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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:39 pm

I just read that Air France pilots momentarily lost control of the aircrafts trajectory during a poorly managed go around in low visibility at CDG:s runway 08R. The aircraft involved was a Boeing 777-200. Is it just a coincindence that we see another incident induced by poor pilot performance at Air France?

We have seen a number of pilot errors on Air France, some resulting in accidents in recent years.

Do I need to worry if I go on Air France? Your thoughts? Is Air France no worse than for instance Lufthansa or do they need to shape up in AF training?
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womenbeshopping
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:42 pm

Where is the Article??? I just read that I flew a plane to the moon, but I can not find the article either. Bold Statements for sure.
 
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:44 pm

 
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting womenbeshopping (Reply 1):
Where is the Article??? I just read that I flew a plane to the moon, but I can not find the article either. Bold Statements for sure.

The article is in Flight International 2-8 april. It did not look good
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cedarjet
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:00 pm

Dear god that sounds awful. 63ft is nothing, you cross the threshold at 80ft. The 777 is very forgiving during a go-around because the pitch-power couple* is tuned out by the FBW software.

Should you be worried about flying AF? Honestly yes - three awful pilot-error** crashes in nine years (00-09) and some shocking near-misses eg an A340 stalled over the Indian Ocean in the cruise, recovered at 3,000ft (THREE THOUSAND). This goes back a long way - in the 60s they crashed six 707s (a record), five with no survivors, two in the same mountain in Guadalope, two in the same month (inc one of the Guadalope crashes). In the credits on the Fleetwood Mac album Tusk, there is a reference to "Air Chance". So even Stevie Nicks knows - avoid this airline.

* with engines mounted low, an analog aircraft wants to pitch up when power is applied; the FBW on the 777 tunes it out so the aircraft maintains it's original trajectory (even though the elevators are actually commanding quite a bit of nose-down pitch to make this possible).

** yes Conc too - they accepted a tailwind, aircaft was 9t overweight, possibly overfuelled, FE shut down an engine without telling anyone; not saying the accident wouldn't have happened but with all thus against them they never stood a chance.
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
Should you be worried about flying AF? Honestly yes - three awful pilot-error** crashes in nine years (00-09) and some shocking near-misses eg an A340 stalled over the Indian Ocean in the cruise, recovered at 3,000ft (THREE THOUSAND)

I was hoping you would say that I am out of line this time and that AF pilottraining is as safe as it could be. But somehow they seem to need to shape up in some areas. Or do they?

I think this statement from this incident looks familiar to other AF incidents and accidents in recent years:

"inadequate monitoring of flight parameters by the flight crew"
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catiii
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:11 pm

And don't forget this A340 incident last spring on approach... http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...-near-loss-control-paris-explained
 
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AirlineCritic
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):

You are being unduly harsh, IMO. For Concorde, there was a minor overweight (probably burned in taxi), and small tailwind that did not affect anything. They were victims of the aircraft design, garbage on the runway, Concorde's high speed, and the unrecoverable damage sustained by the aircraft.

Not all the crashes AF has had were pilot errors.

That being said, the AF record is still amazingly poor, particularly their "first to crash" series:

First to crash Concorde: mechanical problem.

First to crash A320: pilot error.

First to crash A330: pilot error, including substantial CRM failure (not just one pilot's problem).

First to crash A340: I forget the exact cause, but I think this too was mostly about crew problems. Luckily no victims.

Not crashed A380. Yet. Or does collision with another aircraft while taxiing at JFK count? Although I must admit that it was the other aircraft's fault.

Did they order A350?

Not crashed a B777. But apparently trying very hard.
 
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:19 pm

Do they have any safety improvement program running at Air France that anyone here knows of or do they just continue as usual?
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as739x
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:39 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 7):
Although I must admit that it was the other aircraft's fault.

Wait what, how?
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:55 pm

I remember that AF had no problem with their pilots having a glass of wine with lunch while flying. I'm not saying that the glass of wine is the problem, it's the attitude towards their pilots amongst management and amongst the pilots themselves that might need adjusting. Perhaps they feel that they are untouchable? Some would call that arrogance. If I'm not mistaken the French built a gigantic set of defenses along their border with Germany after WW1 which they felt would never be penetrated. The Germans just went through Belgium instead. Another oops moment in the history of the French Republic.
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:00 pm

I did not mean to make this an argument against french attitudes in general. I think we better stick to the aviation related side of things and AF pilot training. Do they do improvements in pilot training now?
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cubastar
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:04 pm

OK, assuming that the Avherald post mentioned in reply 2 above is accurate, and they decided to go around (even though evidently it was okay to continue the approach in "Land 2") it appears once again some pilots are not being sufficiently trained to be able to fully hand fly their aircraft out of an abnormal situation. IMHO, Automation is Wonderful, Efficient, and Economical but you still should be able demonstrate that you can control (FLY) the aircraft when all else fails.

I know that there are many differences in CAT 1/2/3/3a approaches, but when you can't handle the automation, how about reverting to the basic go around procedure? Power, rotation, positive rate, gear up, etc., etc. Surely a pilot can fly an escape procedure without autopilot and auto throttles.
 
davs5032
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:05 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
eg an A340 stalled over the Indian Ocean in the cruise, recovered at 3,000ft (THREE THOUSAND).

I haven't heard about this. Can you provide the flight # or a link to investigation transcripts? (Not questioning you, just curious for more info.)
 
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting cubastar (Reply 12):
Surely a pilot can fly an escape procedure without autopilot and auto throttles.

It has been demonstrated in some accidents in recent years that pilot traing in this area needs to be improved. Didn´t a Gulfair A320 have a go around accident that could have been avoided?
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blueflyer
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:21 pm

What I find the most interesting in the avHerald's report is this line "The French BEA released their final report in French complaining, that the cockpit voice had been deleted prior to the BEA getting access to it although the crew initially had preserved the recordings"

Who would delete the voice recording and why?
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:31 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
eg an A340 stalled over the Indian Ocean in the cruise, recovered at 3,000ft (THREE THOUSAND).
Quoting davs5032 (Reply 13):
I haven't heard about this. Can you provide the flight # or a link to investigation transcripts? (Not questioning you, just curious for more info.)

I'm not buying it, if true it would have been SPECTACULAR and a recovery from it would practically be a miracle. I stand ready to be corrected of course but if this actually happened i'm certain there would have been a lot more fuss about it. Plus no doubt such a flight would have been inevitably linked to AF447 every now & then.

Not exactly a nice read but something else i found surprising was this:

The French BEA released their final report in French complaining, that the cockpit voice had been deleted prior to the BEA getting access to it although the crew initially had preserved the recordings.

Call me crazy but you'd think in this case with what must have been reported that attention would also have been given to the CVR ? I'd assume they didn't just let it continue in service & overwrite since the BEA were apparently given acces which would make no sense if sufficient time for overwriting had already passed.
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BoeingGuy
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:39 pm

If I'm understanding the Avherald article correctly, he didn't push the TO/GA Switch, which would have automatically advanced the throttles and commanded the autopilot 15 degrees nose up.
 
motif1
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:41 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 5):
shocking near-misses eg an A340 stalled over the Indian Ocean in the cruise, recovered at 3,000ft (THREE THOUSAND).

Could you give us a link to the story? I could not find any information regarding this incident.

Thanks,

M1
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bueb0g
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
** yes Conc too - they accepted a tailwind, aircaft was 9t overweight, possibly overfuelled, FE shut down an engine without telling anyone; not saying the accident wouldn't have happened but with all thus against them they never stood a chance.

Tailwind was not a factor, read the report.

Overweight was not a factor, read the report.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
and some shocking near-misses eg an A340 stalled over the Indian Ocean in the cruise, recovered at 3,000ft (THREE THOUSAND)

Never happened.

Quoting catiii (Reply 6):
First to crash A330:

No they weren't, Airbus were the first to crash an A330.

Quoting cubastar (Reply 12):

OK, assuming that the Avherald post mentioned in reply 2 above is accurate,

It is, it's from a BEA report.

Quoting cubastar (Reply 12):
it appears once again some pilots are not being sufficiently trained to be able to fully hand fly their aircraft out of an abnormal situation.

I don't think to draw that conclusion here is fair. This wasn't a case of the crew not being to hand fly. It was a case of automation confusion; the Capt accidentally disengaged the A/T instead of pressing TOGA, and advanced the throttles manually. This meant the AP, which was still engaged, stayed in LAND mode and continued to follow the ILS rather than go around. It was more of a failure to monitor instruments properly (which seems to be a common factor in AF incidents) than bad handling - although when the AP did come off, they didn't initially pitch up as much as they should have done, due to a dual control input (take that all who say that AF 447 wouldn't have happened in a 777).

This doesn't point to a lack of manual handling skills. If you'd told either of the pilots to take off the AP, press TOGA and go around, they would have done it fine. It was the confusion with the AT and the AP that got them.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
Dear god that sounds awful. 63ft is nothing, you cross the threshold at 80ft.

You cross the threshold at 50ft, and they were still on runway track - ie, had they failed to go around, they would probably still have landed on the runway.
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:13 pm

A340 near stall at altitude (with recovery at altitude) over the Caribbean/Atlantic - http://avherald.com/h?article=44280b2a


I didn't find anything about an Air France A340 over the Indian Ocean.
 
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:14 pm

I traveled often to Europe in the early 70s. Always in F/C on passes. We got them on request and were written F/Y, meaning F/C is the choice first, then coach. One trip I was sitting in the upstairs lounge,747, and I remember the F/A coming up the stairs with a tray with a bottle of wine, 3 glasses, and snacks, and went right into the cockpit. It's funny I didn't think anything of it. After all, they're French you know.
 
tp1040
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 20):
You cross the threshold at 50ft, and they were still on runway track - ie, had they failed to go around, they would probably still have landed on the runway.

at TOGA power? Sounds like that could have presented another level cockpit confusion.
 
RJA321
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:22 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 6):
Not crashed a B777. But apparently trying very hard.
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 10):
If I'm not mistaken the French built a gigantic set of defenses along their border with Germany after WW1 which they felt would never be penetrated. The Germans just went through Belgium instead. Another oops moment in the history of the French Republic.

   It's good to have some comic relief every now and then.

In all seriousness though, maybe Air France pilots need to brush up on their training and maybe not, but then again ever since AF447, every incident involving AF has been exaggerated a little bit.
Hurry up, before we all come to our senses!
 
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seabosdca
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:25 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
eg an A340 stalled over the Indian Ocean in the cruise, recovered at 3,000ft (THREE THOUSAND).

Total misdescription of the incident, which is bad, but not quite that bad.

In cruise at FL350. A340 encounters turbulence which causes an overspeed warning. Aircraft pitches up and gains 3000 feet, slowing down to a few knots above stall speed in the process while no one is paying attention. The crew regained control at FL380.

http://avherald.com/h?article=44280b2a

[Edited 2013-04-08 12:25:35]
 
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TheRedBaron
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 21):

A340 near stall at altitude (with recovery at altitude) over the Caribbean/Atlantic - http://avherald.com/h?article=44280b2a

I read the report and also the comments, and they include one actual pax !!! they felt the drop and it states it was terrible, and felt like a roller coaster (sic).

One thing I have ofter wondered is that AF 447, everyone states that nobody felt the up first and then the drop, and in my view PAX should have felt something for sure. I guess it the nature of humans to say it was a painless death, when in reality it could have been a nightmare.

Anyways, AF is getting a really black eye on this events.

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ual747den
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:50 pm

Us Americans famously hate the French for their attitude that cannot be backed up.....!

Yes I would say that there is a problem at AF and they are OBVIOUSLY more dangerous than their counterparts. Any airline can have problems and have an accident but when the same problem repeats itself over and over there is a serious problem going on. You also have to think about all the stories we don't hear....
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HBGDS
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:00 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 8):
First to crash A330: pilot error, including substantial CRM failure (not just one pilot's problem).

You need to do your homework. Airbus lost an A330 on a test flight with an ALitalia crew on board in '94.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_Industrie_Flight_129

That said, yes, there is a pilot culture at AF that has been identified as problematic, but you don't change that overnight.
 
Caspian27
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:12 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 7):
Although I must admit that it was the other aircraft's fault.
Quoting as739x (Reply 9):
Wait what, how?

The Comair crew was most certainly NOT at fault in the JFK incident. This is like you rear-ending another car and then saying it was the other drivers fault because he stopped.
Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
 
catiii
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:12 pm

Quoting RJA321 (Reply 24):
Quoting catiii (Reply 6):
Not crashed a B777. But apparently trying very hard.
Quoting bueb0g (Reply 20):

Quoting catiii (Reply 6):
First to crash A330:

I never said either of these. My post said:

Quoting catiii (Reply 6):
And don't forget this A340 incident last spring on approach... http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...ained
 
catiii
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:15 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 27):
Yes I would say that there is a problem at AF and they are OBVIOUSLY more dangerous than their counterparts. Any airline can have problems and have an accident but when the same problem repeats itself over and over there is a serious problem going on. You also have to think about all the stories we don't hear....

So by your rationale then we also have to think about "all the stories we don't hear" at their competitors, whom they are "obviously more dangerous than."
 
bueb0g
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:26 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 30):
I never said either of these. My post said:

Sorry, my fault; accidentally clicked the button above your header, and not AirlineCritic's.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
turn720
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 20):
... ie, had they failed to go around, they would probably still have landed on the runway.

I'm not sure what you're saying but had they attempted a go around and then decide to come back down and land would have really made the evening news. But I agree with you, a go around with A/P off is a non-event or it should be a non-event.
 
turn720
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:31 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 27):
Us Americans famously hate the French for their attitude that cannot be backed up.....!

No, we do not hate the French.. We just find them irritating sometimes. I'm sure we irritate the heck out of them too.  
 
okapi
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:35 pm

Best thing would be to put AF in the EU Black List. Bashing an airline and a country is just sooo easy. That said, I find the Lufthansa public safety records well above all others. History shows us that no airline is safe. BA losing a 777 on finals at LHR, Swissair, yes! Swissair and its MD11 shortly after departure from NY.

Quoting catiii (Reply 31):

There are so many untold stories. Incidents are not accidents, thank God!
 
IBOAviator
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 2):

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=460700a7&opt=0

The incident happened in 2011.

Still, very shocking. At the very least, it's bad PR. From the article, it says the Captain didn't pull back on the joystick enough to disengage the autopilot. Like how small of a force are we talking about here. Surely if he is going around, he's gonna pull (or attempt to pull) that nose up high enough to initiate a go around? If he did in fact pull back and autopilot did not engage, did he really pull back at all to any sort of degree? Sounds very disconcerting; a seemingly experienced crew on a B772.  Wow!
Quoting bueb0g (Reply 20):


Quoting catiii (Reply 6):
First to crash A330:

No they weren't, Airbus were the first to crash an A330.

Ya, but not accidentally.  
Quoting bueb0g (Reply 20):


Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
Dear god that sounds awful. 63ft is nothing, you cross the threshold at 80ft.

You cross the threshold at 50ft, and they were still on runway track - ie, had they failed to go around, they would probably still have landed on the runway.

Seriously. Ya, granted the runway was in front of them but still... thats bad. Like Thank God they had the runway in front of them. Too bad they didn't have a Check Pilot on board or a better pilot haha

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 26):
Quoting ADent (Reply 21):

A340 near stall at altitude (with recovery at altitude) over the Caribbean/Atlantic - http://avherald.com/h?article=44280b2a

I read the report and also the comments, and they include one actual pax !!! they felt the drop and it states it was terrible, and felt like a roller coaster (sic).

IMHO, pax are always over dramatic, especially in news reports. I never really pay attention to them in news reports because they are always over dramatic, IMO.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 7):
Did they order A350?

Not crashed a B777. But apparently trying very hard.

Haha, definitely made my day LMFAO!!  
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sandyb123
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:39 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):
he didn't push the TO/GA Switch

This does sound worrying and not standard ops(?), however the yoke input should have been enough but it initially wasn't pronounced enough for the aircraft to recognise it as manual intervention.

There seems to be a theme here. Multiple crew members advising / doing different things. The series of events here seem to focus on confusion in the cockpit as to what to do and even who was in charge. Remove any visual reference (ala AF447) and things get confusing fast. Also like AF447, more than one pilot put in an input to the flight.

Quoting ADent (Reply 21):
A340 near stall at altitude (with recovery at altitude) over the Caribbean/Atlantic
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
eg an A340 stalled over the Indian Ocean in the cruise, recovered at 3,000ft (THREE THOUSAND)

I think if an aircraft had come within 3000ft of the deck we'd have heard a lot more about it (like headline on every news network in the world). Still, loss of control again and unexpectedly gaining 3000ft sounds scary. I noticed that a passenger quoted on AVherald saying that it was terrifying.

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cuban8
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:39 pm

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 22):
One trip I was sitting in the upstairs lounge,747, and I remember the F/A coming up the stairs with a tray with a bottle of wine, 3 glasses, and snacks, and went right into the cockpit. It's funny I didn't think anything of it. After all, they're French you know.
Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 27):
Us Americans famously hate the French for their attitude that cannot be backed up.....!

Well, that's quite amusing to hear from our American posters. When it comes to attitude and alcohol; for some reason it has mostly been American pilot's having a few too many pints before going to flights who has made it to the headlines.

Quoting catiii (Reply 31):
So by your rationale then we also have to think about "all the stories we don't hear" at their competitors, whom they are "obviously more dangerous than."

(Un)fortunately there is not enough FAA, TSA, CIA, NSA and FBI to control the background of these AF-pilots.   

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 20):
You cross the threshold at 50ft, and they were still on runway track - ie, had they failed to go around, they would probably still have landed on the runway.

Yes, or possibly a touch and go if still aligned with the runway and TOGA thrust.

Quoting HBGDS (Reply 28):
That said, yes, there is a pilot culture at AF that has been identified as problematic, but you don't change that overnight.

The only correct and un-biased post so far which clearly explains the situation AF is in.   
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Kaiarahi
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:43 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 26):
everyone states that nobody felt the up first and then the drop, and in my view PAX should have felt something for sure

Ever been in an elevator?

Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 29):
The Comair crew was most certainly NOT at fault in the JFK incident.

Maybe wait until the NTSB report? What we do know is that Comair had not cleared the taxiway and had not advised ground that they were not clear. There's no way an A380 crew can tell that a tail is hanging 6 feet over the taxiway.
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:49 pm

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 10):
If I'm not mistaken the French built a gigantic set of defenses along their border with Germany after WW1 which they felt would never be penetrated. The Germans just went through Belgium instead. Another oops moment in the history of the French Republic.

That would be the Maginot Line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_line   

Big oops moment, indeed, although to be fair to the French every country has had one or two of those moments, at least...  
 
cubastar
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:50 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 20):
This doesn't point to a lack of manual handling skills. If you'd told either of the pilots to take off the AP, press TOGA and go around, they would have done it fine. It was the confusion with the AT and the AP that got them.

Actually, I think that it does. Confusion should not come into play during a Cat III approach. Everything is set up prior to final approach fix. Constant monitoring from that point is critical for a safe approach and landing. The aircraft is flying itself and everyone in the cockpit has the duty to be constantly monitoring. At the time of something not being just right, i.e the drop out of one autopilot computer and going to "Land 2", monitoring pilots call this out and announce to all and they continue the approach. They may have become confused, BUT they should NOT have been confused. That's what they were monitoring for. However, the captain elected to go around but made a mistake and did not hit TOGA. He pushed the throttles up manually and the speed picked up to 200+ knots but the autopilot continued its descent. Rapidly, they were approaching a very dangerous situation and both pulled back on the yokes thereby taking the autopilot out of the picture. Entirely too much "confusion" and it came close to being disastrous.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 20):
You cross the threshold at 50ft, and they were still on runway track - ie, had they failed to go around, they would probably still have landed on the runway.

"Probably" has no meaning in this situation at this altitude, this speed, and all of the confusion in the cockpit. They were performing an approach to minimums and the only decision at this point is to "power up, rotate and get the heck out of Dodge" and THAT would necessitate hand-flying out of the situation.
 
cubastar
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:51 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 20):
This doesn't point to a lack of manual handling skills. If you'd told either of the pilots to take off the AP, press TOGA and go around, they would have done it fine. It was the confusion with the AT and the AP that got them.

Actually, I think that it does. Confusion should not come into play during a Cat III approach. Everything is set up prior to final approach fix. Constant monitoring from that point is critical for a safe approach and landing. The aircraft is flying itself and everyone in the cockpit has the duty to be constantly monitoring. At the time of something not being just right, i.e the drop out of one autopilot computer and going to "Land 2", monitoring pilots call this out and announce to all and they continue the approach. They may have become confused, BUT they should NOT have been confused. That's what they were monitoring for. However, the captain elected to go around but made a mistake and did not hit TOGA. He pushed the throttles up manually and the speed picked up to 200+ knots but the autopilot continued its descent. Rapidly, they were approaching a very dangerous situation and both pulled back on the yokes thereby taking the autopilot out of the picture. Entirely too much "confusion" and it came close to being disastrous.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 20):
You cross the threshold at 50ft, and they were still on runway track - ie, had they failed to go around, they would probably still have landed on the runway.

"Probably" has no meaning in this situation at this altitude, this speed, and all of the confusion in the cockpit. They were performing an approach to minimums and the only decision at this point is to "power up, rotate and get the heck out of Dodge" and THAT would necessitate hand-flying out of the situation.
 
N505fx
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:53 pm

Quoting okapi (Reply 34):
BA losing a 777 on finals at LHR, Swissair, yes! Swissair and its MD11 shortly after departure from NY.

I think both of those quoted instances show incredible pilot aptitude, sort of the inverse of what you are implying, correct?
 
IBOAviator
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 20):
You cross the threshold at 50ft, and they were still on runway track - ie, had they failed to go around, they would probably still have landed on the runway.

"Probably" has no meaning in this situation at this altitude, this speed, and all of the confusion in the cockpit. They were performing an approach to minimums and the only decision at this point is to "power up, rotate and get the heck out of Dodge" and THAT would necessitate hand-flying out of the situation.
[/quote]

   Exactly! Like I guess I am very confused but for an experienced crew, isn't performing a go-around fairly non-complex? Apply full power and get out of there?!

I'd be curious to hear the ATC transmissions during the subsequent climb out. You can learn a lot just by listening to their voices and tone.

IBOA
Keep Calm and Go Around!
 
93Sierra
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:12 pm

The Ba 777 and Swiss accident are not the same as these af idiots
 
Pihero
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:17 pm

This accident has a lot less due to training than CRM /FH and Air France is as a matter of fact a great deal more critical than the BEA.
Why !
There were at least two serious breaches of SOPs :

1/- The observer had no right to interfere with that crew by calling :" Alarm !". That simple call introduced a second breach of SOPs, this time from the F/O :
2/- The "Go Around !:" call wasn't his to say, as he wasn't PF any more since they agreed and started an autoland ( a bit of a brain fart, here )
Then we have the results of the *surprise factor * :

3/- the captain - PF, then - was completely caught by the call and reacted quickly, too quickly : he mistook the A/T buttons for the GA pallets, and though he set GA thrust, he didn't change the mode from autoland to GoAround ! the A/P was still tracking the ILS and even worse, the flight directors remained on loc/gs.
I personally have noticed that in a quickly evolving situation, pilots tend to follow the FD bars, thinking that their setting is correct ; so here we have a PF thinking he's in a goAround manoeuvre and two other guys, one shouting "Pitch......Pitch ! " and the other bent on pulling on the control column to reach a*normal* attitude for a goAround.

4/- It was only when the captain saw the ground that his course of action melded with the F/O's and rotation was achieved.

In a Cat II or III approach, with a prepared crew, the procedure is an automatic Go Around : Press the pallets,; see the throttles move to full thrust and the A/P FD change to Go Around mode. Just ask for flaps and an FMA reading, confirm acceleration altitude, and goAround altitude and there you go, you are OK.

A comment from one 'Bus driver :
This example would have been very difficult to replicate on a 'BUS :
1/- Pushing the throttles to the stop gives you the automatic GoAround you're looking for
2/- The F/O whop had a clearer strategy than the captain could have just taken the priority button and locked the captain out... no fighting over the control column
3/- If you need an A/P disconnect, the same button would have achieved it... or a force of less than 10 pouns on the sidestick would have done the same thing.

Funny how all the linked yokes and moving throttles can fail you !
Contrail designer
 
aaexecplat
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 19):
You cross the threshold at 50ft, and they were still on runway track - ie, had they failed to go around, they would probably still have landed on the runway.

Right...at 2 degrees nose down, 180+ knots, and flaps 20. What are you smoking? In all probability, they would have crashed the airplane if they had not succeeded with the go around...Do you have any idea what the V-speed likely was at that speed and attitude?
 
BoeingGuy
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:30 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 36):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):
he didn't push the TO/GA Switch

This does sound worrying and not standard ops(?), however the yoke input should have been enough but it initially wasn't pronounced enough for the aircraft to recognise it as manual intervention.

The 777 doesn't have manual intervention. It will disconnect the Autopilot if you apply enough force on the column or wheel (I forget the exact amount of force, something like 30 pounds). You basically almost have to give it a jerk.

It's not like non-FBW Boeing airplanes where the autopilot servos will cam-out of you override the autopilot, but will not disconnect it.
 
aaexecplat
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:31 pm

BTW...my personal opinion is that where there is smoke, there is fire. Too many incidents, too many accidents, and too many pilot error matters. I would not fly AF until they at least acknowledge they have a problem and make a serious pledge to fix their training and cockpit culture.
 
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longhauler
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AF Pilots Lose Control Of 777 At Go Around

Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:43 pm

Quoting IBOAviator (Reply 35):
Ya, but not accidentally.

Ok, I'll bite ... how do you crash an airplane, but not accidentally?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 45):
1/- Pushing the throttles to the stop gives you the automatic GoAround you're looking for

I am wondering if this Captain didn't have a lot of Airbus time before the Boeing. Not that far a stretch at Air France ... then in a moment of quick reaction, he reverted to his Airbus motor memory.

I wonder, because when going from the A320 to the B767, on my first go-around in the simulator, that is exactly what I did! Instead of pressing either of the go-around switches, I pushed the thrust levers to TOGA ... just like an Airbus. Man, I'll tell you it was ugly, and I'll bet the instructor is still laughing.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!

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