QF175
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:20 am

G'day and welcome to the Australian Aviation Thread # 72. In the previous thread, the following points were discussed/raised:

* Virgin Australia takes delivery of its sixth A330-200 VH-XFG 'Terrigal Beach'
* Air New Zealand announces seasonal Perth - Christchurch services with 767s
* Virgin Australia announces a new Global Wallet travel card
* Jetstar and Qantas A330s
* Qantas International operations
* QF Gala Dinner to celebrate launch of EK partnership
* Skywest/Virgin Australia's newly-acquired A320 due to be painted in the VA livery
* Jetstar A330 VH-EBS and conversion to QF spec
* Avalon Airport in talks with an International carrier
* Jetstar rumoured to be looking at removing A330s from MEL-DPS and cancelling AKL-SIN
* Emirates and Qantas marketing and advertising
* Australia and the Philippines pave way for nonstop flights from Philippines to Avalon Airport
* United 747-400s sustains damage at Melbourne Airport
* ACCC approves Virgin Australia's 60% stake in Tiger Airways
* Tiger Airways Australia operations, possible new BNE base
* Operations to regional/smaller airports in Australia
* SQ increases stake in VA (to 19.9%)
* Rumours about Qantas' Dallas operations - possible change to westbound services
* Qantas A380 deliveries in the years to come
* Virgin Australia's A330s
* Future flying for Qantas' A380s, A330s and 747s
* Qantas to lease a 747-400ERF, to be painted in the Qantas Freight scheme
* The first Fokker 50 in Virgin Australia livery is revealed
* China Southern to launch A380 services to Sydney from October
* Qatar Airways still hopeful of launching 787s on its PER services
* Qantas pushes for stronger ties with LATAM
* Emirates and Qantas - supposed strong increase in bookings to regional Australia
* Future International services from the Pilbara and Kimberleys

Australian Aviation Thread # 71
 
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EK413
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:00 am

Quoting QF744ER (Reply 167):
-QPA is currently on it's way to SIN as QF6019.

Rumours are saying for painting but i'm not 100% convinced.

The aircraft positioned into SIN to form the QF6

EK413

[Edited 2013-04-29 04:01:31]
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
qf002
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:28 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 1):
Quoting QF744ER (Reply 167):
-QPA is currently on it's way to SIN as QF6019.
Rumours are saying for painting but i'm not 100% convinced.

The aircraft positioned into SIN to form the QF6

Apparently QF35 MEL-SIN was cancelled, so they positioned the aircraft to cover the return leg. Must have been a busy day for them to bother flying a plane up.
 
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mariner
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:46 pm

To pick up on the last thread, it seems crazy to me that in terms of national transport infrastructure - and for the want of $10-$20 million - there is no international airport at BME, and no international service at KTA, if only to SIN.

Broome is potentially a great tourists destination and if it is too expensive for Australians to get there (which seems equally crazy) bring in the international tourists, and not just from SIN.

Some important destinations are within the A320 or 738 range from BME/KTA, as is anywhere in Australia and for my money, this is why Australia needs a genuine LCC - one that is not beguiled by the eastern seaboard.

High fares to Broome? A halfway imaginative LCC would fly two or three times a week each from MEL/SYD/ADL-BME, even CBR, with onward service to SIN - or Lombok, or Bali, or Balikpapan or Kota Kinabalu, Penang, Langkawai, Ko Samui and even Phuket.

There's no market to Ko Samui or Langkawi, I hear you cry? Flight Centre has been doing a big campaign here for both and if there's some market from NZ there has to be a bigger market from Oz.

It can happen from DRW, I hear you cry? Sure it can, but Broome has better beaches than Darwin and a somewhat pleasanter climate. Summer's hot in Broome, sure, but it doesn't have the Silly Season that Darwin does whereby cops have to escort folk going dollaley from the summer heat to better climates.

I feel as if Australian aviation is stuck in the WW2 concept - where, in the final analysis, only the eastern seaboard was to be defended, bugger the rest of Australia.

mariner
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Mikey86
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:33 pm

In the previous thread there was mention about BNE rumoured for an EK A380. Does anyone have a source for this? Or know where the rumour started. I have checked the GDS and the timetable display in Sabre is still showing 77W, as per below:

¤QNZ/ZZS02OCTBNEDXB-EK«
1 EK 433 0230 1245 I BNEDXB 3 AJCYKBQLV 77W 1
2 EK 435 2100 0520*1 I BNEDXB 3 AJCYKBQLV 77W 0

Checked NOV13 and still the same.

Any info would be great.
mikey86 - Greenslopes, Queensland
 
zkokq
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:39 pm

Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 4):

Should be announced soon by EK. The word I been given is it will be annouced for Oct 3rd, as EK are just waiting for frames.
 
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qfvhoqa
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:32 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):

While I agree that BME should be able to attract more tourists than it currently does, is Asia the right place to attract them from? It does indeed have beautiful beaches, but there are so many places that you can find this that are much closer to SIN, and are nowhere near as expensive as BME is. Australia has priced itself out of the market for much of Asia with regards to beach holidays - CNS similarly suffers from high prices.

The DRW "hub" has been attempted by JQ somewhat feebly. It managed to do SIN, DPS, MNL-NRT but hasn't gone any further (why no CGK?). It seems that among Australian airlines, the prevailing thinking is to go for the low-hanging fruit of flights that serve SYD, MEL or BNE. So rather than stimulating or creating a market, everybody just wants their piece of the same pie.
 
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mariner
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:50 am

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 6):
While I agree that BME should be able to attract more tourists than it currently does, is Asia the right place to attract them from?

Sorry, I didn't mean that Asian tourists would just be for BME.

I think it is going to be a very long time before, say, Kota Kinabalu or Penang can can support long haul, non-stop service from/to MEL or SYD. For anyone from there going to MEL or SYD they have to connect somewhere, and why not make that somewhere on Australian soil?

So I think that BME can be used as a jumping off point for Australians going to nearer Asia and a connection point for folk coming from nearer Asia to Oz, and some might take the chance to stay in Broome for a few days.

The same could be said of DRW or KTA - I don't discount either of them.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 6):
The DRW "hub" has been attempted by JQ somewhat feebly. It managed to do SIN, DPS, MNL-NRT but hasn't gone any further (why no CGK?). It seems that among Australian airlines, the prevailing thinking is to go for the low-hanging fruit of flights that serve SYD, MEL or BNE. So rather than stimulating or creating a market, everybody just wants their piece of the same pie.

Exactly my point. And why no CGK?

I dunno that my solution is the right one - I just think there are opportunities that are being ignored.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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qfvhoqa
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:42 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
I think it is going to be a very long time before, say, Kota Kinabalu or Penang can can support long haul, non-stop service from/to MEL or SYD. For anyone from there going to MEL or SYD they have to connect somewhere, and why not make that somewhere on Australian soil?

Very true that BKI & PEN will take quite some time before they get non-stop service to SYD or MEL. Or for that matter USM, CEB or SUB. But I'm not sure an Australian airline would be best to serve these routes. Their cost structures wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of 5J or AK who can connect the pax over their hubs. I think that the lower ticket price will trump being able to connect in Australia for many pax.

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
I dunno that my solution is the right one - I just think there are opportunities that are being ignored.

There certainly are. Who will be the first to grab them? I don't think Australian carriers will be.
 
RyanairGuru
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:54 am

Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 4):
Does anyone have a source for this? Or know where the rumour started. I have checked the GDS and the timetable display in Sabre is still showing 77W

It's pretty much confirmed internally at both EK and BNE.

If I was been cynical I would say that it hasn't been publicly announced because they're waiting to see whether PER can get their s#@* together before the end of the year. If they can then BNE might be pulled, at least on the short-term until more frames arrive.

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
High fares to Broome? A halfway imaginative LCC would fly two or three times a week each from MEL/SYD/ADL-BME, even CBR, with onward service to SIN - or Lombok, or Bali, or Balikpapan or Kota Kinabalu, Penang, Langkawai, Ko Samui and even Phuket.

I agree 100% with your sentiment. I don't blame QF or even VA, but JQ or TT should have seen more potential in a northern hub.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 6):
So rather than stimulating or creating a market, everybody just wants their piece of the same pie.

Yep, that's why IMHO JQ or TT growth is finite in Australia, whereas FR can grown infinitely. Sure, Europe is much more densely populated than Australia, but that's almost meaningless as FR don't try to find existing passengers in the obscure places they fly to, but rather create a whole new market that didn't exist before. If FR were in Australia they would be flying 73Hs into DUB, EPR, and DPO.

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
There's no market to Ko Samui or Langkawi, I hear you cry?

It's sad that Australian tourists heading to the Asian islands are so focussed on Bali and Phuket, arguably the least desirable two! I have no doubt that there is a market to Koh Samui, Langkawi, Krabi, Koh Lanta etc, especially if the flight price was reasonable.

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
why no CGK?


I believe that Australia is maxed out on its bilateral right to Indonesia. Because everybody and their dog wants to fly a 737 or A320 to DPS, there are no rights left to fly to Bandung, Semarang, Medan etc, or even more frequency to CGK, which would arguably bring much greater benefits in terms of trade and investment to both the Australian and Indonesia economies. But no, DPS it is.

[Edited 2013-04-29 19:58:09]
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vhebb
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:57 am

 
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qfvhoqa
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:11 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 9):
I believe that Australia is maxed out on its bilateral right to Indonesia. Because everybody and their dog wants to fly a 737 or A320 to DPS, there are no rights left to fly to Bandung, Semarang, Medan etc, or even more frequency to CGK, which would arguably bring much greater benefits in terms of trade and investment to both the Australian and Indonesia economies. But no, DPS it is.

There are currently 50 seats available per week for flights from SYD/MEL/BNE/PER to Indonesia. However flights from other cities are unlimited so JQ (or anyone) is free to fly DRW-CGK. There are also 2500 seats available from SYD/MEL/BNE/PER if there is an intermediate stop elsewhere in Australia. So an airline could run SYD-ADL-CGK or MEL-DRW-SUB if it so chooses.
 
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mariner
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:43 am

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 8):
But I'm not sure an Australian airline would be best to serve these routes. Their cost structures wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of 5J or AK who can connect the pax over their hubs. I think that the lower ticket price will trump being able to connect in Australia for many pax.

There's so more to tourist Australia than just SYD, MEL, ADL or BNE - and many tourists want to see more, especially "outback."

An intermediate connection point - BME/DRW/KTA, say - gives them the opportunity to see more of Australia, even if it just mobs of 'roos and flocks of emus and galahs, and see SYD or MEL as well, all on one ticket.

I am not suggesting daily service to everywhere or even anywhere. I'm a big fan of the Allegiant model, once or twice weekly to highly desirable places from Podunk, Nebraska. 4 x weekly is a high frequency route for Allegiant.

One day, some Australian airline exec is going to twig that Allegiant has the highest priced ($90) airline stock on Wall Street and has done for some time, despite flying ratty ol' gas guzzling aircraft and making a big bunch of it's money from ancillary revenue.

And a smart exec might work out why - and if that model might, just might, work here.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-29 20:59:00]
aeternum nauta
 
Mikey86
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:58 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 9):
It's pretty much confirmed internally at both EK and BNE.

If I was been cynical I would say that it hasn't been publicly announced because they're waiting to see whether PER can get their s#@* together before the end of the year. If they can then BNE might be pulled, at least on the short-term until more frames arrive.

Awesome, thanks matey. Now here is a question - if we can the A380 will it be an additonal service added to the BNE schedule or just up-gauging?
mikey86 - Greenslopes, Queensland
 
eaglefarm4
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:25 am

Mickey86 i was the original poster, the EK 380 is replacing the EK434-435.... 777-300 on DXB-BNE-AKL rtn.No additional flights.

Scheds will be updated late May or early June.
tourismman
 
jetfuel
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:36 am

Quoting eaglefarm4 (Reply 14):
Mickey86 i was the original poster, the EK 380 is replacing the EK434-435.... 777-300 on DXB-BNE-AKL rtn.No additional flights.

Scheds will be updated late May or early June

ThankGod. EK's 777 Y class is horrid.
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
BHMNONREV
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:40 am

Quoting vhebb (Reply 10):
Darwin Airport will be expanded including a new Virgin and Qantas lounges:

I have flown in and out of Darwin several times since I arrived here in January, and I can honestly say the place is always packed. There are four gates with jet-bridges and they always seem to be occupied, as well as 4-5 hardstands serviced by ground loading. DRW at 6am is an absolute zoo, with nary a seat in the departure lounge to be had. I just arrived on QF824, a 767 from BNE and there were no empty seats on the plane. In fact they had to do a tail swap at BNE to a different A/C as there was a rudder actuator issue, so we were transferred to an international configured 763 and some business class passengers were left behind as a result of the swap.

I believe according to the DRW masterplan they will add 2-3 more gates as well as first floor space (check-in, security and baggage claim). Looks to be well overdue IMHO.
 
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EK413
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:04 am

Quoting eaglefarm4 (Reply 14):

Mickey86 i was the original poster, the EK 380 is replacing the EK434-435.... 777-300 on DXB-BNE-AKL rtn.No additional flights.

Scheds will be updated late May or early June.

Safe to say this is a direct response of the QF/EK Alliance & hopefully receive ACCC approval across the Tasman?

EK413
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jrfspa320
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:31 am

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 16):
I have flown in and out of Darwin several times since I arrived here in January, and I can honestly say the place is always packed.

Agreed this work should have been carried out months ago..is QF looking to upgrade any 767 to A330?
 
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EK413
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:42 am

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 18):
is QF looking to upgrade any 767 to A330?

The A330 will eventually replace the B763 fleet.

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
ADDICT4QF
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:44 am

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 18):
Agreed this work should have been carried out months ago..is QF looking to upgrade any 767 to A330?

All B767 services will eventually be downgraded to B738s with the exception of the Triangle (SYD/BNE/MEL) or PER-SYD,MEL,BNE.
 
vhebb
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:18 am

I think the current daily BNE-DRW-BNE B763 service will eventually become A330 as it carries plenty of freight from inbound Asia and USA flights.
 
zkokq
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:33 pm

1st of Dec will see JAL swtich their Sydney service to a 787! It will currently be the first airline to operate the 787 into SYD
 
RyanairGuru
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 3:52 am

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 18):
is QF looking to upgrade any 767 to A330?

QF have previously operated the A330 on BNE-DRW.

Back when HKG departed around midnight, they operated an international 333 between international turns.

The patterns went:

SIN-BNE
BNE-DRW
DRW-BNE
BNE-HKG

and:

HKG-BNE
BNE-SIN

This was 4x weekly (IIRC) as HKG was less-than-daily.

As said up-thread, the cargo on the route probably precludes it from going to a 737 route. The new international schedules (SIN and HKG leaving at exactly the same time) mean that they can no longer run up to DRW between international turns, but they could fit in an A330 turn between peak-hour SYD flights with something like

SYD-BNE (7am departure)
BNE-DRW
DRW-BNE
BNE-SYD (7pm departure)
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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EK413
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 4:58 am

Qantas is temporally suspending BNE - MNL & MNL - BNE services due to works commencing on the 1 & only runway in BNE airport.

The BNE sector will now operate direct SYD - MNL with effected passengers being rerouted via SYD or offered an alternative.

Sorry, I don't have a source available.

EK413
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thegeek
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 5:05 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 24):

Huh? Surely BNE-LAX would be the first service to be affected if there were works on 01/19 at BNE. I'm pretty sure 14/32 is back in service too.
 
RyanairGuru
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 5:11 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 25):
Surely BNE-LAX would be the first service to be affected if there were works on 01/19 at BNE

The works are between 11pm and 6am, I think. MNL-BNE arrives at something like 4am, so it is affected. QF15/16 is not.

EK, SQ, CX, and MH have all had to retime their flights out of BNE in order to accommodate the runway closing over night.

[Edited 2013-04-30 22:12:43]
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EK413
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 5:14 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 25):

Quoting EK413 (Reply 24):

Huh? Surely BNE-LAX would be the first service to be affected if there were works on 01/19 at BNE. I'm pretty sure 14/32 is back in service too.

I agree with your point however I believe the decision was based on slot constraints & in turn BNE-LAX is given priority over the 1 x weekly service which operates Ex-BNE on Thursdays.

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
eaglefarm4
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 6:53 am

Surely QF 19 could operate SYD-BNE-MNL at least give the Queenslanders one sector non stop.
tourismman
 
qf002
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 11:05 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 24):
Qantas is temporally suspending BNE - MNL & MNL - BNE services due to works commencing on the 1 & only runway in BNE airport.

I wonder how permanent this might become? I'm sure that there are better places for QF to utilise their resources than a single weekly VFR flight (unless there is mining related traffic?). I'm all for service from cities other than SYD, I'm just surprised that MNL has survived/not been consolidated down here.
 
ADDICT4QF
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 11:13 am

I would bet on it not reverting back to SYD-BNE-MNL. It's useless to have a 2pw service.
 
ADDICT4QF
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 11:17 am

QF is apparently looking into the feasibility of flying into PHX off the back of the AA/US merger.

I am assuming this will be ilo fly to DFW (which would make a return directly to SYD) or one of the two SYD-LAX services.

Does anyone have any idea of what incremental cities are gained/lossed if PHX was started ilo of DFW or one of two LAX services?
 
qf002
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 11:24 am

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 32):
I am assuming this will be ilo fly to DFW (which would make a return directly to SYD) or one of the two SYD-LAX services.

We're probably looking 5+ years down the track here, so why not a daily 789 to both DFW and PHX? PHX probably also makes more sense for potential future MEL/BNE services given the distances involved.
 
Sydscott
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 11:28 am

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 32):
QF is apparently looking into the feasibility of flying into PHX off the back of the AA/US merger.I am assuming this will be ilo fly to DFW (which would make a return directly to SYD) or one of the two SYD-LAX services.Does anyone have any idea of what incremental cities are gained/lossed if PHX was started ilo of DFW or one of two LAX services?

Here's a thought, we've all been focused on how QF can drop BNE from the DFW-BNE-SYD service and have been focused on routes such as AKL-DFW. DFW-PHX-SYD, rather than DFW-BNE-SYD could be a viable alternative. With PHX turning into an AA hub there could be some incremental traffic from places LAX doesn't connect into while at the same time picking up traffic East of DFW although PHX would basically be a fuel stop.

Considering how annoyed QF are with Brisbane Airport and the dispute over paying for the new runway, there could actually be a great political incentive for QF to do this.
 
zkokq
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 11:35 am

Anyone know of fuel dramas in SYD? Qantas are tanking fuel for returns to Brisbane tonight?
 
RyanairGuru
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 11:58 am

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 32):
I am assuming this will be ilo fly to DFW

I'm not sure about that, it would be quite a sizeable reduction in connection opportunities, especially to East Coast markets.

That said, changing a LAX frequency could be interesting, it would open up a lot of connections to the West/Mountain West/Midwest that currently involve a back-track from DFW.

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 32):
Does anyone have any idea of what incremental cities are gained/lossed if PHX was started

Looking at US destinations from PHX, this brings pretty broad coverage of the West and Mountain West that isn't there at the moment. I'm not sure how big the market is to these destinations, but they could be interesting additions.

Seattle, Portland and Spokane aren't currently available via AA, although QF does offer codeshare with AS.

US has a pretty amazing coverage of CA, although many of the destinations are already served with AA via LAX (MRY, FAT, SBA, SFO, SAN). The only real additions are Bakersfield San Luis Obispo, as many of the others are near existing AA ports (OAK, SJC = SFO; BUR, LGB, even PSP = LAX)

Ditto AZ, NM, NV where AA actually has pretty good coverage ex LAX.

The biggest additions are in the Mountain West, although I'm not sure how many people fly SYD-BOI?!?

All up, I'm not sure that there is much benefit of US at PHX.

For reference, from PHX US flies to:

Pacific North West

Seattle
Portland
Spokane

California

Oakland
San Jose
San Francisco
Fresno
Monterrey
Bakersfield
San Luis Obispo
Santa Barbara
Burbank
Palm Springs
Ontario
Los Angeles
Long Beach

Arizona/Nevada

Flagstaff
Tucson
Yuma
Reno
Las Vegas

Mountain West

Salt Lake City
Grand Junction
Boise
Denver
Durango

Texas/New Mexico

Dallas/Fort Worth
Houston (Bush)
Austin
El Paso
San Antonio
Albuquerque

Midwest

Kansas City
St Louis
Omaha
Des Moins
Minneapolis/St Paul
Milwaukee

Illinois/Ohio/Indiana/Michigan

Chicago (O'Hare)
Indianapolis
Detroit
Columbus

North East

Boston
New York (JFK)
Newark
Pittsburg
Philadelphia
Baltimore
Washington (National)

South/Florida

Charlotte
Raleigh/Durham
Atlanta
Orlando
Tampa
Fort Lauderdale

Canada

Calgary
Edmonton

Mexico

Hermosillo
San Jose Cabo
Puerto Vallarta
Ixtapa
Mexico City
Guadalajara
Cancun

Costa Rica

San Jose

As for what would be lost by withdrawing from DFW I have neither the time nor inclination to write out every city, but this should give you an idea:



[Edited 2013-05-01 05:00:30]
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
RyanairGuru
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 12:02 pm

Quoting sydscott (Reply 34):
DFW-PHX-SYD, rather than DFW-BNE-SYD could be a viable alternative. With PHX turning into an AA hub there could be some incremental traffic from places LAX doesn't connect into while at the same time picking up traffic East of DFW although PHX would basically be a fuel stop

Now that's not a bad idea at all!

As you say PHX could basically be a fuel stop, while also allowing easy connections to destinations that are west of DFW and not served from LAX. It could almost be the best of both worlds.



For anyone who is interested, times for a hypothetical SYD-PHX-DFW-PHX-SYD rotation could look something like this:

Northern Summer:

SYD-PHX 12:00-09:30
PHX-DFW 11:00-15:15
DFW-PHX 21:00-21:30
PHX-SYD 23:00-07:45

Northern Winter:

SYD-PHX 15:00-10:30
PHX-SYD 12:00-15:15
SYD-PHX 20:30-22:00
PHX-SYD 23:30-09:15

(NB: the times get pretty out of whack between the seasons because AZ doesn't observe DST)

[Edited 2013-05-01 05:28:05]
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 12:42 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 30):
I wonder how permanent this might become? I'm sure that there are better places for QF to utilise their resources than a single weekly VFR flight (unless there is mining related traffic?). I'm all for service from cities other than SYD, I'm just surprised that MNL has survived/not been consolidated down here.

So am I. It wouldn't surprise me if QF are testing the waters & the BNE will be permanently dropped.

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 31):
I would bet on it not reverting back to SYD-BNE-MNL. It's useless to have a 2pw service.

Useless indeed unless they bump up frequencies which doubt considering PR will be introducing a service.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 33):
We're probably looking 5+ years down the track here, so why not a daily 789 to both DFW and PHX? PHX probably also makes more sense for potential future MEL/BNE services given the distances involved.

With all the talk about B787's being deployed on the Pacific routes, wouldn't the ETOPS implications be an issue?

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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 12:49 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 38):
It wouldn't surprise me if QF are testing the waters & the BNE will be permanently dropped.

I always thought that the value of BNE-MEL was in cargo?

If that's the case then there should still be a market there. After all, PR is going to be using an A320 with only limited space below.
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Wed May 01, 2013 12:57 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 39):
I always thought that the value of BNE-MEL was in cargo?

We all know belly cargo is a money maker, therefore a valid point. In spite of this QF will use the opportunity to test the waters.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 39):
PR is going to be using an A320

Yuck! What an awful way to fly long haul and from memory the service is via DRW.

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Thu May 02, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 37):
With all the talk about B787's being deployed on the Pacific routes, wouldn't the ETOPS implications be an issue?EK413

It rather depends which city pairs and which airways are used.
A flight plan that I have a copy of shows a DFW-SYD airways route that heads due west from DFW and picks up the airway from LAX-SYD. This is all 180-min territory. It is 7569nm and on the day it took 16hr 09min. The ESAD was about 7700nm . A 789 would be only good for about max passenger load ( 280 seats) on such a route.
A 560t MTOW / 292t DOW A380 would be good for ~420 passengers. The 777-9X would work rather well on this one .   In the FWIW department the A380 would burn ~ 205t of fuel and the 789 ~86t.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Thu May 02, 2013 5:57 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 40):
Quoting EK413 (Reply 37):
With all the talk about B787's being deployed on the Pacific routes, wouldn't the ETOPS implications be an issue?EK413

It rather depends which city pairs and which airways are used.
A flight plan that I have a copy of shows a DFW-SYD airways route that heads due west from DFW and picks up the airway from LAX-SYD. This is all 180-min territory. It is 7569nm and on the day it took 16hr 09min. The ESAD was about 7700nm . A 789 would be only good for about max passenger load ( 280 seats) on such a route.
A 560t MTOW / 292t DOW A380 would be good for ~420 passengers. The 777-9X would work rather well on this one . In the FWIW department the A380 would burn ~ 205t of fuel and the 789 ~86t.

Based on your calculations 2 x B787's daily would carry 560 passengers 172t fuel burn versus 484 passengers 205t fuel burn making it far more viable.

Qantas have indicated the B787 will be deployed on the route but 'apparently' QFs A380 don't have the range to operate DFW?

Other news tonight's QF1 SYD to DXB service has been rescheduled 22:00 departure.

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/plan...ults&wsrp-mode=&wsrp-windowState=&

EK413

[Edited 2013-05-01 22:58:55]
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Thu May 02, 2013 6:17 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 26):
The works are between 11pm and 6am, I think. MNL-BNE arrives at something like 4am, so it is affected. QF15/16 is not.

Tks. I didn't see that news. A few EK and other flights would be affected too wouldn't they?

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 40):
A 789 would be only good for about max passenger load ( 280 seats) on such a route.
A 560t MTOW / 292t DOW A380 would be good for ~420 passengers. The 777-9X would work rather well on this one . In the FWIW department the A380 would burn ~ 205t of fuel and the 789 ~86t.

That's interesting. It seems that it's only 53nm longer flying DFW-BNE via SAN. So even the direct path might only add a few passengers on the A380. Oh, but going to SYD adds 89nm.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Thu May 02, 2013 6:35 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 42):
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 26):
The works are between 11pm and 6am, I think. MNL-BNE arrives at something like 4am, so it is affected. QF15/16 is not.

Tks. I didn't see that news. A few EK and other flights would be affected too wouldn't they?

I believe EK have rescheduled their flights accordingly.

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Thu May 02, 2013 7:38 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 41):
Based on your calculations 2 x B787's daily would carry 560 passengers 172t fuel burn versus 484 passengers 205t fuel burn making it far more viable.

CASK is not just about fuel burn. There's also aircraft ownership costs and crewing costs, both of which would favour the A380 on a per passenger basis. I expect these would swing it in favour of the A380, or the A380 would not be a very attractive aircraft to buy. Hypothetically, the A380s advantages could be cancelled out by the payload hit but by the time 787-9s are available for the flight QF would have 573t A380s or better, which I expect would be able to make the trip with a bit of cargo.

Quoting sydscott (Reply 33):
DFW-PHX-SYD,

Interesting thought, but I couldn't agree with dropping DFW-SYD for such a flight. But there may be demand for it along side DFW-SYD, dropping capacity on the second SYD-LAX flight. I'd suggest this is more likely 787 territory though.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Thu May 02, 2013 9:19 am

All this talk to PHX as either a fuel stop or destination may be moot. I recall in the many AA/US merger threads that it was widely believed the PHX hub will end up being downsized for its proximity to LAX. If there are fewer connections available it becomes less attractive to stop there. There has to be a reason that currently the only destination outside North America is LHR.

Even if PHX stays as a hub, it won't a oneworld hub for some time until the merger is complete. I think QF needs to look for a different solution. What that should be I'm not sure, but an aircraft that can reliably fly DFW-SYD can't come soon enough.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Thu May 02, 2013 9:21 am

All international airlines have rescheduled their BNE ops due to the runway closure .
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Thu May 02, 2013 9:37 am

Quoting eaglefarm4 (Reply 46):
All international airlines have rescheduled their BNE ops due to the runway closure.

Cheer up the A380 is heading for BNE soon 

Qatar Airways (QR) will officially join the oneworld Alliance in October, its entry is being sponsored by British Airways. BA and QR will look at co-operation and code-sharing on QR's Australian operations DOH-PER and DOH-MEL. BA has already entered into a comprehensive code-share agreement with Cathay Pacific on services from AKL/SYD/MEL/BNE/CNS/ADL/PER to HKG.
Very interesting news considering QF has bailed ship and join forces with EK (I support QFs decision) however I'm curious if this was on the cards prior to the announcement?

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[Edited 2013-05-02 02:47:42]
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Thu May 02, 2013 9:52 am

Quoting zkokq (Reply 22):
1st of Dec will see JAL swtich their Sydney service to a 787! It will currently be the first airline to operate the 787 into SYD

In other words, the beginning of the end for JAL in SYD.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 72

Thu May 02, 2013 9:57 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 48):

I which way?