cle757
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United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:18 pm

United's ramp,ticket agents and store employees all have voted no to a tentative contract agreement with the IAM..with very little job protection its no surprise!

http://www.iam141.mobi/news.html
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sulley
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:55 pm

Excellent (and not surprising) news.
In thrust we trust!
 
jetmatt777
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:24 am

Glad this failed. The contract was garbage.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
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zippyjet
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:28 am

Cool! Because if they passed it, other airlines would take notice and we'd all be thrown under the landing gear!
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VonRichtofen
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:35 am

Can somebody give us some coles notes on what the rejected contract offer was?
 
jetmatt777
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:54 am

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 4):

Per the effective date (4/1/13) all but 16 stations would be eligible for outsourcing. Those 16 protected stations would be eligible for outsourcing effective 4/1/16 except LAX IAH DEN SFO ORD EWR IAD.

That was the deal breaker for me.

The pay would stay the same for me (they copied the sCO pay scale) so it didn't bother me. Although we would have lost our yearly pay raises for inflation. Instead we would receive one lump pay increase in 2016. At CO you received a pay raise every June of 2% to account for inflation and cost of living increases.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:57 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 5):
Those 16 protected stations would be eligible for outsourcing effective 4/1/16 except LAX IAH DEN SFO ORD EWR IAD.

Wow! Are you actually suggesting that come 2016 UA could outsource every station except for its hubs?

I understand why that got a no vote, then.

In all seriousness, why did IAM even agree to put this to a vote? Was it just to send a message to management?
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
style
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:16 am

The IAM is also to blame for the way this agreement was structured. I have a friend in iah who works on the Ramp for the CO side and he says a lot of them are upset at the IAM and not the company for dividing the work groups even more by giving different signing bonuses (which the union conveniently called retro pay) to each subsidiary.

He says the sub-UA employees are upset that certain healthcare plans will be gone and that they haven't been made whole going all the way back to 2005.

The sub-CO people are upset that their pay rates wouldn't even go up in some instances and a 3 year pay freeze until April 2016, and then 2.5% increase. Like a previous poster stated, the sub-CO side has traditionally gotten 2.5% increases every year (during good years), so this pay freeze after the initial bump left some people scratching their heads.

The icing on top for voting no was the huge payday the pilots got, he says a lot of people were insulted by this after the pilots got soo much in their agreement.
 
jetmatt777
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:24 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 6):
Wow! Are you actually suggesting that come 2016 UA could outsource every station except for its hubs?

I'm not suggesting it, that's what was written in the proposed contract.

Whether or not they'd outsource every station is debatable and uncertain, but the company would have no contractual obligation to it's employees to keep them. Not much security in that. All the company would be required to do for us is provide 90 days notice they are outsourcing the work. Oh and give us furlough pay.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:36 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 8):
I'm not suggesting it, that's what was written in the proposed contract.

Sorry, poor choice of language by me. I was just checking that I'd read what you had written correctly.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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malaysia
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:56 am

I have some friends at UA and one big deal breaker for them was now having to pay Health Insurance, they currently get free family medical and dental HMO as an option. but the new agreement had them paying maybe now $500 to $800 a month for a family. Id hate to be in that position
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coairman
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:04 am

I think the base hourly pay is relatively low in relation to WN's $26/hour wages plus UA is forcing CO's relatively expensive health insurance plans into the new UA. Paying $200/ mo for a crappy Kaiser HMO for two people is not good verses Almost free for pre merger UA now. Plus as noted above, dividing the s-Ua and s-co compensation. I think the IAM IS CLUELESS as to what it's members want. Very sad and unacceptable.
The views I express are of my own, and not the company I work for.
 
HSVflier
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:10 am

Quoting malaysia (Reply 10):
I have some friends at UA and one big deal breaker for them was now having to pay Health Insurance, they currently get free family medical and dental HMO as an option. but the new agreement had them paying maybe now $500 to $800 a month for a family. Id hate to be in that position

Like the rest of America? No wonder the US airlines cant compete. Big overhead due to unions and subpar product compared to european and Middle eastern airlines. Another reason im going back to Delta, less union power.
Flown DL, UA, CO, WN, LH, TZ, WO, AA, US, LO, HA, PX, NW, KE, AB, QR, LX, EE, 5Y
 
jetmatt777
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:19 am

Here's the exact wording of the Job Security subpart.

Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
T5towbar
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:24 am

This is what this garbage is all about:

This TA was garbage from the start. This TA was divisive from the start. It allowed outsourcing except at the 7 hubs till 2016. Express work in the hubs till 2016. Some of the larger stations would be outsourced at that 2016 date like BOS; CLE; etc. In other words: NO SCOPE AT ALL! This would have opened the door for a bad situation for every carrier. Everybody can't move or bump into a hub like ORD or EWR.

Since sUA haven't had a raise since their contract (IAM) and we (sCO) were under the IBT contract, we are supposed to get our last raise for 2013 at 2.5%. So they wanted to use our raise as the bar to set the new scale. But sCO would lose their 1.00 Market Override which was "red circled" in the contract for high cost of living cities. And no raises till 2015 @6%. Bottom line was sCO employees were gaining nothing from this contract. It was a pay cut for a lot of people, myself included. Plus it had "protection dates" which had neglected a lot of people. Good scope like WN would avoid having job protection dates. It's not all about the money..........

The medical was supposed to be based on the deal that the pilots got. But as it will turn out, our costs would be much higher. (IMHO the free medical that sUA got would be lost in any deal anyway)

The company gave a signing bonus of 130 million which was clearly stated as a "signing bonus" in the LOA, but since they did not negotiate retro for sUA, the IAM wanted to dress this payment up as retro for them while sCO only will get 1 percent, and ATO on the sCO side would get 3 percent. That was another bone of contention.

Passenger Service had their own issues like they would create another classification to assist the agents upstairs with a scale between 9 to 15 (top) an hour. That position would undercut and undermine their jobs.

The vote was happened in a very short timeframe (9 days) since the company wanted this done by April 1. A lot of people did not receive their ballots. The company needs this integration (from all of the workgroups), but it won't happen anytime soon.

This deal had to fail, and they have to go back to the table. SCOPE & MEDICAL were and still is the two most important issues that we wanted to be dealt with. We're not a bankrupt carrier, but the're negotiating like we are. We're not asking for the moon, just to protect our jobs from all of these beancounters.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
T5towbar
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:30 am

Oh, and I forgot about the Seniority issue. The IAM passed it over to an arbitrator and should be decided by the 15th of April. Well after the contract ratification. That's a no vote right there as well.

The only thing we have in this industry is our SENIORITY.
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FlyDeltaJets
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:59 am

I'm leery anytime the union and the company are both pointing out how great a deal they struck. A great deal never fully satisfies both sides at the table. Only one can view it as great.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
COSPN
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:59 am

So how long for a "good" contract ?? 2 to 3 years ??
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:14 am

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 14):
We're not a bankrupt carrier, but the're negotiating like we are. We're not asking for the moon, just to protect our jobs from all of these beancounters.

Hey this sounds familiar. Welcome to the club!  
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
COEWR787
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:11 pm

Quoting HSVflier (Reply 12):
Like the rest of America? No wonder the US airlines cant compete. Big overhead due to unions and subpar product compared to european and Middle eastern airlines. Another reason im going back to Delta, less union power.

Oddly enough the only place they seem to make a killing competing is on the International Routes. It is in the Domestic sector that they have difficulty making money, except of course the couple of known exceptions, a sector where there is no European and Middle Eastern carriers to contend with.
 
jayunited
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:24 pm

Quoting Reply 7):
The IAM is also to blame for the way this agreement was structured. I have a friend in iah who works on the Ramp for the SA)">CO side and he says a lot of them are upset at the IAM and not the company for dividing the work groups even more by giving different signing bonuses (which the union conveniently called retro pay) to each subsidiary.

He says the sub-UA employees are upset that certain healthcare plans will be gone and that they haven't been made whole going all the way back to 2005.

The sub-CO people are upset that their pay rates wouldn't even go up in some instances and a 3 year pay freeze until April 2016, and then 2.5% increase. Like a previous poster stated, the sub-CO side has traditionally gotten 2.5% increases every year (during good years), so this pay freeze after the initial bump left some people scratching their heads

First of all sCO ramp agents have a contract that they ratified with the Teamsters and Continental back in December 2010 and sCO ramp agents have been making $2 dollars more per hour than their counterparts at sUA since that date while doing the SAME job. sSA)">UA ramp employees have been with out a contract since January 1, 2010 and sUA employees did not get a dime or a signing bonus when sCO ramp agents ratified their contract in December of 2010. So it is to be expected that sUA ramp agents would get a bigger retro check than sCO ramp because any raise that they get in a new contract has be be retroactive back to January 1, 2010. To be absolutely truthful if United wanted to be a @$$ they could easily say sCO ramp agents are not entitled to a retro check or a signing bonus because at all. You might ask WHY?? it is because ALL sCO ramp agents are under an existing contract with the company that does not expire till July 1, 2013.

And actually sUA employees have not been made whole since 2002 when sUA under bankruptcy forced ramp agents to take $5 dollar an hour pay cut among other things (I won't go into details about all the sacrifices ramp employees and their families had to make when SA)">UA went into bankruptcy) What happened in 2005 was the company went to court to have all contracts (including pilots, FA, customer service, ramp, RES, stores and maintenance) extended for another 4 years because United claimed they didn't have money to give all of these employe groups raises. So sUA ramp agents have been making the amount of money we have been making since 2002.

United employees are not asking for much we are just asking for our fair share we are asking that the company acknowledge our sacrifices made during all those difficult years. Every since the company emerged from bankruptcy management has not only given themselves raises that have split millions of dollars in bonuses. As the cost of living started to really increase in 2007-2008-2009 I saw employees starting to work 12 hour days multiple days a week to make ends meet. When the financial crisis hit in 2010 and many employees spouses lost their jobs in other fields some United employees had no choice but to work everyday up to 16 hours a day just to be able to provide for their family and keep a roof over their children's head and food on the table. We have had here at O'Hare multiple employees since 2010 have massive strokes, heart attacks, we have people literally die (drop dead on the ramp) because they were the only provider in family who still had a job and to make it they had worked so many hours every day that they literally just dropped dead while at work. All the while people in positions of management from mid level position to the CEO gave themselves raises that totaled in the millions and retired (upper level management) with golden parachutes.

After reading the contract I knew it was trash instead of SA)">UA giving back the $5 dollars per hour that they took from Ramp and customer service agents they only offered a $3 dollar per hour raise then a pay freeze for the next 3 years followed by some crazy bonus. The contract also would leave about 16 medium size stations unprotected come 2016 and that would allow the company if United so decided to contract out the work performed at those stations and no one want to see that happen. A contract is a compromise and the employees are willing to compromise on certain issues but there are certain issues that we can not compromise on.

No one here at United wants to see the company go back into bankruptcy but it is time for United to acknowledge what their non-managenet employees have had to endure financially especially since 2007 when the cost of living really started to rise and give us what we are owed that is all.
 
greaser
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:54 pm

Quoting HSVflier (Reply 12):
Big overhead due to unions and subpar product compared to european and Middle eastern airlines.

Two Issues: I dont think anyone on this forum wishes for ground staff to be compensated in the same manner that the Middle East airports compensate their ground staff, who comprise mostly of foreign nationals from the Indian subcontinent.

Second, you're sick of unions and so Europe is your natural alternate?
Now you're really flying
 
MaverickM11
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:09 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 22):
No one here at United wants to see the company go back into bankruptcy but it is time for United to acknowledge what their non-managenet employees have had to endure financially especially since 2007

Is it though? What leverage do ground employees have? Any strike would mean the outsourcing would happen faster and more broadly.

Quoting HSVflier (Reply 12):
Like the rest of America? No wonder the US airlines cant compete. Big overhead due to unions and subpar product compared to european and Middle eastern airlines. Another reason im going back to Delta, less union power.

It makes you wonder--I get consistently excellent customer service from Lowe's, Starbucks, even Kroger lately, and Skywest flight attendants run circles around UA mainline FAs--and they're paid nothing to do umpteen hops a day in a relatively brutal schedule. I can count on UA gate agents, however, to consistently go out of their way to make life difficult. They're like Lily Tomlin's phone company carrier character, "I just found your reservation, and I deleted it. Cuz I can."

[Edited 2013-03-31 16:12:37]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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ramprat74
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:17 pm

I haven't had a raise since April 26th, 2009. I can live with the top out pay they offered. Just give some kind of cost of living raise every year. I don't care for them calling the retro pay, a signing bonus. That means it will be gift taxed! I don't like the language about how can they can outsource 50 small line stations the day the contract is signed, and another 16 medium line stations after December 31, 2016. I loved the paragraph about if there isn't a signed contract by 11:00pm Central time on December 31st, 2016. The paragraph about the 16 line stations is voided. I been with United since before ESOP. Not one contract has been ratified on the expiration date ever! We always had to wait 2-3 years for a new contract.
 
style
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:20 pm

Quoting HSVflier (Reply 12):

Who says US Arlines can't compete? Are you really trying to compare a Middle East carrier that is heavily subsidized by the oil rich nation it serves to DL, UA, or AA? If you want to go down the Europe route, look into how often LH or TP or AZ are on a strike or wok slowdown.

Like another poster stated, both the company and union need to make adjustments to get a fair contract for both but this one simply didn't do it for the employees.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 22):

Please do not forget this also applies to above the wing employees on the s-CO side that feel insulted by the disparity of the signing bonus. S-CO above the wing was not represented by a union up until this point and I can tell you many of them looked at this contract and were amazed that they would be paying union dues for things they already had.

Here's my take: Shame on the IAM and shame on UA management for presenting such a deal to its Ramp and Ticket Agents.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:21 pm

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 25):
I been with United since before ESOP.

I don't know how to phrase this nicely, but why? UA is full of people who HATE their job and their airline but are hanging on FOREVER. AA too. Why stay if it's been such a mess for years with so many cuts and layoffs?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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ramprat74
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:42 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
Why stay if it's been such a mess for years with so many cuts and layoffs?

Because I still enjoy doing the job, and working along side the same people for half my life.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:44 pm

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 28):
Because I still enjoy doing the job, and working along side the same people for half my life.

Fair enough. Are you worried the long term trend is probably to outsource most, if not all of these jobs?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:47 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
I don't know how to phrase this nicely, but why? UA is full of people who HATE their job and their airline but are hanging on FOREVER. AA too. Why stay if it's been such a mess for years with so many cuts and layoffs?

I think for many they are trapped. If you're 45+ years old and have spent your whole career as a flight attendant, ramper or gate agent, you're in a bit of tough position. You don't have a tremendous amount of skills that can transfer to other decent paying jobs. You could try to find another career but that means starting over again which means not only bottom of the payscale, but you'll be lucky to find a job at all given rampant age discrimination.
 
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beachbum1970
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:57 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
Why stay if it's been such a mess for years with so many cuts and layoffs?

You must have never worked for an airline before. We stay because we've invested so much of our time and energy, basically our whole lives, into building relationships with our co-workers and customers, and building one of the world's greatest airlines. We turned down this contract BECAUSE our jobs were at stake. Heck, we had better job security language in our current contract that was written in bankruptcy!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:23 am

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 31):

You must have never worked for an airline before.

I've worked for several, from the ramp to HQ and everywhere in between. Loved them all, and when I started to hate one, I left and got a better job.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
If you're 45+ years old and have spent your whole career as a flight attendant, ramper or gate agent, you're in a bit of tough position. You don't have a tremendous amount of skills that can transfer to other decent paying jobs

That's clearly the biggest reason--for all the hemming and hawing, cutbacks, layoffs, and paycuts there are some jobs that are compensated incredibly well considering the skills required.

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 31):
We turned down this contract BECAUSE our jobs were at stake

I just don't see how this works out well in the long run. I imagine UA and other carriers will double down on outsourcing and now you have a lot of people with minimal skills on the street.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
F9Animal
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:28 am

I cant believe the IAM reached a TA with that bullcrap! Someone is getting stroked. Did the IAM think you guys would vote in favor of this?!!

I admit, I have to bite my tongue. How can anyone suggest just finding a new job? These men and women have invested years upon years with both UA and CO. They have endured paycuts, tragedy, bankruptcies, mergers, and absolute mismanagement. I think these agents deserve a pat on the back, and a contract rewarding them for all they have dealt with. How many times have these workers watched management enjoy bonuses and pay raises, that were not deserved? I hope UA gets serious, and hammers out a contract worth voting in favor of.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:53 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
How can anyone suggest just finding a new job?

Because anyone looking for job security in a low skilled position in the airline industry is bound to find the Easter bunny first...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
T5towbar
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:46 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
I just don't see how this works out well in the long run. I imagine UA and other carriers will double down on outsourcing and now you have a lot of people with minimal skills on the street

So just let it become a revolving door no benefit, no pay job then? While management keeps getting bonus after bonus?
Jeff already got paid a 14 million bonus and the merger isn't even completed yet. I call a complete merger when every workgroup is merged together on the same page. As far as I'm concerned, it is still sUA and sCO till ALL of the contracts are completed and the workforce is integrated and bidding together.

This TA was doomed from the beginning, and it is an insult. We can't be a party to our own demise.........
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
jetmatt777
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:06 pm

On the internal website, the company posted a short article about this on Saturday. The "article rating" feature had around 50 votes averaging 4.5 stars out of 5. (Meaning people liked that it got voted down). They cleared out the ratings today.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
MaverickM11
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:24 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 35):
So just let it become a revolving door no benefit, no pay job then?

It just seems inevitable; NW 86ed their mechanics pretty easily, I'm not sure how ground employees have more leverage than mechanics.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 36):
On the internal website, the company posted a short article about this on Saturday. The "article rating" feature had around 50 votes averaging 4.5 stars out of 5. (Meaning people liked that it got voted down). They cleared out the ratings today.

You're showin' em!

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 35):
Jeff already got paid a 14 million bonus and the merger isn't even completed yet.

There's plenty of undeserved compensation but outside of a few VPs at the top and up, no one is really making much at any airline outside of the mainline pilots.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
T5towbar
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:25 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 36):
On the internal website, the company posted a short article about this on Saturday. The "article rating" feature had around 50 votes averaging 4.5 stars out of 5. (Meaning people liked that it got voted down). They cleared out the ratings today.

Just noticed that one as well.
I also loved the little line: "We believe these tentative agreements are in the best interests of our co-workers and the company."

Yeah right..........
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
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Fiveholer
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:31 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 35):
So just let it become a revolving door no benefit, no pay job then? While management keeps getting bonus after bonus?
Jeff already got paid a 14 million bonus and the merger isn't even completed yet. I call a complete merger when every workgroup is merged together on the same page. As far as I'm concerned, it is still sUA and sCO till ALL of the contracts are completed and the workforce is integrated and bidding together.

This TA was doomed from the beginning, and it is an insult. We can't be a party to our own demise.........
Quoting T5towbar (Reply 38):
Just noticed that one as well.
I also loved the little line: "We believe these tentative agreements are in the best interests of our co-workers and the company."

Yeah right..........

The company simply doesn't care about the frontline. The people with pride who do the grunt work efficiently and safely.

Welcome to my RR list.
Bring back Bethune!
 
shuttle9juliet
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:35 pm

I find it pathetic..All big company's nowadays, Airlines included just want to outsource,outsource,outsource.
It is becoming a common trend but the unions need to keep fighting.....
All the Airlines want is cheap labour, and big bonuses for inept CEOs
"Pay peanuts, get monkeys"
Once you outsource, standards definitely drop, because nobody cares, they don't work for that airline, they don't get any benefits, they don't care about the passengers.
I've seen it all happen with BA in the UK.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting Fiveholer (Reply 39):
The people with pride who do the grunt work efficiently and safely.
Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 40):
Once you outsource, standards definitely drop, because nobody cares, they don't work for that airline, they don't get any benefits, they don't care about the passengers.

They don't care about the passengers as it is! I think carriers realize they can get crappy customer service from outsourced agents just as easily as in house with half the hassle.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
style
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RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:40 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):

Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
How can anyone suggest just finding a new job?

Because anyone looking for job security in a low skilled position in the airline industry is bound to find the Easter bunny first...


------------

I guess we only use Southwest as an example when it's convenient? Very good scope and a good paying job, is that too much to ask for these days?

These people work in a high security environment, they have access to aircraft and need to be up to date on regulatory training. Last time I was on UA or any airline for that matter I didn't want somebody that's working around the aircraft I'm flying on, who is loading luggage and cargo, towing the aircraft, to be a minimum wage worker with no benefits or job security. I want somebody who likes his job, strives to make a living off of it and is paid a decent wage with benefits at the end of the day.

Same, if not more goes for Customer Service Agents. These are the front line and the face of the company, the ones that deal with delays and cancellations when things go bad. Again, all I hear when I'm on a UA flight with the promo videos is how they are focused on customer service and investing heavily in it. You want good customer service? You need happy employees and it doesn't come cheap.

Again, like I said above, both the ramp and customer service agents need to realize this is about give and take for a fair deal to get done. This didn't look like a fair deal, especially after all the merger synergies UA keeps talking about. Like others said, it looks like a concessionary deal. Fuel to the fire was what the pilots got, 43% increase in pay over the life of the contract for some.....
 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 322
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:12 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 41):

I can partially agree with you on that one, but you have to ask the question, is why has the staff morale got so low in years?
I guess after years of cuts and concessions, and management still reaping large bonuses it must take its toll on frontline staff?
 
User avatar
Fiveholer
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting Reply 42):
These people work in a high security environment, they have access to aircraft and need to be up to date on regulatory training. Last time I was on UA or any airline for that matter I didn't want somebody that's working around the aircraft I'm flying on, who is loading luggage and cargo, towing the aircraft, to be a minimum wage worker with no benefits or job security. I want somebody who likes his job, strives to make a living off of it and is paid a decent wage with benefits at the end of the day.

Same, if not more goes for Customer Service Agents. These are the front line and the face of the company, the ones that deal with delays and cancellations when things go bad. Again, all I hear when I'm on a UA flight with the promo videos is how they are focused on customer service and investing heavily in it. You want good customer service? You need happy employees and it doesn't come cheap.

Again, like I said above, both the ramp and customer service agents need to realize this is about give and take for a fair deal to get done. This didn't look like a fair deal, especially after all the merger synergies UA keeps talking about. Like others said, it looks like a concessionary deal. Fuel to the fire was what the pilots got, 43% increase in pay over the life of the contract for some.....

I don't want the sky, I want to keep the job I have and continue to to enjoy coming to work at an ungodly hour to do it.
Bring back Bethune!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15455
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting Reply 42):
I guess we only use Southwest as an example when it's convenient? Very good scope and a good paying job, is that too much to ask for these days?
Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL (by MaverickM11 Mar 29 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting Reply 42):
You need happy employees and it doesn't come cheap

UA frontline staff is not winning any awards, and outsourced frontline staff at foreign carriers tend to be better. And as I said, an OO flight attendant would run circles around UA flight attendants in terms of customer service, so I don't think a better contract changes much of anything.

Quoting Reply 42):
Fuel to the fire was what the pilots got, 43% increase in pay over the life of the contract for some.....

That's where the money went. They also have lots of leverage.

Quoting Reply 42):
Last time I was on UA or any airline for that matter I didn't want somebody that's working around the aircraft I'm flying on, who is loading luggage and cargo, towing the aircraft, to be a minimum wage worker with no benefits or job security

I think there's so little correlation between safety and pay. If you looked at some of the rampers at US in PHL I don't know that I'd feel "safer" than an outsourced firm. I was a ramper for a while and it was the most fun on the job I've ever had, but I also knew that the job security at the carrier was near nil. Also rampers suddenly went from non union to union, and I can assure you there was zero change in safety.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 43):
I guess after years of cuts and concessions, and management still reaping large bonuses it must take its toll on frontline staff?

Perhaps, but I don't think they'll ever be happy.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 322
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:12 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:05 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):

You will never get anybody being 100% happy in a job
 
lucky777
Posts: 294
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:40 am

RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:50 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 41):
They don't care about the passengers as it is! I think carriers realize they can get crappy customer service from outsourced agents just as easily as in house with half the hassle.

And there you have it. You tried to hold out as long as you could with your earlier comments/critiques but you finally went ahead and bit the bullet and went all-in with that comment.

Why bother asking "Why?" when you had already made up your mind a long time ago that airport customer service workers at the Legacies were/are no better or worse than contractors. Was it really a rhetorical question on your part or were you simply trying to goad someone, a current legacy employee no doubt, into a fight?

You've already made up your mind and see no discernible difference between contract workers and actual legacy employees, which your certainly entitled to. But please spare me your feigned concern about those who still work in the industry.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15455
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:19 am

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 47):
And there you have it. You tried to hold out as long as you could with your earlier comments/critiques but you finally went ahead and bit the bullet and went all-in with that comment.

You have to admit, the link between customer service and outsourcing is comical. I'm pretty sure the DOT stats back that up.

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 47):
But please spare me your feigned concern about those who still work in the industry.

You're sensing concern where there wasn't any. I/we've all seen how this plays out many times before. I'm just confused how the IAM thinks they have any leverage in this scenario.

[Edited 2013-04-01 17:22:56]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
dlramp4life
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:23 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:27 am

So what does this mean for cities like PHX where there are PMUA employees and DGS employees working UA flights?
SEA Ramp, wettest place on earth
 
User avatar
crj900lr
Posts: 389
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:44 am

RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:07 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
I think there's so little correlation between safety and pay. If you looked at some of the rampers at US in PHL I don't know that I'd feel "safer" than an outsourced firm. I was a ramper for a while and it was the most fun on the job I've ever had, but I also knew that the job security at the carrier was near nil. Also rampers suddenly went from non union to union, and I can assure you there was zero change in safety.

You are correct there has been no improvement on safety, and I believe we may be talking about the same thing. Although it is stressed, nothing is really ever done to ensure that proper procedures are being followed. All its about is making sure you make the turn time, and then when something does happen where there is a safety issue or someone gets hurt everyone wants to play monday morning QB and says what they would have done to prevent it. How about doing something before it happens insted of after the fact.
 
lucky777
Posts: 294
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:40 am

RE: United Ground Employees Vote No!

Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:10 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 48):
You have to admit, the link between customer service and outsourcing is comical. I'm pretty sure the DOT stats back that up.

Actually, i have to admit no such thing. You are the one who has proposed that there is no discernible difference between outsourced work and those who are employed by the airline and actually have skin in the game. And feel free to find those ever-elusive DOT stats that back up what your proclaiming.

You are entitled to your opinions and i can respect that, but you stating the same argument over and over while providing no empirical evidence to back up what you claim doesn't make it fact.

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