Gonzalo
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FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:54 pm

This is not the original JTSB report, but is a very good summary and has all the relevant information, including the photo sequence of the crash. FedEx 80 crash was one of the most heart braking images I've seen in a long long time...

http://avherald.com/h?article=416e7619/0015&opt=0

Rgds.
G.

[Edited 2013-04-26 11:57:32]
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TheRedBaron
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:39 pm

3 words High wing loading.


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Revelation
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:45 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 1):
3 words High wing loading.

Why not two words: unstabilized approach?
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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spacecadet
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:29 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
Why not two words: unstabilized approach?

And two more: poor CRM. The pilots were joking around during the unstabilized approach, and the captain never called for a go-around despite realizing the approach was destabilized just prior to touchdown. Instead he called out "stabilize!" That should have been "go around!" instead and we wouldn't be talking about this.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:36 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
and the captain never called for a go-around despite realizing the approach was destabilized just prior to touchdown.

And that after the 1997 accident at EWR in similar conditions...
 
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
The pilots were joking around during the unstabilized approach, and the captain never called for a go-around despite realizing the approach was destabilized just prior to touchdown. Instead he called out "stabilize!" That should have been "go around!" instead and we wouldn't be talking about this.

The article does highlight that the PM (Pilot Monitoring) was taking a pretty casual approach relative to his responsibilities.

I'm not a great fan of hindsight, but it does seem the PM was behind the airplane.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
trent772
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:10 pm

Judging from the photo sequence, I don't think any airplane western built or not, would have been able to safely recover from that nose dive at such a low height and with such an energy decay in the late stages.

They had many chances to Go-Around during the approach, their last one came after that heavy bounce, they chose not to.…….

May the pilots rest in peace, strength and courage to their loved ones.
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zschocheimages
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:52 pm

Aviation is safer with each passing day because of the lessons learned from previous mistakes. It is just unfortunate that many times the mistakes come with a loss of life.

That said, even before this report was published, when my auto-throttles surge and struggle keep a constant airspeed, it is a signal to me that it's time to disengage. Automation is good the majority of the time, but sometimes we just need to be pilots and fly the plane, not let it fly us.

May the pilots continue to RIP.

We toast our faithful comrades
Now fallen from the sky,
And gently caught by God's own hand
To be with Him on high.

To dwell among the soaring clouds
They knew so well before,
From dawn patrol and victory roll
At Heaven's very door.

And as we fly among them there
We're sure to hear their plea,
"Take care, my friend; watch your six,
And do one more roll just for me.

-Commander Gerald Coffee
Why fly with 2 engines when you can have 3?
 
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:53 pm

Quoting trent772 (Reply 6):
strength and courage to their loved ones

Well said, trent772!
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:49 pm

this changed the procedure for a bounced landing dramatically. You can site all the stuff you want here but the major issue was unloading the elevator after the bounce.
 
terminalc
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Wed May 01, 2013 4:02 pm

I flew into NRT the day after. It was awful looking at the remains at the side of the runway.
 
skipness1E
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Wed May 01, 2013 4:12 pm

Sorry, the wreck's STILL at Narita?
 
wingman
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Wed May 01, 2013 4:29 pm

Man, reading this and watching that Bagram tape...it led me too look back into past CVR tapes and transcripts. I have to say one of the worst is JAL 123. Just listened too it again after all these years and it just puts a hole in your stomach. Unlike some of these others the guys had a lot of time to do whatever was in their power but nothing could save them, absolutely terrifying. The captain's last words were "It is the end". Almost brings tears to your eyes.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Wed May 01, 2013 5:02 pm

From an engineering standpoint I have a major beef with the MD-11/DC-10 landing gear/wing spar interface. Most airliners (I believe all built by Boeing and Airbus) attach the landing gear to the SIDE of the wing spars; this means that under excessive load they can shear off, as it did in the BA 777 crash. On the MD-11/DC-10, the landing gear is attached to the UNDERSIDE of the wing spar. That means that under excessive load the only thing that can happen is that the wing spar fails. And this is what has happened in all 3 of the MD-11 landing accidents where the aircraft ended up inverted and on fire. The only accident where this happened to a DC-10 was UA232; but this was obscured by the miracle of the plane making the runway at all. I cannot find any accident in any other airliner where it ended up inverted and on fire after a botched landing. However, I am not one of those calling for the grounding of the MD-11; KLM certainly has proved that it is possible to fly it safely. But it is clearly much less forgiving than other types.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Wed May 01, 2013 5:18 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 13):
The only accident where this happened to a DC-10 was UA232; but this was obscured by the miracle of the plane making the runway at all.

In the recent thread about JL123, I replied this to an affirmation regarding UA232

As soon as engines were idled, the right wing dropped, as it was locked in a right turn configuration, and its tip touched the ground just before the runway. The outer wing broke and the aircraft turned upside down.

and this

When the wing tip touched the ground, it was to the left of the runway centerline. Then the landing gear impacted heavily the ground of the runway's left hand edge and was sheared off. Then as the aircraft was skidding to the right at high speed and tumbling on its back, the outer part of the wing was demolished.

All this is based on what was written in a book titled "Air Disaster" I bought some twenty years ago.

[Edited 2013-05-01 10:27:17]
 
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SEPilot
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Wed May 01, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 14):
Then the landing gear impacted heavily the ground of the runway's left hand edge and was sheared off. Then as the aircraft was skidding to the right at high speed and tumbling on its back, the outer part of the wing was demolished.

My point is that because of the way the landing gear is attached to the wing spar, under extreme conditions such as this the landing gear cannot be torn off without breaking or severely damaging the wing spar. Were it attached differently, I think the wing spar would have survived and the plane would not have rolled onto its back-it might have spun around instead (which is what usually happens with a wing tip strike). That might have permitted a few more passengers to have survived. As I said in my previous post, I am unaware of any crash landing of any other type that has ended up on its back, and I believe this is the reason.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
skipness1E
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Wed May 01, 2013 6:17 pm

Was the Martinair DC10 crash at Faro not similar as well?
 
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Wed May 01, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 16):
Was the Martinair DC10 crash at Faro not similar as well?

After looking at the official report, I have concluded that it is. The report that I looked at earlier did not say that it had rolled over, but the official report does.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/48806497/F...rport-Portugal-on-21-December-1992
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Wed May 01, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 17):
The report that I looked at earlier did not say that it had rolled over, but the official report does.

The aircraft didn't roll over otherwise the rear wouldn't stand like that:

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/ma495/6.shtml
 
cubastar
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RE: FedEx Tokyo Crash : Final Report Released

Thu May 02, 2013 9:32 pm

Quoting zschocheimages (Reply 7):
e toast our faithful comrades
Now fallen from the sky,
And gently caught by God's own hand
To be with Him on high.

To dwell among the soaring clouds
They knew so well before,
From dawn patrol and victory roll
At Heaven's very door.

And as we fly among them there
We're sure to hear their plea,
"Take care, my friend; watch your six,
And do one more roll just for me.

-Commander Gerald Coffee

Do you know Gerry? (Usually Jerry) I was with him in Navy Photographic Squadron VFP-62 in the early/mid '60's flying F8's. Never met a better pilot or a nicer man. He has had a terrific career as a Naval Officer and Aviator. Google him is anyone is interested. Downside, he spend too many years captured in Vietnam. God Bless, Jerry wherever you are. (I think in Hawaii)