LAXintl
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LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 1:34 am

Surely pending the arrival of multiple lawsuits, the Los Angeles City Council on Tuesday approved a politically divisive modernization plan for Los Angeles International Airport that is expected to cost nearly $5 billion.

The vote caps almost a decade of discussion about what to do with the northside airfield for which the FAA has sought to relocate the northernmost runway as a safety enhancement.

As part of the approved plan the 06L/24R runway would be shifted 260-feet to the north and a centerway taxiway running between the runways will be constructed similar to the southside configuration.

In addition the runway relocation the council also approved the airport to proceed with other improvements, including further phases of work at the TBIT international terminal, development of consolidated car rental facility, an elevated people mover and a transportation center with that will eventually link to local bus and light rail service.

Construction isn't expected to start for roughly five years, with the approved proposals still subject to local, state and federal environmental analysis, and mayoral approval. Its interesting as both candidates for the mayoral election next month, oppose the proposed plan.

Story:
Los Angeles Approves $5 Billion Airport Modernization
http://goo.gl/FYRoX

=

[Edited 2013-04-30 18:39:17]
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ldvaviation
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 2:20 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Surely pending the arrival of multiple lawsuits, the Los Angeles City Council on Tuesday approved a politically divisive modernization plan for Los Angeles International Airport that is expected to cost nearly $5 billion.

One can only hope that the commercial interests that stand to make millions of dollars from the contracts to build the various elements of the modernization plan, from runways to terminal, overwhelm the NIMBY groups with their money and political influence.

In the process, I hope the commercial interests and their lobbyists can debunk once and for all the idea to "regionalize air traffic." Traffic at Ontario Airport has not fallen 40% because of some LAWA conspiracy to thwart efforts at regionalization. It has fallen because no one wants to fly out of Ontario, not the airlines or the passengers.
 
LAXintl
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 2:33 am

And here comes the first grenade

Angry Coalition of Airport Communities to Challenge Leadership over Lack of Accountability at LAX
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/angry-...mmunities-challenge-000300226.html

Community activist, mayoral candidates, city council members, CA state legislator, SEIU United Service Workers, LA Airport Police union, all united against the airport plans.
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oc2dc
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 3:35 am

The moving of the runway is a massive waste of money. LAX has a good safety record and doesn't suffer from delays. There is no need to spend this ridiculous amount of money on something so unnecessary.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
In addition the runway relocation the council also approved the airport to proceed with other improvements, including further phases of work at the TBIT international terminal, development of consolidated car rental facility, an elevated people mover and a transportation center with that will eventually link to local bus and light rail service.

This portion of the project is desperately needed. I recently visited MIA and was incredibly impressed by the tram and the consolidated car rental facility. I imagine LAX's facility will be similar.

Also, I feel like the way LAX is now, its like 8 different airports on one lot. Barely any of the terminals are actually connected and it's cumbersome to transfer from terminal to terminal, especially when going from the north side terminals to the south side terminals. The new people mover will help greatly improve the transfer experience and unify the airport. Hopefully it will be a secured people mover. Do we know if it will be outside or inside security?

Exciting times for LAX...minus the runway project and the loss of our beloved in-n-out.
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LAXintl
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 4:36 am

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 3):
The moving of the runway is a massive waste of money. LAX has a good safety record and doesn't suffer from delays.

While I generally also agree its a huge financial pit, In fairness LAX does have its share of runway incursions, and also the current configuration on the north side does cause the FAA operational issues when VLAs are around.

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 3):
I feel like the way LAX is now, its like 8 different airports on one lot. Barely any of the terminals are actually connected

Its like that by design.

The central terminal area was built as individual satellite terminals with the major carriers of the times each calling one home. There was very little need to connect, as they were essentially self sufficient exclusive islands.

The design focus was to get people from the curb to their flights and back with minimal hassle or distance.

Fast forward, the airport today still works that way. Being the worlds biggest O&D airport, only a small percentage of passengers transfer, and most do so on the same carrier under the same roof, so the primary focus is still to get people from their cars to flights and back as easily as possible.

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 3):
Hopefully it will be a secured people mover. Do we know if it will be outside or inside security?

It will be outside - to connect to the proposed transit center off the airport.
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timpdx
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 4:53 am

Is this the plan that includes the big arched bridge over the connecting taxiway?
 
ldvaviation
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 5:01 am

Quoting timpdx (Reply 5):
Is this the plan that includes the big arched bridge over the connecting taxiway?

The bridge is more or less dead. The idea gaining favor now is a tunnel (with an APM) between TBIT and the Midfield concourse.
 
HNL
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 5:10 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Community activist, mayoral candidates, city council members, CA state legislator, SEIU United Service Workers, LA Airport Police union, all united against the airport plans.

Why would the LA Police Union object to this plan? Let alone the unions. Makes no sense.
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ldvaviation
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 5:22 am

Quoting HNL (Reply 7):
Why would the LA Police Union object to this plan? Let alone the unions. Makes no sense.

Let's speculate.

First of all, it is the Airport Police Union. They are a distinct entity from the LA Police Dept. Union. If I remember correctly, there was some proposal a while back to turn their jobs over to the LA Police Department. Perhaps, they think by joining this coalition that they will gain some leverage.

Same with the other union. If I remember correctly again, the SEIU has been involved in some dispute with one of the contractors at LAX. So far, LAWA has not intervened.

[Edited 2013-04-30 22:24:05]
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 5:42 am

I did my first flying to and from LAX last week...and I was completely underwhelmed. I have a new least favourite airport. I can only guess that LA hates fat people because I have never had to walk so far in my life to make a connection.

An airport that spread out with no tram or moving walkways boggles the mind. The tunnels had a lovely third world patina...the missing ceiling panels and dust bunnies the size of rottweilers were especially rustic.

My guess an earthquake would cause billions of dollars of improvements.

LAS was such a treat in comparison.
What the...?
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 6:40 am

So does this plan mean that T1-T3 will remain in addition to the midfield concourse?

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 1):
One can only hope that the commercial interests that stand to make millions of dollars from the contracts to build the various elements of the modernization plan, from runways to terminal, overwhelm the NIMBY groups with their money and political influence.

I normally don't like the idea of corporate cronyism, but these activists are purely obstructionist at this point. Their constant lawsuits are simply to protect the stupidity of those who bought property near an airport in one of the nation's largest cities.

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 3):
The moving of the runway is a massive waste of money. LAX has a good safety record and doesn't suffer from delays. There is no need to spend this ridiculous amount of money on something so unnecessary.

Its always a waste until that one tragic incursion happens, and then every blowhard politician who objects to the runway expansion then will be calling for increased safety at LAX. I'd rather spend a couple billion on runway safety improvements than see (or be one of) charred bodies strewn across LAX's runway.

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 3):
The new people mover will help greatly improve the transfer experience and unify the airport. Hopefully it will be a secured people mover.

You are totally misunderstanding the purpose of the people mover. Its purpose isn't to facilitate inter-terminal transfers, but to transport pax to/from rental, and parking/hotel transfers.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 6):
The bridge is more or less dead. The idea gaining favor now is a tunnel (with an APM) between TBIT and the Midfield concourse.

The question then becomes will the tunnel station be on the north or south of TBIT. Hopefully, AA will really lobby hard to build it on their side.

Quoting HNL (Reply 7):
Why would the LA Police Union object to this plan? Let alone the unions. Makes no sense.

I don't understand either. The airport workers should only benefit from the job security of additional infrastructure. The only thing I can think of is they want the money to be spent on wage increases.
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boilerla
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 7:32 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Fast forward, the airport today still works that way. Being the worlds biggest O&D airport, only a small percentage of passengers transfer, and most do so on the same carrier under the same roof, so the primary focus is still to get people from their cars to flights and back as easily as possible.

Although it's a stab in the dark, based on my experience I'd wager many of the transfers that do occur are: United (T7) to the Star Alliance partners in T2, and United to the Bradley. It's not that often, but it's a big pain.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
An airport that spread out with no tram or moving walkways boggles the mind. The tunnels had a lovely third world patina...the missing ceiling panels and dust bunnies the size of rottweilers were especially rustic.

  

I'd vote that the money used for the runway move be put to use in modernizing the terminal interiors. Heck, the money that will invariably be spent fighting the barrage of lawsuits from Inglewood and Westchester on the runway move alone could be put to good use. Take it, and for the love of mercy do something about T2, T3 and T6 in that order. I realize T1 will be changing soon, otherwise I'd put it on my list, and I haven't been inside T4 since American got on the wrong side of a lost luggage dispute argument. But really, compared to the bradley terminal which is quite nice inside, everything else is a dump compared to SFO, ORD....well most airports really.
 
goosebayguy
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 8:24 am

Meanwhile DXB has the worlds largest baggage hall a train to whisk you away and an entire terminal catering for the A380. LAX is falling behined massively here.
 
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EK413
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 8:57 am

Great to see vast amount of investment in LAX by modernising the facilities but what about providing some relief during peak times? We stayed at the Sheraton & the trip had taken us about 25-30 minutes!

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BHMNONREV
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 9:50 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 13):
Great to see vast amount of investment in LAX by modernising the facilities but what about providing some relief during peak times? We stayed at the Sheraton & the trip had taken us about 25-30 minutes!

I have been thru LAX several times in the last few months, and the road gridlock is absolutely horrible. Half of the traffic seems to be rental car buses and shuttles of all kinds, getting these off the roads and into a proposed consolidated facility with a people mover seems to be a good first step.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 11):
and I haven't been inside T4 since American got on the wrong side of a lost luggage dispute argument.

T4 is actually not too bad from an aesthetics standpoint, I was in there a couple days ago on the way to Brisbane but the place is an absolute madhouse at 10pm. It is in much better shape than T7 IMHO.

As far as the runway I agree with the consensus here, it is just not necessary and certainly not worth the fight which will occur. Keep all the VLA's on the 7/25's and just make LAX a more efficient facility.
 
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EK413
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 10:05 am

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 14):
I have been thru LAX several times in the last few months, and the road gridlock is absolutely horrible. Half of the traffic seems to be rental car buses and shuttles of all kinds, getting these off the roads and into a proposed consolidated facility with a people mover seems to be a good first step.

Agreed & agreed! The gridlock was mind blowing & as you quoted one of the main contributors are the car rental shuttles.

EK413
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modesto2
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 12:54 pm

I hope they put more thought into the north side's taxiways that separate the two runways. The configuration at the intersection of taxiways M and H6 on the south side creates confusion and was poorly designed as pilots often attempt to cut the corner. They should've eliminated H6, and just installed H8 and H4 for simple and easy-to-follow taxiway design.
 
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 1:13 pm

Finally! Past due! I still hold hopes of some more ground transportation expansion.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
As part of the approved plan the 06L/24R runway would be shifted 260-feet to the north and a centerway taxiway running between the runways will be constructed similar to the southside configuration.

Excellent. This will smooth out VLA operations from the new T6.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
In fairness LAX does have its share of runway incursions

About half of the US total IIRC, so a wee bit more than 'its share.'

Quoting EK413 (Reply 15):
The gridlock was mind blowing & as you quoted one of the main contributors are the car rental shuttles.

  

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
It will be outside - to connect to the proposed transit center off the airport.

I bet the airport grows enough within 3 years after the expansion the difference isn't noticeable. While I approve of the expansion, more is needed for the time frame we're discussing.

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twincessna340a
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 12):

Meanwhile DXB has the worlds largest baggage hall a train to whisk you away and an entire terminal catering for the A380. LAX is falling behined massively here.

Yes LAX is falling behind....it is arguably the US equivalent of LHR. Comparing it to DXB, really? Not only is Dubai a massive desert, they have infinite money and people get relocated at the will of the government.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 3:02 pm

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 18):
Comparing it to DXB, really?

How about SIN, HKG, PEK, PVG, or ICN? I wouldn't compare LAX to LHR. My experiences at LHR have been superior to LAX.

I swear, my beloved Los Angeles is becoming the next Detroit, unable to build and only explain why things cannot be done.

LAX is past due for expansion. I'm glad *something* is being done.


Now to see a new or massively expanded SAN...

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cosyr
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 3:03 pm

The article I just read on USAtoday, it said that terminals 1, 2, and 3 are being demolished as part of the project. I thought the just announced an expansion of terminal 1. Are they changing those plans now?
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 3:27 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
I wouldn't compare LAX to LHR. My experiences at LHR

We're not talking about personal experiences. Comparing LAX to LHR is fairly valid as both airports suffer from political barriers to expansion.
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rangercarp
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
I swear, my beloved Los Angeles is becoming the next Detroit, unable to build and only explain why things cannot be done.

I assume you are making a comparison of the two cities in general, but considering we are talking about airport upgrades, comparing to Detroit is not a good idea. Unlike LAX, both terminals at DTW are late model and top-notch.
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LAXintl
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 20):
The article I just read on USAtoday, it said that terminals 1, 2, and 3 are being demolished as part of the project. I thought the just announced an expansion of terminal 1. Are they changing those plans now?

USA Today got the story mixed up.

What was approved was the following below.






For Terminals - what was blessed was
1) TBIT northside concourse build out (current planned dog leg eliminated)
2) Northside portion of Midfield Satellite Concourse
3) T-3 is reconfigured
4) Option to build a T-0 connected to T-1

=
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ikramerica
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 3):
The moving of the runway is a massive waste of money. LAX has a good safety record and doesn't suffer from delays. There is no need to spend this ridiculous amount of money on something so unnecessary.

As I've stated before, I agree completely.

Many major airports in the world make do with 2 parallel runways. LAX has the luxury of 4. Having all 4 spaced to A380 standards is a huge waste of money. No matter how popular LAX becomes, more than 70% of all departures and arrivals will be narrowbodies. And just as now, the only major danger those narrowbodies pose to the runways comes from pilots not listening to or understanding the instructions of the controllers. That won't change.

If it were just a matter of expanding into unoccupied land, that would be one thing. But the taxiway will require the moving/sinking of major roadways, the destruction of part of a neighborhood, and will take years to achieve, with a major disruption to the landside of LAX operations for years as well. This boondoggle also involves demolition of airport parking and off-site parking, the removal of a popular city park, encroach on 2 high schools and a golf course, and will absolutely cost 2 to 3 times what they claim once it's all said and done. Remember, the roadway portion will be paid for with state and federal funds, not just LAX funds, and the MO for these kinds of projects is to run out of money and go begging for more.

If LAX is worried about A380s and 748s (all 20 of them) and 77Xs transiting the midfield and not having enough room to maneuver to reach gates at T2, the simplest answer is to designate T1-T3 as 200 foot wingspan or less. It's cheaper to pay carriers like AF to move out of T2 into the modern TBIT than it is to move the runways. T-2 could become a nice home for AS and LATAM carriers who fly international on NBs. Not sure where this leaves HA if the A350-800 ever delivers, but that would only matter if they choose to fly it to LAX over the A330, and I'm not sure why they would...
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ldvaviation
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 4:17 pm

Quoting boilerla (Reply 11):
Although it's a stab in the dark, based on my experience I'd wager many of the transfers that do occur are: United (T7) to the Star Alliance partners in T2, and United to the Bradley. It's not that often, but it's a big pain.

Your wager might be wrong. When we last discussed the topic, particularly with respect to the T4 connector, we learned that most of the passengers transiting between international flights and domestic flights go to/from TBIT to T4.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 11):
But really, compared to the bradley terminal which is quite nice inside, everything else is a dump compared to SFO, ORD....well most airports really.

Everything else is not a dump. T4 is quite nice, with its two-story, vaulted ceiling lobby. The gate areas need a little sprucing up, but it has good bones. T3 is also a good space with its contemporary glass atrium, which from the second floor has an impressive view of the theme building. It's entrance lobby was recently renovated and the gate areas will probably be addressed after it is clear what the final shape and form of the terminal will be as a result of the north side runway realignment. T6 was recently renovated, nothing architecturally significant, but it is a stylish remodel. The improvement program at T5 is ongoing. It is also getting a contemporary update, similar to T6. The $400 million improvement program at T1 is in the planning stages. It already has the approval of the board. United is in negotiations with LAWA to carry out improvements at T7 and T8, similar to those at T5 and T6. When it is all said and done Terminals 1,7,8, and 5 will be as contemporary as T2 in SFO, minus the public art.

That just leaves T3, whose gates areas will be completely rebuilt after the runway alignment project.

Construction on the Midfield Concourse (north side) could begin in the 4th quarter of 2014.

The goal of the current board and director is to make LAX world class. There will be a people mover circling the CTA. There will more than enough A380-capable gates with bi-level boarding/deboarding. There will be links to mass transit. There will be a consolidated rental car facility accessible via people mover. The board is even trying to make the ring road more appealing by adding an LED light band and new light poles that reinforce the architectural language of the CTA as a whole.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 10):
The question then becomes will the tunnel station be on the north or south of TBIT. Hopefully, AA will really lobby hard to build it on their side.

The bridge was suppposed to go on AA's side. If it is a tunnel, I suspect the location of underground utility lines will determine its placement.
 
cschleic
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 10):
Quoting oc2dc (Reply 3):
The moving of the runway is a massive waste of money. LAX has a good safety record and doesn't suffer from delays. There is no need to spend this ridiculous amount of money on something so unnecessary.

Its always a waste until that one tragic incursion happens, and then every blowhard politician who objects to the runway expansion then will be calling for increased safety at LAX. I'd rather spend a couple billion on runway safety improvements than see (or be one of) charred bodies strewn across LAX's runway.

Exactly, this isn't one of those things where everyone waits for a car crash before installing a traffic light.

Now, my real beef with it is it'll mean losing the In 'N Out and the viewing park there. THAT's a real problem!   
 
oc2dc
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 10):
You are totally misunderstanding the purpose of the people mover. Its purpose isn't to facilitate inter-terminal transfers, but to transport pax to/from rental, and parking/hotel transfers.

Well that is slightly disappointing. But after looking at the plans, I can see that the people mover may not just be for transporting people to the inter-modal station/car rental facility. The way the people mover is set up, passengers can still use it to get around from terminal to terminal, although it will be outside of security. None the less, it's better than waiting on one of the transfer buses.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 11):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Fast forward, the airport today still works that way. Being the worlds biggest O&D airport, only a small percentage of passengers transfer, and most do so on the same carrier under the same roof, so the primary focus is still to get people from their cars to flights and back as easily as possible.

AA has stated many times that their oneworld partners bring in a lot of transfer passengers. Although, there is less of a need for AA to have people movers b/c all of their partners are at TBIT and they already have the connector planned. But what about transfers from AA to AS. Clearly a people mover would be more efficient than a crummy old bus that stops every minute b/c of aircraft traffic. And it mustn't be easy for UA passengers to transfer to STAR partners. That's for sure.
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flyinggoat
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 6:10 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):

Nice to see the In-N-Out location will not be effected! The aircraft should fly right over In-N-Out.   
 
HNL
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting cschleic (Reply 26):
Now, my real beef with it is it'll mean losing the In 'N Out and the viewing park there. THAT's a real problem!   
Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 28):
Nice to see the In-N-Out location will not be effected! The aircraft should fly right over In-N-Out.   

So which is it? Is the In-N-Out safe or at risk?
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LAXintl
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 27):
AA has stated many times that their oneworld partners bring in a lot of transfer passengers.

Sure there are some transfers at LAX, but something like 90% of enplanement are O&D. And of that remaining 10%, the bulk is clearly ones under the same roof connections at major operators like AA and UA.

The airports primary focus will always be on local demand. Transfers are secondary by the nature of the market.

Frankly, the airport authority would probably be happy to shed any transfer flow to other airports, as it helps keep LAX traffic down and under its court stipulated counts.

And for those that have to transfer at LAX, there are a few additional things here in the masterplan that might help them. Ultimately, I think LAX transfers will be like JFK. If you don't want to walk in the sun, or take the bus, you can use the AirTrain.

Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 28):
Nice to see the In-N-Out location will not be effected! The aircraft should fly right over In-N-Out.

Actually the FAA has yet to sign off on the plan, and will come up with its own runway clear areas.
Its highly likely the restaurant will not survive imo.

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 27):
But what about transfers from AA to AS. Clearly a people mover would be more efficient than a crummy old bus that stops every minute b/c of aircraft traffic.

You likely can probably walk quicker imo.
Trains like buses would run with intervals of several minutes, so by the time you walk outside to the station and wait, you can be at AS T-6 already.
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flyinggoat
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 8:46 pm

Perhaps my enthusiasm was a bit premature, but it's nice to see at least one map that suggests the In-N-Out will remain.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on In-N-Out remaining. There doesn't seem much point in removing the restaurant unless the parking garage next to it is removed as well. All that may very well happen, but I just don't see it. But what do I know, I'm not a planner...

I'd love to see them demolish all of the terminals and start over, but that isn't happening.   
 
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 9:12 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):
Quoting oc2dc (Reply 27):
AA has stated many times that their oneworld partners bring in a lot of transfer passengers.

Sure there are some transfers at LAX, but something like 90% of enplanement are O&D. And of that remaining 10%, the bulk is clearly ones under the same roof connections at major operators like AA and UA.

There must be many connections between international and domestic carriers at LAX. That's never been convenient, even between members of the same alliance in most cases. Many other airports are much better. The "separate terminal" concept should have been scrapped long ago and replaced with something more like AMS where everything is in one terminal and you can walk between all gates, regardless of carrier, and it's impossible to get lost.

One reason why LAX has fewer connections may simply be that passengers know it's not designed to facilitate connections and they thus prefer to connect elsewhere.
 
LAXintl
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 9:40 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
There must be many connections between international and domestic carriers at LAX.

Sure out of 64 odd million annual passengers a million or two might be transferring on international connections, but again the airports focus from day one has been on O&D flow - the overwhelming portion of that 64 million.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
The "separate terminal" concept should have been scrapped long ago and replaced with something more like AMS where everything is in one terminal and you can walk between all gates, regardless of carrier, and it's impossible to get lost.

Really goes back to the concept of airline desires to have their exclusive facilities and desire set up and furnish them as spartan or exclusively as they desire. There is lots of benefits to individual airlines with such ownership structure.

Common use facilities not only can be burdensome form cost perspective, but airlines lose their individuality and being able to differentiate the facility mood along with essentially helping finance their competitors facilities as well.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
One reason why LAX has fewer connections may simply be that passengers know it's not designed to facilitate connections and they thus prefer to connect elsewhere.

When originally designed the airlines did not want to make LAX a transit way point and instead from the ground up looked to design a facility focused to get people from the curb to their planes with the greatest ease possible.
That's why for example the airport has a horse shoe terminal design, and the walk from the curb to your gate is often merely a few hundred feet even today.

Ultimately for a variety of reasons the airport nor airlines want needless extra transfer passenger counts at LAX as they creates constraints, but also needlessly help push the airport closer to its court mandated passenger caps. People might not realize the airport is actually bound by court agreement to encourage services to other airports, and not provide incentives for carriers to grow or add new flight at LAX.

For those that need a west coast transfer airport, please go to SFO. With a smaller home market, they are likely happy to get a boost from transfer flow passengers counts. (just hopefully the ATC/weather delays don't leave them stuck).
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
JHwk
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 10:35 pm

Quoting boilerla (Reply 11):
Although it's a stab in the dark, based on my experience I'd wager many of the transfers that do occur are: United (T7) to the Star Alliance partners in T2, and United to the Bradley. It's not that often, but it's a big pain.

I think the hardest is from gate 60-63 on United to the upper 80's on United Express. It is quite a haul. The plan doesn't seem to address that.

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 3):
The moving of the runway is a massive waste of money. LAX has a good safety record and doesn't suffer from delays. There is no need to spend this ridiculous amount of money on something so unnecessary.

The safety record actually speaks to the need for it. I would rather see it pushed out another 5-10 years though and limit 380 use on the north complex period, until there are enough at the airport to warrant supporting them everywhere.

LAX has a lot of improvements to do. I hope the lawsuits don't slow down the people mover, integrated rental car center, and connections to the Crenshaw Metro line. I hope the people mover is fast enough that taking a taxi from the transit center makes more sense than having them queue at the arrivals level. Not sure if people are patient enough for it, but maybe eliminating the airport surcharge from that point would give people an incentive. Automobile traffic to TBIT is a mess and there are few ways of fixing it unless they want to dig a tunnel to Pershing and make circulation more like PHX or DFW.
 
airplaneboy
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 10:39 pm

Does building a terminal 0 seem like a realistic possibility? Would it be connected to Terminal 1 inside the secure area?
 
aklrno
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 10:51 pm

Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 31):

Perhaps my enthusiasm was a bit premature, but it's nice to see at least one map that suggests the In-N-Out will remain.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on In-N-Out remaining. There doesn't seem much point in removing the restaurant unless the parking garage next to it is removed as well. All that may very well happen, but I just don't see it. But what do I know, I'm not a planner...

The published maps show the land needed for construction purposes that needs to be bought. Somewhere in the planning documents it says that the FAA will advise as to what their requirements will be for runway safety. Then, in order to get FAA approval, the airport will have to acquire the land needed. Since the runway safety area for 24R appear to cover the In-n-Out, the Parking Spot, and a medical building next to it, I suspect they will all go. Since nothing can be built there, there may still be a park, just no burgers.

They also need space for navigation facilities, antennas and lights.
 
802flyguy
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 11:36 pm

As long as the In-N-Out stays I'm okay!  

That said, I do have some concerns, most of which were very well covered in replies 24, 30 and,33.

The congestion on the horseshoe roadway is indeed very annoying. So much so that when I arrive at T-1, I walk over to T-7 to catch my car rental shuttle. But I wonder how much the central rental facility will cost and how much will be passed on to renters. I would rather sit on the bus for a few more minutes than be socked with a USD 10 ( or more) rental surcharge.

Still no plan to bring the the Metro line actually into the airport? I do agree with the idea that the reason it didn't happen in the first place (as it should have) was lobbying from Super Shuttle and the cab companies, but the thing to do now is what DCA (and several European airports) do and bring the rails to the terminal. People simply do not like switching to a shuttle bus.

I know this is Fantasy Land stuff, but the BNSF heavy rail tracks run very close to LAX. What about a connection the to (a future) Metro Rail line and maybe someday Amtrak? I know, that will never happen, Just like connecting CalTrain to SFO. Their line runs right by that airport The silly CalTrain/BART/People Mover (or whatever SFO calls is it) connection does not do the trick, but I digress.

As many readers know, at many European airports, a train station (local or inter city) is just an escalator or elevator ride away from baggage claim. Why can the US not do this?
 
LAXintl
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Wed May 01, 2013 11:55 pm

Quoting airplaneboy (Reply 35):
Does building a terminal 0 seem like a realistic possibility? Would it be connected to Terminal 1 inside the secure area?

Well this approval give the airport the option to pursue it. Might be beneficial for domestic operators - ala SWA, and others depending on what size of eventual T-3 reconfiguration becomes.

Regarding connector to T-1, no clue but from the drawing I saw it looked like the connection to T-1 was adjacent to the ticket counter lobby, so could be before security.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 37):
But I wonder how much the central rental facility will cost and how much will be passed on to renters. I would rather sit on the bus for a few more minutes than be socked with a USD 10 ( or more) rental surcharge.

Last year the budget was ~$400mil'ish -- and yes you as a renter will certainly be funding it.
Look at SFO when they opened their consolidated facility they slapped on a flat $17.50 facility charge PLUS 11% concession recovery fee.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 37):
Still no plan to bring the the Metro line actually into the airport?

No. Plans call for the future Crenshaw line (scheduled to open in late 2018) to run via a intermodal transit center off the airport, with a separate JFK like AirTran people mover running to/from the airport.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
JHwk
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Thu May 02, 2013 12:03 am

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 37):
I know this is Fantasy Land stuff, but the BNSF heavy rail tracks run very close to LAX. What about a connection the to (a future) Metro Rail line and maybe someday Amtrak? I know, that will never happen, Just like connecting CalTrain to SFO. Their line runs right by that airport The silly CalTrain/BART/People Mover (or whatever SFO calls is it) connection does not do the trick, but I digress.

As nice as SFO's international terminal connection to BART is, it was a whole lot of money spent poorly. A better land-side people mover (read faster) that connected to BART would have been more capital and operationally efficient, and could have encouraged further extension south of BART.

SFO's AirTrain takes nearly 15 minutes from the rental car shuttle to Terminal 3... I will never forgive it for making me miss a check-in deadline when it first opened. (The old shuttle buses took 5 minutes.)

LAX has a whole lot more stops that will be required, so to make up for it they really need some speed between stations.
 
802flyguy
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Thu May 02, 2013 12:16 am

Quoting JHwk (Reply 39):
SFO's AirTrain takes nearly 15 minutes from the rental car shuttle to Terminal 3... I will never forgive it for making me miss a check-in deadline when it first opened. (The old shuttle buses took 5 minutes.)

Not only that but there are three changes of level from BART to the ticket counter (or bag claim).

Not to mention that BART actually takes longer and is more expensive than the SamTrans 7F express bus that went from SFO to downtown SF.

This might be a good time to mention that in SkyTrax (FWTIW) ranking of the world's best 25 airports NOT ONE is in the US.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...hat-study-obama-is-so-upset-about/
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Thu May 02, 2013 12:19 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):

As part of the approved plan the 06L/24R runway would be shifted 260-feet to the north and a centerway taxiway running between the runways will be constructed similar to the southside configuration.

Excellent news... Now comes the legal fight which LAX has every right to win.

Only downside is... Where does In N Out go?
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
ontime
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Thu May 02, 2013 1:09 am

Quoting JHwk (Reply 39):
LAX has a whole lot more stops that will be required, so to make up for it they really need some speed between stations.

While this might be a minor point in the context of such a large airport improvement project, I am very disappointed to see that the Automated People Mover does not make a full loop around the airport terminal area, but instead only travels in a horseshoe and comes to a complete end at Terminal 7.

Now I am biased because I fly almost exclusively on United (T7) out of LAX, but this horseshoe setup means the passengers at T7 have a long (meaning slow) ride with many stops both arrving and departing from the airport. I prefer the setup like the Airtrain at both JFK and SFO, where in one direction you're the first stop, but going the opposite direction you're the last -- it evens out the pain of making extra stops among the different terminals. Meaning at LAX Terminal 1 could be the first stop coming from the Rental Car Center, and then leaving Terminal 7 you'd head right out of the central terminal area back to the Rental Car Center. THe current plan is a real dud for those of us using Terminal 7.

(And if need be, you can have an "inner loop" for passengers connecting between terminals, though like others, I am dubious that LAX has enough inter-terminal connections to warrant that. Certainly, without the inner loop, you'd only have to build about half the amount of track in the central terminal area vs. the current plan, and the stations in each terminal would be smaller and cheaper, since they'd be one track only.)
 
StuckInCA
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Thu May 02, 2013 1:40 am

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 3):
Also, I feel like the way LAX is now, its like 8 different airports on one lot.

Exactly. Eight terrible airports on one lot.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Its like that by design.

By bad design.

I'm not sure what good solution exists for LAX. I'm guessing it'll get incremental improvements through time and remain terrible relative to its peers. For international travel to/from the LA area there isn't really a better option. Anyone traveling domestically through LAX that doesn't live immediately adjacent to it is a mystery to me.
 
JHwk
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Thu May 02, 2013 1:44 am

Quoting Reply 42):
...disappointed to see that the Automated People Mover does not make a full loop around the airport terminal area, but instead only travels in a horseshoe and comes to a complete end at Terminal 7.

Doh... I missed that part!

Wow, talk about turning a great opportunity into an awful solution! Assuming an optimistic expansion of Metro, it would take a good 45 minutes to my office, vs 10 minutes in a cab from T7.

I really wish they would just provide an integrated terminal with feeders out to the various concourses. The Theme Building, tower, and central plant get in the way of it being centralized, but they could still do a combined terminal for 1, 2, 6, 7, and 8, and expand TBIT out to pick up 3 and 5.

Sure... you lose all the parking... but you could open up World Way significantly and improve the landside airport flow exponentially.
 
aerowrench
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Thu May 02, 2013 2:09 am

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 3):
The moving of the runway is a massive waste of money. LAX has a good safety record and doesn't suffer from delays. There is no need to spend this ridiculous amount of money on something so unnecessary

It would probably be best to do some research before blabbing about a safety record. Up until the South Complex runway project, LAX was top dog for runway incursions. Since then, the HS (hot spots) are concentrated on the North Complex. The waste of money will be in defending the project against a multitude of frivolous lawsuits.
 
Boeing717200
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Thu May 02, 2013 2:52 am

Quoting HNL (Reply 29):

Rough math says it and the parking structure will be inside the RPZ... Not a good sign for burger fans...
 
N62NA
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Thu May 02, 2013 3:03 am

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 37):
Still no plan to bring the the Metro line actually into the airport? I do agree with the idea that the reason it didn't happen in the first place (as it should have) was lobbying from Super Shuttle and the cab companies, but the thing to do now is what DCA (and several European airports) do and bring the rails to the terminal. People simply do not like switching to a shuttle bus.

Perhaps in another decade they could detour the Crenshaw line so that it just doesn't go past the airport, but actually loops into the airport. But the way it looks on the map doesn't seem too bad. You get off at the airport stop and hop some kind of people mover thingy. That's how the new MIA airport connection to the light rail that goes to downtown Miami from MIA is setup.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 37):
As many readers know, at many European airports, a train station (local or inter city) is just an escalator or elevator ride away from baggage claim.

In particular, AMS. Very very convenient!
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Thu May 02, 2013 3:11 am

Quoting JHwk (Reply 44):
I really wish they would just provide an integrated terminal with feeders out to the various concourses. The Theme Building, tower, and central plant get in the way of it being centralized, but they could still do a combined terminal for 1, 2, 6, 7, and 8, and expand TBIT out to pick up 3 and 5.

I wish they could ATL-ize it, have a big terminal on the east end, and then have a tunnel out to concourses. The airport is a mess to drive around and I wouldn't dare try walking around the place.

in regards to the actual terminals, 4, 5 and 6 are nice and i love flying out of them- I haven't flown out of the north side in years and they were dismal then - nothing to do airside.
Boiler Up!
 
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lightsaber
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RE: LA Approves $5Bil LAX Airport Modernization

Thu May 02, 2013 4:02 am

Quoting rangercarp (Reply 22):
Unlike LAX, both terminals at DTW are late model and top-notch.

Touche'.  
Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 28):
Nice to see the In-N-Out location will not be effected! The aircraft should fly right over In-N-Out.  

Oh.... That would be a bonus.   

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 37):
I know this is Fantasy Land stuff, but the BNSF heavy rail tracks run very close to LAX. What about a connection the to (a future) Metro Rail line and maybe someday Amtrak? I know, that will never happen, Just like connecting CalTrain to SFO. Their line runs right by that airport The silly CalTrain/BART/People Mover (or whatever SFO calls is it) connection does not do the trick, but I digress.

As many readers know, at many European airports, a train station (local or inter city) is just an escalator or elevator ride away from baggage claim. Why can the US not do this?

Add to that fantasy having the green line and bring down the Expo line... and I'm there. How can the airport *not* be connected to rail?

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