30/3/13 Last Day Of BA 747 Operations To Australia

shamrock321 · Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:43 am

Hello everybody,

I think it's worth a mention that today is the last day of 747 operations for BA between London and Australia.

The daily flight via Singapore will be switched to a 777-300.
Although sad to see the 747 leaving the route, the 777 will provide a much improved product for BA.

Is it still possible to fly a 747 all the way from UK to Australia?

Anybody got any memories of 747 Kangaroo route flights worth sharing?

PHX787 · Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:49 am

Well this surely is sad, as I am a huge BA744 fanboy lol

But I agree the 777 is a fine product for such a route.

Lufthansa · Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:03 am

At a quick guess I think Thai might be the only possibility. Thai has 744 flights to sydney still but I'm not sure about LHR, though there are destinations in Europe like ARN and CPH that will stay 747 for a while for thai. Other than that, I'm thinking the odd United via SFO when SFO-LHR operates as 747. (to my memory they keep switching this flight from 747 to 777 depending on the market)

QF pulled out when it chopped the LHR-BKK/HKG flights, Cathay ages ago when it went all A330 Australia- Hong Kong,
MAS recently pulled the last 744 route, KUL to SYD, Singapore obviously no 744s left, JAL is down to a single 777 flight to australia, and the chinese use mostly A330s to Australia. Not much hope I'd say.

The 77W will be popular with Economy and Premium economy PAX with a big improvement in onboard experience for them.

aerokiwi · Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:13 am

I flew this route on BA two weeks ago on a 20+ year old 744. Sorry to say but it was pathetically tired on the interior, with overhead cabin bin doors that would hang open on one side (three in my section of the economy cabin alone) and some pretty heavy wear and tear on the seats.

Wish I could have got the 77W.

eljas · Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:40 am

I flew the route in December, was not looking forward to the 21 hours flying in an aged 744. They may look amazing from the outside, but the older ones BA used on 15/16 (mid J config, no new F usually) were challenging in Y over that distance. Fortunately for me BA upgraded me to J for the SYD-SIN-LHR flight. Much more pleasant experience.

I'll be flying SIN-LHR on BA16 in a few weeks, looking forward to trying the new Y product which looks like a vast improvement. I just wish with most of the 744s looking like they're in service for another 10-15 years BA would fit new Y/W to them, as they are with J/F.

skipness1E · Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:40 am

Also flew the BA015 / 016 last week and the aircraft was showing it's age even though one was only 14 years old. G-CIVX and G-BNLY. AVOD played up both ways and the cabin crew were frankly just going through the motions. This route needs Mixed Fleet urgently.
Thai are putting the B744 back onto LHR-BKK this week I believe but if you want to experience a B744, try a shorter flight. BA to the US East Coast is a good sector length, not a full day to Sydney.

sweair · Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:44 am

I have flown LH and AF on that route plenty of time during the 90s, AF was my favorite airline back then, LH even put a 767 on that route once I flew. But most times I flew on 744s

BA174 · Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:19 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):

I think that's a highly unfair comment, a bad or not to satisfaction Worldwide crew does not mean the route "urgently needs mixed fleet" at all. Mixed fleet at the end of the day are just another cabin crew fleet at BA and people will continue to have the good and bad from all fleets including Mixed Fleet. I'm not against Mixed Fleet or anything (far from it) but I do believe that the sigma/argument that the original crew are miserable and past it, yet Mixed Fleet are absolutely flawless and outstanding beyond all measure and never do a thing wrong frankly belongs back in 2010.

At the end of the day cabin crew fleet should have nothing to do with the customer experience on the SYD service and most customers won't even know the difference. Your poor experience could have really happened with any fleet as it does to other people, every now and then you get a bad crew, but it's nothing at all do so with their wage I'm afraid.

skipness1E · Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:46 am

Quoting BA174 (Reply 7):
Mixed fleet at the end of the day are just another cabin crew fleet at BA and people will continue to have the good and bad from all fleets including Mixed Fleet.

Key driver is that unlike a very senior route like WW on NRT, SIN and SYD, Mixed Fleet are young, let's be honest sexy in many cases, enthusiastic and hard working. This is not something I find with WW who seem to do the bare minimum. Of course this is not true in all cases but there are good reasons people prefer to fly Emirates, Cathay and Singapore and the quality of the staff is one of them, this affects the bottom line no end. It's harsh and unfair as you say, it's also true on a customer experience level.

fallap · Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:29 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 2):

Thai announced a few weeks ago, that they would switch the 744 to a 773 on the BKG-CPH route.

TC957 · Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:36 am

TG switches back to a 744 to LHR from tomorrow so them , UA via SFO and BA/QF via LAX remain the only all-747 options for LHR-SYD.

skipness1E · Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:47 am

I believe Thai are aiming for LHR to have the A388 quite soon.

richardw · Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:30 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
I believe Thai are aiming for LHR to have the A388 quite soon.

That's what I'm waiting for.

FlyCaledonian · Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:10 pm

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Photo © George Canciani

BOAC 747-136 at MEL (diverted from SYD), 1973

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Photo © Paul Robinson

British Airways 747-136 at BNE, 1977

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Photo © Paul McCarthy

British 747-136 at SYD, 1981

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British Airways 747-236B at ADL, 1989

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British Airways 747-436 at PER, 1997

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Photo © Craig Murray

Two British Airways 747-436s at SYD, 1999

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British Airways 747-436 and Qantas 747-438 at SYD, 2006

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Photo © Bradley M

British Airways 747-436 at SYD, 1999, sporting 'Wunala Dreaming' World Tail

virtual · Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:45 pm

What is 'Mixed Fleet' at BA?

SKAirbus · Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:01 pm

Sad day.. Also worth noting that all BA flights to SIN and SYD will swtich over to Terminal 5 with the launch of the 777-300 flights.

shuttle9juliet · Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting virtual (Reply 14):

Cheap labour, 19 year old girls, and a high turnover of staff every 6 months.!!!

Mixed fleet is crew who fly both Longhaul and shorthaul routes.

rutankrd · Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:29 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 16):
Mixed fleet is crew who fly both Longhaul and shorthaul routes.

And work on both A32X AND 777 Fleets.

anstar · Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):
This route needs Mixed Fleet urgently.

Well SYD is moving to mixed fleet - so that problem is solved.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 16):
Cheap labour, 19 year old girls, and a high turnover of staff every 6 months.!!!

Cheap yes, but not all are inexperienced. Lots on Mixed Fleet have come from BA, BMI, Virgin Atlantic, Thomson, Thomas Cook etc with years of experience.

shuttle9juliet · Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 18):

I never said any were inexperienced, but the ones I have come across have been very efficient.
Also a lot have left to go back to there original airlines EZY ect as they pay more, so I've been told.

anstar · Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:08 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 19):
I never said any were inexperienced,

Well when you say

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 16):
19 year old girls,

It comes across as implying that they are inexperienced. Most are in their twenties/thirties.

shuttle9juliet · Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:29 pm

[quote=anstar,reply=20][/
Did I say in any post, that they were inexperienced?
I am not sure what the employment deal is in the Netherlands , but I started working for the airlines when I was 16 as an apprentice, surely by 19 years old you have gained some experience in what you do?

anstar · Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:42 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 21):
surely by 19 years old you have gained some experience in what you do?

You have to be 18 to be cabin crew in the UK.

dirktraveller · Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:48 pm

Sad to hear BA 744 is officially leaving the Kangaroo route, although the 77W serving the route tomorrow onwards would have an improved product.

Quoting shamrock321 (Thread starter):

I think it's worth a mention that today is the last day of 747 operations for BA between London and Australia.

Quoting shamrock321 (Thread starter):
Anybody got any memories of 747 Kangaroo route flights worth sharing?

I agree, although I have no memories of flying 'kangaroo route' on the 744. I was supposed to join the second last 744 service on SYD-SIN BA 16 flight on the 29th, unfortunately the flight was cancelled and I have to be rebooked into another flight because of my schedule.

Good luck to BA and their service to Australia with the 77Ws.

Regards,
Dirktraveller

shuttle9juliet · Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 22):

Luckily I am not cabin crew ha ha .
What I am trying to say is people can leave school in the UK at 16, begin working at 16, so say for example they work for 3 years in a hotel , or restaurant, or any public sector, then at 18 or 19 onto an airline, surely they are bringing some experience with them?

Anyway moving on and eh oh yeah, last 747 ops to SYD?..

LondonCity · Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
I believe Thai are aiming for LHR to have the A388 quite soon.

According to this report, Thai hopes to roster the A380 for London later this year:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...route-when-next-planes-arrive.html

shuttle9juliet · Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 25):

Jumbo coming back this week.

sw733 · Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting shamrock321 (Thread starter):

Is it still possible to fly a 747 all the way from UK to Australia?

Well sure, but it takes a bit of a detour...

LHR-JNB: BA 744 (BA 55 or BA 57)
JNB-SYD: QF 744 (QF 64)

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 3):
I flew this route on BA two weeks ago on a 20+ year old 744. Sorry to say but it was pathetically tired on the interior, with overhead cabin bin doors that would hang open on one side (three in my section of the economy cabin alone) and some pretty heavy wear and tear on the seats.

Wish I could have got the 77W.

Truth. Their 744s are not too pretty. The 77W is vastly superior in my mind. I don't much care what my a/c looks like on the outside, but I sure as heck care what it looks (and feels) like on the inside.

qfvhoqa · Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 10):

TG switches back to a 744 to LHR from tomorrow so them , UA via SFO and BA/QF via LAX remain the only all-747 options for LHR-SYD.

You can still fly via SIN for an all 744 service. BA11 to SIN then QF6 to SYD is still all 744. Also BA25 to HKG then QF128 to SYD (only Sun-Wed).

skipness1E · Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:01 am

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 19):

Also a lot have left to go back to there original airlines EZY ect as they pay more, so I've been told.

I think this is a myth, BA pay market rate +X% with a much greater amount of layovers than EZY. I have a few mates on MF who are loving seeing the world. The pay isn't great but that's exactly to discourage people seeing it as a career and keeping the enthusiasm fresh and the sex appeal up.
Mixed Fleet also work on the B744 btw

tonystan · Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:01 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 29):
Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 19):

Also a lot have left to go back to there original airlines EZY ect as they pay more, so I've been told.

I think this is a myth, BA pay market rate +X% with a much greater amount of layovers than EZY. I have a few mates on MF who are loving seeing the world. The pay isn't great but that's exactly to discourage people seeing it as a career and keeping the enthusiasm fresh and the sex appeal up.
Mixed Fleet also work on the B744 btw

Sex appeal????

It's a job for goodness sake, and one with responsibly! I want professionals with experience looking after my safety, not some dim wit totty who can barely keep her eyes open because she's so bloody exhausted from not only working the most horrific duties but also being out partying on minimum rest layovers.

If all you value is having something to look at in the air well it says far more about you! Bring back the 'grannies' I say, everyone loves a trip to see their granny!

BA really is losing its class, you just have to look at the Mylene Klass campaign to see how cheap the airline is becoming!

VK gets into every forum!

22886 · Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:06 am

Also worth mentioning, tonight (30MAR13) was the last Qantas flights on the Kangaroo route via SIN. From tomorrow QF1/2 and QF9/10 will fly via DXB, with a whole different demographic of passengers joining onto onward flights on the EK network.

shamrock137 · Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:48 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 17):

And work on both A32X AND 777 Fleets.

Can someone clarify why this is a big issue? Other large airlines like UA or DL have cabin crew operating all fleet types so an FA could work IAD to SJU on an A320 then IAD to NRT on a 777 in the same week.

skipness1E · Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:29 am

tonystan you must be aware how succesful Singapore Girls as a marketing campaign is. I assure you it is possible to be prefesssional, hot and competent all at once. Indeed Mixed Fleet are being held to higher professional standards than their strike prone and unmanageable predecessors.

ClassicLover · Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:58 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 33):
Indeed Mixed Fleet are being held to higher professional standards than their strike prone and unmanageable predecessors.

I think you'll find you're wrong. All BA cabin crew regardless of fleet are held to the same standards and trained to the same standards. Mixed Fleet is just on a contract more beneficial to BA - and more in line with current market rates being paid to crew in the United Kindgom. The fact that people are choosing to do the work does not mean the pay is bad.

Anyway, who knows, you may see Mixed Fleet being put onto LHR-SIN-SYD sooner than you think, especially if BA are trying to make the economics of the route work for them. More efficient aircraft with a much more competitive product, plus a cheaper crew = more profit (or less losses!)

RyanairGuru · Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:30 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 13):

Thanks for that

I didn't realise that the 747 on the Kangaroo Route went back such a long way, 40 years!

Quoting anstar (Reply 18):
Well SYD is moving to mixed fleet - so that problem is solved.

September 30 IIRC.

I for one won't be flying that route after that, but clearly I won't see eye-to-eye with Skipness on that.

The only MF flight I take is Manchester, and that's because BA were the only option. Other routes (especially longhaul) I will exercise my right to fly the competition.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8):
unlike a very senior route like WW on NRT, SIN and SYD

I'm not sure you understand how WW works, crew don't bid routes like, say, the US carriers. Whereas at AA the "desirable" routes go to the senior mammas, WW crew only get (I think) 1 bid per 6 months, and even then your request isn't guaranteed.

All WW crew are mixed up together, and you're statistically just as likely to find an all "junior" (30s) crew to HK as you are to find an all senior crew to FNA.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 17):
And work on both A32X AND 777 Fleets.

And 747

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 29):
the sex appeal up.

In the 21st Century? Really?

Quoting tonystan (Reply 30):
I want professionals with experience looking after my safety, not some dim wit totty who can barely keep her eyes open because she's so bloody exhausted from not only working the most horrific duties but also being out partying on minimum rest layovers.

Quoting Shamrock137 (Reply 32):
Can someone clarify why this is a big issue?

That isn't the issue with Mixed Fleet crew.

Traditionally BA had separate crew for short haul (32S and 767) and long haul (767, 777, 747) who are (admittedly) on pretty generous contracts compared to their competitors. These two groups are referred to as "Eurofleet" and "Worldwide".

After the strikes, BA created an all new category ("Mixed Fleet") who operate both short and long haul. The major gripes about this work group isn't the fact that it flies both types of route (as you say, that is common among foreign carriers) but rather:

(1) they are employed on substantially inferior contracts, with worse pay and conditions
(2) they fly some pretty horrendous duties, with less slip time that their legacy colleagues
(3) they are generally younger, and therefore (for want of a better word) more immature
(4) there have been several complaints to the airline about MF crews' behaviour during layovers, most notably NBO and LAS. At NBO the hotel that BA use threaten to terminate their contract due to crew antics.

[Edited 2013-03-31 04:40:01]

edina · Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:37 am

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 19):

And Mixed Fleet has also been a well trained source of crew for Little Red. The turnover has been high enough for MFs terms & conditions to have been improved significantly, and BA are also worried about the numbers joining the MF branch of Unite (getting close to the figure required for compulsory membership).

[Edited 2013-03-31 05:14:50]

skipness1E · Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:16 pm

Compulsory membership in 2013 ? Like a closed shop? Do you mean compulsory recognition?

edina · Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:25 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 37):

. Bit bleary eyed here being a Bank Holiday.....for membership red recognition.
Wow!

babybus · Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:36 pm

I'm used to the BA 744s thundering off over my house to Australia and thinking of those poor people with 22hrs flying ahead of them.

Is it the case then that those 744s were not flying out full hence the need to downgrade the aircraft? It seems an odd change in fortune suddenly.

rutankrd · Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:08 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 39):
Is it the case then that those 744s were not flying out full hence the need to downgrade the aircraft? It seems an odd change in fortune suddenly.

No its pure cost and offering a far superior experience with the 77W fleet.

Oh and some capacity reshaping on the low margin back of the bus.

As they are no longer in a JV with the Kangaroo they have taken out some of Y seats that QF would have sold on.

Its all driven to make the route sustainable and improved margin in light of the ever present dangers from the ME3.

tonystan · Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 33):

tonystan you must be aware how succesful Singapore Girls as a marketing campaign is. I assure you it is possible to be prefesssional, hot and competent all at once. Indeed Mixed Fleet are being held to higher professional standards than their strike prone and unmanageable predecessors.

Well as a 31 year old and a member of said fleet I assure you that you have a very obscure and totally inaccurate view of the WW and EF crews and one which no doubt has developed from some petty grudge. The highest of standards are practiced by this strike prone (one period of industrial action in a 13 year period would actually count well with most western nation carriers but heyo, you read the daily mail and I don't so perhaps I'm missing something!) and unmanageable group of folk. I have endured hours of listening to complaints from CVIPs, Prem card holders, Golds etc about just how frustrating they find the MF flights, complaints that I just find impossible to offer an adequate resolve.

With over 30 former MF crew now in Virgin uniforms flying domestics on the little red contract and others from BA bringing their experience to the likes of Etihad, EI, EK etc I wonder how long the company can jjustify the constant recruitment, especially now that they have secured union representation and can fight for better conditions.

We all know that the SYD is on its last legs at BA and moving to to MF in September is the company's last ditch attempt at turning this service around. Even the accountants know it won't work but the reduction allowances and the fact it can be done in just 8 days on a MF contract may help. It has nothing to do with the fact that the crew are " all that", just simply put, they are cheap! I was always of the opinion that you pay for quality!

by738 · Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:44 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 41):
Well as a 31 year old and a member of said fleet

Great to hear comments from someone who actually works directly in the field being discussed !

Lufthansa · Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:01 am

BA's been playing second fiddle to QF ever since QF introduced the A380 on this route. This has BA's newest product on all classes and is a more efficient aircraft than the 744 it replaces. It's an attempt to catch up. For BA...the loss wasn't previously a big deal as these flights were metal neutral and BA pax that bought BA flights on QF A380s brought in profit to BA. That is obviously the case no more. I guarantee you that there would be a certain amount of european based BA PAX that after they got on the far more spacious upper deck of the A380 would have started picking QF for the flight, that perhaps may have previously thought of BA as a little more sophisticated option.

skipness1E · Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:35 am

Actually you may be right. I briefly dated a BASSAmentalist. Tough days. I understand SYD makes money but the asset can make more elsewhere due to utilisation. As to your comments about bidding, you should be aware that rampant favouritism was the norm until recently with the same faces getting the best routes. The biggest issue BA had with EF and WW was they were a law unto themselves. MF's turnover is a little higher than they want but turnover is exactly what they're after. The market wants sexy and enthusiastic, Branson knows this, Cathay and Singapore know this. It's sexist, unfair and discriminatory but it's true. The word "tired" is overused on feedback forums.

Make no mistake, BA do not want career cabin crew, they want young things to party round the world for a few years then get out and find a new job. Harsh and painful to hear but again, I think it's true.

Btw you're mixing up accountancy with yield management surely. You do pay for quality that's true, but if you can get someone up to speed in well under a year, why pay them more? Just replace them with someone less jaded for the same money? Is it MF from Sep but WW from today on the B77W?

Wasn't BA015/016 a B772 recently as well?

Auchmithie · Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:43 am

The switch of the QF flights to route through DXB is key here. As the only OneWorld carrier on LHR-SIN,
and as the OneWorld carrier offering the best product, and the only OneWorld carrier offering First
and Premium Economy on SYD-SIN, BA can focus their marketing, and manipulate availability to concentrate on both halves of the route separately rather than the less profitable LHR-SYD market.

ClassicLover · Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:51 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 44):
The market wants sexy and enthusiastic, Branson knows this, Cathay and Singapore know this. It's sexist, unfair and discriminatory but it's true. The word "tired" is overused on feedback forums.

Not really, while the MF crew are younger, they are in no way all young. Quite a few of them are in their 40s and up as well, having flown on trips with MF crew as a cling on several times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 44):
Make no mistake, BA do not want career cabin crew, they want young things to party round the world for a few years then get out and find a new job. Harsh and painful to hear but again, I think it's true.

This is pretty standard. Wanting turnover also reduces union membership, lowes the clamour for pay rises and so on. To be fair, if anyone wants to be career crew, there are plenty of other airlines they can join after serving at BA. It's not like there aren't options.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 44):
Wasn't BA015/016 a B772 recently as well?

Yeah it was a 772 recently.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 44):
Is it MF from Sep but WW from today on the B77W?

This is correct. I wasn't sure I was able to put it on the forum - but yes, MF have the route from September. 8 or 9 day trip for them. Considering what I have heard that Worldwide crew get for their allowances on this route, that saving alone will severely reduce costs - notwithstanding the lower base salary and less days off downroute.

flyingthe757 · Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:59 pm

I thought this was a thread about the last 747 to Australia? Why am I reading about the pros and cons of different crew?

I have flown the route with BA and QF, and you cant compare the experience on-board between the 380 and the older 74 that was on it. Would love to try out the new 773 and the product it has on board, especially that F cabin!

shuttle9juliet · Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:01 pm

STBF operated the first service

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