Querosene
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Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:54 pm

Aeromexico 767-200 XA-TOJ had a tailstrike at MAD.
Two crew members are hospitalized with minor injuries.

Picture:

https://twitter.com/PabloReinah/status/324217076749312000/photo/1

More info (only in spanish):

http://www.excelsior.com.mx/global/2013/04/16/894218
 
Summa767
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:17 pm

That looks like a nasty scrape. 762s are not particularly long, which one would think would make such an occurrence very unlikely.
Let's wait to hear the cause. A botched up operation or a freak gust of wind..

It is also reported that an Air Europa A330 bound for CCS punctured a nose tyre as a result of debris on the runway from the AM tail strike. It had to circle around MAD before landing back at base.
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:37 pm

Ouch! That looks fairly nasty... It will be interesting to hear what caused this. As you say the -200 is probably not particularly prone to tailstrikes.
 
gabo787
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:22 pm

Ouch!! That is a nasty tailstrike.
Considering that this 762 is almost 23 years old do you think it will be repaired or scraped?
 
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MayaviaERJ190
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:02 pm

Ouch! This bird is in need of a serious stay at the hospital.

AeroMexico with one less 767, is now in dire straits awaiting FAA, DGAC and B, as by this time, plans called for the substitution of 767s for 787s to have been well on its way.

767s in the fleet have now to be administered like if it was with a drop counter, as they stretched their use a lot by opening the long awaited slot at Heathrow last December.

If this plane is to be repaired, I suggest they also re-do its registration. XA-TOJ doesn't help at all... and please do not choose XA-MAJ. (Like going from XA-SHT to XA-FKD in Spanish).
My other plane is an A380.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:08 pm

Quoting Querosene (Thread starter):
Picture:

https://twitter.com/PabloReinah/status/324217076749312000/photo/1

Too bad! That one won't just buff out! 
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Aesma
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:32 pm

Look at that door, the skin has been ripped off !
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AR385
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:02 pm

Considering the age of the aircraft, and the plans AM had for the 787s, that plane is a WO.
 
na
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:07 pm

Quoting gabo787 (Reply 3):
Considering that this 762 is almost 23 years old do you think it will be repaired or scraped?
Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
Considering the age of the aircraft, and the plans AM had for the 787s, that plane is a WO.

I bet its a write-off. There is no other option than scrapping this old bird. Its short of retirement and hardly a desirable type these days.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:10 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
Considering the age of the aircraft, and the plans AM had for the 787s, that plane is a WO.

Keep in mind that decision is for the insurer to make. If somehow it's cheaper to fix it than to give them insured value, it'll be fixed.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:14 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
Considering the age of the aircraft, and the plans AM had for the 787s, that plane is a WO.

Knowing AM, they will put some duct tape, crazy glue, and call it a day...

Then again they are going to receive their 787 any day now....   

TRB
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na
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:27 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Keep in mind that decision is for the insurer to make. If somehow it's cheaper to fix it than to give them insured value, it'll be fixed.

Sure, but whats a clapped-out 20 year plus 762 worth these days? A million dollars maybe, or less? I bet no insurer will have this repaired.
 
tp1040
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:22 pm

Well, if you going to have a tail strike, might as well do it right. That is nasty looking. I don't think it will buff out.

If that bird doesn't have bulkhead damage, it will be amazing.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:22 am

Wow that is a nasty strike... and unusual. As Summa767 wrote, these occurrences are rare in short, stubby aircraft like the 762.

At least the incident happened to an old 762ER and not a 77E, which is the aircraft type that AM usually sends to MAD. Losing a 77E, albeit temporarily, would cause serious problems to AM.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
Alnicocunife
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:41 am

Is it owned, leased or encumbered with debt? They may have to fix it, it depends of the arrangement. It would be out of service for at least a month. if there is nothing else to cover the flights spending $250-$500K to repair is worth it. Flying the aircraft for 18 months after repair is worth at least $250-$500K.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:10 am

Quoting Alnicocunife (Reply 14):
Is it owned, leased or encumbered with debt?

It's lease under contract from SAS since 1999. Interestingly, I think this was one of the birds that was to be returned to the lessor this Summer, but its contract was extended until early next year to cover for delays with the three 787s that AM is supposed to be receiving this year.

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Aeromexico
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AF185
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:31 am

Wondering what feeling passengers must experience on-board..
Has anyone here ever experienced a tail strike? Is it very rough for passengers?

Here they say it is 2 crew members who are injured. I would guess they are the ones sitting at the rear during take off?
 
Max Q
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:01 am

Quoting summa767 (Reply 1):
That looks like a nasty scrape. 762s are not particularly long, which one would think would make such an occurrence very unlikely.

There are two other, longer versions of the 767 FYI, the longest of which the -400 is 201 feet 4 inches long and requires one to be quite careful to avoid a tailstrike, as does the -300.


Does anyone know if this occurred on take off or landing ? the damage is as bad as I've seen and several reasons come to mind.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:15 am

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 12):
If that bird doesn't have bulkhead damage, it will be amazing.

agreed.

Quoting Querosene (Thread starter):

whoooooaaaaa I was expecting to see a nice little tail strike. That is one of the better ones i have ever seen. APU doors are just about gone.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:22 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):

Does anyone know if this occurred on take off or landing ? the damage is as bad as I've seen and several reasons come to mind.

The article in Spanish states that the strike on the runway occurred during take off and this suggest the most likely cause to be that the aircraft was overweight for take off. Once airborne the pilots noticed that aircraft wasn't pressurizing and thus decided to turn around and head back to MAD. Meanwhile an Air Europa A330 taking off bound to CCS following this 767 also punctured its front tires on take off due to scattered debris leftover by this 767, which also caused this flight to return to MAD.
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Max Q
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:26 am

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 19):

The article in Spanish states that the strike on the runway occurred during take off and this suggest the most likely cause to be that the aircraft was overweight for take off. Once airborne the pilots noticed that aircraft wasn't pressurizing and thus decided to turn around and head back to MAD. Meanwhile an Air Europa A330 taking off bound to CCS following this 767 also punctured its front tires on take off due to scattered debris leftover by this 767, which also caused this flight to return to MAD.

Thank you LP, there has to be more to this than just an overweight take off. To hit the tail on a 762 is almost unprecedented and I hope what really happened is made available soon.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
zschocheimages
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:58 am

There is really only one way to have a tailstrike on takeoff - rotate too quickly. As a heavy pilot myself, I always count slowly to four in my head while rotating. I make sure I'm not at my desired takeoff pitch until I get to four. Likely the pilot rotated too quickly for whatever reason and struck the tail as a result. Even if she is an old bird, it's sad to see her like that.
Why fly with 2 engines when you can have 3?
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:02 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 13):
At least the incident happened to an old 762ER and not a 77E, which is the aircraft type that AM usually sends to MAD. Losing a 77E

This is an honest question: Was the aircraft a last-minute swap? If so, is it possible that the MAD handling agents were expecting a 77E and thus over-loaded the aircraft or loaded it such that the CoG was too far back?
 
Max Q
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:25 am

Quoting zschocheimages (Reply 21):
There is really only one way to have a tailstrike on takeoff - rotate too quickly. As a heavy pilot myself, I always count slowly to four in my head while rotating. I make sure I'm not at my desired takeoff pitch until I get to four. Likely the pilot rotated too quickly for whatever reason and struck the tail as a result. Even if she is an old bird, it's sad to see her like that.

Not really true, if they were using incorrect V Speeds (for too low a weight) a normal rotation rate at too slow a speed will hit the tail.


Many possible reasons here:


Overweight


Incorrect Stab Trim, nose low or high.


Incorrect Vspeeds.


Incorrect thrust setting.


Windshear.


Too rapid a rotation.



It's just too early to tell.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
na
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:37 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 22):
This is an honest question: Was the aircraft a last-minute swap? If so, is it possible that the MAD handling agents were expecting a 77E and thus over-loaded the aircraft or loaded it such that the CoG was too far back?

I do not think that the agents would be so stupid not to notice...
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:43 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 23):
Not really true, if they were using incorrect V Speeds (for too low a weight) a normal rotation rate at too slow a speed will hit the tail.


Many possible reasons here:


Overweight


Incorrect Stab Trim, nose low or high.


Incorrect Vspeeds.


Incorrect thrust setting.


Windshear.


Too rapid a rotation.



It's just too early to tell.

Yep it could be any of those. I'd also add to your list:

Incorrect T/O flap setting

Actual loading distribution different to loading plan.
 
Dogbreath
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:45 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 22):
This is an honest question: Was the aircraft a last-minute swap? If so, is it possible that the MAD handling agents were expecting a 77E and thus over-loaded the aircraft or loaded it such that the CoG was too far back?

I don't think that is very likely. And if so, then all concerned would have no place being anywhere near aviation. Not read about any factual evidence of CoG or Gross weight issues with this aircraft.

Quoting zschocheimages (Reply 21):
There is really only one way to have a tailstrike on takeoff - rotate too quickly.

I tend to agree here. Or the PF may have trimmed the elevator nose-up during the rotation. A big NO-NO on my flightdeck!

Whilst a tailstrike can happen to any of us, the aircraft is designed to prevent a catastrophic failure of the fuselage and tail section. There is a Tailstrike Checklist in the QRH to prevent further damage and guidance to land at the nearest suitable airfield. My shock and dismay about this whole episode is what were the Madrid Air Traffic Controllers doing during this incident. A tail scrape of the magnitude that occurred to this B767 would have been pretty damn obvious to the Tower Controller. So did he/she see this or not? If so, then why wasn't the runway closed for an inspection. If not, then they're not monitoring the aircraft they have on their runway. Whatever happened, they allowed an A330 to depart from a contaminated runway and suffer damage. This could easily have been a disaster and everyone is fortunate that only the nose wheels were damaged. The Air France Concorde comes to mind.

Having operated in and out of Madrid for a while now, my disgust with the professionalism of Spanish ATC and in particular Madrid is at about boiling point. I can't understand why EASA and AENA won't get of their backsides and sort this mess out.

Rant over.
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Btblue
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:24 am

Oh my, that looks like a very nasty tail scrape. Must have been dragging that thing along the ground for a good few seconds and looking at the tail, it's been given a fair old bump and then a good old drag. Looks like over rotation or a gust of wind.

Sure that's a W/O. How sad.

An interesting article from Boeing:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...rticles/qtr_1_07/article_02_1.html

[Edited 2013-04-17 02:26:35]

[Edited 2013-04-17 02:27:21]
146/2/3 737/2/3/4/5/7/8/9 A320 1/2/18/19/21 DC9/40/50 DC10/30 A300/6 A330/2/3 A340/3/6 A380 757/2/3 747/4 767/3/4 787 77
 
theaviator380
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:30 am

Does any one know about any runway damage result of this nasty tail strike? could possible isn't it?
 
bennett123
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:47 am

Reply 17

"Once airborne the pilots noticed that aircraft wasn't pressurizing".

Combined with everything else, this sounds as if the Rear Pressure Bulkhead has been punctured.
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:38 am

The lack of pressurisation was their warning? Seriously? They didn't notice an impact severe enough to cause this damage and cause injuries in the cabin?
 
YWG747
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:48 am

That is one heck of a skid mark
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:45 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 30):
The lack of pressurisation was their warning? Seriously? They didn't notice an impact severe enough to cause this damage and cause injuries in the cabin?

I bet the reports a factually wrong, they had injured in the Aircraft and came back, and in the mean time they noticed the leak on the bulkhead... I cant imagine ANYONE trying to fly for 11 hours with 2 injured people onboard.

That pilot, really wanted to carve his initials on the tarmac!!! or as we say in México:

"En la penca de un maguey...grabe tu nombreeee"

Translation: In a tree I carved your name !!!

TRB
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jfk777
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:43 pm

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 22):
This is an honest question: Was the aircraft a last-minute swap? If so, is it possible that the MAD handling agents were expecting a 77E and thus over-loaded the aircraft or loaded it such that the CoG was too far back?

The Handling agent in Madrid should know they were getting a 767 since they had 12 hours notice. Its not like they were told it was a 777 and got a surprise when a 767 appeared at Barajas airport.
 
AM744
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:59 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 23):

It's just too early to tell.

Speaking of which. How are these incidents investigated? Looks pretty serious to me.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 30):
The lack of pressurisation was their warning? Seriously? They didn't notice an impact severe enough to cause this damage and cause injuries in the cabin?

I don't think that was the case. Sounds like lousy journalism to me.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 25):
Actual loading distribution different to loading plan.

I thought about that too, but it didn't fit in well with the idea that the pilots didn't notice the tail strike.

If they had an aft of limits CG that itself should have been noticeable, no?
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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Clydenairways
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:19 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 35):

I thought about that too, but it didn't fit in well with the idea that the pilots didn't notice the tail strike.

If they had an aft of limits CG that itself should have been noticeable, no?

True, but at the moment anyway i'm not buying the report that a Tail strike of the magnitude to do this amount of damage was undetected by the crew until they noticed the aircraft wasn't pressurising.
 
Summa767
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:27 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 32):
I bet the reports a factually wrong, they had injured in the Aircraft and came back, and in the mean time they noticed the leak on the bulkhead..

In a Televisa report, I heard a passenger described what happened. In his words: A very very hard impact, then normal flight until the oxygen masks dropped passing 10.000 feet. A pilot made an announcement about wearing the masks.

It will be good to know the communications with MAD ATC to see at what point there was an indication of the intention to hold and return.
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:31 pm

Another article (only in Spanish) with a different image:

http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/04/16/madrid/1366138187_611595.html

Not pretty... Did some serious damage.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
r2rho
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:34 pm

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 26):
A tail scrape of the magnitude that occurred to this B767 would have been pretty damn obvious to the Tower Controller. So did he/she see this or not? If so, then why wasn't the runway closed for an inspection. If not, then they're not monitoring the aircraft they have on their runway. Whatever happened, they allowed an A330 to depart from a contaminated runway and suffer damage. This could easily have been a disaster and everyone is fortunate that only the nose wheels were damaged. The Air France Concorde comes to mind.

To me that is one of the main concerns, the following A330... the tailstrike "can happen", ok. But leaving debris behind for the next aicraft...
However, if the aircraft was taking off on one of the 36's, I assume any debris could not be seen from the tower, as the rotation would happen at the farther end of the runway, within line of sight but too far to recognize any small object. And it seems that the Aeromexico was not aware of the tailstrike until later (wasn't there a recent LH tailstrike like that as well?), so that ATC was not notified about it, and gave takeoff clearance to the next aircraft.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 37):
In a Televisa report, I heard a passenger described what happened. In his words: A very very hard impact, then normal flight until the oxygen masks dropped passing 10.000 feet. A pilot made an announcement about wearing the masks.

It will be good to know the communications with MAD ATC to see at what point there was an indication of the intention to hold and return.

If that is so, then a) the crew really did not seem to notice and continued with climb or b) the crew noticed, told ATC, were given a holding pattern above 10000ft, upon which the masks deployed, indicating damage to the bulkhead. We'll have to know more about the comunications that were going on.
 
AM744
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting na (Reply 11):
Sure, but whats a clapped-out 20 year plus 762 worth these days? A million dollars maybe, or less? I bet no insurer will have this repaired.

Plus, if there was indeed damage to the bulkhead, there would be some risk associated with a potential repair, wouldn't it? Wasn't the JAL 747 crash in the 80s caused by a faulty bulkhead repair?
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:25 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 23):
Not really true, if they were using incorrect V Speeds (for too low a weight) a normal rotation rate at too slow a speed will hit the tail.


Many possible reasons here:


Overweight


Incorrect Stab Trim, nose low or high.


Incorrect Vspeeds.


Incorrect thrust setting.


Windshear.


Too rapid a rotation.



It's just too early to tell.

  

It's also worth noting that the "counting to 4" on rotation that one person mentioned roughly approximates to a 3 degree per second rate of rotation to a standard takeoff pitch attitude, which is the standard recommendation for every transport category aircraft I've flown. Tailstrike angle is probably somewhere in the 14-15 degree range, assuming the mains are still planted on the ground.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
sr117
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:30 pm

Definitely a nasty strike. Not surprising that you had people hurt and bulkhead damage.

Here's another view I haven't seen posted:

Ouch...
 
RAGAZZO777
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 22):
This is an honest question: Was the aircraft a last-minute swap?

No, it wasn't a last-minute swap. As a matter of fact, Aeroméxico has been deploying the 767 along with the 777 to MAD for a couple of weeks now.
JESÚS, TE AMO !!
 
henpol747
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:29 pm

Sorry if this is a stupid question but:

If the pilot DID rotate too quickly and is at fault here, what happens next? a simple reprimand? a more serious "punishment"?

Thank you for your inputs .....
Vive la France! ¡Viva México!
 
ghost77
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:42 pm

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 22):
This is an honest question: Was the aircraft a last-minute swap? If so, is it possible that the MAD handling agents were expecting a 77E and thus over-loaded the aircraft or loaded it such that the CoG was too far back?
Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 43):
No, it wasn't a last-minute swap. As a matter of fact, Aeroméxico has been deploying the 767 along with the 777 to MAD for a couple of weeks now.

It's just been 2 weeks.

Why?

A grounded 777 in CDG under MX.

What's a real shame is that AM was gaining market share in the MEX-MAD and shit like this happen! The media is doing a lot of noise. So bad, so sad, but the worse is that AM has no 767. Hope for once and for all bring 2 more 767s for the further 787 delays (which I have confirmed information and MAYBE it won't even be delivered this year) and to have enough 767 and a spare aircraft and 2 more 767 will give them the chance to fly more MEX-SCL and CUN-GRU which is doing great and it's been flown with 737's.

Here XA-TOJ in happy days:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ricardo Morales - Aviation Photography of Mexico



I have the sequence of this picture, if possible I'll later upload few seconds before:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ricardo Morales - Aviation Photography of Mexico



It was a little close, I remember that if it had pulled more it might have been XA-TNS tail striking in the news a few years ago.

g77
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
ghost77
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:42 pm

And another close one while landing also few years ago:


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Photo © Ricardo Morales - Aviation Photography of Mexico



g77
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hivue
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting AM744 (Reply 34):
The lack of pressurisation was their warning? Seriously? They didn't notice an impact severe enough to cause this damage and cause injuries in the cabin?


I don't think that was the case. Sounds like lousy journalism to me.
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 36):
True, but at the moment anyway i'm not buying the report that a Tail strike of the magnitude to do this amount of damage was undetected by the crew until they noticed the aircraft wasn't pressurising.
Quoting summa767 (Reply 37):
In his words: A very very hard impact, then normal flight until the oxygen masks dropped passing 10.000 feet. A pilot made an announcement about wearing the masks.

So even if they missed the crunching tail did no one notice the injured crew members? Somehting is very strange here.
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PW100
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:45 pm

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 26):
My shock and dismay about this whole episode is what were the Madrid Air Traffic Controllers doing during this incident. A tail scrape of the magnitude that occurred to this B767 would have been pretty damn obvious to the Tower Controller. . . The Air France Concorde comes to mind. . . .Having operated in and out of Madrid for a while now, my disgust with the professionalism of Spanish ATC and in particular Madrid is at about boiling point. I can't understand why EASA and AENA won't get of their backsides and sort this mess out

I think you are way overreacting without having any facts AT ALL.

ATC will not necessarily look at each aircraft during rotation. They do have many things to worry about, and many responsibilities. However visual check confirmation that none of the 700 daily departures experiences a tail strike is definitely not one of them.

First, it is up to the cockpit crew of the departing aircraft to report they had a problem. Or possibly the next departure if they are ready and lined up - if they are still in opposite direction on the taxiway taxiing down to the runway, obviously they will have no visual contact with the previous departure.

It is entirely possible, and even likely that ATC will give take-off clearance if they were not informed on the tailstrike. Again, nobody in the tower will be sanctioned for not seeing the tailstrike. It is not part of their responsibilities.

Visual confirmation by ATC of a tailstrike is not the main safety net; it is considered a bonus, but not part of their duties.

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PW100
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Clydenairways
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RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD

Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:19 am

Some more updates on AV herald with a couple of eyewitness reports added.

http://avherald.com/h?article=460db38a&opt=0

One of these seems to suggest an early rotation which could narrow down the list of possible reasons a bit.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 48):
Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 26):
My shock and dismay about this whole episode is what were the Madrid Air Traffic Controllers doing during this incident. A tail scrape of the magnitude that occurred to this B767 would have been pretty damn obvious to the Tower Controller. . . The Air France Concorde comes to mind. . . .Having operated in and out of Madrid for a while now, my disgust with the professionalism of Spanish ATC and in particular Madrid is at about boiling point. I can't understand why EASA and AENA won't get of their backsides and sort this mess out

I think you are way overreacting without having any facts AT ALL.

ATC will not necessarily look at each aircraft during rotation. They do have many things to worry about, and many responsibilities. However visual check confirmation that none of the 700 daily departures experiences a tail strike is definitely not one of them.

First, it is up to the cockpit crew of the departing aircraft to report they had a problem. Or possibly the next departure if they are ready and lined up - if they are still in opposite direction on the taxiway taxiing down to the runway, obviously they will have no visual contact with the previous departure.

It is entirely possible, and even likely that ATC will give take-off clearance if they were not informed on the tailstrike. Again, nobody in the tower will be sanctioned for not seeing the tailstrike. It is not part of their responsibilities.

Visual confirmation by ATC of a tailstrike is not the main safety net; it is considered a bonus, but not part of their duties.

Yeah nice little rant by someone jumping to conclusions without having the facts. It's now been established that the rotation point is 4km from the tower view so you wouldn't be able to see detail like a tail striking off the ground. They saw the 767 climbing away and nothing was reported from the crew so they assumed a normal T/O.

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