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AVLAirlineFreq
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Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:44 pm

I fly a fair amount commercially, and spend a lot of time on CRJs for various carriers. I've noticed that the wear and tear on the interior of some of these aircraft is becoming more and more evident. They see a lot of use during the course of a typical day. Of course, I'm sure they are well maintained and any mechanical deficiencies (inside the cabin of the aircraft and elsewhere) are always taken care of.

I'm also very aware that most carriers want to rid themselves of these aircraft as soon as possible, so the likelihood of any of them investing in refurbished interiors is pretty much nil.

So just how much longer will we see the CRJ in use among US legacy carriers? At what point must a carrier invest in new seating, etc. for an aircraft that is not loved, but may still be needed for several years to come? Or is an airline able to selectively replace CRJ seating and other interior components on an individual, as-needed basis? I'm not suggesting that any US legacy carrier and their regional partners are ever going to do a wholesale refurbishment of their regional fleet, but at what point does an airline have to act on this even if they really don't want the aircraft around?
 
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ssteve
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:11 pm

You mean the -100, and -200, I suppose? The -700 and -900 aren't going anywhere.

I'm also curious what the economics of cycle limits and heavy checks are, and whether these frames have a second life on other continents.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:30 pm

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 1):
You mean the -100, and -200, I suppose? The -700 and -900 aren't going anywhere.

I'm also curious what the economics of cycle limits and heavy checks are, and whether these frames have a second life on other continents.

I believe a good number of the -100 and -200 models are indeed near EOL per cycle limits and/or on the cusp of the next heavy check that is not economical when that plane is scheduled to be retired in a couple more years anyway. I don't have a citation for that, but I seem to remember reading something to that effect circa the OH shutdown given their large fleet of very ancient CRJs. In contrast, I believe ZW for example has a relatively new(er) CRJ fleet, so those probably have some life left.

Another issue facing CRJs is that their leasing costs tend to be very close to the CR7/CR9, so it's not even as if they are a good value in their own right (e.g., DL with their MD90 and 717 acquisitions at fire sale prices).
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:31 pm

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 1):
You mean the -100, and -200, I suppose? The -700 and -900 aren't going anywhere.

Yes, correct. I should have been more specific there.

And yes, it will be interesting to see if any of those end up in places like Africa.
 
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rikkus67
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:24 pm

Looking at EIS, we are now over the 20 year mark for early CRJ's! WIth the (originally) shorter routes, and the increased number of rotations these jets have had to endure, no wonder the early models are threadbare. That being said, we'll see these around for a little while yet. Hate them or Love them, they served their original purpose well...
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roseflyer
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:42 pm

One big problem is that the way regional contracts are structured, maintenance is the responsibility of the regional carrier. They have their own maintenance programs, and interior overhaul is expensive. Most regional carriers do not sell their own seats to the public so they don't have the same motivation to keep the interiors in good quality and offer extra features like PTVs, WIFI, reclining seats, new carpet, etc. it is a case of who pays for what.

Most CRJs have the most spartan and cheapest interior offered. I don't think many are being given new seat covers, carpets, and interior refreshes every 5-10 years like mainline airlines do.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
fghtngsiouxatc
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:58 pm

Actually the two CRJ 200s were in better shape than the CRJ 900 I flew on while flying home for Easter. I flew 779CA, a former Comair bird now with Skywest, and it was in decent shape; same with 693BR (which is in the Skywest livery and flies for DL and UA). 903XJ on the other hand was a mess. The plastic seatbacks were cracked and falling apart, the overhead bins were dirtier than most, and the seats were in awful condition.

Does anyone else find the seats on the former XJ CR9s extremely uncomfortable? The seats are so short compared to even the CR2s. Give me a E170/175 over a CRJ 2/7/9 any day!
 
boberito6589
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:17 pm

I've heard that ZW is going to begin refurbishing their CRJ-200 interior starting in the next month
 
Viajero
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:50 am

Quoting fghtngsiouxatc (Reply 6):
903XJ on the other hand was a mess. The plastic seatbacks were cracked and falling apart, the overhead bins were dirtier than most, and the seats were in awful condition.

Does anyone else find the seats on the former XJ CR9s extremely uncomfortable? The seats are so short compared to even the CR2s. Give me a E170/175 over a CRJ 2/7/9 any day!

Wow, I'm surprised as this is a relatively new NextGen aircraft, but as was previously stated, it's all about the operator (i.e. Pinnacle) to maintain the aircraft. As to the 2nd point, it may have been that specific frame that was lacking. I was on 913XJ not long ago and found the seat to be reasonably comfortable, albeit a little narrow. The interior was in great shape with a minimal of unsightly wear and tear. (a few stains, but nothing cracked or broken) My only complaint was that it's a little cramped inside, but not overly so. Compared to the E-Jets, chalk it up to individual preferences. On a side note, I was advised by a senior official with Bombardier that the remaining CRJ900 original generation aircraft operating in the U.S. (OH and some EV birds) will be converted to NextGen by years' end, for what it's worth.
AB3,318,319,320,AT7,BEH,712,721,722, 731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,752, 762,763,772,142,J31,J41,CR1,CR2,CR9, D38,DH1,DH3,D8S,D93,D95,D10,ER4,E75, FK7,F28,100,L10,M81,M82,M83,M87,M88, M90,SF3
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:54 am

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 1):
You mean the -100, and -200, I suppose? The -700 and -900 aren't going anywhere.

I don't think that all of the 50 seat RJ's will go away. There will still be a chunk of them around, simply due to market economics. But it won't be more than 30% of the heyday.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
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foxecho
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:04 am

They are better off being refurbished as reefs in the ocean......

Andrew
..uh, we'll need that to live......
 
m1m2
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:04 pm

I don't think the 50 seat are going away either. According to Bombardier, they were designed to have an "economical" live of 60000 hours. Not sure if cycles were mentioned but I do remember the hours.

I've flown on Skywest a couple of times and it appears as they take good care of their aircraft.
 
Web
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:27 pm

Quoting Viajero (Reply 8):
I was advised by a senior official with Bombardier that the remaining CRJ900 original generation aircraft operating in the U.S. (OH and some EV birds) will be converted to NextGen by years' end, for what it's worth.

Can someone remind me what differences NextGen airframes have over the original model?
 
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mbm3
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting foxecho (Reply 10):
They are better off being refurbished as reefs in the ocean......

Truer words have never been spoken!
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YYCSpotter
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:48 pm

Although not a US airline, Jazz Air recently redid their entire fleet of CRJ 200s and 200s, with leather seats, carpets etc. I flew to YYJ on a non refurbished one and back on one that had been refurbished, and the difference was stunning.
I
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting foxecho (Reply 10):
They are better off being refurbished as reefs in the ocean......

Really? Give me a CRJ200/ERJ145 over a A32x/737 series any day. No middle seats, much quicker boarding/deboarding times.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Woodreau
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:53 pm

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Thread starter):
So just how much longer will we see the CRJ in use among US legacy carriers?

Legacy carriers have never operated any CRJs in the US.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
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JBo
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:23 pm

Quoting woodreau (Reply 16):
Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Thread starter):
So just how much longer will we see the CRJ in use among US legacy carriers?

Legacy carriers have never operated any CRJs in the US.

I think he means the legacy-affiliated regionals.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 17):
Quoting woodreau (Reply 16):
Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Thread starter):
So just how much longer will we see the CRJ in use among US legacy carriers?

Legacy carriers have never operated any CRJs in the US.

I think he means the legacy-affiliated regionals

Thank you. Of course I meant that.

Good grief, this board can be really depressing sometimes.
 
802flyguy
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:57 pm

Refurbishing A CRJ =- Putting lipstick on a pig.

The best way to refurbish a "Satan's Chariot" is to turn it into beer cans, then have some beer.
 
m1m2
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:11 pm

"Really? Give me a CRJ200/ERJ145 over a A32x/737 series any day. No middle seats, much quicker boarding/deboarding times."

I tend to agree. Sure, the seats might not be the biggest and the windows may be a bit low on the fuselage, but the CRJ does what it was meant to do. Shuttle people relatively short distances, quickly and safely.

In my experience it handles turbulence pretty well and generally gives a pretty smooth flight. I also enjoy the high speed on the runway before rotation.
 
jjsilver
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:21 am

I also agree I will take an e jet or CRJ over a 737/320 if I have the choice. Loading times and no middle seat are the reason.

I agree that many of the CRJ 100/200 I see are noticeably worn out on the inside. I think some of it has to do with the way a leather interior ages. Supposedly it has a longer lifespan and yes it may in fact last longer but as it ages it looks like it is aging more than fabric. From my experience leather interiors were really a popular choice in CRJ's. They look really dated when they are worn out. Worn out fabric you notice when sitting in it but worn out leather you notice when walking the aisles and it is all you see when you board.

Does anyone know what an average regional airline type CRJ 100/200 interior would cost to recover seats, install new carpeting, etc? Not adding anything new, just getting it back to a good first impression. You have some interesting math if you multiply that by the size of the fleet. I am guessing it would be shockingly expensive.
 
Viajero
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:04 am

Quoting Web (Reply 12):
Can someone remind me what differences NextGen airframes have over the original model?

The NextGen has larger windows, larger overhead bins and a number of updated components in the cockpit, with more to follow shortly according to BBD.
AB3,318,319,320,AT7,BEH,712,721,722, 731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,752, 762,763,772,142,J31,J41,CR1,CR2,CR9, D38,DH1,DH3,D8S,D93,D95,D10,ER4,E75, FK7,F28,100,L10,M81,M82,M83,M87,M88, M90,SF3
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:53 am

Quoting foxecho (Reply 10):

Hahaha agreed 100% (I love diving wrecks and other strange things  )

That said, some of the comments above reference CRJs being better than 737/320s. That's true if you get the single seat with window/aisle or fall in certain size ranges. I fit fine in any airplane seat, but require more shoulder space than most so...

For me, I enjoy my rides in A320s in particular. But that's neither here nor there
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
CRJ900
Posts: 2013
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RE: Refurbishing A CRJ?

Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:39 am

Quoting Viajero (Reply 8):
On a side note, I was advised by a senior official with Bombardier that the remaining CRJ900 original generation aircraft operating in the U.S. (OH and some EV birds) will be converted to NextGen by years' end, for what it's worth.

Cool, I suggested this here on A.net years ago. They can't do much about the larger windows, I suppose, as that means altering the skin on the fuselage which would require a new certification, but the NG overhead bins and LED lighting should be easy to install when the aircraft are gutted during D-check anyway.
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