emrecan
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TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:11 pm

A new narrowbody Boeing order from TK: (thanks to "TK787" for the summary)

http://www.turkishairlines.com/tr-tr...kurumsal/yatirimci-iliskileri/2013

TK orders 70+25 options of mix of 737s
20 x 738s, 65 x 738Max, 10 x 739Max
Deliveries between 2016-2021
 
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scbriml
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:15 pm

Nice order for Boeing. So TK maintains its mix of narrowbody fleet for the foreseeable future.
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TK787
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:25 pm

Someone PLEASE start building a new airport at IST!!!!

As it stands now; TK's backlog;
17 x 333, 15 x 77W, 84 x 738 variants, 82 x 321 variants, 2 x 332F and bunch of options.


Below; (321N are a mix of 320/321-2/321N and 738M a mix of 738, 738M and 739M)

2013- 2 x A333, 6 x 738, 7 x 321, 1 x332F, (also leased 3 x 77W, 4 x 320)
2014- 4 x 333, 3 x 77W, 10 X 738
2015- 13 x 321N, 6 x 333, 7 x 77W
2016- 14 x 321N, 20 x 738M, 5 x 333, 5 x 77W
2017- 6 x 321N, 5 x 77W
2018- 27 x 321N, 20 x 738M
2019- 25 x 321N, 15 x 738M
2020- 32 x 321N, 30 x 738M
2021- 10 x 738M

With this, we will see the 3 x 734 fleet leave, and older 738, 737-700s, A320s and 343's leave the fleet.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 2):
Someone PLEASE start building a new airport at IST!!!!

A new airport should be ready in 2015.
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sirtoby
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:35 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
A new airport should be ready in 2015.

I don't think that anyone really believes the new airport is ready by 2015. Realistically it should open early enough to be fully operational when the Olympic Games might be held in Istanbul in 2020.
 
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Stitch
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:49 pm

I expected it to happen, but not within weeks of their A320 order.
 
chiad
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:51 pm

Nice order, especially for the MAX which should take its backlog to around 1250 unites.
 
na
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:58 pm

Where is the VLA order?
 
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scbriml
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:03 pm

Quoting na (Reply 7):
Where is the VLA order?

June is not far away.  
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KarelXWB
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:17 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
I expected it to happen, but not within weeks of their A320 order.

It was been rumoured that a 737 order would come "soon".
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lightsaber
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:21 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 2):

Someone PLEASE start building a new airport at IST!!!!

Agreed. Has a bulldozer started at the site? How about roads.

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 4):
I don't think that anyone really believes the new airport is ready by 2015. Realistically it should open early enough to be fully operational when the Olympic Games might be held in Istanbul in 2020.

Sadly, you speak the truth. The airport will happen, it is a question of when and I agree you have bounded the problem.


Lightsaber
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KarelXWB
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:26 pm

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 4):
I don't think that anyone really believes the new airport is ready by 2015. Realistically it should open early enough to be fully operational when the Olympic Games might be held in Istanbul in 2020.

Ok, that is new to me. Always thought the new airport would open in 2015.
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LLA001
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:29 pm

so far TK has gone bott companies for narrow and wide bodies, do you think there is a chance they will do the same for VLA ?

it would be cool to see both A380 and B748 in TK livery,
 
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frigatebird
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:36 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 8):
Quoting na (Reply 7):Where is the VLA order?
June is not far away.

The new airport apparently is. Hopefully they'll split the VLA order as well, both 748i's and A380s   

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 9):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):I expected it to happen, but not within weeks of their A320 order.
It was been rumoured that a 737 order would come "soon".

Interestingly, TK keeps buying from both Boeing and Airbus. Is this to keep both manufacturers happy ('political') or because they don't want to have all their eggs in one basket?

I wonder if they will order both A350 and 787 as well.
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TK787
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:41 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
Agreed. Has a bulldozer started at the site? How about roads.

AFAIK, tender is still out.
One estimate was calling out for 2000 trucks to do 5 years of work to level the area. Someone correct me on this.
They started the work on the 3rd Bosporus bridge which should link the airport to major arteries. It is to be completed in 3 years.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:42 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 11):
Ok, that is new to me. Always thought the new airport would open in 2015.

That is the broadcast date. Airports rarely open on time and this project has its own personality that is certain to add delay. It will open before the Olympics, but I doubt anyone who has looked into the project thinks 2015 is realistic. The roads aren't done!
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northstar80
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:42 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 13):
Interestingly, TK keeps buying from both Boeing and Airbus. Is this to keep both manufacturers happy ('political') or because they don't want to have all their eggs in one basket?

if it were political, they would have bought a single type!

it is because they can utilize both types very efficiently for routes. both the 737s and the 320s have different distinct missions in TK.

when you grow to this size, you no longer have advantage of having a single type, at more than 50 units per type, it doesnt matter if another type of 50, or 100 of the same type from cost point of view (spares, crew, etc.)
 
CXfirst
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:46 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 11):
Ok, that is new to me. Always thought the new airport would open in 2015.

Well, that's the year I've heard as well, but as others have said, it is not realistic to have a mega airport built from scratch with things like linked roads in just 2 years, when nothing really has happened yet. I could believe a stage one opening at the end of 2016, with further stages finishing towards 2020, but even then, they better get started.

As for the Boeing order, I am a bit surprised how quick this has come after the Airbus order, and still question the need for a mixed narrowbody fleet. Although, due to the size of each fleet, the added cost of maintenance, separate crews, and so on, probably isn't that much.

-CXfirst
 
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TK787
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:51 pm

I think there is about zero percent chance of TK ordering the 748. Even it was given at huge discounts. What would 748 give TK that 77W couldn't? 380 on the other hand is a prestige aircraft and will eventually be in TK colors.

About the 350/787; I only see the bigger 350s to be in TK's sight. Just look at TK's fleet, do you see anything smaller than 738 in the near future? TK is going for 321Ns for NB and 333/77W for WB and 738M for domestic and long/thin routes. I can see 350 to replace 332/333/343 one day and possible 77X/380 in the future.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:52 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 17):
As for the Boeing order, I am a bit surprised how quick this has come after the Airbus order, and still question the need for a mixed narrowbody fleet. Although, due to the size of each fleet, the added cost of maintenance, separate crews, and so on, probably isn't that much.

TK is a fast growing airline and they need a lot of new aircraft for expansion. There is no way that Airbus can deliver another 100 A320 aircraft before the end of the decade so splitting the order is a logical step to get more aircraft asap.
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TK787
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:58 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 19):
There is no way that Airbus can deliver another 100 A320 aircraft before the end of the decade so splitting the order is a logical step to get more aircraft asap.

Exactly!

By the way, sometime in the near future, TK will no longer have 734/737-700/319/320 size aircraft.
Now that 77W/333 and 321N/737M orders are up, the next thing we can look forward to is a 100-130 seat regional jet order.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 18):
I think there is about zero percent chance of TK ordering the 748. Even it was given at huge discounts. What would 748 give TK that 77W couldn't? 380 on the other hand is a prestige aircraft and will eventually be in TK colors.

Rumours about TK ordering some VLA's goes back to 2008 or so. And every year we hear the same outcome: "we don't need a VLA". Time will tell but I won't be surprised to see no VLA order this year.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 18):
About the 350/787; I only see the bigger 350s to be in TK's sight. Just look at TK's fleet, do you see anything smaller than 738 in the near future? TK is going for 321Ns for NB and 333/77W for WB and 738M for domestic and long/thin routes. I can see 350 to replace 332/333/343 one day and possible 77X/380 in the future.

I doubt if we will see any 787 and/or A350 orders in the near future with all those A330 and 777 aircraft on order.
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sirtoby
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:02 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 20):
Now that 77W/333 and 321N/737M orders are up, the next thing we can look forward to is a 100-130 seat regional jet order.

I really hope for a CS300 order here!
 
ETinCaribe
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:03 pm

Congrats to both TK and Boeing!!!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 19):
TK is a fast growing airline and they need a lot of new aircraft for expansion. There is no way that Airbus can deliver another 100 A320 aircraft before the end of the decade so splitting the order is a logical step to get more aircraft asap.

   I agree, slots availability is as much a factor as anything else from what I can gather.

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 16):
it is because they can utilize both types very efficiently for routes. both the 737s and the 320s have different distinct missions in TK.

How much different would the missions b/w the two types be? Honest question since I don't see it that way.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:03 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 20):
the next thing we can look forward to is a 100-130 seat regional jet order.

CSeries maybe?  
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na
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:06 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 13):
The new airport apparently is. Hopefully they'll split the VLA order as well, both 748i's and A380s   

Sadly unlikely. I´d really like to see that, 6 of each or so. I guess Boeing wouldnt be too upset if they convert some of the outstanding 77W orders as well.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 18):
I think there is about zero percent chance of TK ordering the 748.

You havent noticed the considerable size difference between both?

Quoting TK787 (Reply 18):
Even it was given at huge discounts. What would 748 give TK that 77W couldn't?

You havent flown on the 748I yet apparently, I can tell you its the vastly better plane for the passenger, especially for the high-yield passenger.
 
MeCe
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:12 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 14):




I heard that there are much bigger problems than levelling. I know that area; soil is not stable to build an airport. Extensive (expensive of course) process will be required... But typical Turkish mandate says " one of hero ( babayiğit) will come and built this" I am afraid they will switch construction area again...
 
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Stitch
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:12 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 18):
What would 748 give TK that 77W couldn't?

50-75 more seats?



Quoting TK787 (Reply 18):
About the 350/787; I only see the bigger 350s to be in TK's sight.

If Boeing can get a 7000nm nominal range from the 787-10, it could reach all of North America, Europe, Africa, Asia and most of South America from IST. Even at 6000nm (to account for cargo), most of the world is within range. The A350-900 gives them Australia, but they can get that with the A350-1000, as well.

So I'd not be surprised if they went with the 787-10 and A350-1000 as their widebodies (along with the A380-800).

[Edited 2013-04-09 07:14:19]
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 23):
I agree, slots availability is as much a factor as anything else from what I can gather.

Besides the delivery slots it is also a good step to not depend on 1 aircraft manufacturer I think.
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airbazar
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:29 pm

Quoting na (Reply 25):
You havent flown on the 748I yet apparently, I can tell you its the vastly better plane for the passenger, especially for the high-yield passenger.

May be vastly better for the passenger but it's not for the airline. There's a reason the 748i is not selling: It's because the 77W can perform probably 95% of its missions more efficiently. The 77W has about the same CASM as the 748i but with greater cargo revenue space. It's also a twin which has its own inherent savings. TK would be better off being the launch customer for the 777X rather than ordering the 748i.
 
theaviator380
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:33 pm

I doubt TK would order 380 or 747-8, and I think they don't need it either. Most of the destinations TK can serve using mix of 738/320/321 and rest of 777 or 330 they have for long haul network. At the most they might need to order 787/350.
 
LAXintl
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:42 pm

Like some of us said, a Boeing 737 order was around the corner as well when they announced the A320NEO order.  
TK's narrow body need is about 250 airframes


Regarding the new airport - final tender bids are due on May 3rd.
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frigatebird
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
Quoting TK787 (Reply 18):What would 748 give TK that 77W couldn't?
50-75 more seats?

      TK's 77W's are 9 abreast in Y IIRC, so 747-8i's should offer a decent increase in capacity (Without first class, I believe the A380 might even be a bit too large for TK - for now).

Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
So I'd not be surprised if they went with the 787-10 and A350-1000 as their widebodies (along with the A380-800).

But these would be the same capacity as their recently ordered A333's and 77W's. Could be an advantage of course, but the A359 may fill the gap between these two.
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na
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:47 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
TK would be better off being the launch customer for the 777X rather than ordering the 748i.

If they can wait 7 years or more... And if they can wait, why died they bother to order the 77W recently which will be old metal when the X comes.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
The 77W has about the same CASM as the 748i but with greater cargo revenue space.

... and 50 or more seats less. Cargo isnt all on a passenger plane. Accept there is a considerable size difference between both instead of joining the miserable choir of 748I downwriters.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:56 pm

And here is the Boeing press release:
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2646
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TK787
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:17 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 21):
Rumours about TK ordering some VLA's goes back to 2008 or so.

Ha ha... How about 787/350? Look at my username. I joined a.net 7 years ago 
Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 23):
How much different would the missions b/w the two types be?

TK's latest NB order is mainly split between 738M from B, and 321N from A. (with tiny numbers of other sub-types)
 
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:25 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 34):

And here is the Boeing press release:
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2646

I actually thought this was a firm order, its Commitment at the moment.
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KarelXWB
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:34 pm

Both Airbus and Boeing orders are commitments. They will firm it later.

[Edited 2013-04-09 08:35:22]
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neutronstar73
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:36 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 18):
What would 748 give TK that 77W couldn't? 380 on the other hand is a prestige aircraft and will eventually be in TK colors.

Here we go again with the "prestige" aircraft nonsense. I guess Kingfisher is a "prestige" airline, since they ordered it and if Turkish orders the 748i, they are more prestigious than Turkish.
 
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:52 pm

TK is a real sleeper of an airline. It's way bigger already than many realise and it's a real competitor, not only to European airlines but also the big 3 in the Gulf.

It has advantages that EK, EY and QF, even SQ don't; Turkey has a huge tourism industry as well as a very large, (and growing), manufacturing sector.

Because of their significant O&D traffic, bilaterals might be easier to get and amend than with primarily 'transfer' airports.

I see huge things in the future for TK.
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EPA001
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:05 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 21):
I doubt if we will see any 787 and/or A350 orders in the near future with all those A330 and 777 aircraft on order.

Well, I do not expect TK to order them anytime soon, but they have surprised us before. So maybe they will do us this favor again.  .

Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
So I'd not be surprised if they went with the 787-10 and A350-1000 as their wide-bodies (along with the A380-800).

See above. I do not expect them to order a B787-10 or A350-1000 anytime soon. They still have so many A330's and B777's coming. They just ordered those planes so recently.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 37):
Both Airbus and Boeing orders are commitments. They will firm it later.

Probably at "some" yearly air show, so this time it should be in Paris.  .

Quoting chiad (Reply 6):
Nice order, especially for the MAX which should take its backlog to around 1250 unites.

It is a nice order. And of course congratulations are in place to all parties involved in this deal.  champagne 

[Edited 2013-04-09 09:07:14]
 
airbazar
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:13 pm

Quoting na (Reply 33):
... and 50 or more seats less. Cargo isnt all on a passenger plane. Accept there is a considerable size difference between both instead of joining the miserable choir of 748I downwriters.

More seats and yet the same CASM. And that's assuming TK's 77W's remain at 9 abreast.
It's not a "miserable choir". It's reality. I love the 747 as much as anyone but sentiment doesn't make money. Only 3 customers so far and the largest one doesn't even operate the 77W. On the flip side, how many 77W operators are there? That's a pretty good indication that airlines prefer the 77W over the 748I.
 
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Stitch
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
So I'd not be surprised if they went with the 787-10 and A350-1000 as their widebodies (along with the A380-800).
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 32):
But these would be the same capacity as their recently ordered A333's and 77W's. Could be an advantage of course, but the A359 may fill the gap between these two.

The 787-10 is larger than the A330-300 and the A350-900.



Quoting EPA001 (Reply 40):
See above. I do not expect them to order a B787-10 or A350-1000 anytime soon. They still have so many A330's and B777's coming. They just ordered those planes so recently.

Indeed. But since folks were speculating.  
 
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kanban
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:27 pm

Quoting MeCe (Reply 26):
I heard that there are much bigger problems than levelling. I know that area; soil is not stable to build an airport. Extensive (expensive of course) process will be required... But typical Turkish mandate says " one of hero ( babayiğit) will come and built this" I am afraid they will switch construction area again...

to say nothing of archeological finds no matter where they dig whether it's for roads, bridge supports, or fill for the runways..
 
neutronstar73
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 40):
See above. I do not expect them to order a B787-10 or A350-1000 anytime soon. They still have so many A330's and B777's coming. They just ordered those planes so recently.

You are 100% dead on. With so many jets arriving, why would they order either 787 or A350? Their plate is likely full with the 330 and 777. Plenty of aircraft as far as I can see. And I seriously question why order a VLA at this point, too.
 
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:36 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 41):
More seats and yet the same CASM.

Plus higher operating costs and higher maintenance costs (4 vs 2 engines). I'm not saying the 747 is a bad aircraft (and the performance will get a bit better next year) but for most of the airlines the 77W can do the job too. That has nothing to do with down writing, it's reality.
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
A new airport should be ready in 2015.

Construction in the Istanbul area is just too difficult for that to happen - even if the built in the water like Kansai. It'll get built, but 2015 is too ambitious a target.

Quoting na (Reply 33):
Cargo isnt all on a passenger plane.

One thing you don't hear much about the 77W but which really deserves to be said - it's a cargo monster.
 
ETinCaribe
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:10 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 28):
Besides the delivery slots it is also a good step to not depend on 1 aircraft manufacturer I think.

The contrarian view: WN and others who use 100s of the same type. That is why IMHO availability was the PRIMARY driver. TK will also figure at the top of the OEM list of attractive customer.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 35):
TK's latest NB order is mainly split between 738M from B, and 321N from A. (with tiny numbers of other sub-types)

Sure, I know that, but my question was whether the two types are going to be used on different missions, as Northstar80 stated:

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 16):
both the 737s and the 320s have different distinct missions in TK

but I fail to see how different the missions for the two types will be.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 39):
It has advantages that EK, EY and QF, even SQ don't; Turkey has a huge tourism industry as well as a very large, (and growing), manufacturing sector.

And a large domestic market... Turkish businesses are also challenging China and India in Emerging countries which indirectly benefits TK.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:49 pm

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 47):
The contrarian view: WN and others who use 100s of the same type. That is why IMHO availability was the PRIMARY driver. TK will also figure at the top of the OEM list of attractive customer.

I think the more responsible airlines will be less influenced by politics and go with what makes economic sense. For these big orders, availability will be a more important consideration than brand.

Any airline that orders both 738's and a320's, has reasons other than having a favourite brand for buying. For all intents and purposes, these planes might as well be twins, for their lack of practical differences.
What the...?
 
leftyboarder
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RE: TK Orders 95 Boeing 737s

Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:09 pm

In fact for TK they have distinct missions, with A320 series doing mostly international and longer European flights and 737s doing domestic runs and shorter European flights. Of course exceptions exist and substitutions occur but there is an implied mission type for each of the two series.

Oh, and congrats to TK and Boeing  

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