727LOVER
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Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 12:33 pm

Well DL just announced LAX-PDX and there was some speculation that it was payback for AS announcing PDX-ATL a few days ago. Retalliation?......who knows?  

But it got me thinking about flights added supposedly as retaliation which was an outcome of deregulation in any country. So I'm curious:

1. Name some big retaliation route announcements
2. The outcome.....did original airline drop the route,?
did retalliaiting airline drop the route?
both quit?
both stayed on?

3. The spin on both sides.

The one that comes to mind for me is NW going donkey kong when AA started MSP-LGA

By the way, I do understand that an airline has the right to defend its "TURF"....so let's not get into that war

  

[Edited 2013-05-10 05:36:09]
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
airtran737
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 1:24 pm

B6 entered ATL and flew ATL-LGB and ATL-OAK. DL flooded the market, lowered fares, FL contracted Ryan International to fly A320's to the west coast for them, and soon B6 tucked tail and ran from ATL.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 1:30 pm

NW DEN-LAX toward F9 for launching MSP-DEN/LAX

NW FNT-LGA for AA starting FNT-LGA
Both carriers operated this for a brief period with dismal loadfactors on ER3 & CRJs. AA pulled out first, and NW was not too far behind

NW LGA-DFW service for AA starting LGA-MSP, NW never started LGA-DFW, and AA dropped LGA-MSP since the MD-80 was too much capacity for the route

AA DAL-ORD/LGA/LAX with F-100s in a 56 seat configuration for Legend starting service
 
flyiguy
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 1:53 pm

UA flooding the market with EWR to SFO/LAX in response to VX

WN launching BOS to HOU in response to B6 starting service

Don't forget the pissing match going on between DL & AS right now

FLY

[Edited 2013-05-10 06:57:35]
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727LOVER
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 1:57 pm

Was there any response from AA or UA when DL started LGA-ORD?
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STT757
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 1:59 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):

1. Name some big retaliation route announcements

In the late '90s UA launched EWR-BOS, EWR-SEA, EWR-SAN. CO responded by launching ORD-BOS, ORD-SEA, ORD-SAN. UA dropped those routes after just a few months, and CO dropped their response.

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 3):
UA flooding the market with EWR to SFO/LAX in response to VX

This isn't the first time, ATA launched EWR-SFO around 2002/2003 and CO did the same thing by nearly doubling their own EWR-SFO flights. ATA didn't last long on EWR-SFO.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
simairlinenet
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 2:01 pm

My favorite for its sheer ridiculousness:
-On starting, Independence Air flew IAD-LAN (former United Express route? Not sure).
-Northwest began 4x daily IAD-LAN (I worked these flights).
-Independence Air folded, of course.
-Northwest moved the route to DCA-LAN at 1x daily and eventually closed the route (during the merger?).
-Today DCA-LAN is (surprisingly flown), albeit by Sun Country.
 
727LOVER
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 2:07 pm

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 3):
WN launching BOS to HOU in response to B6 starting service

I'm not sure if that counts because because that IS a route that makes sense for WN. Where else does WN fly from BOS?

[Edited 2013-05-10 07:08:40]
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
flyiguy
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 2:25 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 7):

Well considering they had every chance to run it since opening BOS and never did until B6 announced it I'd say it is a valid route but retaliatory or territorial.
The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 2:48 pm

At RDU.. ************

ExpressJet started RDU-JAX, MCI, MSY, SDF, IAD, BMH

AA felt their turf was being challenged and started RDU-JAX, MCI, SDF

ExpressJet pulled service, American pulled service, RDU hasn't had return service since..

MCI and MSY are REALLY needed...

At RDU.. ********

American starts daily LAX, Delta bumps up to daily
Aiming High and going far..
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 3:01 pm

Didn't DL announce MYR-ACY when NK entered ATL?
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sccutler
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 3:08 pm

Can't get more blatant than AA launching its 56-seat F100 service from DAL, after Legend initiated its services there.

Counterpoint is that AA "had to compete" in that marketplace. That it was never a viable business for AA only serves to show... well, what it shows depends upon whose ax you're grinding, right?

In any event, they kept it going until 9/11 gave a convenient excuse for cancellation.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 3:14 pm

Not a "route" per se, but UA adding DC-10s to COS-DEN in the 1990s during the Western Pacific years.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 3:16 pm

My opinion, over the last 20 or so years I've followed US aviation, is that NW was the most "territorial".

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 6):
My favorite for its sheer ridiculousness:
-On starting, Independence Air flew IAD-LAN (former United Express route? Not sure).
-Northwest began 4x daily IAD-LAN (I worked these flights).
-Independence Air folded, of course.
-Northwest moved the route to DCA-LAN at 1x daily and eventually closed the route (during the merger?).
-Today DCA-LAN is (surprisingly flown), albeit by Sun Country.

+1. I think that is a textbook example of retaliatory flying. NW 4x on LAN-IAD...was comical. (LAN-DCA however, is another story).

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 9):
ExpressJet started RDU-JAX, MCI, MSY, SDF, IAD, BMH

AA felt their turf was being challenged and started RDU-JAX, MCI, SDF

ExpressJet pulled service, American pulled service, RDU hasn't had return service since..

And unfortunately, that's usually the way it goes (for non-stop same city retaliation). Airline A (usually a smaller player) announces a new route, airline B matches, airline A drops service, then airline B drops service.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 3:20 pm

Didn't IB launch a very short-lived BCN-GRU flight in response to SQ launching the route?
 
EricR
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 3:23 pm

AA launched DSM-LGA in 2006 or 2007. Shortly thereafter, NW launched DSM-LGA. Too much capacity for two carriers, so AA drops the route and NW also exits soon afterwards.


http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/n...orthwest_airlines_to_begin_da.html

[Edited 2013-05-10 08:26:37]
 
simairlinenet
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 3:25 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 13):
My opinion, over the last 20 or so years I've followed US aviation, is that NW was the most "territorial".

Agreed. Here's perhaps the biggest example (predates me), Northwest vs. Reno Air:
-Reno Air announced 3x daily RNO-MSP
-Northwest announced RNO-LAX/MSP/SAN/SEA (not sure any aside from RNO-MSP were ever flown)
-Reno Air pulled out after 3 months
-Northwest also flew DTW-RNO (2x daily?) in the '90s--I'm not sure if that was related

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...t-northwest-airlines-75213897.html
 
SurfandSnow
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 3:37 pm

IIRC, when AS added SAN-BOS B6 announced SEA-ANC the next day. However, it's usually VX that irks B6. B6 made sure to add service into SFO and LAX - after years of serving San Francisco via alternates OAK and SJC, and serving Los Angeles via alternates BUR, LGB, and ONT - once it became clear that VX would actually begin service. When VX announced service to FLL (SFO/LAX-FLL), B6 announced its own FLL-SFO service the next day, claiming that SFO had been a top request from FLL.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 4:06 pm

Retaliation routes are usually a money losing bad idea. In some instances like BOS-HOU for WN they are routes that should be flown anyway. Retaliation is reaction not proactive strategy. Business that are reactive aren't successful.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 4:43 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 17):


IIRC, when AS added SAN-BOS B6 announced SEA-ANC the next day.

Also both airlines have heavily increased SEA-BOS in their recent scuffles and B6 doubled seasonal PDX-BOS.


I'm surprised US hasn't pulled any funny business with the start of BOS-PHL on B6
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
eastern747
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 5:17 pm

Why do I get the impression the airlines act like children in a kindergarden sandbox. I thought routes were studied seriously and based on cost effectiveness. I don't get it. It must cost big $$$$ to open a station, or at least farm the ground handling. Borman was determined to enter the trans-con business. Every true bloodied manager and director said bad idea. But he was "the conductor of the symphony". (A speech he made in a meeting). I select the the songs and you play it. Anyway we went forward and had all types of problems. Nobody wanted to move to CA because it was so expensive for housing and everything. (We worked for an airline FGS) Anyway, no gates, so we rented from......TWA. RIGHT smart decision......EA arrives from JFK at the same time a TWA flight arrives....guess who got the bags off loaded first? A lot of thinking should be done before jumping a route for payback.
 
klwright69
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 3):
UA flooding the market with EWR to SFO/LAX in response to VX


I would not count this as a "retaliatory route." The thread implies a new route started in retaliation, not just upping frequency on a route that's already a crucial established route anyway.

I would call a "retaliatory route" is something oddball and unexpected like LAX-DEN on NW.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 6:14 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2):

NW LGA-DFW service for AA starting LGA-MSP, NW never started LGA-DFW, and AA dropped LGA-MSP since the MD-80 was too much capacity for the route

AA non-stop mainline is gone from LGA-MSP, but today's schedule shows 4 x CR7 on American Eagle. (Compare to 5x A320 + 2 x MD-88 on DL.)
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 6:16 pm

Ok does this only happen in the U.S.?

Because from what I seen is only Dolphin Air mentioned an international routing where this happened with Iberia. This has to have happened elsewhere especially countries with multiple carriers like has Asiana ever retaliated on a Korean Air route, Virgin and BA, BA and Ryanair...

Or perhaps Qantas retaliating to Singapore Airlines between Sydney and Singapore.

Or a US airlines retaliating on a foreign route and vice versa. I can think of for example Air Jamaica flew between MBJ and MCO for years, then Jet Blue started flying MCO-MBJ followed shortly by TRS. Air Jamaica went out of business and in came Carribean Airlines about a year later and started flying the route.

What about Aeroflots return to MIA after it had just been Transaero serving it for years?

This has to happen elsewhere all the time but most of the people answering on here are Americans. The domestic stuff is putting me to ZZZZZ
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 22):
AA non-stop mainline is gone from LGA-MSP, but today's schedule shows 4 x CR7 on American Eagle. (Compare to 5x A320 + 2 x MD-88 on DL.)

AA started LGA-MSP with MD-80s in 2007 but was dropped in 2008.
AA restarted LGA-MSP with CR7s in 2010 and its been flown ever since.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 23):

"What about Aeroflots return to MIA after it had just been Transaero serving it for years?"

If UN had been serving MIA for years, how would SU's return be qualified as retaliatory?
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
Skyguy
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 7:37 pm

B6 started JFK-LGB in 2003 with A320's, AA soon started a competing JFK-LGB flight with a B757, and AA offered cheap fares, I bought a round trip JFK-LGB for a long weekend for $186. AA stopped that flight after 1 year and B6 started flying to LAX.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
tymnbalewne
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 7:41 pm

EC (a BA subsidiary) started JFK-ORY flights....so AF started LHR-LAX. AF didn't last long on the route.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
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psa1011
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 9:07 pm

WN returning to SFO in 2007 after completely abandoning it in 2001, all to compete with VX, resembles classic retaliation.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 9:49 pm

I remember AA starting up STN-JFK purely to put Eos and MaxJet out of business. After that mission was accomplished, the route disappeared as quickly as it started.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 9:56 pm

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 25):
"What about Aeroflots return to MIA after it had just been Transaero serving it for years?"

If UN had been serving MIA for years, how would SU's return be qualified as retaliatory?

I thought it was longer but apparently UN started in October 2010 - SU returned November 2012. I don't know when SU pulled out of MIA, but I know they were there in the 1990s with Russian built aircraft.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 10:00 pm

US starting PHL-SLC last year. DL announced PHL-SLC less than a week later. It's been flown daily with a mix of 320s and 737s since by Delta.
What gets measured gets done.
 
stlgph
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 10:03 pm

American starting St. Louis and Kansas City to Dallas Love Field instantly comes to mind.

Northwest started several midwest airport to Las Vegas point to point routes against Allegiant Air.
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 10:14 pm

There also seemed to be a spat between Republic and DL last year as well.
What gets measured gets done.
 
JU068
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 23):

Hmm I hope these help a bit  

I do not know if this is relevant but Qatar just announced Clark flights, this announcement was made only a few months after Emirates announced their own flights. It could be a move to counter Emirates' expansion in Manila (speaking in Ryanair terms).

When Atlas Jet launched Ataturk-Ankara flights Turkish Airlines used their political connections to kill them (if I am not mistaken).

A few years ago Aegean entered the Larnaca-Rhodes market by launching a few weekly direct flights. Cyprus Airways responded by launching their own direct flights (which operated via Heraklion back then) and by considerably lowering their fares. As CY is a government backed financial black hole, Aegean was left with no other choice but to withdraw from the market leaving Cyprus Airways as the sole carrier on this market. They did not miss this opportunity to reintroduce flights via Heraklion and to charge 250 Euros for a 40 minute flight.

When Niki launched flights between Vienna and Belgrade (six weekly), both Jat Airways and Austrian Airlines responded by adding frequencies and lowering their fares. Jat lowered their fares from 180 Euros to 99 while Austrian Airlines lowered their fares from 250 to 99 Euros. Naturally, Niki left the market and both airlines increased their fares.
 
sunnyflyer
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 11:14 pm

One of the best: EA flying A300's to LAX frm BOS 1980's
"night coach"no checked baggage lv apprx 2300 arr 0300 or so,.some sort of freight contract,bev service only.
TW moved eve ns flt as late as poss so did AA.
 
lawair
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 11:53 pm

B6 did not serve BWI (and did not seem to be actively considering BWI) until WN announced they were starting BWI-BOS. A few days after WN announced, I believe, B6 announced BOS-BWI. The route had been served by DL and FL prior to both announcements. DL fled before any first shots were fired, and FL fortified its hold on the route by adding about two additional frequencies. WN, B6, and FL fought it out for maybe a year or so until FL agreed to be taken over by WN. Once WN gained control of FL's forces, some of the redundant frequencies were pared back a bit. Going forward B6 and WN will be the two remaining players on BWI-BOS.
 
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kngkyle
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 11:56 pm

I know when VX first started flying ORD-SFO, UA responded by going from around 10 daily flights to 18, including many widebodies.
 
JONC777
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Fri May 10, 2013 11:59 pm

I would argue WN's entire reason for restarting SFO was VX's launch of service. Although I'm sure its fit into a profitiable business plan, the timing of the announcment was quite suspect at the time. Also I rememver AA offering double miles from DFW-MCI increased service and low fares to fight off Vanguard.
 
802flyguy
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Sat May 11, 2013 1:16 am

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 16):
greed. Here's perhaps the biggest example (predates me), Northwest vs. Reno Air:
-Reno Air announced 3x daily RNO-MSP
-Northwest announced RNO-LAX/MSP/SAN/SEA (not sure any aside from RNO-MSP were ever flown)
-Reno Air pulled out after 3 months
-Northwest also flew DTW-RNO (2x daily?) in the '90s--I'm not sure if that was related

Thanks for bring that situation up, Simair. I remember that, also remember that the DOT got involved and NW backed off. I could be wrong.

A long time ago, during the heyday of People Express, Piedmont retaliated encroachment into PI turf (ORF, IIRC) and buried People's with lower fares and added flights.
 
MSNfan
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Sat May 11, 2013 1:55 am

Right after Allegiant started service from MSN-LAS, NW immediately added a red-eye turn with an A319 that would otherwise have been RON. Eventually Allegiant backed off, and NW did shortly thereafter...
Dentistry: Because everyone smiles in the same language!
 
incitatus
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Sat May 11, 2013 2:11 am

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 20):
Why do I get the impression the airlines act like children in a kindergarden sandbox.

Superficially I say your comment makes sense, but this type of behavior is widespread, and not simply as a knee jerk reaction. It is easier to spot with airlines, and also easier to execute because the start-up costs for a route between two airports already served is not high.

Sometimes it is essential to survival. Say a packaged goods company moves to larger boxes. The competitor will feel compelled to match the box increase, because the unit cost for the customer will be smaller. A similar example is the route mentioned in this thread SLC-PHL. All passengers used connecting services. Once an airline offered a nonstop, the other airline with large share in this market quickly realized that it was either offer an improved product too or see customers migrate to the competitor. It seems a completely rational business decision.
Conservatives against Trump
 
fly2yyz
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Sat May 11, 2013 2:15 am

Could add plenty of ex Canadian airlines and AC.

Oh and the AC/VX LAX YYZ route.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Sat May 11, 2013 2:21 am

Quoting stlgph (Reply 32):
American starting St. Louis and Kansas City to Dallas Love Field instantly comes to mind.

That wasnt retaliation. That was flying anything they could from DAL. Plus on paper at least STL made sense
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Sat May 11, 2013 2:32 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
In some instances like BOS-HOU for WN they are routes that should be flown anyway. Retaliation is reaction not proactive strategy. Business that are reactive aren't successful.

I'd generally agree that business that are reactive aren't successful, but we need to be a little careful. If WN was planning to start BOS-HOU in 2014 (plausible) and moved it up a year when B6 started, I don't know that that's really a foolish strategy.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PEK777
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Sat May 11, 2013 2:41 am

1. Midwest turns down purchase from AirTran. AirTran sets up hub in Milwaukee, going after every market on the Midwest timetable. This was more than a simple route retaliation, this was pure PWNage.
NWA had already started MKE-BOS, LAX, LGA, DC, MCO? ect circa 2004 if I recall correctly. Not sure how this related to NWA's pursuit of Midwest with TPG.

2. A simple bloodbath tuned into a massacre. NWA retreats, Midwest dies, Frontier retreats, Southwest kills AirTran.


3. This is where it gets interesting. AirTran ad campaign can read 'AirTran's Milwaukee Hub: Another Promise Kept' as Frontier/Republic struggles and retreats. AirTran were not saddled with the 'history' in MIKE that Frontier/Republic inherited, so they would not be castrated as much if they dropped routes or frequency. AirTran was free to optimize its MKE operation, while Frontier has to deal with arguments about chocolate chip cookies among other things.
I have managed to fly every airline involved in this, and in the end I would say they all put the 'Big 3' Legacy carriers to shame. Midwest had a superb product, AirTran had an incredibly consistent product and dedication to the market, and Frontier such an awesome brand and livery (until a couple days ago, at least)

I'm sure some of you are more familiar with how this all played out, but AirTran's Milwaukee hub to me seemed like the 'Ultimate Retaliation' for the failed acquisition.
 
Max Q
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Sat May 11, 2013 4:40 am

What a great and unusual thread, there must be some more, especially international 'retaliation' stories out there ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2055
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Sat May 11, 2013 4:49 am

Laker was an example of a different form of retaliation. Incidentally, one of the inspirations / triggers for Richard Branson investment in aviation.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: Retaliation Routes

Sat May 11, 2013 6:14 am

Do airlines within an airline count? SONG, TED anyone..

And am I dreaming or did AA start SJU-ATL at some point and Delta all but let hell break loose on the route causing AA to restreat. This would have been some years back.

[Edited 2013-05-10 23:17:10]
What gets measured gets done.
 
toering
Posts: 147
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RE: Retaliation Routes

Sat May 11, 2013 6:48 am

A number of years ago G4 came to FAR with service to LAS. Very soon after NW announced FAR-LAS. NW didn't last long. Reading the thread, it looks like NW was kinda known for theses retaliation routes.

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