tioloko100
Topic Author
Posts: 142
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:31 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 3:32 am

In very industry reputation comes first and as the saying goes "aint Boeing; aint Going". Boeing has been able to overcome its turbulent time and apologise for the inconveniences caused by the battery issues of the Dreamliner.
Once again Boeing makes it up to its customers.

http://flyingactive.com/content/131-...pologies-over-dreamliner-woes.html
 
BestWestern
Posts: 6998
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 3:55 am

Quoting tioloko100 (Thread starter):
Once again Boeing makes it up to its customers.

In the litigious world we now live in, if only life were that easy. This error will cost Boeing dearly as it has cost the airlines dearly.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
falkerker
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:53 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 4:00 am

They won't get off the hook with a "we're sorry" and newspaper ad gimmick. The airlines paid for frames they could not use for over three months, that is a LOT of liability. Even if insurance companies pay the airlines, I don't know how much this issue will impact sales, only time will tell. What I am almost sure is it will take a lot more from boeing than a hollow excuse.
 
tioloko100
Topic Author
Posts: 142
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:31 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 4:04 am

Its is expected as often new products come with glitches and as time goes by it will be over and by using the reliability bathtub curve one can easily understand issues like this.

http://www.weibull.com/hotwire/issue22/hottopics22.htm
 
tioloko100
Topic Author
Posts: 142
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:31 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 4:06 am

Quoting falkerker (Reply 2):
They won't get off the hook with a "we're sorry" and newspaper ad gimmick.

No one is perfect, Boeing remains the strong brand in the industry and if we cant show understanding to the situation then who can we spare?
 
PM
Posts: 4818
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 4:23 am

Quoting tioloko100 (Thread starter):
Once again Boeing makes it up to its customers.

That seems an odd thing to say. You mean, Boeing has to do this kind of thing on a regular basis?

But I think some of you are missing the point.

These ads aren't an apology to "the industry"or to all Boeing's customers. They are very specifically aimed at reassuring customers in one particular market. I lived in Japan during the introduction of the 787 (and flew on it whenever I could). You couldn't move at airports and elsewhere for posters, banners and models of 787s.

"First to Fly!"

Both airlines (but especially ANA) made a huge song and dance about it. ANA of course had '787' painted in enormous letters on the sides of their planes.

So what must have been a frustration for Ethiopian, Qatar and others with a couple of planes in service was a disaster for the two Japanese carriers. There was ample evidence from the arrival of the first planes that customers were actively seeking them out. (I was.) Now how many Japanese will think about it and say, "787? Er, maybe not this time..."

My guess is that ANA and JAL demanded something like this from Boeing.

And, of course, there is a deep tradition of apologising in Japan. And doing so very publicly. And Boeing do owe ANA and JAL apologies. Yes, they owe United,Air India, LOT and others apologies too but they'll no doubt do that in other, culturally appropriate ways.

These ads must be seen in a very specific cultural context.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 6998
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 4:36 am

And the vote for fanboi of the day goes to....

Quoting tioloko100 (Reply 4):
if we cant show understanding to the situation then who can we spare?

Oh, I can show understanding, but I didn't invest billions to buy these aircraft. Then again, if I bought a car that broke down on the first day of use I couldn't use for four months, and had to rent a car at the last moment from Avis I would be seriously pissed and an advert wouldn't stop me making a claim.




The 787 is a great aircraft, built by a great company that lost its way on a very complicated project by trying too many new processes and procurement practices.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
RyanairGuru
Posts: 6554
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 5:16 am

Quoting tioloko100 (Reply 3):
Its is expected as often new products come with glitches

Well... personally I'd say that it is "expected" that "new products" are fit for purpose, which the 787 battery wasn't.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 6):
I can show understanding, but I didn't invest billions to buy these aircraft

  
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
AR385
Posts: 6734
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 5:28 am

Quoting tioloko100 (Thread starter):
Boeing has been able to overcome its turbulent time and apologise for the inconveniences caused by the battery issues of the Dreamliner.
Once again Boeing makes it up to its customers.
Quoting tioloko100 (Reply 3):
Its is expected as often new products come with glitches and as time goes by it will be over and by using the reliability bathtub curve one can easily understand issues like this.
Quoting tioloko100 (Reply 4):
No one is perfect, Boeing remains the strong brand in the industry

Hmmm. Strange thread and phrases. Reads like a cheap public relations stunt by someone planted. Trolling?
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3938
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 5:57 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
Hmmm. Strange thread and phrases. Reads like a cheap public relations stunt by someone planted. Trolling?

I don't see why. Of all the problems with the 787, this is one that airlines have been least critical of...at least publicly. Everybody knows that batteries are outsourced and the companies involved with the batteries were well experienced and reputable.

Boeing chose the chemistry based on consultation with these companies and tested the batteries extensively before they got certified. As it turns out, there were failure modes not thought of or tested for and the batteries failed in some such ways.

As it is, Boeing has a fix certified in a relatively short period of time, has received no public complaints from customers or certifying agencies about the solution and is no doubt working with the airlines on compensation.

Airliners have recovered from much more severe problems than this battery issue; there were no fatalities or even serious injuries, no airframes were lost, the solution seems to satisfy all who need satisfying and the grounding was relatively short lived.

So while those comments might be perceived as 'cheap public relations', they are also fairly realistic.
What the...?
 
twiga
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:24 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 6:06 am

Here is a quote from the AD posted in reply #3

"If any trouble such as heating emerges, new casing and exhaust systems will prevent any impact on the safety of flights and passengers and allow the plane to complete a safe flight to its destination," it said.

Note they don't plan to "divert" for another battery incident - it says "safe flight to its destination".

So in the future if there is a battery incident the pax and press won't know - it will just be business as usual and a maintenance issue.
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 6:24 am

An apology is only useful if you are sincere about it. Anyway we westerners have forgotten about apology when we mess up, not at least banks and all rats in finance..
 
BestWestern
Posts: 6998
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 6:27 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
this is one that airlines have been least critical of...at least publicly.

Because if the airlines jumped up and down about the aircraft, future passenger confidence would be further dented. A delay is different, as safety is not questioned.

I can only imagine the anger behind closed doors.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
Everybody knows that batteries are outsourced

If an outsourced check-in agent for Delta is makes me miss my flight due to incompetence, who do I complain to?

Quoting PM (Reply 5):
Now how many Japanese will think about it and say, "787? Er, maybe not this time..."

Even if only 1 in one hundred switches to a competitor for six months, the impact is large. Hence the airlines being quiet in their anger - not wanting to flame consumer anger. Even the Indians, who have demanded delays because of everything have said very little. They cannot kill their golden goose.

Quoting falkerker (Reply 2):
Even if insurance companies pay the airlines

All that does is increase next years insurance bill.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3938
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 6:39 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):

Because if the airlines jumped up and down about the aircraft, future passenger confidence would be further dented. A delay is different, as safety is not questioned.

I can only imagine the anger behind closed doors.

Airlines haven't been particularly shy about criticizing Boeing or the 787 loudly and in public before...I don't see why this issue would be the straw that makes them nervous about scaring off the public.

Airlines have ordered something else without worrying about public perception, if they are unsatisfied with a product. AA orders from Airbus and Boeing and not a single passenger will care that they are no longer an all Boeing airline. If ANA decided to order 350's instead of 787's, not a passenger will care...or even notice.


Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
If an outsourced check-in agent for Delta is makes me miss my flight due to incompetence, who do I complain to?

Nobody said Boeing shouldn't take care of it, (which they did)...but nobody is naive to think that Boeing actually manufactured the batteries either.
What the...?
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 7:11 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
Even if only 1 in one hundred switches to a competitor for six months, the impact is large.

'One' is only one per cent, BestWestern.  

Tell you what - years back, as an 'enthusiast,' I often used to ask friends and acquaintances who'd recently been on a trip what aeroplane they'd flown on. As far as I recall, very few of them knew. They tended to have favoured airlines, not favoured aeroplanes. The only slight exception in those days was the 747, which of course was revolutionary in its time, as a huge 'double-decker.' Probably the A380 still gets some sort of reaction nowadays.

Most people still probably book their flights on 'time rather than type' - ones where the departure and arrival times suit their needs best. And, of course, the price of the ticket...........

So, hopefully, there won't be any huge boycotts of 787s.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
User avatar
RobK
Posts: 3210
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:43 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 7:19 am

I note that Boeing says : ""If any trouble such as heating emerges, new casing and exhaust systems will prevent any impact on the safety of flights and passengers and allow the plane to complete a safe flight to its destination," it said." But wait.. *IF* Boeing has fixed the issues then surely they'd be confident to state this and that no such issues will occur again in the future, right? As a potential passenger I don't want to hear about what will happen when your plane catches fire again, I want to hear you tell me that you've fixed the issues and there's no way they'll happen again... which you are not doing.

(awaits comments from the usual suspects about using buses and trains)
 
707lvr
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:41 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 7:26 am

This is something you have to do. Corporations aren't people, but they have to act like them sometimes. Yeah, it will be shockingly expensive, but there is a ****load of cash flow waiting outdoors at Paine Field right now.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 6998
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 8:20 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
Airlines haven't been particularly shy about criticizing Boeing or the 787 loudly and in public before...I don't see why this issue would be the straw that makes them nervous about scaring off the public.

Because this issue was caused by a safety scare. If our friend in Doha jumps up and down too much, he will frighten people off his aircraft.

Prior to this is was due to delays, not safety.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
'One' is only one per cent, BestWestern.

wow, really? And the profit margin of an airline is how much - three to five?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
So, hopefully, there won't be any huge boycotts of 787s.

I don't see any boycotts occurring.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
MHG
Posts: 723
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:33 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 8:26 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 11):
An apology is only useful if you are sincere about it. Anyway we westerners have forgotten about apology when we mess up, not at least banks and all rats in finance..

This apology is dedicated especially to the japanese public.

In Japan it is expected and common practice that companies/individuals who "fail" apologize for their shortcomings.
This does not have an effect on solving the financial issue but is simply "proper behaviour" towards the public - and is generally accepted.
This apology gives Boeing the possibility to restore its credibility in the general public (including airline executives !)

Boeing is still subject to liability as before but the negotiations will be possible in a much better talk environment.
I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
 
raffik
Posts: 1530
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:50 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 8:33 am

Boeing should apologise- it has caused a massive inconvenience to its customers and affected passengers the world over. It's not good business practise not to. I understand that the airliners were grounded as it was in the best interests of safety but why weren't any of these faults picked up before the aircraft went into mainline service?

Anyway, I suspect it won't affect business too much for them as otherwise it is a very good aircraft but apologising is really the least they could do.
- Alec
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 9728
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 8:42 am

Quoting MHG (Reply 18):
This apology is dedicated especially to the japanese public.

In Japan it is expected and common practice that companies/individuals who "fail" apologize for their shortcomings.

I would agree, this in normal Japanese culture, the reason it seems strange to many is they are not aware of this culture.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
ASA
Posts: 1001
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:12 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 8:57 am

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 16):
Corporations aren't people, but they have to act like them sometimes.

Corporations are people, my friend!!!

even if the 47% doesn't believe so 



sorry ... couldn't help it! :P
mods, please delete.

[Edited 2013-05-01 01:58:27]
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3938
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 9:22 am

Quoting RobK (Reply 15):
I want to hear you tell me that you've fixed the issues and there's no way they'll happen again... which you are not doing.

Nothing in the world is 100% safe so you might be waiting a while for that.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17):
Because this issue was caused by a safety scare. If our friend in Doha jumps up and down too much, he will frighten people off his aircraft.

Prior to this is was due to delays, not safety.

Actually, the delays were as safety oriented as reliability or supply oriented. Bad fasteners, improperly coated fasteners in the fuel tanks, brake software, side of body wing join, the 'is CFRP safe to use on an airliner' talk...all are quite related to safety, and there was no shortage of public dressing down for Boeing then.

It's not exactly a secret that the planes were grounded or why. Since every news organization on the planet headlined the battery fires at some point, most people are probably aware of the issue...regardless if any airline exec mentioned it or not.
What the...?
 
BestWestern
Posts: 6998
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 9:35 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Actually, the delays were as safety oriented as reliability or supply oriented. Bad fasteners, improperly coated fasteners in the fuel tanks, brake software, side of body wing join, the 'is CFRP safe to use on an airliner' talk...all are quite related to safety, and there was no shortage of public dressing down for Boeing then.

Come off it -

The airlines can jump up and down and demand compensation because of delays...... Just like AI did - not one mention of safety concerns....

When an aircraft fleet is grounded because of a, let's call it a snafu, airlines are more cautious, because now they cant jump up and down and say 'you delivered me a dangerous aircraft' as that is manna to the media. So the airlines are now cautious, and demands are done behind closed doors.

You have already seen airlines state they will be demanding compensation, but nothing like the usual wrath of our friends in Doha, or the scheming antics of our friends in Mumbai - all too afraid to mention the safety card.

I have full confidence in Boeing producing a safe aircraft. The 787 will be a profitable aircraft for most airlines that buy it. However the groundings will cost Boeing a lot more than a few newspaper adverts.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3938
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 9:50 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 23):
You have already seen airlines state they will be demanding compensation, but nothing like the usual wrath of our friends in Doha, or the scheming antics of our friends in Mumbai - all too afraid to mention the safety card.

Until Al Baker or anyone else comes out and admits why they do or don't say anything, any perspective any one of us has is conjecture and guesswork...including mine.

Ultimately, it really doesn't matter in the long run.
What the...?
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 1:30 pm

Quoting MHG (Reply 18):

Boeing took out a huge page ad in the papers today to formally apologize. Also I remember my friend saying at an investors or board meeting (he said he didn't figure out which) the Boeing exec personally apologized in a typical Japanese way, which included bowing...apparently.

A few of my Japanese contacts have said they were a little annoyed at Boeing for not apologizing for the issues earlier than they did. If you all noticed, NH and JL immediately broadcasted apologetic press conferences in order to keep their customers-- and Japanese society itself- happy.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3368
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 1:36 pm

The people who matter are not interested in Boeing saying sorry, words are the cheapest form of currency in business. My concern is what you do rather than what you say. The project management of part of the B787 dropped a ball with serious conseqeunces. Bear in mind the DC10 cargo door was designed by Convair, and a whole lot of people died needlessly because McD and Convair did not act properly in a bid to save money.

Nobody outside the industry and on these boards makes the differentiation between who designed the battery and Boeing. Boeing ran the show, that's the bottom line. Anything else is peripheral fluff.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 6998
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 1:42 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 25):
A few of my Japanese contacts have said they were a little annoyed at Boeing for not apologizing for the issues earlier than they did. If you all noticed, NH and JL immediately broadcasted apologetic press conferences in order to keep their customers-- and Japanese society itself- happy.

From a legal perspective, it is a very fine line as to when, or even if, corporations should apologize. The act of apology can demonstrate a legal responsibility for the problem (otherwise why apologize?). Because of this, lawyers will strongly recommend against any sort of admission of guilt.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
wingman
Posts: 2763
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 1:54 pm

I guess the last two posters didn't read MHG's, PHX 787's, or Zeke's posts about apologizing in Japanese culture. Either that or they just don't care about the facts in that particular market/country.

It's a way of life there guys, and just like the operators of Fukushima apologized on their hands and knees to the Japanese public, so too did Boeing to its direct and indirect customers in this market. Words may be cheap in the UK and Ireland but they aren't in Japan.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 3221
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 2:01 pm

Boeing is not the only one to get it wrong first time out.  
wheel
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 2:10 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 28):

It's a way of life there guys, and just like the operators of Fukushima apologized on their hands and knees to the Japanese public, so too did Boeing to its direct and indirect customers in this market. Words may be cheap in the UK and Ireland but they aren't in Japan.

Exactly. All of this.

People may not give a damn in other countries, but in Japan, when someone is heavily inconvenienced (or even slightly) it becomes a huge thing, in a nation which operates on the fact of convenience. When you have 127 million people crammed in together like this, courtesy is huge. I applaud Boeing, therefore, for apologizing. I'm going to try and find a copy of the apology tomorrow if it's still in the paper.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15204
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
The project management of part of the B787 dropped a ball with serious conseqeunces

It's been a textbook case of gross mismanagement that will be discussed in case studies for years to come.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1549
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:43 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 2:29 pm

As costly as the 787 groundings were to the airlines and manufacturer, I wonder if the battery failure/grounding happening in the 1st Qtr was more fortunate for everyone than had the airplanes been grounded during the latter half of the 2nd or beginning of the 3d Qtr, when the airlines make their most money. JAL states its earnings were down 8% in the 1st Qtr - what would that figure have been had the grounding occurred during the summer months?
 
cyeg66
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:33 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 2:32 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 28):
I guess the last two posters didn't read MHG's, PHX 787's, or Zeke's posts about apologizing in Japanese culture. Either that or they just don't care about the facts in that particular market/country.

It's a way of life there guys, and just like the operators of Fukushima apologized on their hands and knees to the Japanese public, so too did Boeing to its direct and indirect customers in this market. Words may be cheap in the UK and Ireland but they aren't in Japan.


Well said. And without any doubt, the Japanese flying public has been the most inconvenienced by the grounding of the planes. Personally, with the ample coverage of the 787 "issues" given by the worldwide press to date, I don't think Boeing needs to make any more public amends. They'll have atoned for their sins over time if the airplane now goes on to fly with little-to-no unexpected maintenance snags, and most importantly, safety issues.
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3368
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 2:47 pm

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 33):
They'll have atoned for their sins over time

Have they a proper project management procedure in place to prevent this sort of disconnet happening on the B777-X project? Do they know what the problem with the battery is yet? Er no.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 2:47 pm

Has anybody noticed that many Japanese likely see the 787 as a Japanese plane? Which is a reasonable view.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
BestWestern
Posts: 6998
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 2:56 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 28):

I guess the last two posters didn't read MHG's, PHX 787's, or Zeke's posts about apologizing in Japanese culture. Either that or they just don't care about the facts in that particular market/country.

I fully understand the power of apology in Japan. Just read other threads where I have commented on this. My original comments were specifically around Boeing doing more than just apologizing for this delay.

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 33):
I don't think Boeing needs to make any more public amends.

There will be compensation paid to the airlines.

Quoting wingman (Reply 28):
just like the operators of Fukushima apologized on their hands and knees to the Japanese public,

You cant compare the level of grovelling required because of nuclear meltdown and the issues surrounding the 787....

Quoting wingman (Reply 28):
Words may be cheap in the UK and Ireland

Perhaps I should change my flag.... I've lived in Asia since 2009.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 3:06 pm

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 35):
Has anybody noticed that many Japanese likely see the 787 as a Japanese plane? Which is a reasonable view.

It's sometimes promoted as such, and many news reports often include at the end how much percentage the 787 has from Japan.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
PanAm1971
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:28 am

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 3:08 pm

Aviation inherently has risk. To move forwards in aviation you must take risk. The airlines know that. The public knows that. The manufacturers certainly know that. The courts will factor in what is reasonable. Reasonable is the key word. There will be settlements. The airlines will not initially get 100 cents on the dollar. Probably not even close to that. However, it is in Boeing's interests to compensate the airlines with discounted aircraft in the future to make up a large part of the value lost. Everyone knows what must happen... the tussle will be over how. I'm just glad no lives were lost... and the issues are being addressed. The 787 is leap forwards for the whole industry.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

Boeing Makes Public Apology for 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 34):
Do they know what the problem with the battery is yet? Er no.

As far as I know, 'Er yes,' skipness1E.   As far as I know so far, it resulted from inadequate insulation between the battery cells; plus microscopic metallic particles linking the cells; plus general over-charging/voltage problems with the batteries themselves; plus over-use of the largely-discharged batteries, without suitable re-charging, during ground operations; plus inadequate ventilation in the battery compartments in the event of over-heating/fire.

Boeing (and their partner companies) have done their best to solve those problems. Remains to be seen whether they got it right.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 2426
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

RE: Boeing Makes Public Apology For 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 4:40 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 34):
Have they a proper project management procedure in place to prevent this sort of disconnet happening on the B777-X project?

I'm going to venture a guess here and say "yes." I have to believe they learned some very hard lessons from the 787 project and will take those lessons to heart to prevent recurrence. Just my   
If you have a different view, please share.
 
Skyguy
Posts: 464
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Boeing Makes Public Apology For 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 38):
Aviation inherently has risk. To move forwards in aviation you must take risk. The airlines know that. The public knows that. The manufacturers certainly know that. The courts will factor in what is reasonable. Reasonable is the key word. There will be settlements. The airlines will not initially get 100 cents on the dollar. Probably not even close to that. However, it is in Boeing's interests to compensate the airlines with discounted aircraft in the future to make up a large part of the value lost. Everyone knows what must happen... the tussle will be over how. I'm just glad no lives were lost... and the issues are being addressed. The 787 is leap forwards for the whole industry.

Hit the nail right on the head!

When Boeing introduced the 747 into service in 1969/70, it was a radical aircraft at it's time for it's sheer size and performance capabilities; a leap forward for the aviation industry at that time. Airlines enthusiastically welcomed the aircraft into service, but at the same time were faced with a number of "teething" issues for the first few years as Boeing engineers weeded out all sorts of technical and performance glitches which at times were serious enough to ground flights etc., much to the inconvenience to airlines and passengers alike. Had today's virulent and quick media been around back then, then the public may have heard about the seriousness of some of the issues that were worked out in the early days, and yes, may have criticized Boeing as a less than worthy (or even incompetent) manufacturer of aircraft.

Fast-forward to today, the FAA has had more experience and is more diligent in setting stringent standards for aircraft; aircraft manufacturers have become better at producing large numbers of aircraft that are safe and reliable; airlines are better informed and equipped to handle technical and maintenance issues. Soon, the 787 problems will be in the past, it will prove itself and airlines and passengers will be pleased with the product. The lesson learned for Boeing is more to do with it's management of a complex production process and outsourcing of various pieces while maintaining standards. It's a tough process and a difficult lesson and am sure this entire episode will become a case study examined in business and management schools.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
SEA
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:21 pm

RE: Boeing Makes Public Apology For 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 6:27 pm

This apology wasn't to satisfy airliners.netters. It's a cultural thing. In Japan it is extremely common for corporations to publicly apologize after some sort of public mishap or embarrassment. That's what Boeing are doing here. I don't think too much can be read into it.
 
User avatar
FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1731
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Boeing Makes Public Apology For 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 6:31 pm

Also intesresting how relatively few airlines are being vocal in publically citicising Boeing, yet the company still made this public apology.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
hivue
Posts: 1617
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: Boeing Makes Public Apology For 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 6:35 pm

Quoting twiga (Reply 10):
So in the future if there is a battery incident the pax and press won't know

The press will find out. Count on it.

Quoting RobK (Reply 15):
*IF* Boeing has fixed the issues then surely they'd be confident to state this and that no such issues will occur again in the future, right?

Boeing wouuld have to be really stupid to claim that no 787 battery overheat will ever occur again.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
AA777
Posts: 2358
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 7:07 am

RE: Boeing Makes Public Apology For 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 7:49 pm

Quoting falkerker (Reply 2):
They won't get off the hook with a "we're sorry" and newspaper ad gimmick. The airlines paid for frames they could not use for over three months, that is a LOT of liability. Even if insurance companies pay the airlines, I don't know how much this issue will impact sales, only time will tell. What I am almost sure is it will take a lot more from boeing than a hollow excuse.

I think this is more of a PR formality. I doubt Boeing has any delusions that this issue has and will cost them...

Assuming there are no more major issues, I dont see why this would become a sales issue.

-AA777
 
PITingres
Posts: 992
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:59 am

RE: Boeing Makes Public Apology For 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 8:01 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 15):
As a potential passenger I don't want to hear about what will happen when your plane catches fire again, I want to hear you tell me that you've fixed the issues and there's no way they'll happen again... which you are not doing.

But immediately above you quote them as doing just exactly that:

Quoting RobK (Reply 15):
If any trouble such as heating emerges, new casing and exhaust systems will prevent any impact on the safety of flights and passengers and allow the plane to complete a safe flight to its destination

Which certainly sounds to me like "no way it will happen again" albeit using different words.

As for:

Quoting RobK (Reply 15):
(awaits comments from the usual suspects about using buses and trains)

I will restrain myself then. It does seem a shame that very poor comparative risk assessment ability appears to be an innate part of being human.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1422
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

RE: Boeing Makes Public Apology For 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 8:14 pm

This is only directed toward Asian Carriers. An apology has far deeper meaning in all of Asia than in the West.

Even though ANA, CSN and JAL were kicked in the gut, the public apology will be seen positively throughout all of Asia.

Especially in Japan.

So, business as usual.   
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1422
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

RE: Boeing Makes Public Apology For 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 8:18 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 44):
Boeing wouuld have to be really stupid to claim that no 787 battery overheat will ever occur again.

How are your Batteries? Seem a little warm, eh?
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
UA735WL
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:08 pm

RE: Boeing Makes Public Apology For 787 Problems

Wed May 01, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 44):

Boeing would also be really stupid if they went around telling their customers that they expect the battery problem to surface again in the future. Boeing is trying to inspire confidence in the 787-so don't expect them to go and undermine their product by saying that their fix might not've worked.


Cheers,  


Jonas

[Edited 2013-05-01 14:44:27]
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" -Tex Johnston

Who is online