mjoelnir
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:02 pm

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...ed_boarding_Czc7AIeiirTOLhDsN4IwoJ

The man said several times the word bomb.
The guy can not help blurting out what is on his mind.
The trip was prepared beforehand, explaining his condition.

I think this time the pilot went too far.
 
toobz
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:08 pm

I don't. Everyone has this sense of entitlement and its being taken too far. We are far too concerned about being sensitive. It's time to stop. Ultimately it is up to the captain of the flight. It's also very unnerving to other passengers on board. I'm not saying its right or wrong. When someone like the captain has final say it's really up to him (her) and his (her) feelings. they are responsible for the aircraft. Time to accept that.
 
mjoelnir
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Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:33 pm

Quoting toobz (Reply 1):
I don't. Everyone has this sense of entitlement and its being taken too far. We are far too concerned about being sensitive. It's time to stop. Ultimately it is up to the captain of the flight. It's also very unnerving to other passengers on board. I'm not saying its right or wrong. When someone like the captain has final say it's really up to him (her) and his (her) feelings. they are responsible for the aircraft. Time to accept that.

Who has this sense of entitlement, the captain?

The airline was informed in advance.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:36 pm

Gonna have to agree with toobz. He has a problem so reasonable accommodations can be made and it would be an excuse if he was going to be in trouble with the law/security... that being said, accomodations only go so far and even if you do have a legitimate problem, you can't expect the carrier or others to have to put up with it.

Can't you take meds for tourettes? It's unfortunate, but really
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
flyingthe757
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Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:56 pm

This is a tough one.....

On one hand you have a customer who has done all they can to inform the airline etc about his condition

On the other you have a plane full of customers where the captain can either explain to them about said person which could cause embarrassment , but then you would not have them worried about him shouting and swearing on the whole journey, but it still would not be nice to be on a long plane journey with someone shouting something like that every time he had a tick?


Its tough!
 
tonystan
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Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:06 pm

It's Tourette's, it's a condition which can't be helped. It's like cancer.....would you forbid someone from travelling if they suffered some form of cancer???? No!

It's a unique condition but there you have it. I imagine most people these days are familiar with it. Chances are the person with the condition is mortified enough.

There are other conditions such as obesity which already have two threads running there....at least obese people are being given the option of purchasing another seat for a condition which 90% of the time is totally within their control!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
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zkokq
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Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:09 pm

Wow, what a pickle to be in for the crew.

I feel for the family.

How does bomb become a word he would blert out? Does he recognize flying > bomb?

I thought tourettes was linked to profanity? Excuse my lack knowledge on tourettes.

[Edited 2013-04-27 16:10:39]
 
toobz
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Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:27 pm

Somebody with cancer would not be yelling bomb out loud. That's the difference. Is the captain supposed to make an announcement explains the situation? Then the family would also be screaming at the top if their lungs. it's a tough one yes but ultimately the captain has the final word. That is a fact. They are responsible for the safety AND comfort of all pax.
 
flymia
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Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:28 pm

We have seen these threads come up a bit now. Flying is not an everyday activity even though it is seen as one by most people on developed countries. There is no "right" to fly. The law is pretty clear on this, captain has final word on who gets on and off and unless his decision was completely arbitrary and capricious he is allowed to deny boarding of passengers for reason. Someone yelling bomb on a full plane is warranted of denying boarding IMO.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Jpax
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Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 5):
It's Tourette's, it's a condition which can't be helped. It's like cancer.....would you forbid someone from travelling if they suffered some form of cancer???? No!

It is absolutely NOT like cancer, and it is offensive that you would even compare the two. As a captain, I would have taken the same course of action. 150 other passengers do not deserve to be terrified the entire flight because of a teenager yelling bomb.
 
mjoelnir
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Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting toobz (Reply 7):
Quoting flymia (Reply 8):

Nobody talked about yelling.
The airline accepted the passenger knowing his condition.

When it is not for a defined safety reason it is arbitrary.
 
toobz
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:19 am

Jpax sport on. Nobody is cheering the captain on but he has a responsibility to make sure everyone is comfortable.
Mjo..nobody in reservations or check in can guarantee a seat on board. Only the captain and that has been repeated many times. You may not agree but that's ur issue.
 
INFINITI329
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:25 am

Someone with tourettes is considered to have a disability according to the DOJ, that is covered by the ADA (american disabilities act). Now can this looked at as a form of discrimination? Even given the circumstances?
 
toobz
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:41 am

What a typical response infinity. Rules are rules whether u like it or not. As has been stated numerous times the captain has the last say. If he doesn't like the way u look at them they can deny boarding. This is what its come to. Except it. It has not been like that for a short time. It's been like that forever. Done. People in the US need to accept certain things and not scream discrimination all the time. And before I get flamed I've lived in the US for 25yrs. It's a sad state of affairs. May justice pay millions of dollars.
 
INFINITI329
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:34 am

Yes the captain has the final say.. but his decision must fall within the law no matter what the situation may be..this involves someone with a disability its whole different animal vs someone screaming racial or religious discrimination.. I am not saying the captain's decision was wrong I'm just asking if it could be looked at that way...
 
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DeltaMD90
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:36 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 12):
Someone with tourettes is considered to have a disability according to the DOJ, that is covered by the ADA (american disabilities act). Now can this looked at as a form of discrimination? Even given the circumstances?

Airlines are not bound by the ADA, they fall under the Air Carrier Access Act. Unfortunately I don't have the time to look up what it has to say about Tourettes, but airlines seem to have more leeway. Plus, a lot of this hangs on the Captain, and minus misconduct, it's kinda hard to form a good case against his judgement... it was his job to ensure the safety and orderly conduct of the flight and I'm sure he did what he did in good faith, not just because he was a bigot or something

Edit: dug this up quickly:

http://www.tsa-usa.org/aPeople/LivingWithTS/Air_Travel.htm

"Indeed, there is only one reason you can legally be refused service by an airline in the US because of your disability. If you behave in a way that actually harms, or threatens to harm, others on the plane you can be refused boarding or removed from the flight. This rule applies to anyone who flies, of course, not just people with TS. If you worry that your tics might be misinterpreted as potentially dangerous (for example, if you have a thrusting arm or leg movement), that’s probably a good reason to contact the airline in advance to ensure that accommodations are in place."

This is gray area... I can see how saying "bomb" over and over could be seen as dangerous or threatening...

[Edited 2013-04-27 19:41:38]
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
INFINITI329
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:22 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
Airlines are not bound by the ADA

After a quick google search, i found that in 2008 a federal judge ruled the the ADA applies to both airports and airlines
 
Av8tor
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:30 am

No doubt a tough situation, but I would have done the same thing that this Captain did.
 
mjoelnir
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:36 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):

Have you really read that link?

Not a lot of gray in this area!
"The Seligman case also established that the ACAA applies to people with TS specifically, regardless of the nature or severity of their tics, including major body movements and coprolalia. Your tics may be annoying or even offensive to someone on the flight, but unless they are actually dangerous, you are covered."

There is even a Complaint Resolution Officer who has do be immediately available.

I am pretty sure that the captain is either a bigot or missed the training about TS.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:23 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 18):
Have you really read that link?

Yes and again:

"Indeed, there is only one reason you can legally be refused service by an airline in the US because of your disability. If you behave in a way that actually harms, or threatens to harm, others on the plane you can be refused boarding or removed from the flight. This rule applies to anyone who flies, of course, not just people with TS. If you worry that your tics might be misinterpreted as potentially dangerous (for example, if you have a thrusting arm or leg movement), that’s probably a good reason to contact the airline in advance to ensure that accommodations are in place."

I think that's kind of gray. Gray enough to give the captain the benefit of the doubt until we hear more information.

Hearing "f**k!" all flight may be annoying, but I'm sure hearing "bomb" all flight might strike real fear into some people, and I can see that misconstrued as a threat. Now if you or I were there..... but we weren't so I guess it really doesn't matter. To me it sounds like the airline should send out a memo to its pilots regarding the issue, pull the captain aside and explain the rules and what he should do, and let him off without discipline. As I said, I'm pretty sure the captain was just doing what he thought was right, without prejudice, but we weren't there so it's hard to say

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 16):
After a quick google search, i found that in 2008 a federal judge ruled the the ADA applies to both airports and airlines

Hm, I've heard many times from this site that ADA doesn't apply to the airlines. Guess that's what I get from trusting a.net  
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
silentbob
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:46 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 16):
After a quick google search, i found that in 2008 a federal judge ruled the the ADA applies to both airports and airlines

That's interesting, my manual states that the ADA does not apply to us and it has been updated fairly recently. Was there an appeal to that decision?
 
mjoelnir
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:48 am

Once again:

TS fails under the The Air Carrier Access Act.

"The Seligman case also established that the ACAA applies to people with TS specifically, regardless of the nature or severity of their tics, including major body movements and coprolalia. Your tics may be annoying or even offensive to someone on the flight, but unless they are actually dangerous, you are covered."

"Coprolalia is involuntary swearing or the involuntary utterance of obscene words or socially inappropriate and derogatory remarks." (Wikipedia)

Unless you can explain how the utterance of "bomb, bomb and so on" can actually bring a plane down it falls under the above.

Another quote from http://www.tsa-usa.org/aPeople/LivingWithTS/Air_Travel.htm :

"You may find that not all airline employees are as aware of their responsibilities as they should be. Accordingly, if you suspect your TS might draw unwelcome attention from either airline employees or fellow passengers, you need to know and assert your rights."

The right of the passenger is mentioned here, not the right of the captain or crew to refuse the passenger the right to fly.

[Edited 2013-04-27 22:04:30]

[Edited 2013-04-27 22:05:33]

[Edited 2013-04-27 22:06:57]
 
flymia
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:51 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 12):
Someone with tourettes is considered to have a disability according to the DOJ, that is covered by the ADA (american disabilities act). Now can this looked at as a form of discrimination? Even given the circumstances?


The law is the captain has a final say. We have seen this again and again and we have yet to see U.S. federal courts making a serious ruling on this. For two reasons either it is not a big problem or the courts have agreed with the captains. I am not saying what the captain did was the right decision all I am saying is the captain or the airline won't lose in a law suit if it got that far. Most airlines would just want to settle anyway, it would be cheaper.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 14):
Yes the captain has the final say.. but his decision must fall within the law no matter what the situation may be..this involves someone with a disability its whole different animal vs someone screaming racial or religious discrimination.. I am not saying the captain's decision was wrong I'm just asking if it could be looked at that way...


Airlines are govern by the Air Carrier Access Act, FAR, the Airline Deregulation Act etc.. Congress has made it clear that airlines need to follow the laws they specifically make for them. The law says captain has final say and the decision is fine unless it was arbitrary and capricious. It is clearly not the case in this situation.
See a case named Rubin v. United Airlines. It is a 9th Circuit Federal case so it is not case law in all states but this is one of the more famous cases and when determining if a passenger should be denied boarding or kicked off a place the 9th Circuit pretty much said that Airlines have Common Law and Statutory Duty of Utmost Care of Passenger Safety. As long as the decision was exercised in Good Faith and for a Rational Reason, Not Arbitrary and Capricious, it is OK. This is clearly the case here. And keep in mind this is the 9th Circuit the most liberal circuit in the country.

49 U.S.C. 40127(a): An air carrier or foreign air carrier may not subject a person in air transportation to discrimination on the bias of race, or national origin, sex or ancestor.
(b) Permissive Refusal, “Might be inimical to safety”

There is NO liability unless the decisions shown to be arbitrary or capricious.
The FAA Act of 1958 states FAA act of 1958: A carrier may refuse transportation to a passenger or property when in the opinion of the carrier such transportation would be inimical to safety of flight. You can't really second guess this stuff. (if in doubt go around) Airline Captains are the last people who will second guess a decision for safety.

I think the captain had two ways to handle it. Let the passengers know someone on the plane might be yelling out "bomb bomb" but is OK, or deny boarding. I do see it as a safety problem to the passengers not only their comfort but their emotional health if all of a sudden at 35,000ft someone started saying the word bomb. People would freak out, people would want the plane to land, people might become violent to the man saying bomb. I can see a lot of bad things happening. It is not all about the plane crashing, it is about the health and safety of the passengers are a whole. The captain is completely responsible for that from flying the plane to deciding whether to land for a medical emergency.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
Airlines are not bound by the ADA, they fall under the Air Carrier Access Act.


  

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 16):
After a quick google search, i found that in 2008 a federal judge ruled the the ADA applies to both airports and airlines


What Circuit? At what level of that circuit. Might only be the case in that circuit. Congress does not like airlines having different laws in the different states hence the reason they made sure to take full control of airline regulation and state law almost never applies to anything relating to aviation safety or even business practices.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 20):
That's interesting, my manual states that the ADA does not apply to us and it has been updated fairly recently. Was there an appeal to that decision?


One federal case means nothing. Your manual is correct.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
mjoelnir
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:52 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 22):
The law is the captain has a final say. We have seen this again and again and we have yet to see U.S. federal courts making a serious ruling on this. For two reasons either it is not a big problem or the courts have agreed with the captains. I am not saying what the captain did was the right decision all I am saying is the captain or the airline won't lose in a law suit if it got that far. Most airlines would just want to settle anyway, it would be cheaper.


Everybody can agree on that I think.
Nobody overruled the captain, the flight left without the passenger.

Quoting flymia (Reply 22):
Airlines are govern by the Air Carrier Access Act, FAR, the Airline Deregulation Act etc.. Congress has made it clear that airlines need to follow the laws they specifically make for them. The law says captain has final say and the decision is fine unless it was arbitrary and capricious. It is clearly not the case in this situation.


That is exactly the point:

The captain did not follow the Air Carrier Access Act.
The captain ruled arbitrary and capricious.

https://www.disability.gov/home/i_want_to/disability_laws/air_carrier_access_act_(ACAA)

It starts with: "§ 382.1 Purpose.
The purpose of this part is to implement the
Air Carrier Access Act of 1986 (49 U.S.C.
41705), which provides that no air carrier
may discriminate against any otherwise
qualified individual with a disability, by
reason of such disability, in the provision of
air transportation."

This a simple but all including statement, I did not find an exclusion for Tourette Syndrome.
I do not see in what way the ACAA is less far reaching than ADA.

If the captain was afraid of a panic he could have made an announcement about a passenger with TS.
 
silentbob
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:09 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 23):
If the captain was afraid of a panic he could have made an announcement about a passenger with TS.

And had he done so, both the pilot and the airline would likely be facing a lawsuit for humiliating the passenger. Someone repeatedly saying "bomb" is not likely to find many crews willing to take them.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 21):
Unless you can explain how the utterance of "bomb, bomb and so on" can actually bring a plane down it falls under the above.

There are many kinds of danger on an airplane, blowing up is not the only potentially dangerous thing that can happen. There are conflicts in the cabin every day and it's not unlikely that this individual could have caused someone else to snap.
 
FCAFLYBOY
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:12 am

Oh my goodness, the level of ignorance being shown in this thread is embarrassing to mankind.

DeltaMD90 - go and do some homework before stating your very uneducated opinions.

Some sufferers of Tourette's can help manage their condition with medication, yes, but that does not always stop the ticks and essentially it's a motor function of the brain which is outside of human control mostly.

Whilst I would never compare it with a serious and potentially terminal illness such as cancer, in many cases the 'embarrassment' and social ramifications of Tourette's can be DEVASTATING for the sufferer. Ever heard about the teenager arrested and almost sent to trial for calling someone the N word? Same thing.

If JetBlue really were aware of this, then this is a VERY poor show from one of my favourite airlines. There was absolutely nothing stopping ground or flight/cabin crew from making an announcement at/during/after boarding to explain there MAY be some disturbance and why etc etc...

I am more than sure the poor passenger humiliated in this way would have much preferred to have been explained than booted of the flight.

I hope the captain is sued and I hope the guy wins. Absolutely disgusting way to treat a human being with a known medical condition, which is also KNOWN to be highly circumstantial in its 'content' ie airport = bomb

[Edited 2013-04-28 00:18:50]
 
anstar
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:13 am

Quoting tonystan (Reply 5):
It's Tourette's, it's a condition which can't be helped. It's like cancer.....would you forbid someone from travelling if they suffered some form of cancer???? No!

You cant compare the 2. Cancer is likely not going to cause a disturbance to fellow passengers either.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 10):
The airline accepted the passenger knowing his condition.

Very true , but did they know he was going to be saying bomb?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):

This is gray area... I can see how saying "bomb" over and over could be seen as dangerous or threatening...

Quite... especially in this day and age.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 21):
Unless you can explain how the utterance of "bomb, bomb and so on" can actually bring a plane down it falls under the above.

Well it is a pretty severe word to be using in an airport or an aircraft and carries severe penalties for the average joe. So I would say it is classed as being threatening to other passengers.

If he was saying the f workd over and over - no big deal.... but come on - bomb on an aircraft? I agree with the captains decision.
 
FCAFLYBOY
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:17 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 24):

I guarantee you the pax involved would have had no problem whatsoever with an announcement being made, if it meant he was allowed to fly as per conditions if carriage allowed him to.

USA needs to realise that being too afraid of a lawsuit all the time to do you job properly and professionally, with respect and compassion, is NOT acceptable and in many cases, as I'm sure with this one, it actually causes then.

Ignorant little man that captain. Arrogant and Ignorant.
 
mjoelnir
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:23 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 24):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 23):
If the captain was afraid of a panic he could have made an announcement about a passenger with TS.

And had he done so, both the pilot and the airline would likely be facing a lawsuit for humiliating the passenger. Someone repeatedly saying "bomb" is not likely to find many crews willing to take them.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 21):
Unless you can explain how the utterance of "bomb, bomb and so on" can actually bring a plane down it falls under the above.

There are many kinds of danger on an airplane, blowing up is not the only potentially dangerous thing that can happen. There are conflicts in the cabin every day and it's not unlikely that this individual could have caused someone else to snap.

So the Air Carrier Access Act should just be disregarded by aircrews and airlines?

The Act is to make it possible for disabled and handicapped persons to fly.

The crew could have asked the passenger if he would agree to an announcement.
 
FCAFLYBOY
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:23 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 26):

If they had been made aware, I assume someone at B6 had done they homework on the condition.
If they had done so, they would of KNOWN how un-PC and inappropriate the language used often is.

It should have come as NO shock to staff that the word bomb may be used if they were properly informed of this pax in advance. No excuse. Epic fail JetBlue.
 
flyingthe757
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:46 am

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 27):
I guarantee you the pax involved would have had no problem whatsoever with an announcement being made,

I'm pretty sure some people would have been less then ok to be on a long flight with someone yelling bomb every few minutes or so, even after an explanation...
 
blueflyer
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:41 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 23):
The captain ruled arbitrary and capricious.

I think it may not be as easy as you think to get a judge to agree. Others may chime in with a more complete legal argument, but for the decision to be arbitrary and capricious, you need at least one of two things:
a) the person didn't have the right to make that decision (I hope we can agree a pilot has final authority);
b) there is no rationale between the facts available at the time the decision was made and the decision itself (I think you will have a hard time making a case that it is irrational, not just erroneous, but irrational to conclude that someone screaming "bomb" may pose a threat to himself or others).

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 23):
which provides that no air carrier may discriminate against any otherwise qualified individual with a disability, by reason of such disability, in the provision of air transportation

You overlook the significance of by reason of such disability. In plain English, this means no airline can discriminate against someone who is disabled solely because they are disabled. It does not prevent an airline, or a pilot, from refusing to transport someone whose disability is deemed a safety risk to the aircraft, the other passengers or indeed themselves. See below.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 21):
The right of the passenger is mentioned here, not the right of the captain or crew to refuse the passenger the right to fly.

The right to crew to refuse a passenger is in the Air Carrier Access Act. See §382.31 (d):
Carrier personnel, as authorized by 49 U.S.C. 44902, 14 CFR 91.8, or 14 CFR 121.533, may refuse to provide transportation to any passenger on the basis of safety, and may refuse to provide transportation to any passenger whose carriage would violate the Federal Aviation Regulations. In exercising this authority, carrier personnel shall not discriminate against any qualified individual with a disability on the basis of disability and their actions shall not be inconsistent with the provisions of this Part. In the event that such action is inconsistent with the provisions of this Part, the carrier shall be subject to remedies provided under § 382.65.

For your reference, 14 CFR 91.8, and 14 CFR 121.533 are the federal aviation regulations (FAR) making the captain legally responsible for the safety of the aircraft, crew, passenger and cargo.
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
FCAFLYBOY
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:08 am

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 30):

I think you may have misunderstood my point, which was about the guy involved, not the other passengers.

However, I see no reason why other pax should be alarmed provided the situation had been explained properly, with compassion and understanding, which it was not.

Yes, some may still have felt uncomfortable, but then how many feel uncomfortable on any given flight even without a Tourette's sufferer using the B-word. Anyone really that uncomfortable could always choose not to fly, right?
 
silentbob
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:16 am

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 27):
Ignorant little man that captain. Arrogant and Ignorant.

And what kind pf person partakes in anonymous, online defamation of another person?

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 28):
So the Air Carrier Access Act should just be disregarded by aircrews and airlines?

The Act is to make it possible for disabled and handicapped persons to fly.

The crew could have asked the passenger if he would agree to an announcement.

Our company doesn't have a policy about making an announcement like that. Doing so would end up with a letter in your personnel file, at a minimum. If the passenger decided to sue, it would be much worse.
 
FCAFLYBOY
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:38 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 33):

You are right, I only have the facts provided to go on. However it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it, so I'd appreciate it if you could add something to the argument (either side) rather than try to belittle my opinion on the subject. You're essentially doing the same to be honest. I'm quite sure I don't need to start quoting the millions of other examples of this having occurred many times on this forum.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 33):

Does your company allow employees to see if this is something that could/should be done, or is that out-of-the-box type of thinking frowned upon. At my company, discriminating against disability is illegal. I believe it's an EU thing.
 
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fallap
Posts: 727
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:09 am

Being terrified by someone yelling b

Quoting silentbob (Reply 33):

Your Company? The Vatican Airlines?

Sorry had to ask :b

But sad that he was thrown off the aircraft, I have tourettes myself (Not as bad as his though)
Grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
 
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EA CO AS
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:22 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 18):
There is even a Complaint Resolution Officer who has do be immediately available.
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 23):
The captain did not follow the Air Carrier Access Act.
The captain ruled arbitrary and capricious.

I'm a trained CRO for a major U.S. carrier.

Allow me to enlighten you:

14 CFR 382.19:

A carrier may refuse to provide transportation to any passenger on the basis of safety, or to any passenger whose carriage would violate FAA or TSA requirements. Carrier personnel may determine there is a disability related/direct threat safety basis for refusing to provide transportation to a passenger with a disability.


Frankly, I believe the captain made the right decision, but not because the customer posed a threat to the safety of others, but rather to himself. In today's world, someone saying "bomb" repeatedly onboard an aircraft runs the risk of being attacked by other passengers who perceive that individual as a threat to their safety and/or the safety of the aircraft.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
tonystan
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:38 am

Quoting Jpax (Reply 9):
It's Tourette's, it's a condition which can't be helped. It's like cancer.....would you forbid someone from travelling if they suffered some form of cancer???? No!

It is absolutely NOT like cancer, and it is offensive that you would even compare the two. As a captain, I would have taken the same course of action. 150 other passengers do not deserve to be terrified the entire flight because of a teenager yelling bomb.

It have you ever had cancer???? I'll speak FROM EXPERIENCE! Being 22 with such a condition changes a person and really allows you view the pettiness of the human condition I'm a different way.

Yes it's not like cancer,,,It can be cured like me!

But you wouldn't dream of refusing travel to a cancer sufferer because that person has no choice but to endure the pain. Likewise a Tourette's sufferer has no choice but to go with the flow of their condition!

I'm DISGUISTED at the ignorance on this thread regarding the condition!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
tonystan
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:46 am

Quoting Jpax (Reply 9):
It's Tourette's, it's a condition which can't be helped. It's like cancer.....would you forbid someone from travelling if they suffered some form of cancer???? No!

It is absolutely NOT like cancer, and it is offensive that you would even compare the two. As a captain, I would have taken the same course of action. 150 other passengers do not deserve to be terrified the entire flight because of a teenager yelling bomb.

Have you ever had cancer???? I'll speak FROM EXPERIENCE! Being 22 with such a condition changes a person and really allows you see the peculiarities of the human condition!

Yes it's not like cancer.....cos in many cases like my own cancer can be cured....Tourette's can't. It's a neuro psychiatric condition which in its minor forms usually just exhibits itself in tics but in its extreme form can result in vulgar language or socially inappropriate comments (hence bombs) and cannot always be controlled by the individual.

But you wouldn't dream of refusing travel to a cancer sufferer because that person has no choice but to endure the pain. Likewise a Tourette's sufferer has no choice but to go with the flow of their condition!

I'd happily welcome a Tourette's sufferer on one of my flights and I'd ensure that all those in the vicinity of the customer would clearly see how at ease I am at interacting with the DECENT HUMAN BEING as this should be all that's needed to allay any fears. And those that do have a problem....well sorry but it is just your problem!

I'm DISGUISTED at the ignorance on this thread regarding the condition!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
rwy04lga
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:53 am

Quoting tonystan (Reply 5):
It's like cancer.....would you forbid someone from travelling if they suffered some form of cancer????
Quoting toobz (Reply 7):
Somebody with cancer would not be yelling bomb out loud. That's the difference.

  

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 30):
Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 27):
I guarantee you the pax involved would have had no problem whatsoever with an announcement being made,

I'm pretty sure some people would have been less than ok to be on a long flight with someone yelling bomb every few minutes or so, even after an explanation...
Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 32):
Anyone really that uncomfortable could always choose not to fly, right?

Duct tape would cause less discomfort all around. Would the TS sufferer also be willing to endure discomfort in the form of his mouth being strapped up? If we should be willing to suffer his sufferings, and since he's already suffering, shouldn't he be willing to take on even more suffering. 'You find the duct tape over your mouth uncomfortable?' 'You can always choose not to fly!'
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
flymia
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:02 pm

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 25):
I hope the captain is sued and I hope the guy wins

The airline would be sued not the captain, but if the case actualy got as far as trial I think the airline would win. We have pointed to the law. The law is clear. The captain has the right to refuse boarding for a very wide range of reasons this being one of them.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 36):
14 CFR 382.19:A carrier may refuse to provide transportation to any passenger on the basis of safety, or to any passenger whose carriage would violate FAA or TSA requirements. Carrier personnel may determine there is a disability related/direct threat safety basis for refusing to provide transportation to a passenger with a disability.
Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 27):
I guarantee you the pax involved would have had no problem whatsoever with an announcement being made, if it meant he was allowed to fly as per conditions if carriage allowed him to.

We do not know that. We can only guess if that was an option.

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 27):
Ignorant little man that captain. Arrogant and Ignorant.

He made a decision for the safety of his flight. I am sure plenty of pilots would have done the same. I am sorry but if an announcement which even if the passenger said would be ok it could have still lead to big problems. Much bigger legal problems than denying him boarding.

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 27):
USA needs to realise that being too afraid of a lawsuit all the time to do you job properly and professionally, with respect and compassion, is NOT acceptable and in many cases, as I'm sure with this one, it actually causes then.

Obviously the captain was not afraid of a law suit. The employees from the captain to the gate agents don't have much time to figure this out. We can sit here all day and think about it they could not. Was everything handled perfectly? No probably not. But was this some horrible case of discriminating against a person or the captain going outside of what the law allows him? Not even close.
If the passenger sues I don't see him wining in a trial. But it would not get that far anyway.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
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garpd
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 27):
Ignorant little man that captain. Arrogant and Ignorant.

You're judging a person you do not know from far away with the benefit of having all the time in the world to consider the situation. That in itself makes you guilty of being the same as you charge this Captain of being. Ignorant and arrogant.
You do not know him. You do not have the well being of 100+ other passengers to think about.

This Captain made a decision that benefited the majority of those under their charge. I see no evidence of ignorance, arrogance or bigotry in his/her actions. I am seeing it in a lot of posts on this thread however.

I'm sick an tired of the majority always having to make way and suffer inconveniences brought about them from a minority. Then when something has to be done that does not benefit the minority, somebody screams "Oooohh, racist/ bigotry/ arrogance/ blah, blah, blah".

If this Captain had decided to keep him on board and explained to the passengers what was up, I'm sure some here would still take exception to that and cry the bigotry and insensitive cards.
If this Captain had decided to keep him on board and not explain the situation to the other passengers, there would likely be several lawsuits being filed for putting people in a position of feeling terror and fear for their lives.

If the family of this man knew he was agitated about something, they had a duty of care to re-arrange travel or ensure a means of sedation. I know they will have seen some agitation. I've seen it myself.
I have a friend who's cousin has TS. When they are left with no choice but to fly, they offer him a mild sedative which keeps him calm and quiet. No one is inconvenienced, every one's well being is unbroken. They get to their destination without embarrassment and he enjoys his holidays. If he is too stressed about something, they re-arrange dates until he's fit to fly. Bottom line is, they take responsibility. They know his mood swings an the signs of agitation in his face.

[Edited 2013-04-28 10:01:45]
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DeltaMD90
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:51 pm

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 25):
I hope the captain is sued and I hope the guy wins. Absolutely disgusting way to treat a human being with a known medical condition, which is also KNOWN to be highly circumstantial in its 'content' ie airport = bomb

Again, I'm sure the captain was doing what he thought was the best thing in his opinion, and wasn't full of hate, unlike you right now. You know, personally (and without being there,) I would try and accomidate the guy, maybe talk privately to those around the guy and do everything I could to take him.

But you were not there so how can you pass judgement on the guy? What about people with legitimate phobias (ie medical conditions) of flying? What if this guy's medical condition starts messing with other medical conditions? We can what if all day, point is, neither me nor you know what all the facts were so passing judgement on him like you're doing is wrong IMO

Lay off the hate, man. If this captain is indeed an ignorant bigot, then I'll join ya in hoping he gets disciplined.
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
FCAFLYBOY
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:59 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):

You have not read my post in response to yours I see.

Quoting garpd (Reply 41):

We are bit discussing racism/ bigotry here people. This is discrimination against a certified condition/disability. That's entirely different.

Quoting flymia (Reply 40):

Is there no law in the US that prevents persons from being discriminated against on medical grounds of disability/illness .... If not, why not?! Though I'm fairly sure there is.

Quoting flymia (Reply 40):

Rubbish. Tourette's is in no way an endangerment to the flight. Again, I'm sure if for some reason the captain had requested additional security check, the pax would of complied (not that they would be necessary).

I'm sorry this smacks of ignorance and captain power trip. Prove to me he was a danger to safe flight, such as a terrorist or a drunk, then I'll agree with you.

Quoting garpd (Reply 41):

Just to highlight it again, your post sums up just one of the many things wrong with the human race today.
 
flymia
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:35 pm

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 43):
Is there no law in the US that prevents persons from being discriminated against on medical grounds of disability/illness .... If not, why not?! Though I'm fairly sure there is.

There are plenty of laws. Aviation has their own set of laws and in aviation the Captain has the final say and unless the decision was made in bad faith the decision is fine. The buck stops at the captain it is as simple as that. Captain is the end all say all.

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 43):
Rubbish. Tourette's is in no way an endangerment to the flight. Again, I'm sure if for some reason the captain had requested additional security check, the pax would of complied (not that they would be necessary).
I'm sorry this smacks of ignorance and captain power trip. Prove to me he was a danger to safe flight, such as a terrorist or a drunk, then I'll agree with you.
Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 43):
I'm sorry this smacks of ignorance and captain power trip. Prove to me he was a danger to safe flight, such as a terrorist or a drunk, then I'll agree with you.

How about this:
Again making an announcement about the man having TS would probably be an even larger legal problem. So lets assume the airline does not want to take the chance of making this announcement. So the captain allows the man to board. If there are any law enforcement officers on the plane I would imagine the captain would at least tell them about the man.

At 35,000ft the man starts talking about bombs and the word bomb continues to come out of his mouth. I am not sure if he would just say bomb or say other things which have to do with bombs. The passengers near him hear this, they become concerned, other passengers get scared and freak out. His friend says don't worry he just has TS. They now think his friend is in on it too. People start to freak out, demand the plane land right away, possibly demand the men be restrained or just restrain them themselves. This is not about the plane crashing, it is about the mental and physical health of the passengers on the plane. If someone started saying "fire fire" on the plane it would not turn out well either.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
AA94
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 43):
I'm sorry this smacks of ignorance and captain power trip. Prove to me he was a danger to safe flight, such as a terrorist or a drunk, then I'll agree with you.

I think you're really off base here. I would be uncomfortable spending several hours in a confined space with a man yelling / speaking "bomb," or really just yelling in general. And now, before you get all crazy and accuse me of being insensitive to people with disabilities, I'd like to inform you that I volunteer some time at a local assisted living home and have spent a great deal of time with people who have various mental and physical disabilities. So let's not even go there.

I think that JetBlue should have done some research and seen that this kind of thing was a real possibility, and stopped things before they got started. If I were the captain, I'd've done the same thing.
If you can't take the heat, you best get out of the kitchen
 
mjoelnir
Topic Author
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:57 pm

It is very clear to me that for most of your here on airliners.net the Air Carrier Access Act ist just a farce to be ignored if it will inconveniance the crew or other passengers.
It does not seem to bother most of you that a person, having anyway drawn the short straw in his live has been deeply humiliated.

The passenger behaved exactly like a person with Tourette Syndrom is likly to behave.
It is a condition which falls under the ACAA.
The airline was informed about the passenger in advance.

The savety argument should not be a conveniant way out for the crew, but a reaction to a defined danger and the decision of the captain should be reasonable and not arbitrary.

If your arguments are right, that the captain can for any imagined rather than a real danger decline to transport a person with Tourettee Syndrom, what is the use for a law like the ACAA?

And could anybody define for me in what way transporting this customer would have infringed on any other law regarding flight?

It is always easy to hide behind the savety argument to not of following the law if it is inconvenient.


It does not in this case look like the passenger is on the way to sue the airline. Blue jet seems to have refunded the ticket and offered a free flight at a later date.
 
JHCRJ700
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:43 pm

Quoting toobz (Reply 1):
I don't. Everyone has this sense of entitlement and its being taken too far. We are far too concerned about being sensitive. It's time to stop. Ultimately it is up to the captain of the flight. It's also very unnerving to other passengers on board. I'm not saying its right or wrong. When someone like the captain has final say it's really up to him (her) and his (her) feelings. they are responsible for the aircraft. Time to accept that.

Agree, Agree, Agree! Ultimately theres dozens of other people on that flight. I understand tourettes and know that the person can't help it, but at the same time would you want your young children on a flight with someone blurting out profanities? Love what you said about the pilots as well my friend. They should be the ultimate authority on the flight. If the captain feels that the person isn't fit to be on the flight that should be the end of it.
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PETRHSR
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:14 pm

The passenger's mistake was being born with tourettes instead of spending his life gorging on KFC and Krispy Kreme and turning into a huge massive fatty. Be denied boarding because you are 100kg overweight and you get international media attention and any number of fat-power groups offering you support to punish those who have so grievously wounded you.

Attempt to board with an inherited neuropsychiatric condition, for which there is no cure or universally accepted medical treatment, and it doesn't matter how much you forewarn the carrier, it's up the discretion of the Grand Arbiter of All Matters (the Captain) to overrule weeks of careful planning?

Sometimes we all have to take a step back and be a little less precious. There was no physical danger to anyone here, and I am not convinced that this would have caused any more distress than a screaming toddler.
First class isn't a seat, it's a lifestyle.
 
canyonblue17
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Man With Tourette Syndrome Denied Boarding

Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:49 pm

First off, this is a very difficult call, and I agree in the end - it is the pilot's call. Second, I would highly doubt this decision was with arbitrary or capricious, as the pilot has to have all passengers safety concerned. And three, even if the pax is OK with announcing to the everyone on board that he is only saying the B- word because of his illness there is still a potentially dangerous problem - what if there is a legitimate B- on board and when someone screams about it everyone ignores it?
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