drgmobile
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Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:37 pm

The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Porter could announce a C-Series order as early tomorrow. The aircraft can NOT land at Billy Bishop user current rules. Community opposition would be fierce to any change in the rules.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...rter-cseries-idUSL3N0CW1GI20130409
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:44 pm

So twelve firm orders. This is good news. Why now and not at the Paris Airshow?


Lightsaber
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Noise
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:44 pm

Is this a joke? Or does this mean we're actually going to see Porter expand outside of their home base of YTZ?

If this is true, Porter is going to be capable of offering transcontinental flights out of pretty much any Canadians city they already serve. This can be very very interesting...an airline catering to the business community in a way that goes head-to-head with Air Canada and in a way that frankly WestJet can't match.
 
ytz
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:45 pm

Still stunned at the news.

It's not just community opposition to noise (which is really retrograde to be honest). It's also a question of how exactly can Porter operate this aircraft from the Island. Short runways will either prohibit or limit utility of this aircraft from the Island.

So I wonder is Deluce going to push to extend the runway and lift the opposition to "jets" (a good case can be made that the CS100 is as quiet as the Q400)? Or is the plan to base these aircraft elsewhere?
 
Noise
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:46 pm

Porter will be forced to use a hub other than YTZ in this case. YYZ? YOW? Expansion out west?
 
drgmobile
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:09 pm

Canada has a history of third airlines entering the main business markets followed by a slug fest. One of the articles mentions US destinations but presumably these would need domestic feed.

A conspiracy theorist might speculate that this could be Deluce's way of adding some pressure to the competition to tip the scales toward being bought out,
 
queb
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:39 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 3):
Short runways will either prohibit or limit utility of this aircraft from the Island.

Per Cseries brochure page 29 (thanks to AviaPoncho   ) :

http://media.bombardiercms.com/cseri...series_download_high_en_032c3a.pdf

http://i70.servimg.com/u/f70/17/03/84/59/cserie14.jpg
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:02 pm

It'll be interesting to see what comes of this, but, just for arguments sake, if they do decided to run these out of YTZ, is there sufficient ramp space availible for these aircraft?
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Bobloblaw
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:05 pm

Quoting YTZ" class="quote" target="_blank">YTZ (Reply 3):
It's not just community opposition to noise (which is really retrograde to be honest). It's also a question of how exactly can Porter operate this aircraft from the Island. Short runways will either prohibit or limit utility of this aircraft from the Island.

Obviously they aren't going to operate these from YTZ. This is very risky especially given Porter isn't a LCC.
 
hoons90
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:18 pm

I've heard YHZ as a possible base for expansion.

I've seen a model of a C-series aircraft in Porter livery at one of their offices at YTZ before. That was back in early 2011.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:18 pm

De rien Queb

I was looking at LCY but I failed

Anyway, the CS100 will be at 1200-1500 Nm from YTZ seems enough for florida and gulf od mexico coast

[Edited 2013-04-09 08:19:21]
 
StarAC17
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:20 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 6):
Per Cseries brochure page 29 (thanks to AviaPoncho   ) :

Moot point because as of right now Jets of any kind are banned out of YTZ, that has to change first.
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queb
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:29 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 11):
Moot point because as of right now Jets of any kind are banned out of YTZ, that has to change first.

Indeed, but if Porter intends to operate the CS100 from Bishop Airport, they probably already approached a few months ago the City of Toronto, the port and the federal government to change the tripartite agreement.

It's surely not a coincidence if Bombardier says the CS100 can take off in 1219 meters, which is exactly the same length of the YTZ runway.
 
bakersdozen
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:40 pm

Was there not speculation from Porter a few months ago (Dec./Jan?) of expanding out west... maybe it is NOT a coincidence that they appear to have expressed interest to Bombardier at the same time (article says Dec.).

Speculation: Is there a plan in the works for flights to YVR and YYC from Top
 
rampbro
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:53 pm

This seems like a terrible idea. My guess is they're looking for some good press in YUL, maybe their loads have been flagging a bit.

Supposing this story checks out, PD will get run ragged trying to attract CNX traffic through their little commuter terminal. They'll have to move to Pearson and slug it out with the big guys, or accept their fate as a Toronto O&D carrier.

What Canada needs in terms of air travel is not another Toronto-centric carrier, it needs more long/thin routes connecting secondary markets without the need to go into Toronto.
 
flyyul
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:57 pm

This won't be Toronto centric. I fully expect Porter to base these aircraft in Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax etc
 
voodoo
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 15):
This won't be Toronto centric. I fully expect Porter to base these aircraft in Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax etc

Yup. Seems like a plan to me ... YTZ Q400s will take care of their Toronto traffic. C-series based outside Toronto will bypass the hub hassle altogether with particular advantages against both AC and WJ aircraft.
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Noise
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:24 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 15):
This won't be Toronto centric. I fully expect Porter to base these aircraft in Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax etc

What I was thinking. Targeting premium passengers traveling between YHZ, YUL, YYT, Top
 
aircanadaa330
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 15):
This won't be Toronto centric. I fully expect Porter to base these aircraft in Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax etc

Agreed.

I would love to see a third airline here in Canada. Gives more options to the public.

Either way...congrads to BBD and Porter....if its true!
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yyz717
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting YTZ" class="quote" target="_blank">Reply 3):
Still stunned at the news.

Same. Porter has been hinting at another order, I assumed it would be more Q400's.

Quoting YTZ" class="quote" target="_blank">Reply 3):
It's not just community opposition to noise (which is really retrograde to be honest).

It's very retrograde.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 11):
Moot point because as of right now Jets of any kind are banned out of
Quoting queb (Reply 12):
Indeed, but if Porter intends to operate the CS100 from Bishop Airport, they probably already approached a few months ago the City of Toronto, the port and the federal government to change the tripartite agreement.

Agreed. I could see a limited number of slot "exceptions" for the CS100 to start. There will be controversy   but it will pass in time. Medivac flights are allowed now. Falcon 10's are regular visitors.


Quoting bakersdozen (Reply 13):
Was there not speculation from Porter a few months ago (Dec./Jan?) of expanding out west...

Yes. YWG was hinted at in an interview with the Globe and Mail a few weeks ago. Porter has its eye on the high regional yields in Western Canada.





[Edited 2013-04-09 10:13:21]
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:15 pm

Two things to note here:

1. The runway is, as other posters have noted, more than adequate for Porters operations. Although it may seem surprising given the size difference, the CS100 has better short field performance than the Q400.

2. The CS100 is, by current known specifications, expected to be quieter than both the Q400 and the ATR 72-600. Off the top of my head the CS100 is forecast to come in at 255 EPNdB and the ATR is assessed at 255.3 EPNdB. The Q400 is louder still.

The C Series is a real game changer.


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YYZYYT
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:18 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 12):
Indeed, but if Porter intends to operate the CS100 from Bishop Airport, they probably already approached a few months ago the City of Toronto, the port and the federal government to change the tripartite agreement.

Interesting. Allow me to play Devil's advocate:

When Porter was first proposed, and during the turbulent times pre-launch, the political climate was very different.

Then, the climate was decidedly chilly for Porter: Miller in City Hall, the Liberals in Ottawa (playing to a strong Toronto constituency in a minority Parliament).

Now: Ford at City Hall, and Harper in Ottawa (who will never get the votes of the downtown Toronto core, and who knows it). A much more fertile ground for the argument tat Toronto will be better off with expanded service from the airport.

Along with the different political climate, add into the mix airport improvements (which include noise barriers) and the fact that the C-Series is said to be more quiet than the Dash 8-400.

Maybe Porter is planning anther run at the jets issue? Does someone there know anything that we don't?

Quoting Noise (Reply 17):
What I was thinking. Targeting premium passengers traveling between YHZ, YUL, YYT, YOW, etc...

I read a little while ago that Porter has better brans recognition out east than WestJet.

As a frequent traveller to YYT, here's hoping!!
 
Noise
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:21 pm

I guess we'll wait and see if this is really true. If it is, I can see a number of options:

1) Operations/Hub will continue to be based out of YTZ, with the C100s serving major high-yielding destinations in the US and Canada outside the range of the Q400 or heavy trunk routes such as YTZ-YUL. This can happen if the ban on jet airliners is liften, and if Toronto City Hall is satisfied with the relatively quieter C100

2) Aircrafts will be based out of YOW, YUL and YHZ and expansion will occur out of these markets, again towards high yielding trunk routes.

3) Expansion out west, with YWG, YYC, YEG, YVR, YXE and YQR seeing service.

In any case, any expansion on the part of Porter Airlines is welcome. How does their product compare to AC's or WJ's proposed premium economy cabin?
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:32 pm

Quoting bakersdozen (Reply 13):
Linking up Canada would be great.

A fully loaded Cs100 on half tanks can reach any point in N.America from YTZ.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 14):

What Canada needs in terms of air travel is not another Toronto-centric carrier, it needs more long/thin routes connecting secondary markets without the need to go into Toronto.

If Porter gets these planes, there's nothing stopping them from using any airport in Canada to anywhere in N.America. If they want to expand, moving outside of the confines of Billy Bishop is inevitable.
What the...?
 
davs5032
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:53 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 3):
So I wonder is Deluce going to push to extend the runway and lift the opposition to "jets" (a good case can be made that the CS100 is as quiet as the Q400)?

So assuming that the CS100 can operate on the runway, and assuming that the jet prohibition is based on noise more than anything else, there would seem to be a reasonable chance it will get amended to allow operations. I have a feeling that the public support to change the current rule may get a boost given that the proposed plane is Canadian made. If the anti-jet sentiment is solely based on noise limitation, however, and the CS100 is really quieter than the Q400/ATR 72-600, then such amendment might be successful regardless.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 23):
If Porter gets these planes, there's nothing stopping them from using any airport in Canada to anywhere in N.America. If they want to expand, moving outside of the confines of Billy Bishop is inevitable.

Could definitely present a good business opportunity for Porter if successful.
 
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yowza
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:11 pm

Would I be getting greedy if I asked (begged?!) for a YTZ-YYT-LCY service?  

Dreams aside, if we just take a casual look at what's within 1500NM of YTZ there is no shortage of good markets and who wouldn't want to be steps from downtown rather than landing in the arse end Mississauga? I wonder how they are going to get that no jets policy overturned.



YOWza
 
haggisman
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:13 pm

e pluribus Scotsman
 
ytz
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 24):
assuming that the jet prohibition is based on noise more than anything else

We can have a long discussion on this. But to sum up, the rule may have initially been created by concerns about noise. However, in the last 20 years, the rule has been seen by anti-airport opponents as a way of preventing any viable airline from taking up at YTZ. They see it as a way to prevent expansion.

Porter caught them absolutely off-guard by buying the biggest prop plane it could possibly operate from the Island.

This is why the whole issue is juvenile at best. If the opponents were truly concerned about noise, we'd have rules akin to what's seen at LCY. But the reality is that the opponents of the airport have as their ultimate aim, the elimination of the airport entirely. Heck, one of the previous mayor's idols was a Chicago mayor who bulldozed their downtown airport in the middle of the night.

The current mayor and federal government are far more amenable to Porter. Where city council stands is a toss-up. I hope Porter tries on this issue. But I will concede that it will be a tough fight for them. Their opponents are not concerned about noise. They are going for the jugular and will take any stick they can get to beat Porter with.

If you want an ironic laugh, check out Community AIR's webpage. They were recently lamenting Porter's treatment of its workers owing to the ongoing refuellers and cleaners strike. All while their stated goal is to put their employer out of business entirely, promising a future where those employees will join the unemployment line instead of getting fairer treatment.
 
haggisman
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:25 pm

From the CBC article:

" ... The range of a CSeries jet is more than 5,400 kilometres — wide enough to extend Porter's reach across Canada, the U.S. and to Caribbean destinations. .. "

Now if they were to fly out of YYZ, then that'd be true - but they should have maybe qualified the 5400km number for smaller airports with short runways

Steve

[Edited 2013-04-09 11:32:34]
e pluribus Scotsman
 
voodoo
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting haggisman (Reply 28):
Hmmm ..I wonder where CBC got the notion that the range of the C Series jet was "over 5400km" - thats 2900 Nautical Miles. Maybe they were looking at specs for the CS300 instead? If they're doing on an article on a specific model, maybe they should use the correct specs  

via Google to this? :

http://farnborough.aero.bombardier.com/pdf/CSeries_Range_Map.pdf

Clearly, there is 'range', and there is 'range from YTZ'. Two different things.

[Edited 2013-04-09 11:33:19]
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AirbusCanada
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:35 pm

Extract from aviaton week analysis

“ Bombardier says the CS100 can fly 1,500 nm from London City Airport [which has a 4,900-ft runway ], so it will be less out of Toronto,” Doerksen says. “This would probably rule out transcontinental flights, but would put cities such as Winnipeg and Halifax well within range and also allow the airline to fly to points potentially as far south as Florida.”

If the restrictions can be removed based on the aircraft’s significantly reduced noise footprint, compared with existing jets , “the CSeries [is] an ideal aircraft for Billy Bishop,” says Walter Spracklin, an analyst with Canada’s RBC Capital Markets.

“However, we believe that significant rework at Billy Bishop . . . will have to be completed before the CS100 is able to fly out of the island airport,” he says.

Almost exclusive access to Toronto’s downtown airport has been the biggest reason for Porter’s growth, says Doerksen. The airline carried 2.45 million passengers last year and averaged a 64.3% load factor on its fleet of 20 Q400s .

Establishing a CSeries hub at Toronto Pearson or in Montreal would be a major shift in Porter’s business model. “They have a recognized brand that people associate with the convenience of the island airport ,” says Doerksen.
 
haggisman
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:36 pm

Quoting voodoo (Reply 29):

Quoting haggisman (Reply 28):
Hmmm ..I wonder where CBC got the notion that the range of the C Series jet was "over 5400km" - thats 2900 Nautical Miles. Maybe they were looking at specs for the CS300 instead? If they're doing on an article on a specific model, maybe they should use the correct specs  

via Google to this? :

http://farnborough.aero.bombardier.c...p.pdf

Yes, I just realised that and corrected my post. It is kinda cool because that kind of range potentially gives them the legs to go YVR to Hawaii  
e pluribus Scotsman
 
Fiedman
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:42 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 22):
3) Expansion out west, with YWG, YYC, YEG, YVR, YXE and YQR seeing service.

Could there be an option of not just flying the C-Series out west but also maybe also relocate some of their Q400s out west too for iner-city operations out west as well

And could they use the option for 18 narrow-body commercial planes for Q400s to base out west?

[Edited 2013-04-09 11:44:38]
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ytz
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 23):
A fully loaded Cs100 on half tanks can reach any point in N.America from YTZ.

Can an aircraft so configured actually accomplish that from a runway shorter than 4000ft?

Quoting yowza (Reply 25):
Dreams aside, if we just take a casual look at what's within 1500NM of YTZ there is no shortage of good markets and who wouldn't want to be steps from downtown rather than landing in the arse end Mississauga?

They won't get 1500nm with that runway. That 1500nm is based on LCY's runway which is 1000 ft longer. So if I had to totally WAG it, I'd say maybe 1200nm from YTZ. That would exclude YEG and YYC but include a lot of the USA.

Quoting yowza (Reply 25):
I wonder how they are going to get that no jets policy overturned.

I doubt they'll be able to. Nice to dream though...

Quoting Noise (Reply 22):
How does their product compare to AC's or WS's proposed premium economy cabin?

Porter has 34" pitch. AC's Rouge Plus won't come close and Premium Economy is only offered on long-haul. AC doesn't offer anything other than Y and J on short-haul North America and its Y product has been steadily deteriorating. WS will offer 36" in its Y+ offering. But that The only downside to PD's Q400 is the narrow seat width. If Porter configures its CS100 with 100 seats in 20 rows, then it will be able to offer 34" pitch, class leading seat-width and more overhead luggage space per passenger. Basically the CSeries could allow PD to offer a product just under that of AC and WS premium economy offerings and still do it at Y prices.

Air Canada's and Westjet's nightmare would be the rest of Canada finding out about Porter's service. Though to be fair, Porter's service has declined a little. I flew on a flight a month after launch and remember getting a whole quesadilla in my snack box. Last year when I flew Porter, I got something like 1/4 of a quesadilla. I wish they'd stop the cost cutting to that chintzy a level. Still better than AC or WS though....
 
YXD172
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:53 pm

Regardless of operational limits into YTZ, does anyone know if there would even be space for the CSeries at the existing facilities? I was under the impression that the new terminal is operating close to capacity most of the time (at least the domestic side is, since the flights to YQT and YSB have to use the US departures lounge). The CS100's wingspan is 7m greater than the Q400's, and the fuselage is 2m longer.

From what I can tell, there isn't much room for expansion on the island unless they tear down some of the hangars.
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voodoo
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting YTZ" class="quote" target="_blank">YTZ (Reply 33):
They won't get 1500nm with that runway. That 1500nm is based on LCY's runway which is 1000 ft longer.

Looks to me like LCY is just 100m longer

LCY: Runway Length 27/09: 1319m x 30m wide.

YTZ: Runway length 08/26: 1219m x 46m wide

I am not sure if the Dartford Bridge (09 departures) or Canary Wharf affects things.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
flyyul
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:56 pm

Yet again - severely doubt that this aircraft is meant for YTZ. Porter has been musing about more robust bases at Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax for quite some time.
 
queb
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting voodoo (Reply 35):
Looks to me like LCY is just 100m longer

LCY: Runway Length 27/09: 1319m x 30m wide.

YTZ: Runway length 08/26: 1219m x 46m wide

LCY runway lenght is 1508 m but only 1199 m is usable

http://www.londoncityairport.com/con...f/London_City_Airport_Brochure.pdf
 
ytz
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:30 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 36):
Yet again - severely doubt that this aircraft is meant for YTZ. Porter has been musing about more robust bases at Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax for quite some time.

Indeed. Oddly, I don't see why the CSeries is really required at these locations to start up their hubs. They could have done it with the Q400s.

On the other hand, out West the CSeries will definitely have some advantages.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:36 pm

I see this as the beginning of the end for Porter.

They presently are barely able to maintain a 55% load factor, and they go buying bigger aircraft. The result? 40% load factors?

Everyone talks about Porter's premium service levels, and they certainly do exist. But ... to date, no North American airline has been able to attract a higher paying Customer with better passenger service! It is fare and fare alone, especially if the rumours of a YHZ base are true ... probably the most price conscious market in Canada.

The thought of attracting a "business market" is again, not likely. In the past, no "new entrant" has ever been able to take "business traffic" from an incumbent. I remember hearing one of Westjet's executives state at an annual meeting when asked about trying to attract a "business traveler", he stated ... "A bomb scare couldn't get a businessman off of an Air Canada airplane!"

This will only add complications and expense to their operation. I think they are looking for a bailout. They get close to shutting down, then go to the Government for "help" after buying the "Canadian" airplane!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
brilondon
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:52 pm

Quoting YTZ" class="quote" target="_blank">YTZ (Reply 33):
Air Canada's and Westjet's nightmare would be the rest of Canada finding out about Porter's service. Though to be fair, Porter's service has declined a little. I flew on a flight a month after launch and remember getting a whole quesadilla in my snack box. Last year when I flew Porter, I got something like 1/4 of a quesadilla. I wish they'd stop the cost cutting to that chintzy a level. Still better than AC or WS though....

Yes, I find the same thing. I flew PD from EWR to YTZ last week, on my way back to YXU and have found their service to be less than what it was a couple of years ago.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 39):

I see this as the beginning of the end for Porter.

They presently are barely able to maintain a 55% load factor, and they go buying bigger aircraft. The result? 40% load factors?

Everyone talks about Porter's premium service levels, and they certainly do exist. But ... to date, no North American airline has been able to attract a higher paying Customer with better passenger service! It is fare and fare alone, especially if the rumours of a YHZ base are true ... probably the most price conscious market in Canada.

The thought of attracting a "business market" is again, not likely. In the past, no "new entrant" has ever been able to take "business traffic" from an incumbent. I remember hearing one of Westjet's executives state at an annual meeting when asked about trying to attract a "business traveler", he stated ... "A bomb scare couldn't get a businessman off of an Air Canada airplane!"

This will only add complications and expense to their operation. I think they are looking for a bailout. They get close to shutting down, then go to the Government for "help" after buying the "Canadian" airplane!

I don't think that they are that close to shutting down, but with these aircraft, it is hard to see what direction they may be realistically be taking without any real connections beyond their current markets.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting YTZ" class="quote" target="_blank">YTZ (Reply 33):
Can an aircraft so configured actually accomplish that from a runway shorter than 4000ft?

Take off length for the CS100 at MTOW is less than 5000 ft, and that gets that maximum range of 2950nm. Billy Bishop's runway is 80% of what the CS100 needs for a MTOW takeoff so only having enough fuel for 1500nm should allow them at least close to a full cabin, taking off from a 4000' runway.

Quoting YTZ" class="quote" target="_blank">YTZ (Reply 33):
They won't get 1500nm with that runway. That 1500nm is based on LCY's runway which is 1000 ft longer. So if I had to totally WAG it, I'd say maybe 1200nm from YTZ. That would exclude YEG and YYC but include a lot of the USA.
Quoting queb (Reply 37):
LCY runway lenght is 1508 m but only 1199 m is usable

Almost exactly 4000'.

Quoting YTZ" class="quote" target="_blank">YTZ (Reply 33):
I doubt they'll be able to. Nice to dream though...

The same thing was said about Porter using Q400's at Bishop. It's a much different political environment now than in 1983 when the tripartite was signed.

Quoting YXD172 (Reply 34):
Regardless of operational limits into YTZ, does anyone know if there would even be space for the CSeries at the existing facilities?

That is probably a bigger consideration right now than runway length.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 39):
They presently are barely able to maintain a 55% load factor, and they go buying bigger aircraft. The result? 40% load factors?

Their 2012 load factor was 61%.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 40):
I don't think that they are that close to shutting down, but with these aircraft, it is hard to see what direction they may be realistically be taking without any real connections beyond their current markets.

If the worst happens, they might make a good acquisition target. WS might take a run at them if their price goes down.
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Kaiarahi
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:49 pm

Thinking out loud here (probably shouldn't on a.net), but what if PD provided codeshare Canada/U.S. cnx for one or more ME airlines flying into YUL (AT, RJ, AH, QR)? Or Canadian cnx for AF/KL? Codeshares are allowed under all the applicable bilaterals.
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yowza
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:57 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 42):
Thinking out loud here (probably shouldn't on a.net), but what if PD provided codeshare Canada/U.S. cnx for one or more ME airlines flying into YUL (AT, RJ, AH, QR)? Or Canadian cnx for AF/KL? Codeshares are allowed under all the applicable bilaterals.

I'm not sure I understand what the C series has with their ability to sign codeshares... AF/KL would be an attractive partner. PD already has interline agreements with:
- QR which gives them feed from both YUL and IAD
- SA which gives them feed at IAD
- SQ thorugh EWR


YOWza
 
9252fly
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:59 pm

With the twice failed attempt at an IPO, one has to wonder what Deluce is up to? The sense I get is that PD has for the most part tapped-out the markets from YTZ, it's only going to get worse within a few years once WS starts moving their DH4's out east. I'm not trying to say I don't want them to exist or be successful,it's just I don't see the AC or WS not reacting to PD if and when they indeed decide to compete using the CSeries. Exciting times ahead in Canadian aviation!
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:01 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 43):
I'm not sure I understand what the C series has with their ability to sign codeshares...

They could base a significant portion of the fleet at YUL, rather than YTZ, if their codeshares were with ME airlines and or KL/AF.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:05 pm

Is PD the mysterious launch customer? At present there are three undisclosed customers all of whom ordered the CS100
 
ytz
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:07 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 39):
I see this as the beginning of the end for Porter.

But then, one would expect an Air Canada pilot to say that. Your argument would hold true if somehow they were pushing to base these aircraft at YTZ. But if they are basing them elsewhere, they would presumably be pursuing new markets.

What if PD starts operating out of YUL to many US cities and the Carribean? I highly doubt that price-sensitive travellers from Toronto or Halifax would mind a little bit of backtracking.

Or what if PD decides to launch an entirely distinct operation out West?

Personally, I think PD could do well by setting up bases at YUL. This would reduce pressure on YTZ and make it a more focused operation, dedicated to Toronto O/D traffic, leaving Porter to grow new markets elsewhere. For example, I'm sure PD could effectively employ a CS100 and make a profit on routes AC hasn't touched, like YUL-SFO. Or where service is scant. Like YUL-YYC.

Or maybe even using YOW as a rather low-cost national hub (gotta be cheaper than operating from YYZ or YUL). After all, you are bound to get at least some o/d traffic on every flight to the nation's capital. Or YWG as an East-West connector. Low cost hub. Low cost aircraft. Higher service. It might just work. They just have to get the waves right to reduce connecting times.

I do think there's room for them to grow. YYZ is not the only place viable to support an airline in Canada.
 
YYCSpotter
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:21 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 21):
Targeting premium passengers traveling between YHZ, YUL, YYT, YOW, etc...

What premium passengers? the majority of canada's premium traffic is out of YYZ, YYC primarily, and YUL and YVR as more minor hubs.

Quoting YXD172 (Reply 34):
From what I can tell, there isn't much room for expansion on the island unless they tear down some of the hangars.

They may have to cannibalize their FBO first to do that
I
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Porter To Order C-Series

Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:23 pm

Does anyone know what became of Deluce's lawsuit against AC for revoking his travel privileges?
Empty vessels make the most noise.