Gonzalo
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Wed May 15, 2013 10:16 pm

Two TAM Pilots were fired after allowing a passenger to seat in the Captain's left seat at cruise, with A/P engaged and the F/O "monitoring" the situation.

The incident was made public by the passenger, a Brazilian Singer who published pictures of himself in the left seat of the cockpit.

This people should read the report of Aeroflot 593...

More details here.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=46250b07&opt=0


Rgds.
G.
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aloges
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Wed May 15, 2013 10:26 pm

One lifetime ban from flying on TAM, coming up...    I guess that you really cannot fix stupid.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
AR385
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Wed May 15, 2013 10:31 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
This people should read the report of Aeroflot 593...

Idiots, idiots all around. I do hope the singer employs the pilots though, If I was part of that flight crew I would be really pissed.
 
Eagleboy
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Wed May 15, 2013 11:53 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
I guess that you really cannot fix stupid.

There were 3 serious mistakes here, in order of stupid........
1- Allowing a pax into the cockpit
2- Allowing a pax to sit in the left hand seat
3- Allowing that pax to take pics of themselves in the left hand seat
 
tommytoyz
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 12:09 am

Let's separate all bus drivers and car drivers from all passengers while the vehicles are in motion. Lest some crazy passenger endanger everyone on the road, not just the occupants of the subject vehicle. Let's also ban passenger carrying small aircraft that do not wall off the cockpit from any passengers. We should also ban any Taxis and motorcycles from carrying passengers unless the pilots and controls are totally separated from the passengers.

Humans can not be trusted in their judgement. We need RULES and REGULATIONS! Even when human judgement turns out to be accurate, anyone violating RULES should punished and terminated. How dare they use their discretion and judgement!
 
Gonzalo
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 4):
Humans can not be trusted in their judgement. We need RULES and REGULATIONS! Even when human judgement turns out to be accurate, anyone violating RULES should punished and terminated. How dare they use their discretion and judgement!

Humble advice, READ the report of Aeroflot 593 and then draw your conclusions about what can happen when some *COMMON SENSE RULES* are ignored. I hope after reading the report you avoid ridiculous comparisons between car/bus drivers and airline pilots.

Regards.
G.-
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tonytifao
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 3:02 am

I have brought up so many times here the lack of professionalism of SOME Brazilian pilots. I have encountered this many times while flying with TAM, GOL, WebJet
 
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TheRedBaron
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 4:24 am

I used to fly a lot in the cockpit and in the jumpseat prior to 9/11.... never they even sugested I sit on their seat.

I guess Its common sense, but since its the less common of all senses, mistakes like this will happen.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
AR385
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 4:45 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
I used to fly a lot in the cockpit and in the jumpseat prior to 9/11

I have many pilot friends, and me too, I´ve flown entire trips from gate to gate in the jumpseat. Never, ever, was I invited to seat in the crews´ seats.

The only time I did it, was on a DC-10-15 simulator at MEX. Boy did I have a good time  
 
skywaymanaz
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 5:53 am

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 3):
There were 3 serious mistakes here, in order of stupid........
1- Allowing a pax into the cockpit

Passengers in the cockpit may be up to pilot discretion in Brazil. Yes it is banned in the US, UK and probably a few other countries. Latin America hasn't had some of the problems that the US and UK have had and I know it is still allowed in many countries. Pretty sure they don't allow passengers to sit at a control station so I'd agree the rest on your list were pretty stupid.
 
peterjohns
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 6:35 am

I really find it sad and annoying what happened here. I especially feel sorry for the Co, who probably didn´t have much say before the "incident"- that being the singer sitting down- and subsequently the photos being taken.
I personally think losing their jobs is a very harsh desicion made by the company, probably only due to the media that jumped on the occasion. Was it due to an honest safety concern, or only due to the fact that it was a " celebrity"?
Would it have made the news if someone unknown would have put the photo in Facebook?

I feel for the crew ( not saying the action of the Capt. was a good move) because I used to travel a great deal in the jumpseats of various airlines. Not so much today anymore, due to now having family, and the restrictions of airlines, - but , as being an air traffic controller, I still get the occasional ride as an additional crew member, which, sometimes gives me a legal access to the FD.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 9):
Latin America hasn't had some of the problems that the US and UK have had

Which problems are you refering to? I don´t know of any problems that an interested Pax may have caused on the FD on any of my flights, other than firing up the love and admiration of flying and the aviation business in general.
That´s why we are all here, isn´t it? I bet that the reporter of the paper isn´t an A.netter....
 
skywaymanaz
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 6:42 am

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 10):
Which problems are you refering to?

Hijackings to Cuba from the US became common in the late 60's and early 70's. Banning cockpit visits was one of the preventive measures handed down by the FAA around that time. The UK used to allow it and BA encouraged cockpit visits on Concorde. After 9/11 though they banned the practice.


. . . No Billy can stay  Smile

[Edited 2013-05-15 23:44:21]
 
peterjohns
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 6:49 am

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 11):

I didn´t exactly mean Hijackers and other terrorists when I spoke of interested aviation enthusiasts wanting to visit the FD.
I believe they were never allowed on a plane...
 
AF1624
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 6:52 am

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):
I have brought up so many times here the lack of professionalism of SOME Brazilian pilots. I have encountered this many times while flying with TAM, GOL, WebJet

I would have to agree with this, having seen it in person - and having seen videos on Youtube with very sloppy checklists being done, to say the least (items being read out but forgotten, etc.)
Cheers
 
tommytoyz
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 7:12 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
what can happen when some *COMMON SENSE RULES* are ignored.

That accident happened, because the pilots were not familiar enough with the A310 systems. And why would it be ridiculous comparing it to Buses and Taxis and small planes? Either it is or it is not OK to place passengers with access to the controls of vehicles. An airliner is no different.

And let me tell you a true story:

When I was a kid, my brother and I went into the cockpit of 727. I got to sit on the lap of the Captain and my brother on the lap of the FO. After a lot of chit chat, the Captain told me to take the wheel and turned off the autopilot. He then asked me to maneuver the plane, up, down and bank. My brother then did the same. All this was 1 hour or so from Dallas at cruise altitude in a 727 full of passengers including my dad.

Apparently, in may case the crew were competent in the 727 to not get into us into danger or into the a similar problem encountered by the crew of Aeroflot 593. In my book, the Aeroflot 593 crash happened because the crew were not familiar enough with the A310 systems. They should have known what was causing the issue and how to get out of it or noticed when part of the autopilot was turned off shortly after the problems arose, IMHO. If that causes them to crash, they were not ready to fly it.

The children did not cause the accident anymore than frozen pitot tubes caused the AF447 crash.

The main reason why passengers are not allowed into the cockpit these days, is for terrorism reasons, not safety reasons that they'll bring down the plane inadvertently, anymore than bus riders will accidentally cause buses to crash.

[Edited 2013-05-16 00:17:07]
 
AR385
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 7:35 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 14):
And let me tell you a true story:

There used to be a time a few years ago in a.net when someone would share a story, an anecdote, and the usual suspects would immediately reply "I call BS on that" or some such disrespectful way to question the credibility of the anecdote and the poster. I hated that, specially when it happened to me. So I will try to be more diplomatic and just say that I have a hard time believing this:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 14):
When I was a kid, my brother and I went into the cockpit of 727. I got to sit on the lap of the Captain and my brother on the lap of the FO. After a lot of chit chat, the Captain told me to take the wheel and turned off the autopilot. He then asked me to maneuver the plane, up, down and bank. My brother then did the same. All this was 1 hour or so from Dallas at cruise altitude in a 727 full of passengers including my dad.

Growing up, I flew constantly on a Rockwell Sabreliner 40A, XA-RGS or XB, I don´t recall exactly. The pilots were employees of my father. Very professional and very nice men. And the most I ever got was to ride in the jumpseat which is essentially a small squared stool. Sitting in one of crew´s seats was never even brought up. If those pilots never let me or my brother do something similar to what you are recounting I highly dubt it would happen on a 727.

I also have never heard a story like yours. I´m not saying it´s BS, I´m just saying that if it really happened, those pilots must have been a reckless bunch. Two children sitting in the laps of both PF and PM on a 727 at cruise, and then maneuvering the thing? Hard to believe. Now, if you were a child connected to aviation by some relative back then, then I can understand.

[Edited 2013-05-16 00:40:58]
 
AF1624
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 8:27 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 15):
So I will try to be more diplomatic and just say that I have a hard time believing this

When I was 10-12 or so (so... about 13 years ago) I flew on a Varig flight from Lisbon to Rio de Janeiro on a Boeing 767.

I asked to come to the cockpit, and was invited to do so.

When we started discussing airplanes and my passion for it, I asked for a bit more explanations about the autopilot.

The captain disconnected LNAV and switched to HDG SEL, explaining to me how the HDG SEL mode worked. He followed a course 10° to the left of the original, then 20° to the right, then reconnected LNAV.

This was pretty neat.

If this happened to me, and this was only 10-15 years ago, I have little trouble believing "tommytoyz". I do have some trouble doing so. But little.
Cheers
 
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CrimsonNL
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 10:07 am

I personally don't really have an objection with letting people into the cockpit while in flight. I remember flying AMS LAX on a gorgeous KLM 742, when I was invited onto the flightdeck while overflying the USA. 3 months later 9/11 happened..

However that being said I think it's an incredibly stupid idea to have a passenger sitting in the pilot seats while in flight, and it's even more stupid to let him take pictures! I support the decision to fire the captain in this matter as its clear that he gave up his seat. I don't know about the role of the F/O in this matter, but let's assume that TAM knows best.

Martijn
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sankaps
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 10:36 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 4):
Let's separate all bus drivers and car drivers from all passengers while the vehicles are in motion.

Bus drivers are indeed separated from passengers in many cities, for example London. And even if not separated, rarely do you see a bus driver invite a passenger to sit on his seat and have full access to the controls! Even in a car, the front seat passenger does not have full access to the controls.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 14):
Either it is or it is not OK to place passengers with access to the controls of vehicles. An airliner is no different.

Exactly. Jump-seating and visit to the simple cockpit are different situations an not comparable, Here the pax was sitting in the pilot's seat while the aircraft was flying. A/P can be accidentally knocked off with disastrous consequences, as we have seen in the Aeroflot case.
 
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AirPacific747
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JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit and CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 12:18 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 17):
I personally don't really have an objection with letting people into the cockpit while in flight. I remember flying AMS LAX on a gorgeous KLM 742, when I was invited onto the flightdeck while overflying the USA. 3 months later 9/11 happened..

I was let in to the cockpit of a SK A340-300 CPH-SEA overflying Canada back in 2008. It can still happen depending on the crew  
 
sandyb123
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 12:37 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 19):
I was let in to the cockpit of a SK A340-300 CPH-SEA overflying Canada back in 2008. It can still happen depending on the crew  

I and one other were let into the cockpit of a A738 CPT-DUR (airline to remain nameless) in 2010. We were there from cruise into decent, landing, taxi and parking. I was amazed it was allowed in the first place but though the entire decent and arrival phase!?

It still happens! But the captains seat seems unacceptable.

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TheRedBaron
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 1:04 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 14):
And let me tell you a true story:

When I was a kid, my brother and I went into the cockpit of 727. I got to sit on the lap of the Captain and my brother on the lap of the FO. After a lot of chit chat, the Captain told me to take the wheel and turned off the autopilot. He then asked me to maneuver the plane, up, down and bank. My brother then did the same. All this was 1 hour or so from Dallas at cruise altitude in a 727 full of passengers including my dad.

We are living in a crazy world, full of crazy people, so what happens? we regulate everything for all those crazies out there.

So If this happened today, the Captain, F/O would be charged with pedophilia and your dad with abandonment. Crazy world !!! (then again Captain Oveour, did it in the movie LOL)

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
rc135x
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 1:14 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
READ the report of Aeroflot 593 and then draw your conclusions about what can happen when some *COMMON SENSE RULES* are ignored.

Also consider the loss of EC-135N 61-0328 on 6 May 81. In that case BOTH pilot seats were occupied by wives of crew members. One of the wives ran full nose down trim which kicked off the autopilot forcing the airplane into an abrupt, steep dive. The PIC was in the jump seat but not strapped in so he hit the ceiling and was unable to intervene. Negative Gs tripped the generators off line so it was not possible to correct the trim electrically. In just a few seconds the airplane reached an unrecoverable attitude and crashed near Walkersville, MD, killing all 20+ on board.
KC-135A, A(RT), D, E, E(RT), Q, R, EC-135A, C, G, L, RC-135S, U, V, W, X, TC-135S, W
 
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lightsaber
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 1:16 pm

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 3):
There were 3 serious mistakes here, in order of stupid........
1- Allowing a pax into the cockpit
2- Allowing a pax to sit in the left hand seat
3- Allowing that pax to take pics of themselves in the left hand seat

Three levels of stupid...

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 17):

I personally don't really have an objection with letting people into the cockpit while in flight.

Those aren't the rules. If individuals cannot follow some simple rules, they have no business being a pilot.

I'm not saying I 100% agree with the rule, but I do agree with enforcement of the rules. Either get the rules off the books or enforce them.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 18):
A/P can be accidentally knocked off with disastrous consequences, as we have seen in the Aeroflot case.

I'm still shaking my head as to what these individuals thought they could get away with. They volunteered to be the example...


Lightsaber
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Gonzalo
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 1:25 pm

I think we need to draw a line between "innocent, harmless activities" ( jump-seating of fellow airline co-workers, or even some well known passengers in some particular occasions, or some children visiting the cockpit on the ground and having a Q and A with the pilots about instruments, screens and all you want ), and actually allowing a passenger in the captain's seat.

That being said, clean cockpits are IMHO the best choice ( there is a case of a co-worker attacking a flight crew in flight, happened in a FedEx flight and they were extremely lucky to survive).

Again, COMMON SENSE should be the Golden rule.

Rgds.
G.-
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Luftfahrer
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 1:42 pm

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 3):

1- Allowing a pax into the cockpit
2- Allowing a pax to sit in the left hand seat
3- Allowing that pax to take pics of themselves in the left hand seat

1-   
2-   
3-   

Done all of this before. Only difference? The aircraft was at the gate, not in the air. Too bad they couldn't have waited until blocking on; it surely would have been a great publicity stunt with jobs being kept and the public reassured about aviation safety.
'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
 
HBGDS
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 1:51 pm

I feel old.
1978: got to sit in the copilot's seat on SR 100 ZRH-JFK
1989: ditto on AF 002 JFK-CDG

The assumption was of course that one was responsible and was not going to start pushing down the yoke. True, after 9/11, my last jump seat for landing in 2005 was just that: jump seat. I was happy, though, it is the best view!

Sigh...
 
N867DA
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 1:58 pm

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 16):
The captain disconnected LNAV and switched to HDG SEL, explaining to me how the HDG SEL mode worked. He followed a course 10° to the left of the original, then 20° to the right, then reconnected LNAV.

This was pretty neat.

If this happened to me, and this was only 10-15 years ago, I have little trouble believing "tommytoyz". I do have some trouble doing so. But little.

A KLM 767 pilot did this on a 767 doing ATL-AMS in 1998. I see no problem in inviting children to the cockpit even today--especially kids under 10. It's been 15 years and I still remember that cockpit visit. Letting the guest touch any of the controls or sit in the left seat is irresponsible especially if there are revenue passengers on board.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
YYZYYT
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 2:00 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 18):
Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 4):
Let's separate all bus drivers and car drivers from all passengers while the vehicles are in motion.

Bus drivers are indeed separated from passengers in many cities, for example London. And even if not separated, rarely do you see a bus driver invite a passenger to sit on his seat and have full access to the controls! Even in a car, the front seat passenger does not have full access to the controls.

Actually, there is a separation between drivers and passengers in many cases.

Even where bus drivers are not separated physically, they enforce a "behind the line" rule (at least in most cities where I have ridden busses), to keep the driver's space free of distraction.

As for cabs, the passenger may be allowed in the front seat (except for NYC, where there is a perceived threat and therefore a physical screen) but the driver always has space and site lines, to ensure that he can drive safely.

But, more than that, I would say that busses and taxis are not a valid comparison. Busses and taxis are not targetted by terrorists, commercial aircraft are for the many reasons discussed here and in other threads. Moreover, if an altercation breaks out on a bus, in most cases it can just roll to a stop, or bang into the car in front of it. A passenger jet in cruise, less so.

Like it or not, cockpit visits are no longer permitted in many places, not because the average passenger poses a threat but because they don't know who poses a threat... until it materializes (whether it is banned in Brazil I don't know).

And even then tommytoyz, are you actually suggesting that it is a silly and pointless rule that passengers not be allowed to take a pilot's seat during flight?
 
Sinlock
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 3:31 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 17):
I personally don't really have an objection with letting people into the cockpit while in flight.

And what happens when someone with non-terrorist intentions gets let into the flight deck?

Lets play pretend.
Mr. D.O. Guerrero (Airport 1970) can't get his briefcase bomb onboard but he knows enough to pull the Fire T-handles that are right within reach during a flight deck visit.

Or we can look at the real world.
In 1987 David Burke a fired employee with help of his work ID crashed PSA #1771.
In 1994 Auburn Calloway a current employee nearly crashed FedEx # 705 by attacking the crew with claw hammers.
 
peterjohns
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 3:49 pm

Quoting Sinlock (Reply 29):
And what happens when someone with non-terrorist intentions gets let into the flight deck?


Mr. D.O. Guerrero (Airport 1970) can't get his briefcase bomb onboard

Well that´s hardly without bad intentions then, is it !! ??
 
EZEIZA
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 4:29 pm

Quick question; why were the purser and FO fired as well? I can understand the captain being fired, but the others? I would assume it's the captain's decision, so it's his responsability.

Having said that, it was really stupid to let the guy sit there, and even more stupid to take pictures of it. However, jumpseating or a quick visit to the cockpit? I hope that never dissapears
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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reffado
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 6:03 pm

My uncle is a captain at TAM, and while I have jumpseated a few times, not even once was the idea of me sitting in his seat considered. It's just not a good idea. Simply stupid. I'm glad JJ took these reckless two out. While they may have been (and probably were) good pilots, they lacked judgement. You don't simply put 200 people's lives in the hand of someone incapacitated for such task.
 
Skisandy
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 6:11 pm

I fly TAM and GOL a lot domestic in Brazil and must say that these are through
and through professional organizations, on the same level as airlines in the US and in Europe.
So - it's doubly surprising to me hat these pilots disregarded the rules so severely.
 
atct
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 6:48 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 5):
ridiculous comparisons between car/bus drivers and airline pilots.

I was a "chauffeur", not a "bus driver". So take this for what its worth. Many times I would let one of my pax sit up front and sometimes even fly. As a kid I can remember countless times visiting the cockpit and the captain saying sit down, here's my hat etc etc. I've heard of people using pressure cookers to blow up people. Should that mean I need you in my house telling me I cant use my pressure cooker? No. People will do stupid things, this event was not one of those times. It's a shame that the crew was canned. This should be a slap on the wrist offense, nothing more.

atct
Trikes are for kids!
 
mmedford
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 6:59 pm

Quoting atct (Reply 34):
This should be a slap on the wrist offense, nothing more.

I concur, FO still had control of the airplane.
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
sankaps
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 7:28 pm

Quoting atct (Reply 34):
As a kid I can remember countless times visiting the cockpit and the captain saying sit down, here's my hat etc etc

Safety standards have changed significantly over time as we learn from how things can go wrong. Have you seen the decrease in fatality rates each decade for the last many decades? Had Aeroflot happened when you were a kid? Should we not be applauding this increase in safety standards rather than comparing to what things were like when we were kids?
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
I personally don't really have an objection with letting people into the cockpit while in flight.

Those aren't the rules.

Have you checked the Brazilian rules? What do they provide?
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Rara
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 9:20 pm

Quoting atct (Reply 34):
I was a "chauffeur", not a "bus driver". So take this for what its worth. Many times I would let one of my pax sit up front and sometimes even fly. As a kid I can remember countless times visiting the cockpit and the captain saying sit down, here's my hat etc etc. I've heard of people using pressure cookers to blow up people. Should that mean I need you in my house telling me I cant use my pressure cooker? No. People will do stupid things, this event was not one of those times. It's a shame that the crew was canned. This should be a slap on the wrist offense, nothing more.

You said it man..


This is a story that knows only losers.

- The pilots wanted to make the singer's flight a bit special, probably had some fun with him in the cockpit - now their professional careers are in shambles, their families may be in dire straits. If worst comes to worst, the pilots are looking ahead at a lifetime of blaming themselves for one short moment of stupidity.
- The FA's only fault was being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Bad times ahead for them as well, but they should have better hope of finding employment again than the pilots.
- If the singer has any heart, he's going to blame himself forever for what happened due to his lack of judgement in publishing the photos.
- Even the decision-makers at the company will probably feel a sting of guilt about their decision. If they're old enough, chances are they've been in a pilot's seat during cruise as well.

There is a certain tragic in this story's senselessness. Nobody meant any harm, everything just sort of happened, and at the end several peoples' lifes are in shambles.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 9:36 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 21):
So If this happened today, the Captain, F/O would be charged with pedophilia and your dad with abandonment.

I agree. We are becoming dehumanized and followers of regulations. In my case, the Captain was very near retirement and he thought is very interesting that he had the same birthday as my brother. He was a Texan character. I know many people would have a hard time believing what happened. I don't blame them.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 28):
And even then tommytoyz, are you actually suggesting that it is a silly and pointless rule that passengers not be allowed to take a pilot's seat during flight?

No, but it's not a fireable offense, given all the circumstances known (or not known) IMHO. Maybe the Singer has some flight experience. Maybe he is a private pilot.....none of this has even been discussed. Certainly the pilots felt he was not a person with a death wish or crazy. Either the pilots are qualified or they are not. In the Aeroflot case, IMHO, the pilots should not have been flying the A310 to begin with.

To people who applaud the JJ firing, I suggest that next time you violate the speed limit, you hand in your license, since you are endangering the public. Dont' dare trust your judgement. Rules are rules!

And I merely used buses as an example that if we can trust bus passengers not to go crazy and lunge at the wheel for example, we can trust airplane passengers to do the same.

Quoting atct (Reply 34):
This should be a slap on the wrist offense, nothing more.

Totally agree. In any case, not a fireable offense.
 
sankaps
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 38):
There is a certain tragic in this story's senselessness. Nobody meant any harm, everything just sort of happened, and at the end several peoples' lifes are in shambles.

Many preventable accidents have happened when no one meant any harm. Margins for error and "harmless fun" are getting smaller and smaller with today's crowded airways and airports, while at the same time expectations of safety is getting higher.

The industry has managed to deliver much higher safety standards and lower accident and fatality rates because they no longer accept what may have been acceptable (but not good practice from a safety perspective) in the past.

Yes, it is sad that so many careers are in shambles, but they displayed extremely poor judgment on many levels. I do feel for the cabin crew though, don't know why they are being punished as well.

[Edited 2013-05-16 14:46:41]
 
EZEIZA
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 9:57 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 40):
Yes, it is sad that so many careers are in shambles, but they displayed extremely poor judgment on many levels. I do feel for the cabin crew though, don't know why they are being punished as well.

I still fail to understand why the first officer and the purser got fired. It's not their responsability, it's the captain that has the final call on who gets into the cockpit.

rgds
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Gonzalo
Topic Author
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 10:16 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 39):
it's not a fireable offense

We don't know that. I have very clear lists of "DO" and "DON'T DO" in my contract. JJ pilots probably have some sort of list with things that are not allowed to do.



Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 39):
Maybe the Singer has some flight experience. Maybe he is a private pilot

Unless he was a Singer AND an A320 type rated pilot, with a JJ ID Card, he has no right to be in that seat at cruise. Is very simple.


Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 39):
Certainly the pilots felt he was not a person with a death wish or crazy.

Ok let's play. Would you accept this explanation from the airline if you lost a loved one in an accident ? :

" Oh, sorry Mr. Tommy, we had the bad luck of having a football player taking some pics in the left seat when the aircraft encountered that damn clear air turbulence... sadly our captain's head hit the roof of the cockpit, passed out and also nocked out the first officer while falling over him.... and more sadly, that useless football player had not a clue about stall recovery procedures.... but he was not a person with a death wish or crazy... we really really sorry for your loss".

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 39):
To people who applaud the JJ firing, I suggest that next time you violate the speed limit, you hand in your license, since you are endangering the public. Dont' dare trust your judgement. Rules are rules!

Again, my 1,5 t car wildly running at 80 mph crashing against a school bus would maybe kill me and a couple of kids.
A 75 t Airbus 320 falling at M 0.70 from the sky would surely kill all the 150+ on board and everyone close to the impact point in the ground. Why do you insist in this ridiculous comparisons ?



Quoting sankaps (Reply 40):
The industry has managed to deliver much higher safety standards and lower accident and fatality rates because they no longer accept what may have been acceptable (but not good practice from a safety perspective) in the past.

  
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
asctty
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 10:23 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 41):

I still fail to understand why the first officer and the purser got fired. It's not their responsibility, it's the captain that has the final call on who gets into the cockpit.

I can understand with the F/O got fired. The F/O is there to provide a second opinion to whatever the Captain decides to do with his aircraft, particularly if the F/O considers the safety of the aircraft and PAX are at risk. Therefore he/she should have advised that the visitor to the cockpit should be refused.
As for the purser, whoever this was simply asked if the singer could visit the cockpit. Perhaps the rule is 'do not ask' but that is irrelevant as the decision lies with the Captain.
Regardless, if celebrities want special treatment from other PAX they should travel by charter flight rather than regular airlines.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Thu May 16, 2013 11:40 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 42):
....would maybe kill me and a couple of kids.....Why do you insist in this ridiculous comparisons ?

Are 150 passenger deaths more important than dead school children? Your basis on the number of dead is, to me, ridiculous. IMHO, it's hypocritical to go around and say you can violate safety rules based on your judgement, but when others do the same, it's horrible. The number of possible dead is irrelevant.

[Edited 2013-05-16 16:41:29]
 
EZEIZA
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Fri May 17, 2013 12:02 am

Quoting asctty (Reply 43):
I can understand with the F/O got fired. The F/O is there to provide a second opinion to whatever the Captain decides to do with his aircraft, particularly if the F/O considers the safety of the aircraft and PAX are at risk

Fair enough, but it has happened in the past, and I would assume it still happens, that some captains are rather tough (being polite here...) and impose fear on their F/O's, so they to shut up and never second guess the call made by the captain. What if the F/O does provide a second opinion and gets a bad review by the captain once they land?

rgds
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
AR385
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Fri May 17, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 45):
so they to shut up and never second guess the call made by the captain. What if the F/O does provide a second opinion and gets a bad review by the captain once they land?

Such captains have no place in modern cockpits and any respectable airline, like JJ for example, has CRM programs and training that would never allow such a personality to reach captaincy. Years of CRM have weeded them out. This crew, Captain and FO became groupies and are now paying the consequences. Deservedly, too.
 
sankaps
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Fri May 17, 2013 5:49 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 39):
To people who applaud the JJ firing, I suggest that next time you violate the speed limit, you hand in your license, since you are endangering the public. Dont' dare trust your judgement. Rules are rules!

You are really now making ridiculous arguments. Exceeding the speed limit in a car is similar to an overspeed landing, or exceeding approach speed, for an aircraft. Incidents or deviations such as this are tracked and remedial training / coaching provided to the pilots. Their licenses are not taken away.

Handing over your seat to a non-pilot while the aircraft is in motion is similar to putting your car in cruise control and allowing a non-licensed person to get behind the wheel. An offense which will definitely result in your license being revoked, and potentially criminal negligence charges being filed if the driver is caught doing this.
 
cuban8
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Fri May 17, 2013 9:09 am

This is a major overreaction by the company which was probably influenced by all the media attention this event got. I agree that the crew made a mistake by letting the singer take a photo in the left seat during flight, but if we are talking flight safety, there are far more important issues to take care of then a singer having his photo in a crew seat.

I'm a bit sad this didn't happen in a company like Ryanair. Mike O'leary would probably have paid the captain a bonus for all the free publicity given in the newspapers.
When business goes to hell, you get rid of three things. Your private jet, your yacht and your mistress..........and most importantly in that order.
~ Russian Billionaire ~
 
atct
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RE: JJ A320 Pilots Fired After Allowing Pax In Cockpit And CPT Seat

Fri May 17, 2013 8:29 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 42):
Why do you insist in this ridiculous comparisons ?

I do not believe this is a ridiculous comparison. I was a glorified chauffeur. People that fly 737's and the like are glorified bus drivers. We have higher responsibility and more complex systems, but my King Air was still a tool used to take executives from place to place. A limo, as well, takes executives from place to place. The glory days of "pilots are godlike" are over. I wish it wasn't true, but it is. Do I think we are / should be paid for the extra knowledge, you bet. I don't know the rules of the Brazilian aviation system other than that which applies to my current position, and that is very limited. I still don't agree with them being fired solely for this offense.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 47):
You are really now making ridiculous arguments. Exceeding the speed limit in a car is similar to an overspeed landing, or exceeding approach speed, for an aircraft. Incidents or deviations such as this are tracked and remedial training / coaching provided to the pilots. Their licenses are not taken away.

I have been, from a regulatory standpoint, involved in numerous occasions like those you stated and yes, licenses have been removed. This then causes the pilot to lose their job. What you just stated "Coaching / Remedial Training" is what we call in the industry a "Slap on the wrist." I believe this is what should have happened to the pilots above.
Trikes are for kids!