C010T3
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TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:05 pm

With LATAM's radical decision to retire 10 TAM A332 this year, routes were bound to be discontinued.
Here are the news from announcements to the touristic trade that can be confirmed through the GDS:

GIG-FRA and GIG-CDG will be axed effective August 12th, 2013. The announcements mentioned August 11th, but they weren't very clear. Sabre still shows availability for August 11th, but not beyond that date. Consider the flights zeroed out.

The news about GIG-LHR came through the HOTRAN filings. Effective July 7th, TAM's GIG-LHR will be downgauged to a 2-class B763. That route will be the first allocation of the ex-LAN birds.

It's not all bad news at GIG though. TAM's GIG-JFK will also be downgauged to a B763 effective August 12th, but it will at least go daily overnight both ways.

http://www2.anac.gov.br/hotran/
 
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yellowtail
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:34 pm

So much for Europe Brazil printing money
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
winGl3t
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:38 pm

There are rumors inside the company that MIA-MAO will also be axed.
 
skipness1E
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:48 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
With LATAM's radical decision to retire 10 TAM A332

Do we know what 10 are going?
 
TC957
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:54 pm

Well, I guess good news for AF, LH and BA then with no direct competition, or less competition in BA's case. Also less seats now available for next summer's football World Cup. Wonder if AF & LH will look to the A380 now to serve GIG.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:12 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
Do we know what 10 are going?

AFAIK, 4 of them would have their leasing expiring this year. Seems that Latam negotiates to return a little more than that due to light load factors than expected.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 4):
Well, I guess good news for AF, LH and BA then with no direct competition, or less competition in BA's case. Also less seats now available for next summer's football World Cup. Wonder if AF & LH will look to the A380 now to serve GIG.

It would make AF and LH life easier for sure as they will see no competition anymore on CDG-GIG and FRA-GIG. AF can even think about a 3rd flight and LH can upgauge FRA-GIG easily.
As for the A380, i bet AF will be the one looking to fly it to Rio de Janeiro.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LAXintl
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:18 pm

Has traffic/economy softened so much out of Brazil that LATAM believes this is a good opportunity to consolidate and reduce capacity at this time?
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:23 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
Do we know what 10 are going?

I only know about PT-MVA.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):

Has traffic/economy softened so much out of Brazil that LATAM believes this is a good opportunity to consolidate and reduce capacity at this time?

I don't think so, but LATAM is eagerly pursuing fleet harmonization. They want an all-Boeing widebody fleet as soon as possible.

[Edited 2013-04-29 16:26:53]
 
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yellowtail
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:02 am

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 2):
There are rumors inside the company that MIA-MAO will also be axed.

Well if DL couldn't make MAO work from ATL, there is no way in hell JJ could make it work from MIA      
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:07 am

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 8):

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 2):
There are rumors inside the company that MIA-MAO will also be axed.

Well if DL couldn't make MAO work from ATL, there is no way in hell JJ could make it work from MIA      

Oranges and apples... TAM operates this routes for more than a decade... Delta barely did it. Very unfortunate comment.
 
java6673
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:43 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 7):
LATAM is eagerly pursuing fleet harmonization. They want an all-Boeing widebody fleet as soon as possible.

What will be next? change of name to LAN Brazil, perhaps!!
 
OB1504
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:48 am

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 2):
There are rumors inside the company that MIA-MAO will also be axed.

I know loads don't tell the whole story, but after seeing how empty AA's MIA-MAO flights leave, I'm not surprised JJ is struggling with the route, too.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 8):
Well if DL couldn't make MAO work from ATL, there is no way in hell JJ could make it work from MIA

You have it backward.
 
mia305
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:54 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 9):

AA has MIA-MAO and so far it works for them with a 738.

JJ has a 763 on the MIA-MAO flight could it be they have to big equipment
and downgaudge it to a 320 to make it work?
 
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yellowtail
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 9):
Very unfortunate comment.
Quoting OB1504 (Reply 11):
You have it backward.

People...it was meant as a joke! eesh!   
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
fly2yyz
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:39 am

I'm with many others on here... where are the A332s going? They aren't old at all are they? Were they outright owned or going back to lessor?
 
AF022
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:46 am

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
With LATAM's radical decision to retire 10 TAM A332 this year

Was this discussed on another link somewhere?
 
SCL767
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:52 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 7):
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
Do we know what 10 are going?

I only know about PT-MVA.

PT-MVB, PT-MVC and PT-MVD will also leave the fleet.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:54 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Has traffic/economy softened so much out of Brazil that LATAM believes this is a good opportunity to consolidate and reduce capacity at this time?

The results of Brazilian carriers have been surprisingly rough for a while. Very little seems to work for G3 in the international arena, and apparently JJ is having troubles as well. Surprising, considering how much consolidation has been going on
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
G3787
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:07 am

Hello Avianca: HELP!!!
 
AF185
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:29 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 4):
Wonder if AF & LH will look to the A380 now to serve GIG.

AF-KLM's CEO (Alexandre De Juniac), confirmed in last October they were considerring sending the A380 to GRU and BSB as off 2014.
With TAM pulling out of the GIG-CDG route, I am sure GIG will also be strongly considered depending on the a/c availability.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:36 am

Here is the important question. What engines are being retired? We've had threads on how TAM operates all three engine types on the A330!   

TAM A330 Engine Question (by TR May 10 2005 in Civil Aviation)

So is any one engine type being returned preferentially, or is it a mix? I'm very curious to know the answer to this...

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 1):
So much for Europe Brazil printing money

That was my thought. Is Europe to Brazil saturated? How are the yeilds? Is this a TAM issue or macro economics?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Has traffic/economy softened so much out of Brazil that LATAM believes this is a good opportunity to consolidate and reduce capacity at this time?

Strange to do just 3 years before the Olympics though... business should be growing as Brazil hires contractors to build up the infrastructure for the games... Something does not compute.... If anyone has an economic history, I would appreciate hearing the story.

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 14):

I'm with many others on here... where are the A332s going?

As already noted in post #5 by LipeGIG, they are expired and early returns to leasors. The A332 will be easy to place with another airline.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:44 am

In regards to the A332 fleet. MVA is already being prepared to be returned. Other 3 will follow shortly and then the 3 JJ B763. The expectation was that, 7 widebodies would be removed from the fleet, 2 B77W would join, and then LA would transfer 6 B763 (with 30J Flat beds) to fly

GIG-MIA and MIA-MAO-MIA - 2 frames
GIG-JFK - 2 frames
GIG-LHR - 1 frame
CNF-MIA/BSB-MIA - 1 frame
During the day, probably they will fly GIG-EZE.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
Strange to do just 3 years before the Olympics though... business should be growing as Brazil hires contractors to build up the infrastructure for the games... Something does not compute.... If anyone has an economic history, I would appreciate hearing the story.

And one year before the World Cup, considering Rio will be the top destination. In fact they will axe the routes even a few weeks before the Rock in Rio 2013.
Business in Rio is growing, but it seems the reason is the poor load factor systemwide, and they will not cut other hubs...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
That was my thought. Is Europe to Brazil saturated? How are the yeilds? Is this a TAM issue or macro economics?

We continue to see new businesses coming. Last week i helped one corporation from UK, one from California and another one from New York... all to open new offices in Rio. France is investing billions together with Brazil to build a few submarines for the Brazilian Navy near Rio, Nissan/Renault is building a major plant to produce 200,000 cars a year 100Km south of Rio, audience for the new oil round in Rio was never so busy as it is expected for now... but we grow too much based on credit and we are paying the price.
I would say it is a macroeconomics issue that generate lower LF and not so profitable operations. But flights from Rio, specially Rio-Paris, Rio-London and Rio-New York, are doing very well due to heavy business activity and limited premium seat supply.

The big winner here for sure is Air France as they manage to have a very strong brand in Rio. As i said before i will not rule out a simple and quick upgauge of the daylight to a 772 or 77W, and even a 3rd flight. Latam is probably not expecting a reaction, at this time, and in my view they could be surprised with a mutual one from AF and LH.
7 years to build a secondary hub, and now they will just give up.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
abrelosojos
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:02 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
The results of Brazilian carriers have been surprisingly rough for a while. Very little seems to work for G3 in the international arena, and apparently JJ is having troubles as well. Surprising, considering how much consolidation has been going on

= Yup. It continues to amaze me at how many ways Brasil and India are similar. Sad to see LAN Chile destroy JJ's core routes instead of building them up further. Seems like LA is content to funnel everyone through MAD.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:10 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
The big winner here for sure is Air France as they manage to have a very strong brand in Rio. As i said before i will not rule out a simple and quick upgauge of the daylight to a 772 or 77W, and even a 3rd flight. Latam is probably not expecting a reaction, at this time, and in my view they could be surprised with a mutual one from AF and LH.
7 years to build a secondary hub, and now they will just give up.

So is this standing down a hub? For if AF&LH are ready to expand, did TAM just not have the 'market presence?'

I'm generally curious as LATAM was on a roll...


Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
abrelosojos
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:13 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
I'm generally curious as LATAM was on a roll...

= If decisions are made in Santiago, it won't necessarily have GIG's best interest in mind.

I personally will maintain that this is an extremely short-sighted decision. Brasil is the growing economy and the most important in Latin America. Moving out of the 2nd largest city is a very myopic decision.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:05 am

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 24):
= If decisions are made in Santiago, it won't necessarily have GIG's best interest in mind.

Isn't LAN starting (or has started already) a SCL-GIG-MIA flight?
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
stylo777
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:44 am

This will not only positivly effect AF and LH, but also the gulf carriers and TK.
I can also imagine an upgauge on the GRU routes of all carriers.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:31 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 25):
Isn't LAN starting (or has started already) a SCL-GIG-MIA flight?

= A route that JJ would have done themselves no?

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
LJ
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:58 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
The big winner here for sure is Air France as they manage to have a very strong brand in Rio. As i said before i will not rule out a simple and quick upgauge of the daylight to a 772 or 77W, and even a 3rd flight.

I would expect that AMS-GIG will become daily in W13 (or at least an additional upgauge) to funnel connecting or lower yielding traffic via AMS.
 
mercure1
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:15 am

Yes might be short sighted decision but in practical terms is Brazil economy not cool down much recently?

I just read that Brazil is forecast to be the poorest BRIC performance this year. Forecast growth is down, Real value has shifted, retail spending down, reduced exports, inflation is up, etc.

Here are a couple stories from this week
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...onomy-retail-idUSL2N0CY0HO20130411
http://www.foxbusiness.com/news/2013...-hurt-bottom-line-at-brazil-banks/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoz...nomy-get-ready-for-the-correction/


Maybe LATAM thinks this slowdown is good time to push through these fleet changes, but also curbing capacity?

On subject, has LAN made any mention of placing parts of its large 787 order at TAM?
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:25 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 25):
Isn't LAN starting (or has started already) a SCL-GIG-MIA flight?
Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 27):
= A route that JJ would have done themselves no?

This one and also SCL-GRU-JFK on LA metal were not possible as the US-Chile agreement does not give such right to Chile, nor Brazilian ANAC allows it.
They open the flights for reservations and had to suspend sales. As a lot of tickets SCL-GIG-MIA were sold, Latam had to put a JJ 763 flight/crew to cover the route in select dates.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 29):
Yes might be short sighted decision but in practical terms is Brazil economy not cool down much recently?

Yes. It's colling down a lot. Some government decisions (and lack of some key changes) drive investment down.
We are in a potential trap that probably will show harder effects after the World Cup next year.

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 26):
I can also imagine an upgauge on the GRU routes of all carriers.

AF will go to 2x B77W on CDG-GRU during Iata Winter 2013/2014.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
jfk777
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:47 am

TAM started GRU to CDG & MIA in 1998 with A330-200, Varig was still around. Its Surprising TAM wouldn't extend the leases since the oldest planes are only 15 years old. TAM needs every A330 and 777 they can get there hands on. With the World Cup and Olympics in the next 3 years in Rio refleeting with smaller ex-LAN 763 doesn't seem like good planing, LAN Colombia couls use some of those 767's. While admiring LATAM and most of their descisons this one has me scratching my head ?
 
airbazar
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 1):
So much for Europe Brazil printing money

It does if you're in the right alliance. OW is all wrong for TAM in the Europe-Brazil market. There's no way IAG will let TAM compete with BA and IB in the market. While in *A, TAM had good leverage but in OW they are clearly the #3.
 
tonytifao
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:02 pm

BTW, did I possibly see a TAM 777 at MCO last thursday?
 
winGl3t
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:28 pm

quote=tonytifao,reply=33]BTW, did I possibly see a TAM 777 at MCO last thursday?[/quote]


Sure you did. TAM sent 77W to MCO on April 25th and 29th.
 
SCQ83
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:08 pm

Quoting AF185 (Reply 19):
AF-KLM's CEO (Alexandre De Juniac), confirmed in last October they were considerring sending the A380 to GRU and BSB as off 2014.

Sending the A380 to GRU and starting BSB where AF does not fly (not sending the A380 to BSB)  
 
wingman
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:16 pm

I thought I just saw a TAM 77W at FRA two days ago. Seems like a big plane to be flying on a route about to be axed. Also saw the ANA 787 being moved around one of the apron areas, at least she was moving...not like the sad old LOT 787 I saw two months ago in ORD, covered in snow and looking quite forlorn.
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:29 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 31):
While admiring LATAM and most of their descisons this one has me scratching my head ?

It actually makes a lot os sense. LATAM's results haven't been great since the merger. Of course, traffic has softened in TAM's international routes, but that's a phenomenon that is not concentrated at GIG, but the reality is that LATAM is taking the chance to chase better results in order to prove to the market that the merger is successful and that it was a good strategic decision. That needs to be done until the middle of next year, that's why capacity is being trimmed now.
Then, it gets interesting. Abandoning GIG like this is not the smartest decision per se when you think long term in the current scenario, but it is if you know what will happen in 2014. GRU will get a new international terminal, which will enable the few prime-time slots available to be used. They were unusable before because the terminal doesn't have the capacity. LATAM wants GRU as a fortress hub, so GIG in that scenario doesn't make sense for now. They will keep flights at GIG to Oneworld hubs, but that's it. Diversification will happen at GRU and fast!
 
crAAzy
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 1):
So much for Europe Brazil printing money

Not so much all of Brazil, but more like the more leisure oriented GIG market and realignment away from Star Alliance Hubs.

Quoting mia305 (Reply 12):

AA has MIA-MAO and so far it works for them with a 738.

JJ has a 763 on the MIA-MAO flight could it be they have to big equipment
and downgaudge it to a 320 to make it work?

Agreed. 763 and a 738 were too much capacity on the route and JJ is going to need the 763s to replace it's widebody Airbus. However, if JJ leave MIA-MAO entirely it may be a nice route for an AA 757.
 
aloges
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:04 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 36):
I thought I just saw a TAM 77W at FRA two days ago. Seems like a big plane to be flying on a route about to be axed.

That one would have come in from GRU. GIG-FRA is the A330 flight.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 38):
Not so much all of Brazil, but more like the more leisure oriented GIG market and realignment away from Star Alliance Hubs.

GIG is not purely a leisure market. At all, in fact. It is a massive O&D center and draws a lot of high-yielding business traffic.

GIG is not CUN, FCO nor BCN.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 30):
They open the flights for reservations and had to suspend sales.

.

Oy. What a mess.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
AF can even think about a 3rd flight and LH can upgauge FRA-GIG easily

I can see the logic behind upgauging FRA-GIG, but a 3rd daily GIG-CDG, wouldn't that be overkill?

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 37):
LATAM wants GRU as a fortress hub, so GIG in that scenario doesn't make sense for now. They will keep flights at GIG to Oneworld hubs, but that's it.

Seems to me like a vaguely defined strategy. Why place all your eggs into one basket and make GRU your primary TATL gateway?

LATAM has a lot going for it in terms of the placement of its hubs in Latin America and the future potential for capturing the high-yielding clientele and traffic flows between South America and Europe/North America. The million dollar question is, do they have a concrete network strategy in place?
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:12 pm

What are the chances of LA/JJ/IB/BA applying for an ATI/JSA type deal on the South Atlantic? Would really give oneworld serious leverage across the Atlantic if it could get such a deal through.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 37):
LATAM wants GRU as a fortress hub, so GIG in that scenario doesn't make sense for now. They will keep flights at GIG to Oneworld hubs, but that's it. Diversification will happen at GRU and fast!

If such a ATI/JSA type deal was made, I could see JJ withdrawing from GIG-LHR in favour of BA alone (possibly with a 744 or 77W vice the current 772) and launching a second GRU-LHR that it could jointly market with BA (giving BA/JJ an effective three times daily GRU-LHR service). Makes you wonder if LHR-GRU would become a BA A380 route if that happened.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
atlflyer
Posts: 574
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:26 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 7):

Doesn't TAM have A350s on order??? So why does getting rid of the Airbus widebodies make sense?
 
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FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1745
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:35 pm

What are the chances of LA/JJ/IB/BA applying for an ATI/JSA type deal on the South Atlantic? Would really give oneworld serious leverage across the Atlantic if it could get such a deal through.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 37):
LATAM wants GRU as a fortress hub, so GIG in that scenario doesn't make sense for now. They will keep flights at GIG to Oneworld hubs, but that's it. Diversification will happen at GRU and fast!

If such a ATI/JSA type deal was made, I could see JJ withdrawing from GIG-LHR in favour of BA alone (possibly with a 744 or 77W vice the current 772) and launching a second GRU-LHR that it could jointly market with BA (giving BA/JJ an effective three times daily GRU-LHR service). Makes you wonder if LHR-GRU would become a BA A380 route if that happened.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
vv701
Posts: 5783
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:41 pm

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 14):
I'm with many others on here... where are the A332s going?

BD were operating two 330-200s on lease when they were bought by IAG and merged into BA. Both aircraft were returned to their lessor last October.

G-WWBD was deregistered on 4 February as "permanently withdrawn from use". It was reported parked without engines at SFB in Basic BD livery with its titles and Star Alliance logo painted out on 17 February.

G-WWBM was returned to its lessor and ferried to VCV where it is still parked. It is still registered and it has been reported that Thomas Cook Airlines (MT) will lease it later this year.

So there is a market for used 332s even if it is not very viobrant.
 
C010T3
Topic Author
Posts: 1619
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:01 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 40):
3rd daily GIG-CDG, wouldn't that be overkill?

I also believe it would. AF-KL should focus in making AMS-GIG daily, then perhaps upgauge the existing AF flights

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 42):
Doesn't TAM have A350s on order??? So why does getting rid of the Airbus widebodies make sense?

Rumour has it that it will be cancelled, which wouldn't be that difficult considering that they're all-Airbus narrowbody. Airbus would surely accept converting those orders to the A320 family.
 
jumpjets
Posts: 1122
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
TAM's GIG-LHR will be downgauged to a 2-class B763

Interesting that the LHR route wasn't cancelled. Wonder why that was?

LHR is a stronger market just now?
BA doesn't offer the same volume of seats as do AF and LH so competition for traffic is less?
or
LATAM are slot sitting until LAN is ready to send us a 787 from SCL or LIM to LHR? [maybe wishful thinking]

Any thoughts?
 
LJ
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RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:04 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 44):
So there is a market for used 332s even if it is not very viobrant.

SN Brussels is in teh market for two additional A330s, though the rumours are that teh've already an eye on their 9th (not an ex JJ). Moreover, UX maybe in the market for some.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 45):
I also believe it would. AF-KL should focus in making AMS-GIG daily, then perhaps upgauge the existing AF flights

I agree, though after the current increase KL is already at 5 times weekly...

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 46):
Interesting that the LHR route wasn't cancelled. Wonder why that was?

I think you the asnwer is already given.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 37):
LATAM wants GRU as a fortress hub, so GIG in that scenario doesn't make sense for now. They will keep flights at GIG to Oneworld hubs, but that's it.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5868
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:09 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 32):
It does if you're in the right alliance. OW is all wrong for TAM in the Europe-Brazil market. There's no way IAG will let TAM compete with BA and IB in the market. While in *A, TAM had good leverage but in OW they are clearly the #3

WHY is OW the "wrong" alliance for TAM ? They have been in all alliances at one point or another. First when they started flying to Paris they code shared with Air France then then they joned the Star alliance and with the LATAM merger they are going to OW. Is the correct answer the alliance that TAP is in ? TAP controls that franchise and nothing is stopping TAM from flying to Lisbon, it would be good use of LA 767. OW helps TAM to Spain, the most important Latin to Europe market, and the UK, not a very strong market from Brazil.

TAM should be able to do lots with IB and BA, they only fly to GRU & GIG and do not fly to all the regional airports TAP flies to. Feed will improve lots for IB and BA in Brazil, how is that a bad thing ?
 
Azure
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 pm

RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR

Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:36 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 37):
LATAM wants GRU as a fortress hub/

Indeed. TAM have just announced they will operate 2 777s on the GRU-CDG sector as of August 20th (capacity increase : +63% !). This is a clear indication on their plans for GRU, the busiest airport in Brazil and where most of the premium traffic is.




Quoting jumpjets (Reply 46):
Interesting that the LHR route wasn't cancelled. Wonder why that was?

Because it is a oneworld hub, with multiple possibilities for onward connections with their (new) alliance partners.

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