JU068
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Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:42 am

Hello everyone,

I couldn't see this topic posted anywhere, sorry if I missed it.

As of September 2013 Air France will send its A380 to Shanghai, it seems that this deal was struck during the French president's visit to China.

Flights will start on 2nd September 2013 and the superjumbo will operate one of the two daily flights between Paris and Shanghai. The flight will leave Paris at 23:20 with its arrival in Shanghai scheduled at 16:20, return flight departs at 23:20 and it arrives in Paris at 05:35. The 13:40 departure from Paris will remain unchanged and it will be operated by a B777-300.

On the same day, Air France will be discontinuing its A380 flights to Singapore, one of the six A380 destinations operated this summer (Johannesburg, Los Angeles, JFK, Tokyo and Washington).

Air France will inaugurate its A380 flight to Shanghai three weeks before Lufthansa's five weekly A380 service from Frankfurt.

Source in French:
http://www.air-journal.fr/2013-04-26...hanghai-en-airbus-a380-572521.html
 
Azure
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:22 am

The LH group is the leading European carrier on the Europe - China route with a 15% market share, followed by AFKL (11%) and Aeroflot (8%). IAG has only a 3% market share.
By being the first European airline to land an A380 in PVG, AF wants to attract media's attention while its CEO stated he is not planning on opening new routes to China in the coming months.
Good move from AF but it is a disappointment that the SIN A380 service be discontinued. A side effect of the launching of KUL with a 772 a few days ago that may impact the loads to Changi ?
 
FlyingAY
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:48 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 1):
The LH group is the leading European carrier on the Europe - China route with a 15% market share, followed by AFKL (11%) and Aeroflot (8%). IAG has only a 3% market share.

Sorry for the offtopic, but can you tell me AYs market share on Europe-China routes? Where do you get the statistics?
 
Azure
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:14 am

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 2):
Sorry for the offtopic, but can you tell me AYs market share on Europe-China routes? Where do you get the statistics?

Sorry, I meant to quote my source but forgot ! Thanks for the reminder.
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...irwaysoneworld-play-catch-up-99050
Finnair is just ahead of IAG with 4% market share.
 
SR4ever
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 1):
A side effect of the launching of KUL with a 772 a few days ago that may impact the loads to Changi ?

Or perhaps a result of SQ (relative) dominance on that route
 
ManekS
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:57 pm

AF's original plan for SIN was to add 3 additional frequencies per week to complement the existing daily AF256/257 service. Instead, they up-gauged the daily flight to an A380 thrice a week. With the A380 service ending in September, I wonder if they will revert to the original idea of adding frequency.

I highly doubt the new KUL flights have any impact on this decision. After all, AF does not codeshare on other flights ex-SIN, presumably meaning its mostly point to point traffic. It could also just be a temporary suspension until they take delivery of more A380's. SIN requires two airframes - not the best utilisation of limited resources.
 
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Miami
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:05 pm

Does anyone know how AF is doing in MIA?

Anyone think we can see a AF A380 at MIA later on?
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:46 pm

Quoting miami (Reply 6):
Anyone think we can see a AF A380 at MIA later on?

More likely to see Southwest serving free hotmeals on all its flights rather than AF sending the A380 to MIA ...
 
Azure
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:02 pm

Quoting ManekS (Reply 5):
With the A380 service ending in September, I wonder if they will revert to the original idea of adding frequency (...)
It could also just be a temporary suspension until they take delivery of more A380's.

One or the other certainly. AF looks willing to develop in SE Asia. I can see them adding a 3 weekly frequency in addition to their daily one, with CGK as a tag-on (and from there, codeshare with their future ST partner GA to more destinations in the region and to Australia ?)



Quoting miami (Reply 6):
Anyone think we can see a AF A380 at MIA later on?

I doubt it and for many reasons :
- AF has a limited fleet of A380s. They are to receive one more later this year and we already know it will be deployed to Shanghai. For the 2 other superjumbos to be delivered in 2014, GRU and ABJ are reported to be under consideration.
- MIA is not a premium destination for AF. They are currently operating the route with a 747 (36J / 396Y) while their A380s are more premium oriented (9P / 80J / 38W / 339Y). Sending one of their whales to Florida would result in a massive increase in premium seats and in a sharp decrease in Economy, which does not make any sense.

FYI, here is the list of AF premium destinations (ie where they operate P class equipped aircraft) : Atlanta, Boston, Houston, Los Angeles, New York, Washington and Sao Paulo in the Americas - Hong Kong, Beijing, Kuala Lumpur, Shanghai, Tokyo, Seoul and Singapore in Asia - Abidjan, Abuja, Beyrouth, Douala, Dubai, Johannesburg, Luanda, Libreville, Malabo, Port Harcourt and Yaoundé in Africa and the Middle-East. You can bet without any risk that all AF's future A380 destinations are in this list, at least in a foreseable future !
 
davidho1985
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:11 pm

So Singapore will lose two A380 services within a short period of time: QF and AF....so sad
 
AirGAbon
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:21 pm

Quoting miami (Reply 6):
Anyone think we can see a AF A380 at MIA later on?

No, MIA is mostly a leisure market for AF, despite being a large market. Both B77W (with limited J Class) or B744 (large J Class) used on CDG-MIA route have no First Class.

At the opposite the AF A380 have high-yield cabins with a P, a large J, Y+ and of course Y. Focusing on high-yields routes with heavy demand.
 
justinlee
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:57 pm

The PVG-CDG route is now 2 of the busiest routes on the Sino-Europe market: 4xdaily, on a par with PEK-Moscow region, but definitely has more capacity. PVG is also the busiest destination for CDG in the far east region.
 
goldorak
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 1):
Good move from AF but it is a disappointment that the SIN A380 service be discontinued. A side effect of the launching of KUL with a 772 a few days ago that may impact the loads to Changi ?
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 4):
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 4):
Or perhaps a result of SQ (relative) dominance on that route
Quoting ManekS (Reply 5):
AF's original plan for SIN was to add 3 additional frequencies per week to complement the existing daily AF256/257 service. Instead, they up-gauged the daily flight to an A380 thrice a week. With the A380 service ending in September, I wonder if they will revert to the original idea of adding frequency.

I highly doubt the new KUL flights have any impact on this decision. After all, AF does not codeshare on other flights ex-SIN, presumably meaning its mostly point to point traffic. It could also just be a temporary suspension until they take delivery of more A380's. SIN requires two airframes - not the best utilisation of limited resources.

I believe the main reason for AF to stop the A380 service to SIN is the recent end of code-share agreement with QF ex-SIN to several cities in Australia. This was bringing a very significant traffic to AF on the SIN route.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:45 pm

Quoting ManekS (Reply 5):
SIN requires two airframes - not the best utilisation of limited resources.

Well, they shuffle routes at every time they are back at CDG, so the route does not require exactly 2 aircraft, rather 1.5, or 1.3, or whatever the exact number would be. It takes about 30-32 hours to make the r-t to SIN with late evening CDG departure and early arrival 2 days later. But aircraft is then repositioned to a morning flight to elsewhere, while the departing evening SIN flight would normally be operated by a late afternoon arriving aircraft. AF has better use of their A380 than have them sit at CDG fro 6 AM to 11PM.
PVG operates within the same time window, so it is in fact similar in terms of aircraft time. Just that AF probably believes they can get more revenue by flying these aircraft to PVG instead of SIN.

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 10):
No, MIA is mostly a leisure market for AF, despite being a large market. Both B77W (with limited J Class) or B744 (large J Class) used on CDG-MIA route have no First Class.

AF 744 do not have a large J class... for a 747. But it is larger than on some of the 77W they operate (the Caraibes Ocean Indien ones, but they have 3 configs on the 77W, not sure which one serves MIA).

Quoting Azure (Reply 8):
FYI, here is the list of AF premium destinations (ie where they operate P class equipped aircraft) : Atlanta, Boston, Houston, Los Angeles, New York, Washington and Sao Paulo in the Americas - Hong Kong, Beijing, Kuala Lumpur, Shanghai, Tokyo, Seoul and Singapore in Asia - Abidjan, Abuja, Beyrouth, Douala, Dubai, Johannesburg, Luanda, Libreville, Malabo, Port Harcourt and Yaoundé in Africa and the Middle-East. You can bet without any risk that all AF's future A380 destinations are in this list, at least in a foreseable future !

Curious about a few more, notably: Osaka, Seoul, Dakar, Lagos, MEX... Are you sure about BOS? They tend to send the 744 there (at least they used to), so hardly premium....
When I doubt... go running!
 
goldorak
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:57 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 13):
Are you sure about BOS? They tend to send the 744 there (at least they used to), so hardly premium....

Yes, this is correct. For the summer season, the 2 daily flights are operated by a 744 and a 772. The 772 is one with P.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:15 pm

CDG-MEX appears to be an all-744 route this year. That means only Y (395 seats) and J (36 angle lie-flat seats).
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
Azure
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:04 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 13):
Curious about a few more, notably: Osaka, Seoul, Dakar, Lagos, MEX...

Osaka is operated with a 772 with no P. If you insist to travel in P, you 'll be routed via Seoul.
Seoul is included in my list already
Dakar is operated with a 772 or 773 with no P class.
Lagos is operated with an A332 (no P class)
Mexico is a 744 route as EddieDude stated. No P class.
I am afraid my list is 100% correct, Monsieur  
 
AirGAbon
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:06 pm

Quoting goldorak (Reply 14):
Curious about a few more, notably: Osaka, Seoul, Dakar, Lagos, MEX... Are you sure about BOS? They tend to send the 744 there (at least they used to), so hardly premium....

No more P to EZE and SCL?
 
Azure
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:23 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 17):
No more P to EZE and SCL?

No.
It is a trend in the industry I believe. F/P is getting rarer, or, to be more precise, the airlines (including EK) are decreasing their First class capacity as the demand has become weaker ( a consequence of the global crisis I suppose). In the meantime they are improving their J class, so everyone can be happy...
 
JU068
Topic Author
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:52 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 13):
But aircraft is then repositioned to a morning flight to elsewhere, while the departing evening SIN flight would normally be operated by a late afternoon arriving aircraft. AF has better use of their A380 than have them sit at CDG fro 6 AM to 11PM.

Hmm could they fit ABJ between those times?
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:00 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 12):
I believe the main reason for AF to stop the A380 service to SIN is the recent end of code-share agreement with QF ex-SIN to several cities in Australia. This was bringing a very significant traffic to AF on the SIN route.

Very good point.

The importance of that feed becomes ever more clear for that reported AF meeting with MH last week.
 
goldorak
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:26 am

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 17):
No more P to EZE and SCL?
Quoting Azure (Reply 18):
No.
It is a trend in the industry I believe. F/P is getting rarer, or, to be more precise, the airlines (including EK) are decreasing their First class capacity as the demand has become weaker ( a consequence of the global crisis I suppose). In the meantime they are improving their J class, so everyone can be happy...

I was surprised also of no more F to EZE and SCL. Regarding EZE, the crisis in Argentina does not help for sure.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 20):
The importance of that feed becomes ever more clear for that reported AF meeting with MH last week.

Absolutely. Also knowing that there does not seem to be some significant cooperation to Oz for AF with EY via AUH, unlike KL.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:29 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 21):
Absolutely. Also knowing that there does not seem to be some significant cooperation to Oz for AF with EY via AUH, unlike KL.

I certainly find the world of partnerships and alliances too hard to understand these days. It would seem a great outcome if AF could co-operate with EY to Australia, unless they are looking at the SE Asian market.
 
United Airline
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:44 pm

Will they place the A380 on the HKG-CDG route?
 
AF185
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:04 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 23):
Will they place the A380 on the HKG-CDG route?

I hope they will, though it doesn't seem to be planned
They could stop the morning flight and substitute the B777-300ER of the night flight with the A380. It would give them a more competitive product to compete with CX..
 
Azure
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting goldorak (Reply 21):
the crisis in Argentina does not help for sure.

  




Quoting goldorak (Reply 21):
there does not seem to be some significant cooperation to Oz for AF with EY via AUH

Agreed. I wonder whether everyone at AF is comfortable with this alliance...
In order to compete with EK on the Kangaroo route, AF /EY would need to feed AUH from secondary cities (such as NCE, MRS or LYS). It is rather unlikely these days.




Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 22):
unless they are looking at the SE Asian market.

This is what de Juniac has stated. There is a possibility that AF routes PAX to Oz via Guangzhou. China Southern has just announced it will serve SYD with an A380 as from Oct 27th IIRC.




Quoting AF185 (Reply 24):

HKG was rumoured to be an AF A380 destination. But AF does not have enough whales I suppose, and frequency is important to attract the premium demand.
 
United Airline
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:53 pm

Maybe they will place the A380 on the HKG-CDG route once they have more A380s?
 
Azure
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:05 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 26):
Maybe they will place the A380 on the HKG-CDG route once they have more A380s?

This is a possibility which can not be excluded
 
AF185
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 25):
frequency is important to attract the premium demand.

Though I agree with you on the "big picture", I am seriously questioning the point of the morning AF flight (AF183) from HK to Paris.
All business people I know (premium type of passengers) fly on night flights without exceptions, CX or AF. The time management offered is just way better for those people.
CX offers 2 night flights a day to Paris, with the 2nd flight leaving only 30min after the 1st.. A clear sign of the demand for that schedule.

However, price oriented passengers I know often fly on the AF morning flight since fares are usually significantly cheaper, hence I am wondering about the yields on that flight..

Having a single daily night flight with the A380 would make sense IMO.
 
SR4ever
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:19 am

While we are at it, does anyone knows if all 388 of AF have been fitted with NEV-4 "full-sleep" seats in J?

I have also heard that 388s will finally not get the new J seat to be deployed on 772/77W in 2014-2015...
 
goldorak
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Wed May 01, 2013 9:57 am

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 29):
While we are at it, does anyone knows if all 388 of AF have been fitted with NEV-4 "full-sleep" seats in J?

No. Only the 2 or 3 last frames received.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 29):
I have also heard that 388s will finally not get the new J seat to be deployed on 772/77W in 2014-2015...

They will of course have it (the A380 has still many many years to fly with AF), but they won't be part of the priority frames.
 
SR4ever
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RE: Air France To Send Its A380 To Shanghai

Sat May 04, 2013 12:13 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 30):
They will of course have it (the A380 has still many many years to fly with AF), but they won't be part of the priority frames.

Or perhaps they will get the same J cabin as that of 350/787...

Or else, in view of the cabin width on the upper deck, an arrangement à la EY or AZ would make more sense.