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KarelXWB
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:13 pm

United Airlines has placed an order for 30 76-seat Embrear ERJ-175 aircraft for United Express. United will begin to take deliveries in the beginning in 2014. All aircraft will have 12 United First seats, 16 Economy Plus seats and 48 Economy seats. Source: WSJ.



I did not see this one coming, have I slept under a rock?

[Edited 2013-04-29 14:38:22]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
RL757PVD
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:28 pm

This would be a good aircraft to bring IAH to PVD/BDL back
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FriendlySkies
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:32 pm

Source? United Continental Holdings bought their own regional jets? That kind of flies in the face of what most airlines have been doing as of late with regionals.

E-jets are nice but I am still holding out for a C-series order...
 
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KarelXWB
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:37 pm

Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
 
Goldenshield
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:43 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):

Source? United Continental Holdings bought their own regional jets? That kind of flies in the face of what most airlines have been doing as of late with regionals.

It gives them more control to whipsaw airplanes faster.
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jayunited
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:47 pm

Congrats to United I don't think anyone saw this coming.

12 seats in first class on a regional jet is a lot it will be interesting to see what routes United deploys these aircraft on.

Also if anyone would like to speculate why is the order so small the United Express fleet still has a lot of 50 seat aircraft will we see United order more E-jets or will the 50 seat jets be around for the remainder of this decade and into the next?
 
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redzeppelin
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):
Source? United Continental Holdings bought their own regional jets? That kind of flies in the face of what most airlines have been doing as of late with regionals.

Not really. No different than what DL did with the recent CR9 order. They'll own the jets, but contract the operation out to the regionals.
 
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redzeppelin
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 6):
12 seats in first class on a regional jet is a lot it will be interesting to see what routes United deploys these aircraft on.

Same configuration used by DL Connection.
 
lhcvg
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:53 pm

One thing that sticks out to me is the E+ cabin being virtually half what it is on the CR7 and E70. Is this signaling a move away from more E+ or just a coincidence that they decided to adopt the DL config?
 
Goldenshield
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 6):
Also if anyone would like to speculate why is the order so small

My speculation is that they are't going to any of the Republic clan, so, based on the launch date, this gives other carriers enough time to ramp up getting the type added to their certificate (which takes a while.)
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flyby519
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:59 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 10):
My speculation is that they are't going to any of the Republic clan, so, based on the launch date, this gives other carriers enough time to ramp up getting the type added to their certificate (which takes a while.)

Im guessing Skywest. There have been long rumors about an E-Jet program being started there, not to mention their long standing relationship with UA.
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LAXintl
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:02 pm

Now starts the fun.

Regional's can flight for the the opportunity to fly the aircraft.

  
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RodRB
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:05 pm

Press release by Embraer:

http://www.embraer.com.br/en-US/Impr...United-Airlines-para-30-EJets.aspx

btw, that's the second big order for Embraer this year!
 
shaq
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:11 pm

Also, United made an announcement at United Hub
https://hub.united.com/en-us/News/Company-Operations/Pages/united-express-to-get-new-embraer-jets.aspx
Kudos for United. This is a very comfy regional aircraft.
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jetmatt777
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:24 pm

I bet we see these flown out of EWR.
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TWA772LR
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:34 pm

Me thinks these are for ExpressJet.
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FriendlySkies
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:46 pm

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 7):
Not really. No different than what DL did with the recent CR9 order. They'll own the jets, but contract the operation out to the regionals.

In that case, any chance part of the deal involves Embraer taking back 30 E145s (I believe UA also owns those)?

Certainly not complaining, this one definitely took me by surprise.
 
LAXintl
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:54 pm

According to the Embraer press release - United also took 40 options

Also delivery is quite soon - first one in Q1 2014.
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wingnutmn
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:54 pm

Would Express Jet give up a 2-1 or 3-1 on erj145 for say a 10 year capacity agreement? I don't know how well the integration negotiations are going, but it is only a matter of time when UA does what DL did. Get on board early and hopefully get a favorable term contract for the flying?

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TWA772LR
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:57 pm

I can see the options being fulfilled and I really see these on high yield, but also long routes like IAH-DFW and Eastern Canada, and anywhere between EWR and ORD. I also don't really see these heading out west.
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atcsundevil
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:37 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 9):
One thing that sticks out to me is the E+ cabin being virtually half what it is on the CR7 and E70. Is this signaling a move away from more E+ or just a coincidence that they decided to adopt the DL config?

Yeah, me too. Unfortunately it makes me think they'll continue slashing elite benefits -- they already restricted E+ to silvers until T-24, so I wonder if this is coming for golds too...or worse, pulling the benefit at booking altogether. I've been an elite for a few years and its been one of my favorite benefits, because even if I don't get the complimentary upgrade, I know I'll still have a decent seat. In my opinion, 16 E+ seats is about 10 too few, so that definitely worries me.

What blows my mind is the 12F seats. A319s only have 8F! I suppose that's good for elites and will maybe free up some E+ seats as a result of complimentary upgrades, but it still baffles me.

Too many F seats and too few E+. Regardless, I can't complain with more E-jets because hopefully they'll replace some CRJs.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 16):
Me thinks these are for ExpressJet.

Me thinks you're right. I've heard a rumor that ExpressJet just got 175 manuals, but rumors from pilots don't often count for much. I think the only two likely operators are ExpressJet and SkyWest, but I'm personally hoping for the former.
 
E170Driver
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:53 pm

As the pilots are always the last to know the details, I haven't heard anything, but does anyone think Shuttle America will be picking up the flying being how the training program and experience with the fleet is already in play?

[Edited 2013-04-29 16:56:00]
 
lhcvg
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 21):
What blows my mind is the 12F seats. A319s only have 8F! I suppose that's good for elites and will maybe free up some E+ seats as a result of complimentary upgrades, but it still baffles me.

Yeah that is worrying on the one hand. Although, I tend to think there is such a niche -- for 76ish total seats and you sell the 12F seats, but you just can't fill enough of the back to make the next bigger thing you have (319 or 73G) work. The problem domestically is that even if you can move the 12F at reasonable rates, those just aren't expensive enough to pay the bills like 20-30 J seats are on an int'l flight.
 
flyby519
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:09 am

Quoting E170Driver (Reply 22):
As the pilots are always the last to know the details, I haven't heard anything, but does anyone think Shuttle America will be picking up the flying being how the training program and experience with the fleet is already in play?

The press release talks about these E-jets will replace 50-seat capacity, and Republic(CHQ) only has 15 E145s operating for UAX. I think it is a much more likely event that Skywest/Expressjet will start reducing E145 capacity in exchange for these E175s.

According to wiki:
Expressjet-
14 CR2
9 E135
234 E145

[Edited 2013-04-29 17:14:36]
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ordbosewr
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:13 am

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 23):
for 76ish total seats and you sell the 12F seats, but you just can't fill enough of the back to make the next bigger thing you have (319 or 73G) work.

I think we are reading too much into this. IIRC, the UA pilot contract limits them to 76 seats for Express operated planes, so that was the magic number and they probably had a decision to make the F 9 seats or 12 (assuming 3 across). If they went with 9 they may have had to all E+ in the back to make it work and that is not good either.
IIRC, if they go above 76 then it has to be operated by mainline crews. I expect to see an order in the future to do that, but they have time.

I believe this is a great solution to some of the pains that are out there for the 50 seaters.

I also love this that UA owns the aircraft because then they can determine the amenities on the aircraft. Like wifi and ovens. This is what DL is doing and it is proving successful.

Remember CO owned many of the expressjet planes for a long time, I am pretty sure that UA still owns more than a few of the express fleet, but all in the 50 seat size. This was not something pmUA did, ie buying planes for express ops.
 
deltaflyertoo
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:19 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Now starts the fun.

Regional's can flight for the the opportunity to fly the aircraft.

Okay so I know so much about the industry but don't know the deets of how this works, so sorry if stupid question.

I thought that the regionals partnered with the mainline but had to supply their own aircraft. So when you hear of United placing order, is this to suggest United would own these aircraft and then allocate them to whatever regional they see fit as a form of a lease?
 
Murf
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:27 am

In the picture in reply 1 the winglets look different....Will these 175's be coming with different winglets? They look larger and sweep out further...almost CRJ900ish...or is this just a bad picture
 
OH-LGA
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 26):
I thought that the regionals partnered with the mainline but had to supply their own aircraft. So when you hear of United placing order, is this to suggest United would own these aircraft and then allocate them to whatever regional they see fit as a form of a lease?

Not a stupid question at all.

As you state it, in the past this has been how it has worked in general within the US airline industry. DL has done it differently for many years, handling the purchasing of the aircraft and then allocating them to their regional partners as they see fit.

The second part of your question/answer is that you essentially answered it yourself. With this order (which is a definite change for United strategically), United will own the aircraft and follow Delta's lead in assigning them to a United Express partner for actual operation.
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flyby519
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 26):
Okay so I know so much about the industry but don't know the deets of how this works, so sorry if stupid question.

I thought that the regionals partnered with the mainline but had to supply their own aircraft. So when you hear of United placing order, is this to suggest United would own these aircraft and then allocate them to whatever regional they see fit as a form of a lease?

Pretty much. UA can hold the aircraft as bait and request proposals from all the regional carriers, and usually the cheapest bid wins. Partially explains why the regional airlines have such low pay and brutal working conditions.
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lhcvg
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:56 am

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 25):
I think we are reading too much into this. IIRC, the UA pilot contract limits them to 76 seats for Express operated planes, so that was the magic number and they probably had a decision to make the F 9 seats or 12 (assuming 3 across). If they went with 9 they may have had to all E+ in the back to make it work and that is not good either.
IIRC, if they go above 76 then it has to be operated by mainline crews. I expect to see an order in the future to do that, but they have time.

I get the 76-seat scope cap, my point was just that I can see how there may be legitimate demand in the system for routes with good F loads that are worth getting/keeping but, unlike international flights, that alone can't support a mainline flight.
 
MCOflyer
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:57 am

I cant wait to take a ride on these. Any word on the routes they will used on???

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FL787
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:44 am

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 9):
One thing that sticks out to me is the E+ cabin being virtually half what it is on the CR7 and E70. Is this signaling a move away from more E+ or just a coincidence that they decided to adopt the DL config?
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 21):
Yeah, me too. Unfortunately it makes me think they'll continue slashing elite benefits -- they already restricted E+ to silvers until T-24, so I wonder if this is coming for golds too...or worse, pulling the benefit at booking altogether. I've been an elite for a few years and its been one of my favorite benefits, because even if I don't get the complimentary upgrade, I know I'll still have a decent seat. In my opinion, 16 E+ seats is about 10 too few, so that definitely worries me.

What blows my mind is the 12F seats. A319s only have 8F! I suppose that's good for elites and will maybe free up some E+ seats as a result of complimentary upgrades, but it still baffles me.

Too many F seats and too few E+. Regardless, I can't complain with more E-jets because hopefully they'll replace some CRJs.

The E70 for UAX is actually 6F, 16 Y+, and 48 Y so the only difference between the E70 and E75 will be 6 first class seats. Regarding the A319, I'd bet that when they start reconfiguring them with the new slimline seats that 4 first class seats will be added for a 12F/112Y configuration.
 
PHLapproach
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:53 am

For what it's worth.. Embraer brought an CT E175 in Mid February to St. George and Atlanta for a day at each HQ for display and then took it back down to the factory... They wouldn't bring that frame all the way up from Manaus and back down if it wasn't to their advantage... http://flightaware.com/live/flight/PTTHB

[Edited 2013-04-29 19:01:06]
 
777fan
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:13 am

Quoting OH-LGA (Reply 28):
The second part of your question/answer is that you essentially answered it yourself. With this order (which is a definite change for United strategically), United will own the aircraft and follow Delta's lead in assigning them to a United Express partner for actual operation.

Under this arrangement, who would perform maintenance? If it's mainline UA, then presumably the only cost benefit would derive from flight crews (front and back). Personally, I still can't wrap my head around the ridiculously deflated wages some regionals offer.

Either way, a nice move by UA - I hope it eventually pushes the CR2s out to pasture.

777fan
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Goldenshield
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:27 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 34):
Under this arrangement, who would perform maintenance?

The regional who gets the contract does. It's part of contract fulfillment. If mainline MX fixed these planes, they'd essentially be working on planes that are not on their certificate, and thus would have to become subcontractors themselves to work on them.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 34):
Either way, a nice move by UA - I hope it eventually pushes the CR2s out to pasture.

Nope. It's just how they're going to meet the current 50 seat cap. Only the UA pilots can push 50 seat or less out entirely, and even they realize that they just can't do that without losing a LOT of markets and feed.
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codc10
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:32 am

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 21):
Too many F seats and too few E+.

And this is a problem why?  
Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 25):
I expect to see an order in the future to do that, but they have time.

A small mainline-operated jet (CSeries, MRJ, E-190/195) will be on property by 2016. The new pilot contract basically ensures that this will be the case.

Quoting FL787 (Reply 32):
Regarding the A319, I'd bet that when they start reconfiguring them with the new slimline seats that 4 first class seats will be added for a 12F/112Y configuration.

I don't think that this will be the case. Word is that an additional row of Y will be added, so the config will go to 8/118. I'd love to be proven wrong, though. We will find out soon enough as the first aircraft is in the shop undergoing the mods.
 
Mir
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:33 am

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 26):
I thought that the regionals partnered with the mainline but had to supply their own aircraft. So when you hear of United placing order, is this to suggest United would own these aircraft and then allocate them to whatever regional they see fit as a form of a lease?

Correct. In an ideal world, we'd see a scope clause that states that mainline-owned aircraft must be flown by mainline crews, which would prevent that sort of whipsawing. But it's not going to happen, because the mainline pilots would have to give up something in order to get it, and the only people it would help would be regional pilots. A real shame.

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lightsaber
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:41 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
I did not see this one coming, have I slept under a rock?

I feel the same way. I figured UA would order more 'larger RJ flying,' but I didn't expect them to by the jets.

Quoting RodRB (Reply 13):
tw, that's the second big order for Embraer this year!

Kudos to them. That will help keep the line going until E-jets with Pratts go out the door.   

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
first one in Q1 2014.

I'm confused. We're at the limit of the window for long lead time parts. Did Embraer have parts on order 'at risk' or are the vendors getting hit right now?

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ikramerica
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:56 am

Maybe the 12F can be looked at this way. It pleases the elites with a good chance of upgrade on regional routes where the block time is too short for any 21st century business to pay for F but winning over business travelers is still important. Yet the flights are short enough that Y+ won't appeal to as many paying willing to pay other than a token amount like $9.
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inaforeignsky
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:14 am

When we (XJT) were bought by Skywest Inc. in 2010, part of the deal agreed with CAL was that Skywest Inc. and thus ExpressJet would be given first refusal on the first 75 replacement aircraft for the ExpressJet 50 seaters when they started to be taken out of service. When I flew with one of our Chief Pilots back at the beginning of the year he said that the 170/175 program was already in place from back in 2007 when we nearly bought the 170 for our branded operation out west.

We have had some very strong indications in recent months that the 175s will be coming our way. Not least with our contract having recently (just three weeks ago) been amended to include rates for up to 79 seat aircraft. As a pilot group we were very upset at the new rate agreed as it makes us one of the cheapest 70+ seat pilot groups out there.

I can't see Republic getting these aircraft, particularly after just getting the 47 new 175s for AE. Compass might be in the running for them, but I would think it unlikely. Skywest Airlines is very much a CRJ airline, and I don't see that changing any time soon, plus if the aircraft were for SKW the company would have financed the purchase themselves. However, at ExpressJet a great number of our aircraft are still owned by United Continental Holdings and so I can see this being a very simple swap. However, I have a feeling it will be at least 2 145s for every 175 that comes on property.
 
silentbob
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:43 am

Quoting inaforeignsky (Reply 40):
I can't see Republic getting these aircraft, particularly after just getting the 47 new 175s for AE.

Like most regionals Republic is having problems hiring enough pilots right now. They are going to have enough problems filling the slots for the Eagle flying, I can't see any way they could do the United flying as well.

Quoting inaforeignsky (Reply 40):
I can see this being a very simple swap. However, I have a feeling it will be at least 2 145s for every 175 that comes on property.

That makes sense and will require fewer pilots, something that will appeal to most regionals right now.
 
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TWA772LR
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:54 am

If these are for ExpressJet, then would the simulator go to Houston or Atlanta?
Beauty is watching a 787 bank to make a short final. Bliss is watching that 787 with a good beer. Nirvana is all of that with a beautiful woman on your side.
 
Goldenshield
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:00 am

Quoting inaforeignsky (Reply 40):
Skywest Airlines is very much a CRJ airline, and I don't see that changing any time soon, plus if the aircraft were for SKW the company would have financed the purchase themselves.

SKYW is a little tied up with MRJ funding right now.
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F9Animal
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:05 am

I wonder if UA is looking close at the C Series?
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lightsaber
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:11 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 44):

I wonder if UA is looking close at the C Series?

I could dream.    But that would have been an MRJ order for this size of aircraft.  

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TWA772LR
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:36 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
I could dream.    But that would have been an MRJ order for this size of aircraft.  

Well, what does the new pilot contract say about scope?
Beauty is watching a 787 bank to make a short final. Bliss is watching that 787 with a good beer. Nirvana is all of that with a beautiful woman on your side.
 
jolau1701
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:43 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 43):

That's what I was thinking too.
 
Bobloblaw
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:07 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):

C-Series doesn't compete with the E175. Also UAX can't operate the C-Series.
 
Logos
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United orders upto 70 E175 Aircraft

Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:34 am

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 21):
What blows my mind is the 12F seats. A319s only have 8F! I suppose that's good for elites and will maybe free up some E+ seats as a result of complimentary upgrades, but it still baffles me.
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 23):
Yeah that is worrying on the one hand. Although, I tend to think there is such a niche -- for 76ish total seats and you sell the 12F seats, but you just can't fill enough of the back to make the next bigger thing you have (319 or 73G) work. The problem domestically is that even if you can move the 12F at reasonable rates, those just aren't expensive enough to pay the bills like 20-30 J seats are on an int'l flight.

It's called scope, folks. Their contract with mainline pilots limits regional aircraft to 76 seats, just like at Delta, which is why the relatively high number of F in this aircraft and CR9s as well. It's not really any more complicated than that.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list