ytib
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G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:50 pm

As a follow-up to a past thread ( G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT (by LAXintl Nov 30 2012 in Civil Aviation) ) in regards to ticket pricing to include government taxes and fees the Supreme Court declined to hear the case.

http://news.yahoo.com/supreme-court-...line-appeal-over-ad-141901439.html

[Edited 2013-04-01 11:51:07]
 
AWACSooner
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:55 pm

Good...glad to see common sense win out...but now this means that NK will come up with yet another fee on top of the one they already have to combat this...probably a "Pay for our legal fees cause we lost our case" fee.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:06 pm

Common sense is that we will have a new Secretary of Transportation soon, and many of the hostile industry policies of the past can be reviewed again.
This SoT was far out of touch with air transportation and too focused on his rail hobby and pet peeve of chasing distracted car drivers.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Cubsrule
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:51 pm

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 1):
Good...glad to see common sense win out...

Common sense (about the merits) generally has nothing to do with why the Supreme Court does or does not review cases.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MSPNWA
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:16 am

Disappointing that the court didn't hear the case. The new rule is the true deception and not fair to either the customer of airline. All this does is more easily hide taxes that the airline has no control over. The $199 fare is not $199 in the airlines' pocket.
 
ouboy79
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:37 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 6):

Disappointing that the court didn't hear the case. The new rule is the true deception and not fair to either the customer of airline. All this does is more easily hide taxes that the airline has no control over. The $199 fare is not $199 in the airlines' pocket.

There isn't anything though keeping airlines doing what NK is. Saying in big bold letters... "This is the government's cut."
 
blueflyer
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:49 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 6):
The new rule is the true deception

This is still April's Fool, right?
Democracy 2016: 3 million California votes < 100,000 Midwest votes.
 
Jamake1
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:17 am

The part that is unfair is that the airline industry was singled out here. Mobile phone carriers, rental car companies, hotels, and retailers should be subject to the same rules if full price disclosure is going to be legislated...
United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
 
AWACSooner
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:35 am

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 9):

Wholeheartedly agree...hopefully they're the next targets.
Living in Europe, I actually enjoy shopping a bit more because the price you see on the shelf already has the VAT added...so the price you see us the price you pay...easier than back in the States
 
commavia
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:55 am

It really is unfortunate the Court won't hear this case.

This regulation is truly shameful - singling out the airline industry, which is already so heavily taxed, to force carriers to display the price of their products in a given way that virtually no other industry is required to do.

And then - to make it even worse - the nakedly political nature of then effectively forcing airlines to deemphasize what portion of the price consumers pay is taxes. Only politicians and bureaucrats could come up with something that ridiculous.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:07 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
It really is unfortunate the Court won't hear this case.

Maybe so, but the Court isn't an error correction court, so if you want it to hear the case, you must also want some drastic structural changes in the way the Court arranges its docket. Are those good things?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
commavia
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:38 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
but the Court isn't an error correction court

???

The Court hears cases and determines constitutionality, right? That's what the claimants say is at stake here. No drastic change required in the jurisprudence of the Court required.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:42 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
This regulation is truly shameful - singling out the airline industry, which is already so heavily taxed, to force carriers to display the price of their products in a given way that virtually no other industry is required to do.

The singling out of the airlines does suck...and I agree that this stuff needs to be transparent in the rest of the travel/mobile/etc industries. However, this regulation is not shameful...it's a step in the right direction.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:45 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):
This is still April's Fool, right?

Most of the world was on April 2nd by then, so absolutely not. Before the change I could usually see both the airlines share and the total taxes and fees at the same time when executing a basic flight search. Now I have to dig to find that information out. Very deceptive.

Quoting commavia (Reply 9):
And then - to make it even worse - the nakedly political nature of then effectively forcing airlines to deemphasize what portion of the price consumers pay is taxes.

That's the worst part of it to me. You're hiding taxes. That's never a good thing. Then when you add the singling-out of the industry, the legislation is a joke that should be struck down.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:19 pm

One of the reasons I prefer WN over other airlines is that when I look for fares, their website gives me what it is going to cost me for the trip with no surprises. All other sites I have seen tack the taxes on after you have selected it, and likely leave out baggage fees and other gotchas. So I am a bit surprised by their bringing this suit.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:03 pm

I just like being able to count on the quoted fare being the "out the door" price for a ticket. One price including all applicable taxes & fees quoted one time.... Just like in the good ol' days.
Finally made it to an airline mecca!
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 13):
That's the worst part of it to me. You're hiding taxes. That's never a good thing. Then when you add the singling-out of the industry, the legislation is a joke that should be struck down.

   We're slowly becoming Europe.
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blueflyer
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 7):
Mobile phone carriers, rental car companies, hotels, and retailers should be subject to the same rules if full price disclosure is going to be legislated...

I agree wholeheartedly. I think all prices should be inclusive of all mandatory add-ons, whether they be state and local taxes, resort fees, facilities charges or whatever they may be called, at least as far as transactions with individual customers are concerned. I would understand taxes not being included in b2b transactions since some businesses do pay sales taxes and others don't.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 13):
Now I have to dig to find that information out. Very deceptive.

The majority of opinions filed with the court find it more deceptive not to be told upfront what the total cost is without having to do the math. The majority of consumers prefer to see a single price in front of them.
Democracy 2016: 3 million California votes < 100,000 Midwest votes.
 
blueflyer
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:26 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 16):
We're slowly becoming Europe.

Your experience of Europe is probably limited to retail transactions. Buy something more significant, and the tax will be broken down in your final invoice, but you will notice, surprise, that the price that was quoted to you was the bottom number, after taxes!

For retail transactions, I'll give you that, the ticket often doesn't include a breakdown, but the rate is the same throughout a country and their education system churns out people able to remember what their VAT rate is and figure out what 20% of the final number is...
Democracy 2016: 3 million California votes < 100,000 Midwest votes.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:19 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 18):
figure out what 20% of the final number is...

other than too much for a sales tax??
Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
 
blueflyer
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:49 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 19):
other than too much for a sales tax??

20% is actually on the low end for a Value-Added Tax rate.
http://www.ricksteves.com/plan/tips/vat-rates-europe.htm

Someone has to pay for all that free healthcare...

  
Democracy 2016: 3 million California votes < 100,000 Midwest votes.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: G4, NK & WN V DOT Denied By Supreme Court

Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:26 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
The Court hears cases and determines constitutionality, right?

Yes--if it takes the case. But the Court takes a very small percentage of the cases where one or more parties wants review. The Court takes cases only where lower courts have decided the issue differently (not so here) or where there is an "important question of federal law that has not been, but should be, settled by [the] Court." While this issue is something about which I think all of us care, I can't argue with a straight face that it's in the very small percentage of important questions of federal law that warrants Court review.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more

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