MaverickM11
Topic Author
Posts: 15323
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Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:50 pm

"The demonstration comes as Transport Workers Union Local 555 and the carrier are in the midst of contract talks. The union is protesting Southwest proposals to outsource some jobs, among other complaints. The union says the changes “would negatively impact customer service and impose unnecessary concessions” on its members."

"The TWU members were also picketing at Southwest-served airports in Buffalo, N.Y., Baltimore, Chicago, Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood and Tampa, Fla., Houston, Kansas City, Mo., Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Nashville, Oakland, Phoenix, Portland, Ore., and Seattle.
"

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...-picket-at-dallas-love-field.html/

This sign says it all:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/files/2013/03/NB_28LOVEPROTEST01CP_30371206-1024x768.jpg
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:56 pm

The days of smooth sailing at WN are over. Their costs are too high and their competitors are all thru BK with lower costs. More and more it looks like WN simply wanted to get rid of FL not to gain access to ATL but to get rid of a low fare competitor.
 
slider
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:58 pm

No, bags fly free because your company couldn't charge for them at some point and are now way past the point of no return on backtracking on it.

Too bad too, because that ancillary revenue might be useful in contract negotiations.
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 521
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:17 pm

Interesting how what was once unimaginable becomes reality. I think we all agree that the 'LC' part of LCC is no longer applicable. They grew into every medium size city in the USA ten years ago and have to expand their system base to include large traditional markets (LGA,EWR,BOS) and small ones like BKG,ICT and GSP. There is no way they can staff > 10 daily stations with internal staff and make money. However, I see where TWU is coming from with their concerns...today it is BKG....tomorrow is could be BWI.

Welcome to the Big Boys WN....the "labor peace at any price" bill is coming due.

[Edited 2013-03-29 08:25:02]
 
slider
Posts: 6812
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:27 pm

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 3):
Welcome to the Big Boys WN.

I think you, me, and scores of others here on this site all recognize that WN is hardly this LCC upstart anymore but a true mature legacy carrier with the same legacy problems. I just wish the media would stop with the teflon darling treatment--it's pathetic, really.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 1):
The days of smooth sailing at WN are over. Their costs are too high and their competitors are all thru BK with lower costs. More and more it looks like WN simply wanted to get rid of FL not to gain access to ATL but to get rid of a low fare competitor.

Isn't that what most acquisitions are about?

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
No, bags fly free because your company couldn't charge for them at some point and are now way past the point of no return on backtracking on it.

Too bad too, because that ancillary revenue might be useful in contract negotiations.

You would be shocked how many employees would support bag fees. It would definitely help them during contract negotiations with the extra revenue. Of course at some point the extra revenue doesn't show up. Right now other airlines immediately match/follow WN's fare adjustments. UA tried to go along last year, WN didn't follow, and all backed out. WN still has significant pricing influence in this country and until that goes away, so does the requirements to increase fees.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:34 pm

So basically you're saying that WN is being screwed because other airlines mismanaged themselves into ch11 and could shed all their overhead.
This is why I hate Ch11...if you're bankrupt, then go away and make room for people who can do it right!
 
MaverickM11
Topic Author
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:05 pm

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):
So basically you're saying that WN is being screwed because other airlines mismanaged themselves into ch11 and could shed all their overhead.

True, but all those carriers existed long before deregulation, and grew their labor costs and rules to support a regulation environment. When the revenue side pancaked one day to the next, there was not much choice.

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
Too bad too, because that ancillary revenue might be useful in contract negotiations.

On the other hand they'd probably need a lot fewer bag handlers if they instituted bag fees. Could cut both ways...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Triple7Lr
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:08 pm

Well hopefully they can work things out before it gets out of hand. WN is officially a legacy carrier. It's only a matter of time before they have bag fees, it's a huge revenue source that they're missing out on. I think they're afraid they'll lose a lot of customers. Who would you choose if all prices were equal WN, DL, UA, B6, or the new AA? The reality is without a price advantage or a perceived price advantage WN loses.
 
luvfa
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:10 pm

555 represents our Ramp, Provisioning and Ground Ops. Some bones of contentions in this contract negotiations are:

Outsourcing, they can outsource any stations opened post 2009 with less than, (I believe) 8 flights. The comnpany is trying to be able to outsource any station, 555 is trying to prevent that!

Ramp is trying to get additional help loading the 800. As as of now, management want s the same number of loaders on all AC whether a 700 or an 800, with the same turn times!

My Union, 556, supports 555 in their pursuit of a fair contract!
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:12 pm

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):
So basically you're saying that WN is being screwed because other airlines mismanaged themselves into ch11 and could shed all their overhead.
This is why I hate Ch11...if you're bankrupt, then go away and make room for people who can do it right!

Presumably because politicians did not want the disruption of large shuttered airlines. However, Eastern, Braniff, and Pan Am's shutdowns showed that the country can weather a shutdown and adjust just fine.

It's well-known that WN will need to deal with its costs sooner or later. I think within the next two to three years. Their major profit-strategy raison d'etre is being *lower-cost* than legacy competitors. And that means reducing the one biggest cost item over which they have control, and it's no longer oil. Either they get back to lower costs, or their specific major distinguishing factor goes away.

It was also much-discussed here that WN's business passengers had wanted Atlanta. The airline no doubt wanted the profits of serving major business centers from ATL. (Getting rid of a much smaller lower-cost competitor was probably gravy.) Which, to no one's great surprise, they are doing. I just wonder how completely BWI and MDW are going to be able to replace ATL's connecting-hub traffic flows. As long as the medium-size FL stations that are losing ATL get BWI and MDW, they should be fine for Florida, but the directional matches for other station-pairs may not all be ideal.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
MSPNWA
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:57 pm

What I would tell the WN employees is that as long as failure is rewarded in this country (Chap. 11), successful businesses will be at a disadvantage at some point. That point is now. Why management would "compromise our tradition" is because it may keep WN profitable. It's ugly. It's sad to see success have to pay for failure, but it is what it is. Agree on a deal that both sides have to concede on.
 
Beechtobus
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:07 pm

Southwest definitely painted themselves into a corner with their widespread "Bags Fly Free" marketing campaign. Almost reminds me of CO's commercials in the mid 2000's touting free meals at meal times, pillows, and blankets after the rest of the legacies had stopped providing these extras as part of the service. This lasted, what, a year if that. Its hard to believe that Southwest didn't take a page out of this book of what not to do when marketing, especially while their revenue stream was already deteriorating with no longer hugely advantageous fuel hedges, labor costs were way out of line from their peers, and increased costs with seeking out service to expensive, delay prone airports that they once avoided.

Now they have the hard choice of deciding between asking their labor groups for concessions creating decreased morale and increased labor strife or alienating a very loyal passenger base with baggage fees that they were once very publicly against.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):

"So basically you're saying that WN is being screwed because other airlines mismanaged themselves into ch11 and could shed all their overhead.
This is why I hate Ch11...if you're bankrupt, then go away and make room for people who can do it right!"

We actually agree on something! Do keep in mind though that the concessions that were imposed on these other legacies labor groups and relief from creditors through Ch 11 that gave the protected airline an advantage is only part of the revenue stream equation. Southwest does have a huge amount of ancillary revenue opportunities that they haven't tapped that almost all other airlines have tapped and isn't necessarily related to bk protection. They now have the hard task of if and how they will approach tapping this revenue stream.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 2006
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 10):
However, Eastern, Braniff, and Pan Am's shutdowns showed that the country can weather a shutdown and adjust just fine.


The degree of concentration in the U.S. domestic airline industry today is a lot higher than in the time of the failures of Pan Am and Braniff.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
True, but all those carriers existed long before deregulation, and grew their labor costs and rules to support a regulation environment. When the revenue side pancaked one day to the next, there was not much choice.

I'm confused by the 'one day to the next' reference. AA had >30 years from the time of deregulation to manage labor costs and productivity; DL, NW, and UA, all > 25 years before their filings for Ch 11. It's not as if adjustment needed to be quick.
 
lucky777
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Ramp is trying to get additional help loading the 800. As as of now, management want s the same number of loaders on all AC whether a 700 or an 800, with the same turn times!

And how many men are alloted to work '700's?
 
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par13del
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:27 pm

I do not think the bags fly free has any bearing, the other airlines who are charging for bags are not using that revenue to pay employees, if that were the case / intention the conditions implemented and benefits lost in Chpt.11 would not be as harsh. If WN were to start charging for bags and use those funds to pay staff, their situation would be no different than it is now, their labour cost would still be higher than their competitiors and one of the items that differentiate them from their competitors would be lost. At present WN has higher productivity from its staff than their competitors, this is what is allowing them to continue to be profitable in the face of higher labour cost and airlines abusing the Chpt.11 process.

The jury of public opinion is still out on whether they are benefitting substantially from their bags fly free campaign.
 
luvfa
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:31 pm

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 14):
And how many men are alloted to work '700's?

I want to say 2, but don't quote me, as I don't work the ramp.
 
asteriskceo
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:40 pm

I'd say most of WN's customers aren't even aware that bags fly free.
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:47 pm

Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Ramp is trying to get additional help loading the 800. As as of now, management want s the same number of loaders on all AC whether a 700 or an 800, with the same turn times!

Serious? You can't dump a larger plane in the mix and expect it to flow like it's not any different. That's what happens when upper management has lost touch with the realities of the task at hand. Though I don't blame them for trying to keep their costs inline ( even though that ships left port )
 
airbazar
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:02 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 5):
WN still has significant pricing influence in this country and until that goes away, so does the requirements to increase fees

  
They control the pricing in the markets that they fly to, and they are usually not the cheapest option either. That's why they can afford "bags fly free". It's priced into the air fare and everyone is paying for it, even those who don't carry a bag.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
True, but all those carriers existed long before deregulation, and grew their labor costs and rules to support a regulation environment. When the revenue side pancaked one day to the next, there was not much choice.

WN also existed before deregulation and they didn't need BK to remain competitive after deregulation. Put me in with those who dislike Ch. 11.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:21 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 19):
WN also existed before deregulation and they didn't need BK to remain competitive after deregulation. Put me in with those who dislike Ch. 11.

They were only an intrastate carrier until after deregulation, so it never applied to them in any case until they started flying to MSY, after deregulation.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 13):
I'm confused by the 'one day to the next' reference. AA had >30 years from the time of deregulation to manage labor costs and productivity; DL, NW, and UA, all > 25 years before their filings for Ch 11. It's not as if adjustment needed to be quick.

The revenue disappeared from one day to the next. You've seen how hard it is to cut costs with the same speed; all those carriers have been trying for years to reign in costs, and vendors and labor have no short/medium interest in participating in those cuts. Now you can watch live as WN does the same thing--they need cost cuts yesterday, and it's going to be a brutal long time just to keep them them steady.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:29 pm

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 14):
And how many men are alloted to work '700's?

At the two stations I've work at, 2 agents are staffed at a gate. Neighboring gates are supposed to assist each other making up to 4 agents. However with the way flights are scheduled now, flights file in in banks so it's common to see all gates busy working their own flights leaving no one to assist. Furthermore, not every gate is staffed daily yet flights will still be scheduled at them running the staff even more thin as agents need to be taken from other positions to work those flights.

Quoting par13del (Reply 15):
At present WN has higher productivity from its staff than their competitors

Ha, the union has been told otherwise.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:36 pm

I wish there was a public list of grievances. What I've read is so general, it doesn't illustrate if there is a real issue or not.

What does "some jobs" mean with regard to outsourcing? A hundred? A thousand?

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 1):
The days of smooth sailing at WN are over. Their costs are too high

It will be a bit rough, but they'll manage. But WN's costs aren't bad. I had to agree with the 'bags will have fees' crowd, but WN must work on revenue:

Their 2Q2012 CASM (had link):
http://southwest.investorroom.com/20...nes-Reports-Second-Quarter-Results

12.51 cents (including fuel), 7.76 cents without fuel.

For the year, with longer stage lengths, B6 has a 11.65 total CASM and 7.17 without fuel. I'd say about a wash...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/jet...nces-2012-annual-profit-2013-01-29

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
No, bags fly free because your company couldn't charge for them at some point and are now way past the point of no return on backtracking on it.

I rarely fly on airlines that don't have free bags. With small kids, the fees quickly make B6 and WN a bargain.

WN could have bag fees... But they have grabbed most of the customers who want to avoid them.

Judging from the 2010 data, WN's costs are not out of line:
http://www.oliverwyman.com/media/OW_...2011_Airline_Economic_Analysis.pdf

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 3):
There is no way they can staff > 10 daily stations with internal staff and make money. However, I see where TWU is coming from with their concerns...today it is BKG....tomorrow is could be BWI.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
UALWN
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 13):
I'm confused by the 'one day to the next' reference. AA had >30 years from the time of deregulation to manage labor costs and productivity; DL, NW, and UA, all > 25 years before their filings for Ch 11. It's not as if adjustment needed to be quick.

Not only that, but some of them (CO, US) needed not one but two trips to Ch. 11 to, allegedly, solve those issues stemming from the '70s...
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/380
 
ouboy79
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:41 pm

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 17):
I'd say most of WN's customers aren't even aware that bags fly free.

You would be surprised how many do.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 19):
They control the pricing in the markets that they fly to, and they are usually not the cheapest option either. That's why they can afford "bags fly free". It's priced into the air fare and everyone is paying for it, even those who don't carry a bag.

I'm glad someone else finally gets it.   The comments above continue to show how naive a lot of people are when it comes to air fare pricing in this country. Just look back at the history of fare hikes over the last couple of years. Those initiated by WN stuck. Those initiated by others, that WN refused to match, got reversed in under two weeks. If WN needs/wants the additional revenue, they'll just raise fares another $10 per segment and everyone will fall in line and do the same.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 19):
WN also existed before deregulation and they didn't need BK to remain competitive after deregulation. Put me in with those who dislike Ch. 11.

Chapter 11 has its tools, but at some point you need to let it go. Double dipping in BK or staying in for a very long time is just counter competitive. Nearly every major airline during the post-dereg era of aviation has failed. The exceptions? Southwest, Alaska, and JetBlue. Everyone else has gone through bankruptcy at one time or another...sometimes multiple times.
 
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WesternDC6B
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:28 pm

Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Who would you choose if all prices were equal WN, DL, UA, B6, or the new AA? The reality is without a price advantage or a perceived price advantage WN loses.

Not in my book. WN has full-sized airplanes, courteous cabin crew, decent to excellent ground agents. For the same price, why would I want to fly on Delta/Pinacle* Airlines' old, cramped, filthy planes or put up with UA's rude employees? I have not flown AA enough to make a judgement and B6 doesn't come here (BHM).

* We call them Pinochle Airlines at the office because it is always a gamble if they will be on time, or delayed.
Be kind to animals - Take a grizzly to lunch today.
 
wwtraveler99
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:38 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
Too bad too, because that ancillary revenue might be useful in contract negotiations.
Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Outsourcing, they can outsource any stations opened post 2009 with less than, (I believe) 8 flights.

Actually its fewer than 12 flights

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 12):
Southwest definitely painted themselves into a corner with their widespread "Bags Fly Free" marketing campaign.

What corner? See below concerning profits.

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 12):
labor costs were way out of line from their peers,

How is that the case? According to Wall Street Southwest will make $720,000,000 this year, A RECORD profit. Next year the are projected at $874,000,000. Even with the so called "high" labor costs the still are on pace to make record profits 2 years in a row.Here is current airline unit labor cost adjusted for stage legnth. Shown in CASM.

UA - 6.6
AA - 6.0
DL - 5.0
AS - 4.3
US - 4.1
WN - 3.8 .. record profits to come
B6 - 3.3 ... this is the only airline i would compare to WN
F9 - 2.8
VX - 2.3 and losing money
NK - 2.1 and they charge for everything under the sun

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Now you can watch live as WN does the same thing--they need cost cuts yesterday, and it's going to be a brutal long time just to keep them them steady.

What costs do they need to cut. $720,000,000 isnt enough profit? Southwest should not do what other carriers have done to there employees. That is to make money off the backs of the hard working employees on the ground and in the air.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
What does "some jobs" mean with regard to outsourcing? A hundred? A thousand?

Some jobs mean about 20% of the work to be contracted out to a 3rd party.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
12.51 cents (including fuel), 7.76 cents without fuel.

For the year, with longer stage lengths, B6 has a 11.65 total CASM and 7.17 without fuel. I'd say about a wash...

I agree its a wash...almost. Again I think B6 is the only carrier you can compare to WN.


WW
 
mcdu
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:04 pm

Do you know the carriers that received ATSB money? Here is hint, it wasn't the two carriers that lost aircraft on 9-11.
In fact of these carriers receiving loans all the ATSB money was repaid. Isn't that what it was intended to do? The ATSB did not give everyone that asked money, as you can also see below. There were some severe politics involved in the process but it was money that was repaid.

Finally of all the carriers that it probably kept from disappearing US and AmWest are the only two that survived to prosper. All the others have had difficulty or are out of business. So the money was repaid and the carriers that couldn't survive died.

Here is an interesting tidbit ATA died because of the WN shell game that the kind folks from LUV perpetuated. Any bad things that happen at WN have been earned over the years with shady dealings.

From Wiki:

Between 2001 and 2003, the ATSB approved applications for loan guarantees from seven carriers: America West Airlines, US Airways, American Trans Air, Aloha Airlines, Frontier Airlines, Evergreen International Airlines, and World Airways. These carriers accepted loan guarantees worth $1.179 billion.
The ATSB denied applications from nine carriers: Ozark Airlines dba Great Plains Airlines, MEDjet International, Corporate Airlines, Gemini Air Cargo, Frontier Flying Service, Spirit Airlines, National Airlines, and both initial and revised applications from United Airlines and Vanguard Airlines.
[edit]

[Edited 2013-03-30 03:42:12 by SA7700]
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 1680
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:08 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 5):
Isn't that what most acquisitions are about?

FL wasnt not excess capacity unlike DL/NW. FL was a genuine LCC, NW wasnt. Getting rid of FL capacity had FL not been a LCC isnt enough to raise fares across the industry. Also AA/US isnt about reducing capacity in the way that DL/NW was or even UA/CO

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):
So basically you're saying that WN is being screwed because other airlines mismanaged themselves into ch11 and could shed all their overhead.

Same happened to AA until they BK

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 17):
I'd say most of WN's customers aren't even aware that bags fly free.

I dont think that is true. Youd have to be blind to not know
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
I rarely fly on airlines that don't have free bags. With small kids, the fees quickly make B6 and WN a bargain.

Dude, 'The Delta Skymiles Card from American Express' would give you free bags for you and up to 8 others. You, your kids, your friends, your friend's kids.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
luvfa
Posts: 333
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:01 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 30):
Here is an interesting tidbit ATA died because of the WN shell game that the kind folks from LUV perpetuated. Any bad things that happen at WN have been earned over the years with shady dealings.

That wasn't what killed ATA, it was the loss of their military charter(s).
 
mcdu
Posts: 902
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:43 pm

Quoting luvfa (Reply 34):
That wasn't what killed ATA, it was the loss of their military charter(s).

After LUV pillaged ATA there wasn't anything left but the charters. Had the wonderful folks from WN not have done their evil deed to ATA the military loss wouldn't have caused the collapse. But this is WN we are talking about so they are just the poor little airline that is just trying to make everyone LUV them. Most of the FL people I talk to don't seem to be feeling the LUV either....

WN is only reaping what it has sewn.
 
jayunited
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:07 pm

Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Ramp is trying to get additional help loading the 800. As as of now, management want s the same number of loaders on all AC whether a 700 or an 800, with the same turn times!

Does the 800 in WN fleet have the Tel Air cargo loading system? I ask because here at UA the 737-800 do not have that system the 737-900 have the system. However in the 800 you need at least 2 people in each pit in order to load it because do to the length of the aircraft one person can't load a pit by themselves so I can understand WN ramp employees concerns.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 11):
What I would tell the WN employees is that as long as failure is rewarded in this country (Chap. 11), successful businesses will be at a disadvantage at some point. That point is now. Why management would "compromise our tradition" is because it may keep WN profitable. It's ugly. It's sad to see success have to pay for failure, but it is what it is. Agree on a deal that both sides have to concede on.

I don't agree with this statement. The other legacies are not responsible for where WN is at today WN management is. While the other legacies were in bankruptcy forcing huge pay cuts and reducing employee benefits as well as outsourcing work WN employees were given pay raises and better benefits that they rightfully deserved. While other airlines were paying close to full price for 50-70% of their jet fuel needs WN had unbelievable fuel hedges which for the most part protected a large portion of their operation against the volatility in the oil market. WN has been profitable for the past 40 years and their policies and hedges protected them especially in the last decade (2000-2010) in fact in the last decade while the big legacies were cutting tons of flights WN was adding flights all over the U.S..

The reality that WN operated in during the past decade and to be specific (2006-2010) was not the reality that the legacies operated in. How many years ago did jet fuel cost become the number one cost at the legacies surpassing employee wages? When did fuel cost become WN number one cost? I can almost guarantee you at WN their fuel cost did not exceed their employee cost until years after the legacies were already dealing with it. Once the price of oil sky rocketed WN had an advantage but everyone knew that advantage would not last because never again would a hedge fund company allow an airline to hedge fuel at the prices WN negotiated.

My point is WN has benefited from the mismanagement, missteps and miss opportunities the the legacies experienced. From especially 2006-2011 WN took complete advantage of every misstep the legacies made and no one was complaining because huge profits continued to roll in and they constantly met or exceeded Wall Street analyst expectation. So why now are the legacies at fault? With the exception of American Airlines a lot of employees at the other legacies are finally seeing their wages increase, they have better benefits, they are getting profit sharing checks, SOME of the work that was outsourced during the last decade is finally coming back and being performed in house.

The turbulence that WN management and employees are experience today is not the fault of the legacies it is the reality of the market that WN now operates in a reality where almost every decision is made is somehow influenced by the price of oil.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:20 am

Great that DL employees get to enjoy profit sharing, just like WN employees have for nearly every year since 1973 (except for a couple years here and there).

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 31):
FL wasnt not excess capacity unlike DL/NW. FL was a genuine LCC, NW wasnt. Getting rid of FL capacity had FL not been a LCC isnt enough to raise fares across the industry. Also AA/US isnt about reducing capacity in the way that DL/NW was or even UA/CO

Let me make my thoughts a bit clearer. I see the FL acquisition as a way to clean out competition and prevent excess capacity. FL was pretty well saturated east of the Mississippi. They only had one way to grow in the US and that would have started to impact WN even more. IMO, this was a preemptive move to avoid having to deal with FL expanding a lot in the central and western US.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 33):
Dude, 'The Delta Skymiles Card from American Express' would give you free bags for you and up to 8 others. You, your kids, your friends, your friend's kids.

Dude (is it just me, or is that kinda rude? anyway), not everyone wants to sign up for a credit card. I HATE credit cards. I'm a 100% cash guy (even though I have a credit card for those situations when its required) and respect those that refuse to apply to every single credit card opportunity out there.

[Edited 2013-03-30 03:51:20 by SA7700]
 
SJUSXM
Posts: 261
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:28 am

Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Ramp is trying to get additional help loading the 800. As as of now, management want s the same number of loaders on all AC whether a 700 or an 800, with the same turn times!

The question is though, how many rampers are working a -700 now? I really don't know the answer, but hypothetically, say it's 6. 6 May be grossly too many for a -700. Hypothetically, if UA/AA/DL can load a -800 with six people, I would think WN would say they should be able to do the same thing. Thus the ramp wouldn't need extra people, they already would have TOO MANY people for a smaller plane, but the union would never say that. Again, I don't know what the situation actually is in terms of how many people work now, but I think this needs perspective before we say that management is just being unrealistic.
AT7, ER3, ER4, ER5, CR7, E70, E75, F100, M82, M83, 722, 732, 738, 752, 762, 763, AB6, 320, 321, 772, 77W
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:38 am

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 41):
The question is though, how many rampers are working a -700 now? I really don't know the answer, but hypothetically, say it's 6. 6 May be grossly too many for a -700. Hypothetically, if UA/AA/DL can load a -800 with six people, I would think WN would say they should be able to do the same thing. Thus the ramp wouldn't need extra people, they already would have TOO MANY people for a smaller plane, but the union would never say that. Again, I don't know what the situation actually is in terms of how many people work now, but I think this needs perspective before we say that management is just being unrealistic.

As I stated above, it's between 2-4 agents working turnarounds on all types.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 21):
At the two stations I've work at, 2 agents are staffed at a gate. Neighboring gates are supposed to assist each other making up to 4 agents. However with the way flights are scheduled now, flights file in in banks so it's common to see all gates busy working their own flights leaving no one to assist. Furthermore, not every gate is staffed daily yet flights will still be scheduled at them running the staff even more thin as agents need to be taken from other positions to work those flights.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Beechtobus
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:02 am

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 27):

"What corner? See below concerning profits."

Did I ever mention anything about profits? I was merely saying that they essentially locked themselves out of charging for baggage as a revenue stream with their aggressive bags fly free campaign should they decide that that's best.

"How is that the case? According to Wall Street Southwest will make $720,000,000 this year, A RECORD profit. Next year the are projected at $874,000,000. Even with the so called "high" labor costs the still are on pace to make record profits 2 years in a row.Here is current airline unit labor cost adjusted for stage legnth. Shown in CASM."

What?!?! I'm confused, are these numbers labor cost or CASM? 2 entirely different things. CASM numbers on their own tell us nothing at all about labor costs as labor is a fraction of an airline's overall costs. WN can have sky high labor costs and keep costs low elsewhere bringing down overall CASM. If these are labor cost per available seat mile numbers, id like to see where you got these numbers.

"What costs do they need to cut. $720,000,000 isnt enough profit? Southwest should not do what other carriers have done to there employees. That is to make money off the backs of the hard working employees on the ground and in the air."

OK, great numbers. Why are they pushing for these concessions ( less sick days, outsourcing) then. I sense a bit more to this story.
 
nwadeicer
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:23 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 33):
Dude, 'The Delta Skymiles Card from American Express' would give you free bags for you and up to 8 others. You, your kids, your friends, your friend's kids.

Dude (is it just me, or is that kinda rude? anyway), not everyone wants to sign up for a credit card. I HATE credit cards. I'm a 100% cash guy (even though I have a credit card for those situations when its required) and respect those that refuse to apply to every single credit card opportunity out there.


I actually giggled at the dude comment! Senior citizens trying to be "hip"  
I miss the Red Tail
 
Italianflyer
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:07 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 40):
Let me make my thoughts a bit clearer. I see the FL acquisition as a way to clean out competition and prevent excess capacity. FL was pretty well saturated east of the Mississippi. They only had one way to grow in the US and that would have started to impact WN even more. IMO, this was a preemptive move to avoid having to deal with FL expanding a lot in the central and western US.

Valid point....it also helped that Forano & Co. were eager to cut and run after the failed ATA asset play in MDW and Midwest takeover in MKE. They knew those were the last, best opportunities to grow the network outside of ATL and Florida. They did not have the cash on hand building an organic hub in say....MCI or STL. I strongly suspect that FL was the one who made the first overtures to get this merger done.
Just an assumption....if anyone knows the inside intel I am quite curious.
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:20 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 40):
is it just me, or is that kinda rude? anyway

I'm sorry, was I talking to you? BTW, it IS just you, as it has been used on this forum many times and you're the first I've seen to complain. I hope that didn't give you a reason not to like me. Obviously, whether you do or not is totally irrelevant.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 40):
not everyone wants to sign up for a credit card. I HATE credit cards. I'm a 100% cash guy (even though I have a credit card for those situations when its required) and respect those that refuse to apply to every single credit card opportunity out there.

Did lightsaber say he refused to sign up for a card or are you talking for him? I merely pointed out that....

'The Delta Skymiles card from American Express gives you the first bag free for you and up to 8 others traveling with you'.

Apply TODAY !!
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
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cjg225
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:21 am

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
I think you, me, and scores of others here on this site all recognize that WN is hardly this LCC upstart anymore but a true mature legacy carrier with the same legacy problems. I just wish the media would stop with the teflon darling treatment--it's pathetic, really.

I am still amazed at how pervasive the idea is that WN is still this truly low-cost carrier that shames the legacy carriers. I don't religiously price shop my flights since I'll pay for convenience, but I will take good deals. WN very, very rarely has lower prices for what I fly. WN is often *above*-average cost when I am checking around.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
ouboy79
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:39 am

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 43):
Did I ever mention anything about profits? I was merely saying that they essentially locked themselves out of charging for baggage as a revenue stream with their aggressive bags fly free campaign should they decide that that's best.

I would say calculated risk. The system in place is more than capable of charging for bags, but they didn't want to go that route. As stated before, there is no need to charge for bags when other carriers immediately match your fare increases - every single time.

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 43):
OK, great numbers. Why are they pushing for these concessions ( less sick days, outsourcing) then. I sense a bit more to this story.

I think we just need to look at where WN is having to expand going forward. The days of launching markets with 10-12 daily flights is over. When they go international, they'll need to have this flexibility for stations that will only have a flight or two a day. Also domestically there aren't anymore large cities to go into that can support a lot of capacity. The DSMs, DAYs, and BKGs are where the growth will be.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:15 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 33):
The Delta Skymiles Card from American Express' would give you free bags for you and up to 8 others. You, your kids, your friends, your friend's kids.

Fair enough. That opens one more option...

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 46):
Did lightsaber say he refused to sign up for a card or are you talking for him? I merely pointed out that....

I took no offense. I just ignore credit card offers after getting a few good cards...

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
jethawk
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:42 am

RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:37 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 42):
As I stated above, it's between 2-4 agents working turnarounds on all types.

I would have thought your precious union would protect you from breaking a sweat. I hope you at least park planes with two wing walkers.
Run up in the sky so deep it be crying
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:45 am

Quoting jethawk (Reply 50):
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 42):
As I stated above, it's between 2-4 agents working turnarounds on all types.

I would have thought your precious union would protect you from breaking a sweat. I hope you at least park planes with two wing walkers.

I'm sorry...what's your point?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
justlump
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:58 am

RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:31 am

Quoting jethawk (Reply 50):

No, unfortunately we only get one wing walker.

As others have pointed out, flights are worked using 2 to 4 rampers depending on the schedule, time of day, etc.

The Union is concerned with outsourcing employees, cutting sick time, two-tiered wages, and adequate staffing for the 800s.
WN rampers are loyal, productive, and hard-working. We are aware of the changes to the industry and want to keep WN competitive.
One thing to remember is that with the "Bags Fly Free" policy, WN rampers are getting hammered. I used to work for Continental/United and I can honestly say that the 737 bag loads at WN are easily DOUBLE what I experienced at CO/UA. Since the bags are free...our customers take EVERYTHING with them. Add a maxed-out bag load with a 25min turn and you are putting a serious strain on your workforce. That is extra wear and tear on your body, extra fatigue, and a greater chance of injury.
For example, a couple of weeks ago during Spring Break we unloaded a full 73G while two gates away United rampers unloaded a full 753. Both flights terminated and were completely unloaded. Talking to some United rampers afterward, I found out that both airlines downloaded approximately the same amount of bags! Thats right, a UA 757-300 had the same bag load as a WN 737 (and we downloaded ours in half the time!)!
So, considering our productivity and work load, we just want a fair contract. But don't get me wrong, we want Southwest to be successful and competitive as well.
 
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:10 am

Quoting justlump (Reply 52):
One thing to remember is that with the "Bags Fly Free" policy, WN rampers are getting hammered. I used to work for Continental/United and I can honestly say that the 737 bag loads at WN are easily DOUBLE what I experienced at CO/UA. Since the bags are free...our customers take EVERYTHING with them.

   Bag loads have easily doubled in the 8 years I've been at WN! Size and weight if each individual bag has gone way up as well.

Quoting justlump (Reply 52):
No, unfortunately we only get one wing walker.

We get one wing walker on pushback (except for extremely tight gates), none for parking arrivals. I wouldn't be surprised if more wing walkers are required in the future as WN has adopted just about every traditional procedure in the name of safety since the FL deal. But a 2 wing walker requirement would be a NIGHTMARE. We already find plenty of situations where individual agents are supposed to be at two places at the same time out there, so there's really not enough staff for that kind of requirement.

[Edited 2013-03-30 03:13:13]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 13500
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:19 am

Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Outsourcing, they can outsource any stations opened post 2009 with less than, (I believe) 8 flights. The comnpany is trying to be able to outsource any station, 555 is trying to prevent that!

If the union Is so convinced of the superiority of their workforce vs. what a contracted vendor could provide, why not have a clause where the union has the right to bid on any potentially-outsourced work and stay within X percent of the vendor?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
WN could have bag fees... But they have grabbed most of the customers who want to avoid them.

  

There hasn't been a discernible shift in market share toward WN since bag fees came into widespread existence at other carriers. In fact, that's why AS eventually chose to go with bag fees - those "goodwill bookings" of customers defecting from fee-charging carriers never materialized.

Quoting justlump (Reply 52):
Since the bags are free...our customers take EVERYTHING with them. Add a maxed-out bag load with a 25min turn and you are putting a serious strain on your workforce. That is extra wear and tear on your body, extra fatigue, and a greater chance of injury.

You're actually making an excellent argument for charging bag fees; fewer customers would check bags, they'd be lighter on average, and OJI/LTI rates would decrease.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
vegas005
Posts: 263
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RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:54 am

The government needs to close the loophole for ancillary fees such as baggage fees as the revenue is not taxed. Once this is in done we would see the true price to fly. As it is now it is a crap shoot.
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL

Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:03 pm

Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 37):
Senior citizens

Not there yet! Closing in fast, though.   

And you, whippersnapper (at 15), aren't anywhere near a DL (NW doesn't exist anymore) ramp.  
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue