tioloko100
Topic Author
Posts: 142
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:31 am

Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 3:58 am

Despite what the no.1 aircraft maker went through recently with the batter issues on 787 Dreamliner. Boeing has announced its plans to build world's longest range passenger aircraft;which will be the revamp of the 777 widebody. Business travellers will soon be able to enjoy lots of non-stops flights around the globe.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...03/us-boeing-idUSBRE94119Z20130503
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 2162
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 4:17 am

Sounds like the 777-8X will really be the 777-9XSP.

The 772LR is touted as having reduced operational cost vs. the 772ER with long stage lengths due to a longer wing.

If the 777-8X is just a shortened 777-9X, I don't see the advantage for anyone except for a very few routes, especially when the 777-9X is to have 300 nm range extension over the 772ER, but carry about 50 more passengers.

[Edited 2013-05-03 21:22:10]
sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 4919
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 4:24 am

I agree that the 777-8X should offered ONLY in an ultra-long haul variant to replace the 772LR, otherwise the 787-10 will cannibalize its sales.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 4:36 am

What ultra-long haul markets are really looking for this? With a range of 9500 nm, this can do the most obvious with LHR/SYD-MEL, and then maybe PEK-ICN-NRT/GRU...... or maybe getting full flight from EWR-SIN? But other than these, I would think that at most 50 of these birds would be built to serve the above routes.

 

[Edited 2013-05-03 21:48:18]
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 4:37 am

I thought the 777-200LR could basically fly to most city pairs? I think we're approaching the end to the range game, eventually we'll reach the point where more range means you take a longer great circle route  
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2806
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 4:41 am

I don't see the point.

Many ULH routes are being found to be an non-viable business cases and the other markets that have not yet been able to be flown so far, like those listed by point2point are untested and may well find the same fate.

Unless the plane is a massive breakthrough that turns these routes into profitable endeavours, don't boher.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 4:49 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 3):
I would think that at most 50 of these birds would be built to serve the above routes.

How many would Boeing need to build to reach the break even point?
Since it's using and existing frame, my guess is that it wouldn't be that much compared to designing an all new aircraft from ground up.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
I think we're approaching the end to the range game, eventually we'll reach the point where more range means you take a longer great circle route  

I think they want to do ULH more profitably than the existing 777-200LR and A340-500.
Personally I think it would be awesome to see a 747-8I that has a range longer than the existing 777-200LR and A340-500.
Bring back the Concorde
 
questions
Posts: 1148
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 4:50 am

And how long do people really want to be on a flight?

I fly LAX-SYD-LAX in F several times a year for the past few years. I'm so ready to get off that plane after 14 hours!
 
crownvic
Posts: 1762
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 5:02 am

Quoting questions (Reply 7):
And how long do people really want to be on a flight?

I fly LAX-SYD-LAX in F several times a year for the past few years. I'm so ready to get off that plane after 14 hours!

I could not agree with you more. While this is just an opinion on my part, I do several transpac and transatl flights every year in a premium cabin, and cannot stand it. My duration is about 10 hours. Beyond this, I have had enough. When these flights push 12 hours, it is just too long, let alone the 15-18 hour sectors. The ULH market has only had marginal success and what we need, is something supersonic. I would much rather sit in a basic 2 x 2 Business Class seat and get to my international destination in 3-4 hour, than be wined and dined in Business Class or in a First Class suite for 12 - 18 hours.

I was fortunate enough to have flown Concorde JFK-LHR. Unless you have done this, one cannot describe the feeling of getting off a plane so far from home, in just a few hours time. It is quite frustrating that there is nothing on the drawing board, to address the real need.
 
ATCtower
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:46 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 5:04 am

I agree with the rest. We all answer why, where it seems BOE answers why not?

The ONLY route I can think that a plane like this could even be reasonable is LHR-SYD which I know the 77L 'can' make, I dont believe it can do it with a load of pax and maintaining all divert mins.

Could one route really support such a platform?
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
rj777
Posts: 1549
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 5:31 am

I'm wondering a couple of things:
1)Will the 777X have any design elements from the 737MAX (for example the new winglets)
2)How much of a size difference will there be between the -8X and the -200LR and the -9X and the -300ER?
3)And with so much interest from airlines practically ORDERING Boeing to commit to it (BA, EK, etc.), how long will it be before the first official commitment is made from a customer?
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3952
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 5:31 am

I'm one of those that would rather just stay on the plane instead of making a stop. It would have to be in at least a Y+ format but I find a stop just makes my total flight time longer and gives me less chance for a good, long sleep.

Give me non-stop every time.
What the...?
 
soyuz
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:35 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 5:53 am

IMO, a big selling point for the new 777 will be its (paradoxically) wider body than the XWB's. The A350-1000's fuselage width pretty much precludes 10 abreast seating (given how tight it is already on the current 777) and will make 9 abreast somewhat less comfortable for the ever increasing extra wide body human population. If Boeing gets this plane right, it has the potential to eat into the A350-1000's sales big time. As for the ultra-long range, there would have to be a big fuel saving compared to its contemporaries if it is to be used for that purpose by airlines.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18258
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 5:56 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 11):
I'm one of those that would rather just stay on the plane instead of making a stop. It would have to be in at least a Y+ format but I find a stop just makes my total flight time longer and gives me less chance for a good, long sleep.

Give me non-stop every time.

I'm exactly the reverse. After about eight hours, I;m screaming to be let off. I'd rather have a stopover for a couple of days, somewhere interesting.

Why pay all that money just to get there?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 6:00 am

The 777F needs a refresh anyway so why not offer the -8LR? Its the same plane.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 3794
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 6:15 am

Doesn't Airbus say the A350-900R will be able to do LHR-AKL nonstop w/o pax and LHR-SYD with pax? So wouldn't that be the longest ranged pax airliner?

With talk of A32X and 737s of doing TATL, and 777s and A350s flying halfway across the world, I guess the next step is for Beech 1900s fly transcon!
Beauty is watching a 787 bank to make a short final. Bliss is watching that 787 with a good beer. Nirvana is all of that with a beautiful woman on your side.
 
ASA
Posts: 1006
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:12 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 6:31 am

Boeing already makes the 77L and will make the 789 soon ... covering almost EVERY market other than the Kangaroos. Do they really need anything that can fly longer? Or is is a case of "mine is longer than yours?"

Is Emirates looking to run passenger drop missions over Australia and come back to DXB without refueling?  
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 3962
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 6:33 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 15):
Doesn't Airbus say the A350-900R will be able to do LHR-AKL nonstop w/o pax and LHR-SYD with pax? So wouldn't that be the longest ranged pax airliner?

  

19,100 km (10,300 nmi) range planed for the A950-900R
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2806
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 6:39 am

I can't realistically see how airlines would be demanding that Boeing builds this.

Airlines haven't flocked to other products they have made to satisfy demand in the part, including the 77L and even more recently the 748. Initial interest is one thing, but handing over the cash is another.

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):
Is Emirates looking to run passenger drop missions over Australia and come back to DXB without refueling?

You never know, it is EK  

Maybe they are planning mid air passenger transfers... oh the reality ...

[Edited 2013-05-03 23:40:28]
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2806
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 6:41 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 17):

19,100 km (10,300 nmi) range planed for the A950-900R

With what load though?
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3952
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 6:42 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 18):
I can't realistically see how airlines would be demanding that Boeing builds this.

Boeing won't unless someone asks for it. The base model will be the -9 and the -8 will be a shrink. If nobody wants the -8, (which I suspect will not be a huge seller regardless), it won't get made.

The -8's best chance of being made is if it becomes Boeing's new 777F.
What the...?
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8007
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 6:48 am

I think SQ dropped the LAX-SIN and EWR-SIN routes because the A340-500 was not economical enough to justify the cost of such a long flight. With the 777-8X, SQ might seriously look at reviving this route again--if Airbus doesn't offer it first with the A350XWB-900R.
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 6:58 am

There is no market for Ultra Long Range aircraft and Boeing must know this. The 77L and the A345 have not been very successful. I wonder why Boeing wants to get into this segment again.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2806
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 6:59 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 21):
I think SQ dropped the LAX-SIN and EWR-SIN routes because the A340-500 was not economical enough to justify the cost of such a long flight. With the 777-8X, SQ might seriously look at reviving this route again--if Airbus doesn't offer it first with the A350XWB-900R.

I guess we will see.

The economics and market appeal of such routes is a complex one. Whether you can get sufficient yield premiums for such flights is questionable at this stage.

Whether is a 345, 77L or any of the new generation of ULH planes, it may not matter which aircraft it is, as the market may not support such a strategy, especially if there is a reliance on those stops to increase passenger LF's and yield maximisation.
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 7:01 am

People.

Forget about range. It's all about PAYLOAD.

This aircraft will be a killer machine for trans-Pacific underfloor cargo in addition to the passenger cabin - and I give 5 years at the most until 777-8XF is announced. Just wait until 777F clears its backlog...
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
User avatar
rotating14
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:54 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 7:22 am

Gentlemen with all due respect, Boeing is NOT building a plane that will flop or not sell. They are building this with the input of airline executives, people who are telling them what to build and not to build. In the end, granted, Boeing builds what the customer(s) wants and what Boeing see as a viable business case. ULH dying and not making economic sense is purely a personal opinion. The Willy Walsh's and TC's of the world clearly think differently.

Boeing held on to the 747 frame thinking that it would last forever and didn't think that it was necessary to go forward with the double decker versions and now the rest is history. Cue the A380. My point is that they, Boeing, are acting on customer input and history to build these air-frames. Lets just sit back, relax, grab the tub of pop corn and see what happens.     
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2806
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 7:29 am

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 25):
Boeing is NOT building a plane that will flop or not sell.

The market will dictate that I guess.

What is needed in a CEO's mind today may be very different 10 years from now. Strategies change by the day afterall, as we are all well aware.

Interesting times ahead.
 
a380heavy
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:01 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 7:42 am

Am I the only person who wishes that the aircraft manufacturers would develop airliners that get from A to B quicker rather than fly further for longer.

How many people step off a long haul flight after breathing in 350 other people's farts for 15 hours, look happy and refreshed?
Flown in:732,733,734,738,742,752,763,772,F27,DC9,MD-11,A300,A332,ATR72,DHC-6,Bell206,C172,Auster,PA-28
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3657
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 7:51 am

Quoting questions (Reply 7):
And how long do people really want to be on a flight?

Some do. Give me a LAX-SIN non-stop over a connection any day of the year. I sleep, work, catch up on some personal reading, watch a movie or two, and I'm there, rested and ready! I don't miss the hassle of putting laptop and books back in my carry-on, change plane and settle in again...

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
Why pay all that money just to get there?

Less time in the air for the man = more free time for me!
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6346
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 8:06 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 3):
With a range of 9500 nm, this can do the most obvious with LHR/SYD-MEL, and then maybe PEK-ICN-NRT/GRU

This is only 100Nm nominal further than the 772LR. This "longest range airliner" is really a tick-box exercise in that respect. Its operating economics out at longer ranges will be far more relevant IMO

Quoting soyuz (Reply 12):
The A350-1000's fuselage width pretty much precludes 10 abreast seating (given how tight it is already on the current 777) and will make 9 abreast somewhat less comfortable for the ever increasing extra wide body human population

Doesn't bode well for the 787 really, does it?  
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 15):
Doesn't Airbus say the A350-900R will be able to do LHR-AKL nonstop w/o pax and LHR-SYD with pax? So wouldn't that be the longest ranged pax airliner?

It's not even being offered yet. somewhat pertinently for this thread, many say it won't be offered as the demand for a plane with that range will be so low....

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 19):
With what load though?

Nominal passengers. Just like the 777-8LX

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 25):
Gentlemen with all due respect, Boeing is NOT building a plane that will flop or not sell. They are building this with the input of airline executives, people who are telling them what to build and not to build.

Just like the A380 then.  

Rgds
 
User avatar
817Dreamliiner
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:12 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 8:12 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 24):
People.

Forget about range. It's all about PAYLOAD.

  
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6674
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 8:24 am

Quoting tioloko100 (Thread starter):
Business travellers will soon be able to enjoy lots of non-stops flights around the globe.

Unfortunately IMO this aircraft will not be opening many new routes.

Quoting point2point (Reply 3):
this can do the most obvious with LHR/SYD-MEL, and then maybe NRT/PEK/ICN-GRU.

I would be surprised if it is used for any of these routes.

Don't get me wrong a 20% improvement in fuel burn and a 35 seat bump in seats over the 77E/L will help to make some new routes viable for the shorter 777 but these routes will hardly be new direct flights. Rather the true value of the aircraft will be in its ability to carry more freight further. SYD-LHR is a pipe dream. Who would pay twice as much to save 2 hours especially now that DXB is a great stopping point? And what airline would sacrifice their premium passengers on those kangaroo routes in the process? Those seats have to come from somewhere. Maybe a small new-comer.

SYD-NYC/ATL and as has been previously said renewing the SQ routes are possible now that you have 35 more seats to offset the gas costs and the improved efficiency. However the real value are routes like DXB-IAH/SFO/LAX, HKG-LAX, and other payload heavy where the additional seats, increased cargo capacity, and reduced fuel burn combine to make airlines more money. After all this is the bases for the new 77XF freighter. The first version carries passengers and the next version is a freight train.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 24):
It's all about PAYLOAD.

Definitely agree.

tortugamon
 
TC957
Posts: 2092
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 9:02 am

I just can't see any European airline needing a plane of that range as they simply don't have the routes, LHR-SYD/MEL or LHR-AKL excepted. Or possibly IST-SYD. Middle East airlines - again nothing that can't be done with aircraft they already have. US Airlines - a few routes like to SIN or BKK or LAX /SFO - India maybe. Asian airlines - could open up South America and, as has already been suggested, re-instate non-stop SIN/BKK - JFK/LAX etc. South American airlines - likewise could bring direct flights to key Asian markets.
QF have invested so much with the EK tie-up that I don't see them needing a plane for non-stops to Europe either, unless they look at routes like to JFK or YYZ.
If Boeing launch the 777-8LR, I can see the -8LRF selling better than the pax version. But the -9 will be looked at as possibly the ideal 77W replacement and EK said already they may want up to 275 of them.
 
User avatar
Faro
Posts: 1494
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 9:18 am

The ULH market has always been and remains grossly over-rated. There are basically two significant routes fans that may warrant a longer-range aircraft than the 772LR, LHR-SYD/MEL/PER and NRT/ICN/PVG-GRU. Besides those two, you really don't have much of a market for more range.

Factor in any jump in fuel prices over the next 6-7 years and the cost of burning fuel to carry fuel may become quasi-prohibitive for any normal (ie, non J-only) pax mix.

Technically a very nice concept of course, but commercially a very dodgy proposition...

Faro

[Edited 2013-05-04 02:42:18]
The chalice not my son
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 9:25 am

Alan Joyce promised to finally sign Qantas up for the 777 if it could do SYD-LHR non stop year round with a full load.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 20196
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 9:31 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
How many would Boeing need to build to reach the break even point?

Same wing, same engine, I think the certification costs will be relatively low. Perhaps even 20 to 30 frames might be enough to cover the costs.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 29):
This is only 100Nm nominal further than the 772LR. This "longest range airliner" is really a tick-box exercise in that respect. Its operating economics out at longer ranges will be far more relevant IMO

It's a sensational title for the media.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 29):
It's not even being offered yet. somewhat pertinently for this thread, many say it won't be offered as the demand for a plane with that range will be so low....

Airbus will first focus on the -800, -900 and -1000 models. After that, around the end of the decade maybe, they might study the use case for an 900R again.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 24):
Forget about range. It's all about PAYLOAD.

  

Just imagine, EK can now carry 350 pax and 30+ tonnes of cargo on DXB-LAX  

[Edited 2013-05-04 02:40:00]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
User avatar
Faro
Posts: 1494
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 9:43 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 35):

Just imagine, EK can now carry 350 pax and 30+ tonnes of cargo on DXB-LAX

Is there demand for that much cargo between the Gulf in general and the US West Coast?


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 9:45 am

Quoting crownvic (Reply 8):
I was fortunate enough to have flown Concorde JFK-LHR.

Sweet!

Quoting crownvic (Reply 8):
It is quite frustrating that there is nothing on the drawing board,

40 years ago, many thought that something even more advanced than the Concorde would have been developed before 2013.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 32):
US Airlines - a few routes like to SIN or BKK or LAX /SFO

I'd like to see that.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 35):
Same wing, same engine, I think the certification costs will be relatively low. Perhaps even 20 to 30 frames might be enough to cover the costs.

Thanks. That is a very low threshold. It might as well be worth it for Boeing to go forward with this.
Bring back the Concorde
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 20196
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 9:54 am

Quoting a380heavy (Reply 27):
Am I the only person who wishes that the aircraft manufacturers would develop airliners that get from A to B quicker rather than fly further for longer.

You will burn more fuel by travelling faster. Are you willing to pay twice for a ticket if an airline can cut travel time in half? Most people not.

Quoting a380heavy (Reply 27):
How many people step off a long haul flight after breathing in 350 other people's farts for 15 hours, look happy and refreshed?

  
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
waly777
Posts: 416
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:11 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 9:54 am

I think people are focusing way too much on its range capability.

It's selling point will be its ability to carry full payload on 5500nm+ routes where the 9X and A350-1000 are mzfw limited. This will include the polar routes, transpacific, middle east to north and south america whilst carrying 350ish pax.

It will be a niche aircraft but it will certainly do better than the B77L, because even though that is a good aircraft...the cost per seat was rather high seeing it carries roughly 300 pax vs 353 for the 8LX.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
richcandy
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:49 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 10:07 am

Just a question.

Is there a market for a aircraft that can do LHR-SYD/MEL/AKL non stop with a full load all year round?

Or do NZ/BA/VS/QF need to sell seats between the intermediate points in order for the route to work as far as revenue goes.

In other words just for example do NZ make enough money from LHR-AKL or v.v. to make the route pay or do they need the revenue from LHR-LAX & v.v. & LAX-AKL & v.v ticket sales to make it pay?

Alex
 
User avatar
Faro
Posts: 1494
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 10:16 am

Quoting waly777 (Reply 39):
It's selling point will be its ability to carry full payload on 5500nm+ routes where the 9X and A350-1000 are mzfw limited. This will include the polar routes, transpacific, middle east to north and south america whilst carrying 350ish pax.

But most cargo isn't in a such a hurry to absolutely avoid a fuel stop midway along its route; and the bonus is that you consume less fuel with such stop than without. Cargo is not ULH-sensitive; it is cost-sensitive.


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 20196
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 10:19 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Thanks. That is a very low threshold. It might as well be worth it for Boeing to go forward with this.

I'm sure that Boeing will keep the sales of the 77LR in mind. If they continue with the knowledge of selling about 60 ULH airfarmes than that's an indication of a low threshold to me. Something like 20 to 30 frames maybe.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 39):
I think people are focusing way too much on its range capability.

  

Quoting waly777 (Reply 39):
It's selling point will be its ability to carry full payload on 5500nm+ routes where the 9X and A350-1000 are mzfw limited. This will include the polar routes, transpacific, middle east to north and south america whilst carrying 350ish pax.

  
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
AngMoh
Posts: 749
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 10:29 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 28):
Some do. Give me a LAX-SIN non-stop over a connection any day of the year. I sleep, work, catch up on some personal reading, watch a movie or two, and I'm there, rested and ready! I don't miss the hassle of putting laptop and books back in my carry-on, change plane and settle in again...

In J: yes non-stop is preferred. In Y it is a different story. I have done SIN-EWR in what was more or less Y+ and I don't want to do that again. In Y it will kill you. In J (SQ 1-2-1 config), I would choose the non-stop option.

When I flew it SIN-EWR, J was packed, Y empty. EWR-SIN was full in J and 80% full in Y and I was told by the crew it is highly unusual. That is the reason it was changed to an all-J flight.

Crewing is also a problem for such a long flight. The FAs told me that for them it is a really tough flight. The schedule was that at departure, all crew are working the first 3 hours and then there are 2 6-hour shifts (12 hours total) and the last 3 hours all are active again. This works for 100-180 passengers, but with 300 this might be problem.

And on an other note: it took 45 mins after takeoff from EWR to reach cruising altitude. I have flown many times and never had such a slow climb as that time and you could really notice the plane was close to MTOW. It is really a sign how much extra fuel you need to bring to carry relatively few passengers a few hours further. Don't forget that the first few hours you mainly burn fuel to carry the fuel.

Quoting faro (Reply 33):

The ULH market has always been and remains grossly over-rated. There are basically two significant routes fans that may warrant a longer-range aircraft than the 772LR, LHR-SYD/MEL/PER and NRT/ICN/PVG-GRU. Besides those two, you really don't have much of a market for more range.

I can't see LHR to Australia non-stop work because in Y it is not doable, and especially with the QF-EK alliance it is a no go.
For NRT/ICN/PVG-GRU, the traffic is not there.

The 777-8LR will be great for maximising payloads on current routes like SYD-DFW, JFK-JNB and DBX-LAX, but I don't see longer ones appear.
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 742 743 744 752 762 772 773 77W A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 20196
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 10:32 am

Quoting faro (Reply 36):
Is there demand for that much cargo between the Gulf in general and the US West Coast?

Tim Clark often complains about payload/range shortage.

Quoting faro (Reply 41):
But most cargo isn't in a such a hurry to absolutely avoid a fuel stop midway along its route; and the bonus is that you consume less fuel with such stop than without. Cargo is not ULH-sensitive; it is cost-sensitive.

You will burn more fuel with a full cargo belly but if the cargo revenue can covers those costs then why not. Sure this will not work for every customer but there are a few routes out there which can use such an airframe. Like DBX-LAX.

[Edited 2013-05-04 03:33:53]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 10:38 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 42):
I'm sure that Boeing will keep the sales of the 77LR in mind. If they continue with the knowledge of selling about 60 ULH airfarmes than that's an indication of a low threshold to me. Something like 20 to 30 frames maybe.

Any chance of seeing a 747-8I LR version?
I really hope sales of the 747-8I picks up.
Bring back the Concorde
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3797
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 11:18 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 29):
This is only 100Nm nominal further than the 772LR. This "longest range airliner" is really a tick-box exercise in that respect. Its operating economics out at longer ranges will be far more relevant IMO

  

Quoting astuteman (Reply 29):
Doesn't bode well for the 787 really, does it?  


 . Sharp comment.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 29):
Just like the A380 then.

Indeed.  .

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 24):
Forget about range. It's all about PAYLOAD.

  

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 35):
It's a sensational title for the media.

Nothing wrong with some good old marketing.  .

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 44):
Tim Clark often complains about payload/range shortage.

But he often is the only one. But with his order-potential aircraft manufacturers and engine manufacturers better listen carefully to what he has to say.  .
 
workhorse
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:35 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 11:38 am

Quoting soyuz (Reply 12):

IMO, a big selling point for the new 777 will be its (paradoxically) wider body than the XWB's. The A350-1000's fuselage width pretty much precludes 10 abreast seating (given how tight it is already on the current 777) and will make 9 abreast somewhat less comfortable for the ever increasing extra wide body human population.

It is actually the other way round. No carrier, with the exception maybe of the most ruthless LCC's, is going to put 10 seats across in the A350. And you can be sure that, with the excuse of "thinner walls ", all carriers (even those who put 9 across in current generations 777's) will go 10 across on the 778/779. With this, and the generalization of the 9 abreast 787, it looks like Boeing is set to become the "less comfort" manufacturer compared to Airbus. Which is a real pity, if you ask me.
 
cv990Coronado
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:38 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 11:41 am

Quoting AngHoh

"I can't see LHR to Australia non-stop work because in Y it is not doable, and especially with the QF-EK alliance it is a no go.
For NRT/ICN/PVG-GRU, the traffic is not there.

The 777-8LR will be great for maximising payloads on current routes like SYD-DFW, JFK-JNB and DBX-LAX, but I don't see longer ones appear."

I agree and I don't think the situation will improve. Oil prices over the next ten years are more than likely going to increase in real terms which makes tankering even more expensive.

Non Stop SYDLHR will not save a great deal of time over the SIN or DXB route. If you are travelling from MEL, BNE or ADL or if you are going to other destinations in the UK or Europe then a DXB connection will probably be quicker.

The sales of ULH aircraft from the 747SP thru the A345 and the 77L have never but great and I don't see the 777-8X being any different.
SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
 
airbazar
Posts: 6943
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Boeing To Build World's Longest-range Airliner

Sat May 04, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 25):
Gentlemen with all due respect, Boeing is NOT building a plane that will flop or not sell.

Right. Because they've never done that before. 787-300, 748i *caugh*

Quoting astuteman (Reply 29):
It's not even being offered yet. somewhat pertinently for this thread, many say it won't be offered as the demand for a plane with that range will be so low....

That all depends on how much it will cost to develop/produce, much like the 77L. If it's just another variant with minimal investment required, I don't see why not.

Quoting faro (Reply 33):
The ULH market has always been and remains grossly over-rated.

Maybe, although we keep moving the goal posts on what ULH really is. A couple of decades ago spending more than 12 hours on a plane was almost unheard of. Today there are dozens, if not hundreds of 12+ hr routes. When the 744 was launched people were saying the same thing: Who wants to spend 14 hours in a metal tube?  The rest is history.

But as many said, the big advantage of such a plane is not so much opening up new routes, which there aren't that many to begin with, but making exisitng routes that are at the threshold of the range/payload curve that much more viable and profitable.

Quoting faro (Reply 41):
But most cargo isn't in a such a hurry to absolutely avoid a fuel stop midway along its route;

No the cargo isn't, but the people sitting above it are. You have to meet the demands of both.