factsonly
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KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:11 pm

Today KLM attempted to fly one of its retired MD11 aircraft PH-KCG to VCV for scrapping.

Regretfully the aircraft suffered technical issues while crossing the Atlantic and it looks as if the pilots decided twice to return to AMS. The first time was about halfway between Iceland and Greenland (see FR24) and the second and final time while crossing the West Coast of Greenland.

The aircraft returned to AMS after an 8 Hour flight!!

Apparently PH-KCG didn't like the idea of going to the scrappers!

http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/kl7431
 
cschleic
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:20 pm

Quoting factsonly (Thread starter):
Apparently PH-KCG didn't like the idea of going to the scrappers!

Now that's a plane that's determined to stay back home! And so spotters can keep catching it in action.
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:22 pm

Looks like they will try again shortly, ETD 19.06 local time as KL7431
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United_fan
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:55 pm

Quoting factsonly (Thread starter):
Today KLM attempted to fly one of its retired MD11 aircraft PH-KCG to VCV for scrapping

Kinda surprising they were not converted to freighters. Is the pax-freight MD11 market dead ? Sad to see another heavy 3 holer scrapped.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:00 pm

Quoting cschleic (Reply 1):
Now that's a plane that's determined to stay back home!

That's because it's a diva.  
Quoting United_fan (Reply 3):
Kinda surprising they were not converted to freighters. Is the pax-freight MD11 market dead ?

The market doesn't seem to be dead, but from what I recollect, KL MD-11s are retired before a major overhaul. Though, Martinair has just retired to SFB one of its MD-11CF/(F)
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:00 pm

Nice try PH-KCG, but resistance is futile!

http://oi47.tinypic.com/11ay71s.jpg
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jetblueguy22
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:07 pm

Something tells me one of our resident MD-11 lovers hit something with a wrench  . Talk about an aircraft that doesn't want to go to the scrapper. Anybody know exactly what went wrong?
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airtran737
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:08 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 3):
Kinda surprising they were not converted to freighters. Is the pax-freight MD11 market dead ? Sad to see another heavy 3 holer scrapped.

The MD-11's are due a FANS upgrade in the next couple years. You are going to see even more of them heading to the desert.
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Spacepope
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 3):
Kinda surprising they were not converted to freighters. Is the pax-freight MD11 market dead ? Sad to see another heavy 3 holer scrapped.

I'd wager that these airframes are pretty high time, not many hours left on them to make the conversion economically feasable. If KLM puts hours on their longhaul aircraft kind of like LH does, they'd be in the 90-105,000 hour range already.
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roseflyer
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:38 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 8):
Quoting United_fan (Reply 3):
Kinda surprising they were not converted to freighters. Is the pax-freight MD11 market dead ? Sad to see another heavy 3 holer scrapped.

I'd wager that these airframes are pretty high time, not many hours left on them to make the conversion economically feasable. If KLM puts hours on their longhaul aircraft kind of like LH does, they'd be in the 90-105,000 hour range already.

20 years of commercial service is going to put more hours on this MD-11 than any of the others in FedEx of the other major freight carriers fleet. I doubt it is up to 100,000 since KLM's oldest MD-11 is from 1994, but still it will have many more hours than what the freight carriers would want.
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kl911
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:45 pm

Why didn't they just continue? They must have been over the halfway point by the time they turned around. Could it be something simple like forgetting the customs papers or their passports?  
 
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CrimsonNL
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:02 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
Anybody know exactly what went wrong?

Apparently some form of oil leakage/problems with one of the engines. I do wonder why they didn't divert to an airport in Canada or the US! West-Coast Greenland - AMS is considerably longer then Greenland - YYZ for example. And with no pax to worry about, with an aircraft that's on her final fight..

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enilria
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:06 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 11):

Apparently some form of oil leakage/problems with one of the engines. I do wonder why they didn't divert to an airport in Canada or the US! West-Coast Greenland - AMS is considerably longer then Greenland - YYZ for example. And with no pax to worry about, with an aircraft that's on her final fight..

Martijn

The flight back to Holland probably cost more in fuel than the scrap company is giving them! LOL
 
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lightsaber
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:27 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 3):
Is the pax-freight MD11 market dead ?

Most recent pricing I could find:
Fall 2012 Aircraft Values And Lease Pricing (by LAXintl Nov 5 2012 in Civil Aviation)

MD-11 - $8.0 – 13.0M , $150-210,000

However, the resale value of the older types has been dropping hard since then.

Aircraft resale values are being hit:
http://afm.aero/magazine/trading-leg...e-rates-where%E2%80%99s-the-bounce


The freight market is weak. Why would anyone invest now in a pax to freight conversion?

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Revelation
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:07 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
The freight market is weak. Why would anyone invest now in a pax to freight conversion?

Seems Boeing has quite a few returned 744-BCFs to chose from, if the customer is so inclined...
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:24 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
Why would anyone invest now in a pax to freight conversion?

Well I don't know, but it didn't stop a company to convert at least one former WO MD-11 pax into a cargo which should be delivered to AV Cargo.

[Edited 2013-04-15 13:25:24]
 
TheCheese
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:49 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 12):

The flight back to Holland probably cost more in fuel than the scrap company is giving them! LOL

KLM maintenance at AMS is vastly less expensive than remote maintenance at any other base. Bring the old bird back to Schipol, break out the speed tape and bailing wire and try again. Stopping en route for maintenance means a bill from a non-KLM maintenance crew and money spent on an airframe that is going to the scrapper.
 
nclmedic
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:07 pm

It'll be sad to see these birds leave the KL fleet - remarkably well kept, and many passengers enjoyed flying them more than the A330's.
 
NWAROOSTER
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:00 am

Why could KLM have simply continued the flight as a two engine ferry flight? There were no passengers. Only the flight crew. It has been done many times in the past to do a two engine ferry flight when one engine is not serviceable on a three engine aircraft. That is why Northwest Airlines would not operate any aircraft smaller than a three holler, until the merger with Republic Airlines, which had the DC-9. They simply ferried the aircraft to a maintenance base that had a spare engine.   
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TheCheese
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 18):
Why could KLM have simply continued the flight as a two engine ferry flight?

That's an easy one; those three engines are timed out. They may have ferry exemptions, and even the flight crew is leery of depending on two marginal power plants over the North Atlantic.
 
Max Q
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:29 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 18):
That is why Northwest Airlines would not operate any aircraft smaller than a three holler,

Is that like when you yell three times ?


Humor intended..
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B747forever
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:40 am

One last visit at the home base...


When will KLM retire the last MD11?
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DIJKKIJK
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:21 am

I have flown twice on KCG. On both occasions she returned to Amsterdam due to engine problems.

Good old Maria Callas and her tricks. God bless her!
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sk909
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:06 am

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 22):
When will KLM retire the last MD11?

I think it is scheduled to phased out by 2014.
Life's for Living!
 
76er
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:39 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 18):
Why could KLM have simply continued the flight as a two engine ferry flight? There were no passengers. Only the flight crew. It has been done many times in the past to do a two engine ferry flight when one engine is not serviceable on a three engine aircraft

You are referring to two different things. Continuing a flight after an inflight shutdown is subject to different rules than a two-engine ferry. If you shutdown an engine in flight, your maximum altitude goes down and your fuelflow goes up. There may not have been enough fuel on board to make it to VCV with one engine inop at such an early point in the flight.
 
xdlx
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:42 am

I have to agree..... specially with 2nd RTB..... If same problem !
Shut her down and divert to YYZ or KBGR..... DL can loan an engine to its AF/KL partner for the last leg before the boneyard and that can all be resolved internally with debits & credits....  
 
PHX787
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:13 am

This is only a sign--keep the MD11 flying!!!! (at least until I can fly it    )
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HBIHLtoEZE
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:14 am

I happened to witness Maria Callas' designated final take off from its (former) home base yesterday - I was wondering if the flight was the ferry flight to the storage airport - as it is unusual to see unmarked airliners in the basic colours of major airlines...

anyway: here are the pictures:




Untitled (KLM) MD-11; PH-KCG@AMS;15.04.2013 by Aero Icarus, on Flickr



Untitled (KLM) MD-11; PH-KCG@AMS;15.04.2013 by Aero Icarus, on Flickr


Untitled (KLM) MD-11; PH-KCG@AMS;15.04.2013 by Aero Icarus, on Flickr

At least the glory of KLMs trijets is to last on for another year - seeing some active MD-11s in passenger configuration made my aviation heart happy, for sure - especially seeing PH-KCE - 'Audrey Hepburn' was a pleasure (the latest trijet I have had to enjoy a ride on - October '11, MIA-AMS)...





Many cheers

[Edited 2013-04-16 03:21:35]
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
na
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:17 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 15):
Well I don't know, but it didn't stop a company to convert at least one former WO MD-11 pax into a cargo which should be delivered to AV Cargo.

Thats maybe the last one. In the past five years there have been very few MD-11 conversions. Also a World MD-11 mainly doing charters certainly has much less cycles than an equally old KLM plane. And older World MD-11s are being scrapped also. The remaining rest of pax-MD11s are clapped-out frames, the KLM planes being even the youngest.
 
brilondon
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:59 am

Why if it is going to the scrap yard would they fly it all the way back to AMS instead of continuing say to YHZ or even Gander in Newfoundland or on to BOS, fix what needs fixing and continue to the scrap yard?
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:27 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 29):
Why if it is going to the scrap yard would they fly it all the way back to AMS instead of continuing

Probably for the following reason:

Quoting TheCheese (Reply 16):
KLM maintenance at AMS is vastly less expensive than remote maintenance at any other base. Bring the old bird back to Schipol, break out the speed tape and bailing wire and try again. Stopping en route for maintenance means a bill from a non-KLM maintenance crew and money spent on an airframe that is going to the scrapper.
 
na
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:30 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 29):
Why if it is going to the scrap yard would they fly it all the way back to AMS instead of continuing say to YHZ or even Gander in Newfoundland or on to BOS, fix what needs fixing and continue to the scrap yard?

Maybe company policy to repair what can be repaired by themselves. Maybe a major issue was suspected which could have been expensive if someone else would have repaired it, or it was the fear to get stuck in a remote place like Gander.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 27):
At least the glory of KLMs trijets is to last on for another year

It´ll be sad to see another grand type vanish from scheduled passenger service next year. Then only World is left doing chartered passenger flights, right? 777s and A330s will take over, yawn, zzzzzzzzzz....
 
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lightsaber
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:32 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 15):
Well I don't know, but it didn't stop a company to convert at least one former WO MD-11 pax into a cargo which should be delivered to AV Cargo.

When was the contract signed? Freight has fallen off in the last 4 months.

Quoting na (Reply 28):
Thats maybe the last one. In the past five years there have been very few MD-11 conversions. Also a World MD-11 mainly doing charters certainly has much less cycles than an equally old KLM plane. And older World MD-11s are being scrapped also.

That is the fact. There might be an exception or two, but for the most part the MD-11F fleet will only shrink from now on.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:44 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 32):
When was the contract signed?

Don't know that, but airlinerlist reports it was ferried MIA-ANC-QPG in Jan '12 for conversion, and then in June QPG-HNL-VCV.
 
B747forever
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:48 pm

Quoting sk909 (Reply 23):

Not much time left for the MD11  

At least I will be able to enjoy it at LAX this summer.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
ordpark
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:08 pm

I LOVE an airplane with an Attitude!!!...."Don't go quietly into that good night" to paraphrase...someone....?!?
 
Spacepope
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:55 pm

Quoting ORDPARK (Reply 35):

I LOVE an airplane with an Attitude!!!...."Don't go quietly into that good night" to paraphrase...someone....?!?

If it indeed was the "Maria Callas", then I would expect nothing less than a diva attitude from that machine!
The last of the famous international playboys
 
factsonly
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:32 pm

This was the only true 'Prima Donna' the world ever knew............ her name was indeed: Maria Callas!

- McDonnell Douglas MD-11
- reg: PH-KCG
- c/n 48561 airframe 585

- KLM Royal Dutch Airlines
- seating: C31Y251
- date delivered 12-05-1995
- Status: Stored

- NAME: Maria Callas


http://www.planespotters.net/Aviation_Photos/photo.show?id=006863
 
HBIHLtoEZE
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:55 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 37):
'Prima Donna' the world ever knew

...yes, aren't there some folk beliefs in with evil spirits are kept away by bodies of water (so that they won't get near the comfort zone)? ...indeed quite ironical that the prima donna in KL's fleet is going tech on her designated flight to the deathbed...

many cheers
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
L1011
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:24 pm

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 27):
At least the glory of KLMs trijets is to last on for another year -

Does this mean I might get to fly on one next year? Last month I flew from RIC to SFO to fly on one from there to AMS and back. They seemed like new aircraft on the inside. By the way, I flew on PH-KCG in 2006 from AMS to SFO.

Bob Bradley
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planespotting
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:27 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 25):
Shut her down and divert to YYZ or KBGR..... DL can loan an engine to its AF/KL partner for the last leg before the boneyard and that can all be resolved internally with debits & credits....

Because DL has a spare MD-11 engine lying around?
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:05 pm

Quoting planespotting (Reply 40):
Because DL has a spare MD-11 engine lying around?

Good question. If it were the case, it wouldn't work for KL since they both had or have completely different engine types.
 
Viscount724
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:25 pm

From Transport Canada daily occurrence reports:


At position 62N 047W at 1033Z, a KLM McDonnell Douglas MD-11 (PHKCG / KLM7431) from EHAM to KVCV requested to return to EHAM due to an aircraft technical issue. Flight was recleared as requested. Exited the Gander OCA at 1207Z. No emergency.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:53 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 33):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 32):
When was the contract signed?

Don't know that, but airlinerlist reports it was ferried MIA-ANC-QPG in Jan '12 for conversion, and then in June QPG-HNL-VCV.

Thank you. That implies the conversion contract was signed 16 or so months ago when it looked like cargo would rebound. It hasn't... which will depress the value of all MD-11Fs which makes the case to convert tougher. In particular as there are a number of freighters parked. e.g., Boeing has 744BCFs available on short notice...

Lightsaber
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United_fan
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:54 pm

Quoting planespotting (Reply 40):

Because DL has a spare MD-11 engine lying around?

I remember when DL sold their MD11's to UPS,they flew them YMX - ROW them removed the engines and trucked them back to Montreal for the next flight.
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
NWAROOSTER
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:24 am

Quoting 76er (Reply 24):
Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 18):
Why could KLM have simply continued the flight as a two engine ferry flight? There were no passengers. Only the flight crew. It has been done many times in the past to do a two engine ferry flight when one engine is not serviceable on a three engine aircraft

You are referring to two different things. Continuing a flight after an inflight shutdown is subject to different rules than a two-engine ferry. If you shutdown an engine in flight, your maximum altitude goes down and your fuelflow goes up. There may not have been enough fuel on board to make it to VCV with one engine inop at such an early point in the flight.

The engines may of been "out of time" and with one engine shut down, it may not have been possible to fly non stop to VCV. But the aircraft , may have to make a stop on the east coast of the United States to pass through customs. Does VCV have customs for allowing the aircraft into the US? The aircraft may have been temporarily grounded at the port of entry until all repairs were completed, or at the very minimum the aircraft would have been refueled and prepared for a two engine ferry flight to VCV. After that a new ferry permit would have to be obtained to continue the flight to VCV.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
Viscount724
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:36 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 45):
Does VCV have customs for allowing the aircraft into the US?

Yes, full US customs facilities.
http://www.logisticsairport.com/page.aspx?pgid=3
http://www.logisticsairport.com/page.aspx?pgid=8
 
ltbewr
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:24 am

I wonder if the quirky handling of MD-11's also hurts their resale and freighter conversion value? Perhaps the problems with this a/c in going to the graveyard is why it is going now, maybe it was a 'hanger queen' and a mx hog. Still I like how it is going to 'death' fighting.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:39 am

Well, skyliner news reports another attempt to ferry that bird to VCV is planned for tomorrow.
 
cv990Coronado
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RE: KLM MD11 On Very Final Flight - Returns To Base

Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:12 am

She is putting up a good fight before she becomes 100000 Coke cans   
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