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Paolo92
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Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:39 pm

Due to announced strike of the Ver.di union, Lufthansa has already cancelled almost all flights for April 22.
1746 flights listed as cancelled for Monday. Travel information lufthansa.com

Article regarding the strike: on Bloomberg
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Tom_EDDF
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:07 pm

It seems that they are canceling a number of inbound intercont flights tomorrow to have aircraft available for these flights on Monday. I'm booked on LH455 SFO-FRA on Monday and no issues yet, but the same flight has been canceled for Sunday...
 
eastern747
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:35 pm

What over paid group is calling the strike?
 
reifel
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:58 pm

not sure but I believe this time it's ground operations...
That said, LH probably cancels more than necessary. Like Tom said before, i.e. they just keep the LH flight that went to MIA tomorrow there until the strike is over, although it could probably fly back. It's probably easier to just cancel everyhting and have the aircrafts and crews where they should be, rather than to have a big mess which takes days to sort out...
 
conaly
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:04 pm

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 2):
What over paid group is calling the strike?

The union ' Verdi'. This time they fight for about 33000 employees (technicians and service staff). They demand job guarantee and 5,2% more salary.

The only thing LH offers is actually just an additional hour of work per week for the same money and no further guarantees for their jobs. No wonder they prefer to strike. On April 29th they plan to continue to negotiate about that.
Regards, Dimitri
 
Flightlover
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:41 pm

Are there any other confirmed days of strike in addition to April 22nd?

thanks.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:27 pm

Quoting conaly (Reply 4):

Job guarantee? What does that mean? No layoffs etc if economic conditions get WORSE?

What kind of world do some do some people live in???
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
combatshadow
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:41 pm

No job can be guaranteed. That's life.

Some unions serve their purpose. Others are killing companies. You would think in today's economy, most people would be happy to even have a job. Then again...
Bob
 
Wisdom
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:51 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 6):
What kind of world do some do some people live in???

A world where mechanics who certify the airworthiness of airplanes earn less than a cashier or a taxi driver?
(With all due respect to the cashiers and taxi drivers of this world.)

I know the wages at LH Technik. They're piss-poor and shameful, a true image of lack of respect.
LH Technik's profits come at the expense of their technicians and certifying staff.

I'm not only talking about Germany. ,In Budapest, Lufthansa Technik employees are paid less than 600 euro's per month as certifying staff. That is no longer in line with the cost of living in Hungary.

I guess that other ground staff work under similar circumstances. Lufthansa had it coming and they better not be too greedy or else the managers can go fix the airplanes and load the luggage themselves.


A mechanic or engineer who's worrying about his job and his ability to continue to repay his mortgage and his children's tuition is a risk to safety.

It's so easy to blame everything on the unions, etc.... however at Lufthansa Group, people are being punished for loving their jobs. I wish my friends at LH a restful day of strikes and that they negotiate the terms that they ask for. It's not the employees' fault that taxation models across Europe are making personnel cost unsustainable. LH's top shall be reminded of the tough working conditions that ground employees face day in day out, working under rain, snow and wind. How could you be so mean to such dedicated people?

[Edited 2013-04-20 17:00:21]
 
freeze3192
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:50 am

I see A.net's anti-union rhetoric has shown up right on schedule...
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airportugal310
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:36 am

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 8):

Sorry. I don't see the correlation in your post between pay and JOB GUARANTEE?  
Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 9):

Yes. We should all have the same opinion as others. Just so some feelings don't get hurt.  
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
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yyz717
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:44 am

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 8):
I know the wages at LH Technik. They're piss-poor and shameful, a true image of lack of respect.
LH Technik's profits come at the expense of their technicians and certifying staff.

All employees of LH Technik are free to get higher paying jobs at other companies, if they think they deserve more pay.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 8):
A mechanic or engineer who's worrying about his job and his ability to continue to repay his mortgage and his children's tuition is a risk to safety.

LH is a business. Period. Is is not a social safety net to fund the mortgates of German engineers who are buying houses they can't afford.

The airline business is a commodity business. The spoils go to the low cost provider. LH is correct to focus on lowering unit costs.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 6):
Job guarantee? What does that mean? No layoffs etc if economic conditions get WORSE?

What kind of world do some do some people live in???

Exactly, incredible attitude by these unions. They just don't get the realities of the market place.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Logos
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:02 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
Quoting Wisdom (Reply 8):
I know the wages at LH Technik. They're piss-poor and shameful, a true image of lack of respect.
LH Technik's profits come at the expense of their technicians and certifying staff.

All employees of LH Technik are free to get higher paying jobs at other companies, if they think they deserve more pay.

A point all to which pro-union types seem particularly alergic. I'm concerned about the stability of my job, the staggering increases in the cost of my health insurance under pro-union Obama, etc. yet come Monday I'm going to show up and do my job without complaining about it. And, yes, I'm always looking for other opportunities because I don't give more loyalty than I expect from my employer.

I used to live in Germany and wondered exactly how the economy functioned with the short work weeks and short work lives (retirement generally at 62) 6 weeks of vacation and a national holiday seemingly every other week. It was a lovely dream while it lasted but demographics and global competition are giving a rather unpleasant wake up call. The unions continue to hit the snooze button.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:45 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 6):
What kind of world do some do some people live in???

The unrealistic world of dreamland it seems.

This is why some companies are in such bad shape, as they are bullied into accepting terms that make no financial sense in the long run.

Unfortunately, as much as many employees/unions seem to think they understand business and economics, the reality is often very different.
 
Tom_EDDF
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:03 am

Quoting Logos (Reply 12):
I used to live in Germany and wondered exactly how the economy functioned with the short work weeks and short work lives (retirement generally at 62) 6 weeks of vacation and a national holiday seemingly every other week. It was a lovely dream while it lasted but demographics and global competition are giving a rather unpleasant wake up call. The unions continue to hit the snooze button.

Seems you lived in Germany before significant cutbacks took place to reform social security and the labor market. Legal retirement age is 67 now and most people retire between age 62 and 65, I'd say.

I worked for a silicon valley based company for more than 10 years, including a transfer to the US. To me it always felt like over the course of a year I worked about the same number of hours, with more holidays and longer work days in Germany, whereas in the US I usually went home earlier, especially on Fridays. I liked the US scheme better, though.

Slightly more on topic - the transportation unions drive me nuts, it's becoming as bad as it used to be in France and it's the travelers suffering from that. German railway workers and municipal public transport unions also go on strike frequently it seems, and sometimes with demands that are outragous, like near double digit or higher raises or job guarantees that are unrealistic in a volatile industry like aviation.

Though I'm an aviation nut I turned down a job offer in the airline industry after graduating because I did not want to be in an industry that is very specilized, yet in crisis mode more often than not (what was I thinking chosing IT instead   )

Cheers, T
 
Wisdom
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:16 am

I'm amazed by these comments.
By all means, let it be clear that I'm an anti-union guy.

The issue in Europe is not the unions nor the companies. It's the government taxation and the social welfare system.

People on welfare get 1300 euro's take home pay while staying at home doing nothing.
People who work as aircraft engineers earn 1600 take home pay.
Between rent or mortgage (600 euros minimum), food (600 euro's minimum) and other expenses, even aircraft engineers can barely make ends meet.

In the meanwhile, the airlines/corporations are overwhelmed by employer taxation, paying 3200 euro's of total wages, of which half is taxes and half is take-home pay for the employee.

Then there's competition like Ryanair and Emirates, who benefit of much lower taxation.
To stay competitive, corporations look for ways to mitigate this higher taxation.


So should they take it from the employees who can barely make ends meet and who are asking for a modest pay increase to keep up with rising living expenses? Is that really reasonable?

The European taxation and social system is reaching its limits.
It's neither the employer nor the employee's fault.
But it's impossible to attack the government and the anger is huge.

I suggest that LH and other European, their employees and the public in general should take the government hostage. Everyday new resources are created in Europe through services, farming, etc... However Angela Merkel and her generation of politicians have been taught since their little age that printing money and inflation is a bad thing.
When you create new resources or new labour, you create new wealth. New wealth should be represented by new tender. If you don't keep churning out new tender while producing new resources, you must export that new resource to receive tender in exchange and keep the balance. However, Europe has a negative trade balance, so the only way to compensate it is by printing tender.
Since the newly created resources have a higher resale value than imported resources, such creation of tender does not contribute to inflation, for as long as a balance is maintained between prices, offer and demand.

A lot of those new resources are absorbed by people on welfare programs who eat, live and drink at the expense of newly created resources. Lower the taxes dramatically and employers will be able to employ more people for the same cost, while employees each earn more. Reduce welfare pay-outs at the same time and create one-off incentives for people who start a new job after a long period on welfare.

We also need to reform the transportation systems, stop hauling freight over the road and expand, improve the freight rail network. We waste too much gas driving in long queue's, accidents all over the place with trucks.
Truck drivers can become train drivers and logistic workers, the efficiency can be reached without loss of jobs.

We may not be far from a social revolution.

[Edited 2013-04-20 21:39:56]
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:20 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 10):
Yes. We should all have the same opinion as others. Just so some feelings don't get hurt.

I think what he meant is the usual 'unions-are-evil-out-to-destroy-the-world' drivel straight from reply 2, without even the slightest knowledge of the nature of the dispute.
Not that we're not used to it here.

I'm not a big union fan, but I do understand their usefulness. Management of large companies will always be out to squeeze labor cost. They usually get what they want one way or another. I can't really imagine a place where these companies would be absolutely free to act as they pleased vis a vis their employees, without even the slightest constraint from governments, regulatory agencies or unionized worker groups.

So there is always two sides to a story and plenty of nuances. When well paid IB pilots go on strike when the entire company is crumbling around them, that's a thing. When underpaid ground staff (who live in an expensive place) go on strike because their employer is trying to gnaw at their already poor quality of life standard after posting nice profits, that's another one.

I'd like to see the 'they can just get another job' crowd walk a mile in these people's shoes before firing up the flame throwers.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
PHX787
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:21 am

I wanna know Wilco737's opinion of this, since he's a senior LH F/O (I think?)
How does this effect people like him?
(if you're not at liberty to explain, that's totally understandable   )

Quoting combatshadow (Reply 7):
No job can be guaranteed. That's life.

This. Japan tried this for a long time and they got a huge wakeup call during the 90s recession. The "job for life" ideal was soon crushed in Japan....
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Wisdom
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:55 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 10):
Sorry. I don't see the correlation in your post between pay and JOB GUARANTEE?  

There is none. Job guarrantee is guarrantee of income and stability.
This is not about a job for life as many here imply.

Job guarrantee at airlines is a guarrantee of short-term job stability.
As someone implied earlier, most of these people work in specialty sectors. It's not a taxi-driver job where if you're kicked out of a company, you just go to one of the dozen other companies in the same city and get a job, or even go self-employed.

There are just no job opportunities even if people are ready to move because in Europe no one is hiring.

If you have a 40 year mortgage on an uberexpensive house as has become the standard across Europe, and repaying over 1500 euro's per month, welfare checks aren't going to be sufficient.

Even worse is the way HR in Europe is becoming arrogant. If you're an aircraft engineer or a pilot (even frozen ATPL) you won't stand a chance at bottom level jobs in other general industries, where you would be considered overqualified, yet less competent than people who are less qualified but have experience or degrees in those industries.
A lot of pilots have an IT background and many of them are moving back to the IT sector, because there's nothing left in the airline industry. It seems that these two sectors are compatible.
However, McDonald's won't hire you if they know that you worked as aircraft engineer, because you wouldn't fit with other people who work there.

Airlines also have responsiblities because they often promote these specialty jobs. You can't promote the job and make people specialise themselves in it, only to kick them out at the first sight of a downturn. Managements tend to overreact for impending downturns, fire too many people, only to realise that they can't find new know-how fast enough.

Young people are leaving this industry in masses. There's just no future in it.

[Edited 2013-04-20 22:07:15]
 
hoons90
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:57 am

The links above suggests that some flights (including long haul) will operate. Which ones?
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okay
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:11 am

In regards to discussion above about job guarantee, I think what is meant is a condition employer and employee party can agree on negotiations. Under this condition during a fixed period employee cannot fire people affected by that contract. In Finland it is called redundancy protection, and for example Finnair Cabin Crew has such a clause in their present contract, protecting the employees till Jan 2014. I think this is relatively widely used in Europe, I do not know how it is in the US. Anyway, if this is meant, guarantee is a wrong word to use, in my opinion. Indeed, no such thing exists in job market nowadays.

I think it is sad employees have to introduce such a clause, but it tells the cold story of how present time management see employees merely as an expense not as a vital part of the company.

[Edited 2013-04-20 22:13:24]

[Edited 2013-04-20 22:17:19]
 
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yyz717
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:27 am

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 15):
Then there's competition like Ryanair and Emirates, who benefit of much lower taxation.

LH employees are doing the same job as the Ryanair employees. LH employees thus should not be making more $ than their counterparts at FR.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 18):
If you have a 40 year mortgage on an uberexpensive house as has become the standard across Europe, and repaying over 1500 euro's per month, welfare checks aren't going to be sufficient.

Then don't buy the house.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 18):
Airlines also have responsiblities because they often promote these specialty jobs. You can't promote the job and make people specialise themselves in it, only to kick them out at the first sight of a downturn.

No, airlines are responsible for paying you your next paycheque and nothing more. Just like you can resign from any job with 2 weeks notice, an airline can similarly lay you off. An airline is a business, not a social welfare provider.

Quoting okAY (Reply 20):
it tells the cold story of how present time management see employees merely as an expense not as a vital part of the company.

What about the the cold story of overpaid airline workers unwilling to work harder to improve their productivity so the hard-working shareholders (the owners) can realize capital gain on their investment? THIS is a much colder story.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
okay
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:11 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 21):
LH employees are doing the same job as the Ryanair employees. LH employees thus should not be making more $ than their counterparts at FR.

Wrong. In any industry there are workers doing the same or similar job and receive different salary as well as different benefits.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 21):
Then don't buy the house.

So, what you are suggesting people should just have their lives on hold for the mighty company? Not go after their personal dreams? Wow, you are one advocate for the management. I hope you get treated well by your company. The fall might be high.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 21):
What about the the cold story of overpaid airline workers unwilling to work harder to improve their productivity so the hard-working shareholders (the owners) can realize capital gain on their investment? THIS is a much colder story.

Oh, when do also the critics of airline employees leave the golden era of airline industry that they demand airline employees to leave all the time and wake up to see the reality that airline employees are not over paid, many of the benefits once had are long gone and a normal employee of an airline in any airline nowadays face fear of cuts in salary and benefits that in many cases have been cut already before, not to mention the fear of losing one's job that is particular in training and difficult to replace by changing industries.

Airline management also have responsibility to its human capital, not only financial capital, IMHO.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:40 am

Quoting okAY (Reply 22):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 21):
LH employees are doing the same job as the Ryanair employees. LH employees thus should not be making more $ than their counterparts at FR.


Wrong. In any industry there are workers doing the same or similar job and receive different salary as well as different benefits.

Then LH will continue to lose money, and FR will continue to grow and grow.

Quoting okAY (Reply 22):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 21):
Then don't buy the house.

So, what you are suggesting people should just have their lives on hold for the mighty company? Not go after their personal dreams?

No, I'm suggesting that people live within their means. If they feel they are not making enough money, they can get more qualifications or a new job. But the airline passengers are unwilling to pay higher fares which means airlines can't afford higher salaries. It's called the market place, aka the real world.

Quoting okAY (Reply 22):
Airline management also have responsibility to its human capital, not only financial capital, IMHO.

Nope. Airlines answer to their shareholders. Period. Your employer only owes your next pay cheque (which may be your last).
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
sbworcs
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:51 am

Quoting okAY (Reply 22):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 21):Then don't buy the house.
So, what you are suggesting people should just have their lives on hold for the mighty company? Not go after their personal dreams?

I read this as if you can't afford the house - don't buy it and then expect your employer to increase your wages to pay for.

I, at the moment, have to live with parents as I can't afford to move house. Will never be able to buy a house because I can't afford to. BUT I will not strike to make my employer make me be able to afford a house.
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:32 am

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 8):
A mechanic or engineer who's worrying about his job and his ability to continue to repay his mortgage and his children's tuition is a risk to safety.

Really? I can only really speak for the US, but there aren't very many people who don't have these issues. Engineers, doctors, lawyers. They all have these worries.
 
okapi
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:32 am

Provided I am not affiliated to any union and work as a (very) flexible free-lancer, hence no paid holidays, social benefits apart from the minimum health care, I don't understand the union bashing habits of some here. I guess those who speak out here either don't work in the airline industry or have never been laid off on economic results grounds.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 6):

Some people live or at least try to live in a world of social and economic progress I'm amazed at how split this world is when it comes to working conditions. Maybe Anglo-saxon vs the rest of Europe. However, go tell pilots who have spent big money to finance their tuition and who are then told economic conditions do not guarantee their job anymore. Is a world à la Ryanair the answer? Well, do your homeworks and see how it is there, you'll be very surprised.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 8):

I fully agree with you.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 21):

I'm afraid your living conditions in Canada are better than those in the US or even Ireland. I wonder if you've ever tried living in a different manner. Maybe you could try China with chinese wages...Relax, we're talking about people with mortgages and or children and a highly qualified job. It seems you have none of these.

The real problem here is capital ownership and company management. Since banks, pension funds and other non-aviation related businesses invest in airlines, their main goal will not be working conditions or airline development but pure profit. Check out who does what at LH or many other airlines for instance: http://investor-relations.lufthansag...n/aktie/shareholder-structure.html
 
turn720
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:47 am

Quoting okAY (Reply 22):
So, what you are suggesting people should just have their lives on hold for the mighty company? Not go after their personal dreams?

I have watched "mighty" companies go out of business and their employees with their very important jobs become unemployed as a result. You can be sure that LH's competitors are secretly dancing in their boardrooms right now.
It's a global free market economy my friends.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:51 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 6):
Job guarantee? What does that mean? No layoffs etc if economic conditions get WORSE?

What kind of world do some do some people live i

This "job guarantee" issue is one of the most stupid items on the union agendaq. How can a company guarantee jobs if that guarantee is not backe dup by a guarantee from the customers? A jpob guaranmtee is like an uncovered check. Nothing else. Aksing na company for job guarantee is asking to committ fraud.

That by unions, who once owned a business empire with banks, construction companies and department stores whoich they completely drove against the wall in the 70s/early 80s. Which means nothing less than that they e,mbezzled the union dues paid by their members.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 8):
I know the wages at LH Technik. They're piss-poor and shameful, a true image of lack of respect.
LH Technik's profits come at the expense of their technicians and certifying staff.

This is one of the big mis-conceptions unions make. paying low wages means in their little world increasing the profits of the companies.

BS. In real life paying market wages means that the company can compete and stay in business. That way, jobs are secure until the union decides to kill the jobs by excessive demands and strikes.


In our social welfare state, a mechanic who takes home € 1600,00 costs the company about € 4000,00 per month. That's a rule of thumb, in large companies like ÖLH that might be even more. With that kind of income, he already subsidies the guy who does not work and takes home, better gets while staying home on the dole € 1300,00.

It is not the fault of the company that the state takes more than 50% of a low median income employee.
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reifel
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:02 am

Quoting Logos (Reply 12):
I used to live in Germany and wondered exactly how the economy functioned with the short work weeks and short work lives (retirement generally at 62) 6 weeks of vacation and a national holiday seemingly every other week. It was a lovely dream while it lasted but demographics and global competition are giving a rather unpleasant wake up call. The unions continue to hit the snooze button.

This is just not true anymore these days. It might be for very lucky people, but the reality is that people are doing overtime (often not paid or "part of the salary"), that holiday per law is 24 days (still more than other countries I know, but by far not 6 weeks!), and that retirement with 62 is something that your grand parents have experienced...

I'm not pro Union either, but I can understand that people can get unhappy and may show. With big corporations (and smaller one probably, too), it's all about generating money for the shareholders and cutting costs. Sure, if people think they can get more somewhere else, they should go somewhere else, but let's face it: Why should another company pay more, if the competition is also paying less. In he result unless there is a huge demand for certain skills which companies are willing to pay for, everyone will pay them less. Or they just move the jobs to other countries. Yes, I know, everyone is free to move with the whole family and great romanian skills to Romania after all. I hear they are paying well.

And as for job guarantee, that's a peculiar topic. That said, if companies invest in people, i.e. apprenticeships, or paying them a training or whatever, it's not unheard of that they expect their employees to work for them at least a few years, which is often written in the contract. Why shouldn't this be valid the other way round? Some employees also invest money in order to work for a corporation (moving costs, higher living costs in Rhein/Main area, possible additional trainings they paid themselves). We're not talking about 10 years, but a few ones. I do not really support that, but I can understand the motivation.

[Edited 2013-04-21 02:06:42]
 
okay
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:06 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 24):
Nope. Airlines answer to their shareholders. Period. Your employer only owes your next pay cheque (which may be your last).

Funnily, such a comment actually strengthen the idea of unions. If a company is only interested in the shareholders and making the profit as big for them as possible, then employees can only be interested in pay cheque and make sure it is as big as possible. Shareholders should remember someone needs to do the actual job, even if it is undisputed fact, the importance of capital that shareholders offer to a company.

Going a little side track here. I hope they manage to resolve the situation asap.
 
reifel
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:20 am

Quoting okAY (Reply 31):
Funnily, such a comment actually strengthen the idea of unions. If a company is only interested in the shareholders and making the profit as big for them as possible, then employees can only be interested in pay cheque and make sure it is as big as possible. Shareholders should remember someone needs to do the actual job, even if it is undisputed fact, the importance of capital that shareholders offer to a company.

Going a little side track here. I hope they manage to resolve the situation asap.

Not really agree. A lot of companies will still make higher profits, which part of it is reducing costs. Lower wages, layoffs, outsourcing, relocation, whatever makes sense will gain even more profit, even if the company is already running well. I do not say that this doesn't make sense, especially in the airline industry which faces a lot of difficulty, but I do not believe that huge corporations are willing to pay a lot of money even if they're doing well or if they can cut more costs, as long as the work still gets done...
 
okapi
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:22 am

Just to understand, do unions along with the airline have an idea of the extra cost linked to flight cancellations? Rebooking stranded passengers, extending ticket validity and or refund, crew hotels and meals while away from base, etc?
 
reifel
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:36 am

Okapi, I believe both do clearly do. Unions probably do not care, as they want to make pressure, although somehow it's probably not a good idea to make an employer bleed... If striking wouldn't hurt, well then no need to do so.

As for Lufthansa, I believe they clearly know what they are doing. On the long run, if it helps to save 2 percents more salary in the next 5 years or so, then it may be worth to cancel all flights during one day and taking into account bad press. I do even believe LH cancelled more than necessary. Usually not 99% people follow the strike. That said, it's probably easier just to cancel almost everyhting and knowing already today where planes and crew will be and to restart the whole operation organized and within one day. I.e. MIA-FRA today is cancelled, although today is no strike. They just leave it one day more on Miami. They can rebook quite a lot of passengers on LX/SN/OS which then remains in LH group anyway. And for the rest, they can rebook on the Atlantic Joint Venture... Most of the passengers can change their travel plans, and those who can't can be rebooked. I was able to get all of our passengers out of HNL and out of MIA rebooked without any issues. Sure it is anoying to fly MIA-IAD-FRA instead of MIA-FRA nonstop, but no real issue here...

The only thing I really don't understand is how airlines themselves and even courts can see strike as force majeure and thereofre no possibilty to claim compensation. I do understand this is true if other staff that airline is depending from is on strike (i.e. air traffic control, security staff recentely etc). However if you are in a conflict with your own employees, and if you are ready to provoke a strike from your own employees, then it's a housemade thing and in my opinion you can't call this force majeure and you need to compensate your passengers. I seem to be alone with this opinion however...
 
airlittoralguy
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:39 am

When reading the comments on this page one can clearly see the world is divided in two :

those who accept the reality of today's economic rules and economic environment.

those who don't. and who are asking for more because they believe they are entitled to more (because they have to pay for a mortgage, because they are highly educated, because they have childrens...)

While lufthansa employees work and pay conditions seem very poor to say the least, in today's Europe it's leave your job or shut up.

That's where our continent is these days.
Normandie : La r�©unification, maintenant ! http://www.mouvement-normand.com/
 
reifel
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:50 am

Quoting airlittoralguy (Reply 35):
Quoting airlittoralguy (Reply 35):

True and very sad. The problem is way bigger anyway. We all work too much, way more than necessary. Everyhting is automated where it can be instead of having humans doing the job. Our lives are all about job, not much remains beside. Not too bad if people want to fight while they have the chance to do so. In 10 years we talk again and strikes will be forbidden by law. Manifestations forbidden due to silly laws. Goverment will know everyhting about you and you will not be able to flight anymore, for anything. And our kids will ask us why we allowed that. And we will them them we had no choice becuase that's the way the world is these days...
 
Jalap
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:07 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 24):
No, I'm suggesting that people live within their means. If they feel they are not making enough money, they can get more qualifications or a new job. But the airline passengers are unwilling to pay higher fares which means airlines can't afford higher salaries. It's called the market place, aka the real world.

No, your life is the real world. The marketplace is engineered as a mean to get stuff organised.

It's been engineered in times when the economy wasn't as global as it is today. Also, over time the marketplace seems to have forgotten what it's purpose is: creating order in people's lives. Nowadays the marketplace mainly serves itself, which I find quite absurd. The marketplace is flawed, it needs a serious redesign on global level.

In Europe, the more global an industry is, the more it's suffering. Most European governments make sure that the fate of the people isn't too much in the hands of that self serving marketplace. The cost of that stability & safety for people is taxation. Now the airline industry is a very global one. Hence, European companies have problems staying competitive. Does that mean that workers in the industry should accept everything? I think not. How the market works today: if the airline can't compete in the global marketplace, then the airline should quit. But I think it would be better to have a new look at the global marketplace and find a way to get to fair competition where exploitation of people no longer is stimulated.
 
Jalap
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:15 pm

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 15):
People on welfare get 1300 euro's take home pay while staying at home doing nothing.
People who work as aircraft engineers earn 1600 take home pay.

Don't do that. You know very well that 1300 on welfare only happens if you just lost a good paying job. After a few months the number starts moving way south.
 
Wisdom
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:29 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
In our social welfare state, a mechanic who takes home € 1600,00 costs the company about € 4000,00 per month. That's a rule of thumb, in large companies like ÖLH that might be even more. With that kind of income, he already subsidies the guy who does not work and takes home, better gets while staying home on the dole € 1300,00.

It is not the fault of the company that the state takes more than 50% of a low median income employee.

However, is it the employee's fault? The problem is that in tough operating environments, corporations take it out on the easy targets, ie their employees, instead of fighting the government.
By all means, I don't imply that government should give bail-outs or special treatments. It's just that taxation is killing business and that's the real culprit.

Quoting reifel (Reply 32):
Not really agree. A lot of companies will still make higher profits, which part of it is reducing costs. Lower wages, layoffs, outsourcing, relocation, whatever makes sense will gain even more profit, even if the company is already running well. I do not say that this doesn't make sense, especially in the airline industry which faces a lot of difficulty, but I do not believe that huge corporations are willing to pay a lot of money even if they're doing well or if they can cut more costs, as long as the work still gets done...

This is the general mentality.
In the MRO I used to work for, the guys who got the best grades and assessments during training have given the company the infamous salute and left for other industries. You lose talent, and talent is something that you can't buy.

Quoting reifel (Reply 30):
And as for job guarantee, that's a peculiar topic. That said, if companies invest in people, i.e. apprenticeships, or paying them a training or whatever, it's not unheard of that they expect their employees to work for them at least a few years, which is often written in the contract. Why shouldn't this be valid the other way round? Some employees also invest money in order to work for a corporation (moving costs, higher living costs in Rhein/Main area, possible additional trainings they paid themselves).

I would also add the training itself. Investing in training comes from both sides. For the company it's money, for the employee it's initiative and hard work. My first months in the MRO business were hell and believe me when I say that it's much worse than "back to school" or "starting a new job" somewhere else.

Quoting reifel (Reply 34):
The only thing I really don't understand is how airlines themselves and even courts can see strike as force majeure and thereofre no possibilty to claim compensation. I do understand this is true if other staff that airline is depending from is on strike (i.e. air traffic control, security staff recentely etc). However if you are in a conflict with your own employees, and if you are ready to provoke a strike from your own employees, then it's a housemade thing and in my opinion you can't call this force majeure and you need to compensate your passengers. I seem to be alone with this opinion however...

+1

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
This is one of the big mis-conceptions unions make. paying low wages means in their little world increasing the profits of the companies.

BS. In real life paying market wages means that the company can compete and stay in business. That way, jobs are secure until the union decides to kill the jobs by excessive demands and strikes.

This could be one thing. But sometimes business models aren't sustainable and top management get impossible missions to turn them around. The easiest way to make them more sustainable is to cut staff costs.
The hard and more sustainable way is to change what makes the business model unsustainable, but that requires a lot of initiative and risk-taking by the management.

Isn't that how Ryanair has become what it is today?

Regarding taxation:
As strong an organisation as LH can easily call out other major corporations to join them, to march up to "capitol hill" and tell their politicians that if they don't change taxation rules, they will shut down their companies and cause a major social bloodbath.

It's time to stop the "divide and conquer" method of European governments, and for corporations and their employees to work together against government to restore balance. We need to stop giving away more than half our wages to the government and corporations need to gain their competitiveness back.
 
okapi
Posts: 161
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:16 pm

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 39):

Wisdom, the problem is not how much tax you pay as a company or an individual. It's more what does the state or government will do with that money. Welfare, education, armed forces, basic ground infrastructures, etc...all this costs a lot of money. Airlines need airports and ATC to fly along with highly educated people, is all paid by taxpayers. Reifel is right when saying it's always the weakest ones paying. Please see my post up above with the link to the LH corporate website and check out who owns what. In most cases today with international corporations, shareholders are somewhat different than what we think they are.

"Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):"
I don't agree with you, sorry. Customers are taught to go for the best deal but not to understand why such prices. I was born at times when many goods were still built in Europe. It's just become way easier for companies to sustain their own financial growth through massive outsourcing. Dell's just done that leaving Ireland for Poland. Now, go tell Irish IT workers to either learn polish and live in a new country or...die asking for unemployment benefits.

What a bleak future!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:19 pm

Quoting okapi (Reply 27):
Relax, we're talking about people with mortgages and or children and a highly qualified job. It seems you have none of these.

Sure, I do. But I live within my means.

Quoting turn720 (Reply 28):
You can be sure that LH's competitors are secretly dancing in their boardrooms right now.
It's a global free market economy my friends.

Absolutely! They stand to gain short term customers with the strike, and possible longer term with passengers inconvenieced by this strike.

Quoting okAY (Reply 31):
Shareholders should remember someone needs to do the actual job
Quoting okapi (Reply 40):
Now, go tell Irish IT workers to either learn polish and live in a new country or...die asking for unemployment benefits.

The Irish IT workers can start their own businesses, or change industries, or move elsewhere. So many opportunities for them. Same with LH employers -- they can get jobs elsewhere if they want.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
factsonly
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:43 pm

Quoting okapi (Reply 40):
Airlines need airports and ATC to fly along with highly educated people, is all paid by taxpayers.

Sorry, but this is incorrect - certainly for Europe.

Aviation - and particularly European Air Transport - pays its own way through airport fees and ATC charges.

In Europe aviation infrastructure is financed by the air transport industry itself through various charges, contrary to European rail and road infrastructure which is often state funded.

In the USA domestic flights have no air navigation charge - as this is state funded through the FAA. Airports do charge landing fees.

Many other nations have airport charges and ATC charges that do not fully cover the true cost of operation & investment of their air transport system and thus government subsidies of various forms exist.
 
ozguy
Posts: 377
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 41):

Quoting okapi (Reply 27):
Relax, we're talking about people with mortgages and or children and a highly qualified job. It seems you have none of these.

Sure, I do. But I live within my means.


No, you live within your current means, as do many others, but even the cautious could get caught out in current state of the world. If you were laid off with 2 weeks notice, and worked in a highly specialised job, albeit one with little qualifications that transfer into other job markets, you probably wouldn't be so casual about making your comments. If you did have children and mortgage, and had any idea about airline jobs, you'd realise the stress some people in some departments are under.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:00 pm

Quoting Jalap (Reply 38):
Don't do that. You know very well that 1300 on welfare only happens if you just lost a good paying job. After a few months the number starts moving way south.

What you mean is unemployemnt insurance, for which the empolee contributes monthly (and the employer as well). It is an insurance like car or healkth insurance and what you get depends on your last pay.

That number shown is for welfare for a family with a child, depoending on where they live the city pays for the appartment, for the 2 adults and for the child. You get that without paying a single cent into the "pot". Foi families with more children it pays NOT to work and rely on the welfare instead. The average people with incomes of € 2K already contribute to those who stick their finger all day long intio the nose or elsewhere.


Quoting Wisdom (Reply 39):

However, is it the employee's fault? The problem is that in tough operating environments, corporations take it out on the easy targets, ie their employees, instead of fighting the government.

We are never talking about fault. We talk about costs and costs have to be kept down in order to be able to compete on the market.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 39):
Regarding taxation:
As strong an organisation as LH can easily call out other major corporations to join them, to march up to "capitol hill" and tell their politicians that if they don't change taxation rules, they will shut down their companies and cause a major social bloodbath.

Are you dreaming? Companies and organisations and that includes unions can lobby, the latter organise marches. Companies hardly ever do.
powered by Eierlikör
 
Wisdom
Posts: 179
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:04 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 44):
Are you dreaming? Companies and organisations and that includes unions can lobby, the latter organise marches. Companies hardly ever do.

I don't want to go out on the record with "I have a dream" type comments, but reality is people are becoming angry.
Angry people can make a difference, we can look back to 1789 when the French had their first revolution and abolished the French Kingdom. Even more recently, look at what went on in Lybia and is going on right now in Syria.

Europe is reaching the same levels and some day this continuing increase in taxation in parallel with decreasing government services and digressing health care coverage (we have to pay more and more each year for our visit to the doctor!) will lead to anarchy.

Our history books tell us that Stalin and his communist regime was very demanding on its people.
Are we in a better world today in Europe?
Can we still claim that we're working to live and not living to work for the government?
Can we still claim that government is there for us and not that we're there for the government?
Can we still achieve our dreams or are our dreams farther away than they have ever been?

Quoting Jalap (Reply 37):
No, your life is the real world. The marketplace is engineered as a mean to get stuff organised.

It's been engineered in times when the economy wasn't as global as it is today. Also, over time the marketplace seems to have forgotten what it's purpose is: creating order in people's lives. Nowadays the marketplace mainly serves itself, which I find quite absurd. The marketplace is flawed, it needs a serious redesign on global level.

In Europe, the more global an industry is, the more it's suffering. Most European governments make sure that the fate of the people isn't too much in the hands of that self serving marketplace. The cost of that stability & safety for people is taxation. Now the airline industry is a very global one. Hence, European companies have problems staying competitive. Does that mean that workers in the industry should accept everything? I think not. How the market works today: if the airline can't compete in the global marketplace, then the airline should quit. But I think it would be better to have a new look at the global marketplace and find a way to get to fair competition where exploitation of people no longer is stimulated.

Could anyone ever put it in better terms? Very beautiful.
 
moby147
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:30 am

RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:19 pm

I hate to get back on track but.....

My wife flew with LH last year to Tokyo (rtn) from MAN they happily flew her from NAT to MUN then left her (along with many, many others) in the airport to sleep on the floor overnight.

They then flew her next day by another airline.

It took 3 weeks to get her luggage back.

Moral of the story of that strike means my wife will NEVER fly with LH again I wonder how many more will never fly with them after this strike.

Regards

Moby147
 
s5daw
Posts: 345
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting Jalap (Reply 37):
It's been engineered in times when the economy wasn't as global as it is today. Also, over time the marketplace seems to have forgotten what it's purpose is: creating order in people's lives. Nowadays the marketplace mainly serves itself, which I find quite absurd. The marketplace is flawed, it needs a serious redesign on global level.

The market has been global for quite a while... There are records of international trade all way back in the 19th century.

What is different today is the pace of progress. Up till the end of 18th entury the progress was quite slow. If you were good at one job, you could stick to it. Then the steam machines came and many people were made redundant... and the labor market settled for a while... The change was kind of bearable even during the 20th century... but now, things have exploded. You learn a skill, you get a job and you are out of demand in a few years. Aviation is actually quite slow, still, if you are a pilot not much changes.. try working as a software developer.

What I'm saying is, market hasn't changed, it always employed only the people it needed, but the progress was slow enough you could start and end your career not only in the same field, but actually at the same company.

So... we are at the end of an era of lifetime stability. The social security system of the past just doesn't work with ageing population. The government can't do anything about it, neither can businesses. And demand for certain skills is also vanishing rapidly as new skills are required... This caught many people unprepared. The market is still unprepared - e.g., the mortgage used to work in the era of stability. Now it doesn't since nothing is really stable. So we probably need another way to finance our homes.

I have no idea what the future is bringing. I know it's going to be very different than most people imagine, specially in Europe.
 
reifel
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RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:06 pm

Quoting moby147 (Reply 46):
I hate to get back on track but.....

My wife flew with LH last year to Tokyo (rtn) from MAN they happily flew her from NAT to MUN then left her (along with many, many others) in the airport to sleep on the floor overnight.

They then flew her next day by another airline.

It took 3 weeks to get her luggage back.

Moral of the story of that strike means my wife will NEVER fly with LH again I wonder how many more will never fly with them after this strike.

Regards

Moby147

I do not doubt at all this happened and it's unacceptable. That said, it happens in this quite strange airline industry quite a lot, so it's not a LH specific problem.. At least if you use a europe an carrier we have laws that, which i.e. you don't have like that in the US., which guarantees at least hotels or other prestations and in some cases compensation. Then airlines will not nalways inform you about this, you need to be informed yourself and go to court in some cases, which is unacceptable.

But be assured, if something similar would happen with a US carrier, you'll be in the same situation, too, and you will not even have a lot of laws which you can count on to get you compensated.

Still sorry to hear about that story and I can understand why you have a bad image from LH. As an agent booking a lot of flights I can still assure you that LH is one of the airlines that in general seem to take better care of their passengers in this world.. But when it comes to airlines "better" is very relative  
 
moby147
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:30 am

RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:57 pm

Quoting reifel (Reply 49):
strange airline industry quite a lot, so it's not a LH specific problem.. At least if you use a europe an carrier we have laws that, which i.e. you don't have like that in the US., which guarantees at least hotels or other prestations and in some cases compensation. Then airlines will not nalways inform you about this, you need to be informed yourself and go to court in some cases, which is unacceptable.

But be assured, if something similar would happen with a US carrier, you'll be in the same situation, too, and you will not even have a lot of laws which you can count on to get you compensated.

Still sorry to hear about that story and I can understand why you have a bad image from LH. As an agent booking a lot of flights I can still assure you that LH is one of the airlines that in general seem to take better care of their passengers in this world.. But when it comes to airlines "better" is very relative

I never said I had a bad image of LH, but my wife will Never travel with them again irrespective of how much extra it costs me   

She received NO compensation as it was a STRIKE not a delay

I would never again trust an Airline who went out on strike with MY holidays being ruined.

I have worked in the holiday transport industry for 30 years & have never been on strike, but I have worked for some poor companies for some very poor wages.

Good luck to those who are striking for more money, I just hope they will still have a job at the end of it.

Regards

Moby147
 
okapi
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:15 pm

RE: Lufthansa Cancels Almost All Flights 22APR

Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:50 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 41):

Sir, with all due respect, I'm worried by your comments. I am in parenthood and I do have a rent to pay and I'm a freelancer. It's not just a choice of life, it's a fact. I work in a troubled industry (corporate events) and like many others, the crisis has hit us all very badly. You may want to cross the pond and see for yourself as others have commented after you how luxury life can be for any average worker. How many businesses have you started lately? We're talking about LH ground staff with a certain degree of education and they are fighting for their standards of living which certainly does not include many high-end benefits. I'm against strikes but I know for sure that these often come as a last resort when management has failed to reach a proper agreement with its workforce.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 42):

Factsonly? Please buy a plane ticket in Europe and see who really pays taxes. The "almighty" passenger is charged for just about everything. And passenger taxes fund the everyday management of an airport, sometimes pays part of the cost of building the infrastructure. The rest of most European budgets come from public financing and royalties on all commercial activities in the airport itself. No wonder coffee or water is so expensive when bought at airports vs street shops. Moreover, an airport is not just made of runways and taxiways. You need power, security forces, roads, trains or other forms of public transportation. No wonder Ryanair's business model calls on airports to fund part of the "marketing" costs to operate.

You can read some interesting points of view here : https://www.aci-europe.org/policy/position-papers.html?view=group&group=1&id=6 and here too : http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~jmuell...rt%20Entry%20and%20Exit_jul_08.pdf