copter808
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Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:18 pm

I seem to recall at one time most airlines required the window shades to be "open" during takeoff and landing. More recently, nobody seems to care anymore. I do a lot of flying and I can only recall once in the past year or so where the FA wanted all the shades up!

Personally, as a first responder. I want to be able to see inside the aircraft so I can see where I need to make entry. As a passenger, I would like to be able to see outside so I can plan my escape. If there is fire and smoke out there, I don't want to exit in that area!!

I recently asked a deadheading FA about this and she wasn't sure what her employer's official policy was.

Any thoughts on this?
 
SCQ83
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:02 pm

I have noticed that flying in the US or in US carriers lately... however in Europe this seems to be still enforced.
 
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mats
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:07 pm

Arm rests down and window shades up do not appear to be requirements in the US. I don't know the logic behind keeping arm rests down, but leaving window shades open seems like an obvious safety measure.

I recently flew multiple flights in and around Florida. The shades were kept down to keep the airplane cool. Very few people opened the shades for takeoff.

Leaving window shades open also prevents air sickness, but many people deliberately shut their window shades prior to takeoff. I find this annoying, but I don't think there is any US law nor airline requirement to open the shades.
 
lucce
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:23 pm

As said before, in Europe many airlines require it so that the passengers and cabin crew can maintain situational awareness. Imagine an engine igniting during take-off: the cabin crew will see the glow through the windows and know which side to avoid during the evacuation and so will passengers.

Quoting Mats (Reply 2):
don't know the logic behind keeping arm rests down

Helps to keep you upper body in place by your hips in case of lateral movement so that you wont be on top of the person in the next seat. Crew seats compensate this by having a harness.

I recall that at least BA and AY require both of the above while LH requires neither. As Mats mentioned for example AA wants the window shades to be lowered while pulling in to the gate to save on air conditioning. I think this is a bit hazardous considering what happened on flight CI 120.
 
indywa
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:00 pm

Aisle armrests are supposed to be down..and as for window shades, with our company anyway, it has in the announcement "We ask that the windows be open for taxi, takeoff, and landing." However, it is not REQUIRED.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:24 pm

When I first flew both ANA and JAL internationally, the f/a's would actually walk through and manually put up the shades if you didn't do it after their announcement. You really had no choice - they'd just reach right over you and pull the shades up as part of their pre-takeoff cabin check. They'd do the opposite after reaching cruise and dimming the cabin lights - if you didn't like a darkened cabin with no view, too bad.

But the last few times I've flown each - including domestically within Japan just a couple weeks ago - neither airline has even made an announcement. On ANA, they do still come through and manually put the shades *down* during cruise, but they never put them *up*, and they never bothered anyone who put their shades down before takeoff, or left them down on landing.

So this seems to have changed even on some non-US airlines.
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AR385
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:39 pm

I once asked a more senior CO FA about it and what she told me, aside from the comment of situational awareness, was also to get people´s eyes used to the level of existing "natural" light in case they find themselves in an emergency once in the ground without any light (some airlines turn off the cabin lights before landing at night) at least I remember CO doing it frequently, but granted, it was not all the time.

But yeah, it does not seem to be enforced anymore.
 
alfa164
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
I once asked a more senior CO FA about it and what she told me, aside from the comment of situational awareness, was also to get people´s eyes used to the level of existing "natural" light in case they find themselves in an emergency once in the ground without any light (some airlines turn off the cabin lights before landing at night) at least I remember CO doing it frequently, but granted, it was not all the time.

That is exactly rght. Window shades are supposed to be open, so your eyes adjust to the ambient light outside (cabin lights are turned off at take-off and landing for the same reason). The logic is, in case of an emergency evacuaton, you would not be blinded-by-the-light/unable-to-adjust-quickly-to-the-darkness making an emergency exit.

It was an FAA rule; that may have changed.
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:20 pm

At FR they must be fully open for take off & landing, part of securing the cabin for either.
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tonystan
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:09 pm

BA..... Personal preference unless on or adjacent to an exit where they must be opened.
BMI it was a must to have them open prior to the merger,
EI require them to be open!
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N62NA
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:19 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 5):
On ANA, they do still come through and manually put the shades *down* during cruise, but they never put them *up*, and they never bothered anyone who put their shades down before takeoff, or left them down on landing.

This would be much more difficult to do on the 787s as there are no window shades! Is there a "manual override" kind of control where a flight attendant can "open" all the shades with the flip of a switch?
 
Elevated
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting Mats (Reply 2):

Arm rests down and window shades up do not appear to be requirements in the US. I don't know the logic behind keeping arm rests down, but leaving window shades open seems like an obvious safety measure.

I recently flew multiple flights in and around Florida. The shades were kept down to keep the airplane cool. Very few people opened the shades for takeoff.

Leaving window shades open also prevents air sickness, but many people deliberately shut their window shades prior to takeoff. I find this annoying, but I don't think there is any US law nor airline requirement to open the shades.

With the exception of the asile armrest, it MUST be down for taxi, takeoff and landing now. This changed within the last year. The aisle armrest down is another "safety" mesure to keep people in their seats (especially in a aisle seat) in the event of a non-routine landing--it used to be ALL armrests had to be down. I wish it was still the case...

Furthermore, in the U.S., it's Company Policy with regards the window shades, not the FAA. Flight Attendants should know what's FAR's and whats Company Policy--case and point. Typically in the summer we leave them down to keep the sun out with the plane when the GPU is on and it's hot a blue blazes.

[Edited 2013-04-27 11:41:27]
 
Akiestar
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:15 pm

All airlines in the Philippines require that window shades be pulled up prior to take-off and landing. I'm not sure if it's company policy or a directive from the CAAP, but they do enforce it.
 
bohica
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:30 pm

The last time I was on a flight in the USA where they required the shades to be open during takeoff and landing was on an airline called TWA. That's haw long ago it was. In my opinion it should be an FAR to have them open for takeoff and landing.

The only time I ever heard an announcement to keep the arm rests down was around 1999 on an ACA flight on a J41.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 10):
This would be much more difficult to do on the 787s as there are no window shades! Is there a "manual override" kind of control where a flight attendant can "open" all the shades with the flip of a switch?

Flight attendants can override the "electronic shades" on a 787.
 
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tb727
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:42 pm

I thought about this very subject the other day. I rode around a lot in the last week on the airlines and on one flight an FA asked a few different pax to open their shades and it caught me off guard because I hadn't heard it in a while! Interesting.
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virgincrew
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:32 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 9):
BA..... Personal preference unless on or adjacent to an exit where they must be opened

I am sure it is a CAA requirement....

My understanding is that the requirement is so cabin crew can see whats happening outside the aircraft during take-off & landing and so your eyes adjust to the ambient light outside (cabin lights are turned off at take-off and landing for the same reason). The logic is, in case of an emergency evacuaton, you would not be blinded-by-the-light/unable-to-adjust-quickly-to-the-darkness making an emergency exit.
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EIDL
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 8):
At FR they must be fully open for take off & landing, part of securing the cabin for either.

I'm pretty sure its an IAA requirement, hence FR doing it.
 
tonystan
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:54 pm

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 15):
Quoting tonystan (Reply 9):
BA..... Personal preference unless on or adjacent to an exit where they must be opened

I am sure it is a CAA requirement....

My understanding is that the requirement is so cabin crew can see whats happening outside the aircraft during take-off & landing and so your eyes adjust to the ambient light outside (cabin lights are turned off at take-off and landing for the same reason). The logic is, in case of an emergency evacuaton, you would not be blinded-by-the-light/unable-to-adjust-quickly-to-the-darkness making an emergency exit.


BA training states that there is no requirement for window blinds to remain open during take off and landing unless adjacent to emergency exits!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
hereandthere41
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:49 pm

At UA, the shades are required to be open if it's an emergency exit.
 
tuiflyer
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:04 pm

Quoting copter808 (Thread starter):

I'm not sure about the US, but I think the the UK and EU, window blinds raised is standard, as

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 15):

states it is CAA regulation, possibly even EU-ops (don't know if someone can elaborate,) which was created by the EU to ensure consistency throughout Europe in terms of aviation regulations. Window blinds, armrests, seat recline and clear laps (no coats, blankets or scarves etc) is non-negotiable at VS.

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rojo
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:13 pm

In the US, NK requires window shades to be open for take off and landing.
 
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allrite
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:18 pm

On Australian airlines (and I seem to recall most Asian airlines that I've flown) the window shades and armrests up policy is enforced with flight attendants enforcing the rule. Sometimes my son falls asleep on a flight across multiple seats and it's convenient to have the armrest up. We were told by a Jetstar flight attendant that a sudden stop or severe turbulence could cause the armrest to slam down upon him, hence we had to leave it down.

Whether or not that's the official reason for leaving them down, I appreciate the reasoning behind it.
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dc9northwest
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:40 pm

TAROM and Carpatair require and enforce open window shades for take-off and landing.
 
georgiaame
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:51 pm

Quoting copter808 (Thread starter):
Personally, as a first responder. I want to be able to see inside the aircraft so I can see where I need to make entry. As a passenger, I would like to be able to see outside so I can plan my escape. If there is fire and smoke out there, I don't want to exit in that area!!

I always request that the shade go up for both takeoff and landing. I don't care if the window passenger gets ticked off for those exact reasons. I too have asked flight attendants, and apparently the requirement is strictly airline by airline. Delta doesn't care, as I recall, the last time I flew Air France, it was shades up. Pretty dumb not to do it when you think about it. I live in Atlanta, and it is usually 40 minutes from pull back to pull up. My shoes don't come off my swollen feet until we are more than 2 minutes in the air. If we go splat, I don't want to exit the plane into burning jet fuel wearing only nylon socks. Air safety being what it is, true, it is a HIGHLY unlikely scenario. But not impossible, and a modicum of safety, at no cost to anyone, seems like a wise idea to me.
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cornutt
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:26 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 5):
They'd do the opposite after reaching cruise and dimming the cabin lights - if you didn't like a darkened cabin with no view, too bad.

Now that would annoy me! One of my favorite things is to look out the window; I almost never watch the movie. If the sun is on that side I'll pull it partway down. But looking out the window is one of the joys of flying.
 
SVJ77W
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:29 am

On all my recent flights to India, I notice they still put the windows up on take off and landings. I always wonder the logic behind it, especially on landings after a good night sleep and the sun rays beaming in through the window. AI, IX, G9, EK all do this. My last flight to India and back was on Dec-Jan and it was the same.
 
phunc
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:37 am

Interesting that the OP says she didn't know her company policy. I have been on U.S. operated flights when they have done their final cabin sweep before landing and missed the fact that several shades are down and seat backs are still reclined. Irritated me as it was the seat infront of me on three occasions.

In warm cities they tend to have the shades down on boarding but it amazes me how many people leave then down to take-off. I've have to ask my window neighbour to open it so I know what we're doing, where we are and keep orientated.

I like it open at night so I can see the stars and moon etc... I always observe people closing them at night like it's a set of curtains at home. Must be habit.

I do like how Asian carriers ask pax to close them to help sleep on long flights. Although on a recent ICN-LHR day flight the melvin infront of me decided to keep his shade open in J which made day sleeping difficult. Was a bit miffed at that.
 
Tbone354
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:58 am

On a Southwest flight from FLL to PHL a flight attendant announced over the loud speaker that all window shades be down and closed until we reached altitude. Something about the air conditioning not working. I cheated and cracked mine!
 
blueflyer
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:55 am

Quoting bohica (Reply 13):
Flight attendants can override the "electronic shades" on a 787.

Cue an onboard fight because a flight attendant decided no one could see the sunrise in cruise and closed all the shades.
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AirNiugini
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:23 am

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 15):
My understanding is that the requirement is so cabin crew can see whats happening outside the aircraft during take-off & landing and so your eyes adjust to the ambient light outside (cabin lights are turned off at take-off and landing for the same reason).

I fly a lot with QF domestically and internationally, and I have noticed that yes, the cabin lights are always dimmed for take off during early morning and night departures, however for landing, the cabin is fully lit. I thought the rule would be required for all landings too... They still ask that all window shades be open, but what's the use if the cabin lights are all on and you can't see too much outside anyway?
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tonystan
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:51 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 28):

Quoting bohica (Reply 13):
Flight attendants can override the "electronic shades" on a 787.

Cue an onboard fight because a flight attendant decided no one could see the sunrise in cruise and closed all the shades.


Really??? A fight???? Possibly an argument and a realisation that 7/9ths of the passengers are not beside a window and perhaps about 98% altogether don't care about the sunrise but would rather maximise their rest and sleep without being dragged back into reality by the inconsiderate illumating of a cabin by a thoughtless window seater!!!!!

The cabin crew despite myth don't force the windows shut just to annoy, we do it to keep the majority happy!
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awthompson
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:54 pm

The only time now I would ever put my window shade down is to prevent the sun shining in my eyes or if I badly needed a sleep on a long arduous trip.

I should mention a little experience I had in 2005 on a Lufthansa A346 (D-AIHD) flying from Frankfurt to Manila via Guangzhou (LH788) on the southern route on an overnight flight. We were flying across the north edge of India, the sun was already up but cabin crew had asked that all window blinds should stay down to maintain darkness throughout the cabin so that people could continue to sleep due to the shortened night flying eastbound.

I noticed on the map display that we were now over Nepal and coming up to Kathmandu and I knew that this was going to take us very close to Mount Everest. Even if I opened my blind a little it flooded the cabin with light and it was very obvious who had opened their blind so I had to use the pillow and a blanket to cover my head and block the light while I watched an unforgettable view. There on the left side of the plane were the Himalayas and Mount Everest in all it's glory as well as Makalu. Sadly the crew did not announce what was the most amazing view I have probably ever had out off an aircraft window, and to this day I believe I was likely the only passenger on the entire aeroplane that enjoyed this view since everyone around was clearly fast asleep. The travelling public are really not switched on! With the black dark cabin, I could see that no-one else had opened their blinds.

I have been hoping ever since to get that route again so that I could photograph that scene. Last November I did fly a similar route on an Aeroflot B763 (VP-BAZ) flying from Moscow to Hanoi (SU290) however, around Nepal it was still black dark and the sun did not rise until almost Dhaka which was too late. However, the night sky was very clear on that trip and I did have wonderful views of the lights of Kabul, Islamabad, Lahore, northern Delhi etc.

This is indeed an amazing route however most flights from Europe pass this area at an inconvenient time of day for seeing the views.

Has anyone else had this or a similar experience?
 
burnsie28
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:16 pm

I have heard the FA's tell the Exit Row pax numerous times that had their windows shades closed that they needed to be open for takeoff and landing.
 
tonystan
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:15 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 32):

I have heard the FA's tell the Exit Row pax numerous times that had their windows shades closed that they needed to be open for takeoff and landing.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009

I'm sure this is self explanatory!
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spacecadet
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 30):
The cabin crew despite myth don't force the windows shut just to annoy, we do it to keep the majority happy!

And on ANA and JAL, at least, I have never seen anyone complain about this.
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quiet1
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:43 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 31):
The only time now I would ever put my window shade down is to prevent the sun shining in my eyes or if I badly needed a sleep on a long arduous trip.

Do you give that consideration to others who need to prevent sun shining in their eyes or who badly need sleep on a long arduous trip, when the timing of their needs doesn't coincide with yours?
 
davidho1985
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:14 am

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 35):
Do you give that consideration to others who need to prevent sun shining in their eyes or who badly need sleep on a long arduous trip, when the timing of their needs doesn't coincide with yours?

To gain the control of the window shade, they should request a WINDOW SEAT so that they can keep it close as much as they want. We give up the direct access to the arise becasue we want to see the view throught the window!!!
 
pualani
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:58 am

At Hawaiian...prior to takeoff and landing , window shades are up.
 
gizmonc
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:57 pm

In the US the window shades are what ever is filed with the FAA and it becomes FAR Federal Air Regulation. At TWA it was a requirement that window shades be in the up position for take off and landing. As for arm rest. The aisle arm rest has to be down. Again it is what is filed with FAA that becomes the FAR.
 
thorntot
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:34 pm

My flight attendant training at two different carriers (Tower Air and Omni Air International) called for the shades to be in the up position during take-off and landing to assist in the ability of assessing the external conditions in the event of an evacuation, i.e. water, fire, smoke, etc.
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fpetrutiu
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:08 pm

Quoting lucce (Reply 3):
so that you wont be on top of the person in the next seat

Well, that just really depends on who's sitting next to you...
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b6flyboy
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:03 am

The FAA does not have requirement for window shade position on windows that are not primary exits. So regular seat window have no lawful requirement to be up or down. Same is true for window exits if the airline did not certify that aircraft type as a primary exit. Now if an airlines approved or accepted manuals state that window shades have to be open, closed or half way open (just being funny) then that is what has to be enforced by crews since it is in a manual that is approved or accepted by the FAA. The only window shades that have a FAA requirement to be open for taxi, takeoff and landing are windows that are part of primary exits (usually doors, but some airlines do use windows as primary exits).

The same is true for armrests, no regulation for up or down....even though down is the FAA preference. Again whatever is written in the airlines approved or accepted manuals is what shall be enforced by crews and therefore what a FAA inspector would hold a crew member accountable to. The only armrests that have a reg attached to them are the aisle armrests....have to be down. That reg falls in the realm of aisle width requirements and egress.
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quiet1
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RE: Window Shades On Takeoff & Landing

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 36):
To gain the control of the window shade, they should request a WINDOW SEAT so that they can keep it close as much as they want. We give up the direct access to the arise becasue we want to see the view throught the window!!!

I suspect you are from a younger generation than I. I have lapses where I forget that today's mantra is "It's all about me!" I must make a concerted effort to be more focused in the present. I apologize for not being more diligent.

I'm tempted to ask if you think it appropriate for a passenger in an aisle seat to deny the window passenger from accessing the aisle (after all if you thought you needed to get to the aisle during the flight you should request an AISLE SEAT), but I won't.

But, I have digressed enough. I respectfully understand your perspective, and though I may not agree with it, really have no more to say. Good day, kind sir!

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