys for fuselage construction have been rumoured, but I do not believe it is confirmed, and larger windows is highly unlikely.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:24 pm

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 13):

It's funny, the difference in complexity between stretching a plane and widening it.

Not really; to stretch it only involves adding more identical sections; widening it involves completely redesigning the sections, and building new tooling for them.
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ODwyerPW
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RE: Boeing 777x To Start Mini Jumbo War

Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:44 pm



Quoting queb (Reply 32):
"fail safe" like the lithium batteries ?

Now you're just being argumentative.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 37):
And we all know what happened last time Boeing announced they would develop a brand new plane is 4 years....


Let me check my math. Mid 2019 - Mid 2013 = 6 years. I don't get 4 years. Does anyone else get 4 years?



[Edited 2013-03-29 13:53:24]
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