factsonly
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Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 3:18 pm

Surprising news from James Hogan CEO of ETIHAD on 21 May 2013 at a joint KL/EY news conference in AMS.

Apparently, he stated that advance plans exist for Jet Airways to move its scissor hub from BRU to AMS, to build on AMS connectivity.

It appears that the new shareholder has a big say in decisions in India.

He also revealed that EY wishes to enter a cooperation with DL and that the new EY/KL cooperation has resulted in tens of thousands booking to the various codeshare destinations. But EY does not wish to join SKYTEAM.

regretfully text in Dutch only:

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nl-NL..._Airways_van_Brussel_naar_Schiphol

It does state in small print .....plans are still to be submitted to the Jet Airways Board. So James Hogan must be confident to make it public.

[Edited 2013-05-21 08:40:42]
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 3:23 pm

Wowowowwowowowowowowwow. This is pretty big. Then again, it also makes sense. BRU is basically a dead-end for Jet Airways in terms of value-added for a scissor hub.

Quoting factsonly (Thread starter):
He also revealed that EY wishes to enter a cooperation with DL and that the new EY/KL cooperation has resulted in tens of thousands booking to the various codeshare destinations. But EY does not wish to join SKYTEAM.

Totally makes sense. Etihad has the upper hand here. They can cozy up with their preferred picks within SkyTeam and basically have DL/AF/KL eat out of their hands while also maintaining a "hands-off, noncommittal" approach to the rest of SkyTeam with minimal backlash.

Aren't alliance shifts fun to watch!?
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runway23
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 1):
Totally makes sense. Etihad has the upper hand here. They can cozy up with their preferred picks within SkyTeam and basically have DL/AF/KL eat out of their hands while also maintaining a "hands-off, noncommittal" approach to the rest of SkyTeam with minimal backlash.

Aren't alliance shifts fun to watch!?

The next step is EY stopping their partnership with AA, AB potentially leaving oneworld sooner than later.

After that, potentially (weirder things have happened), EK continues to partner with other oneworld carriers, including AA. Long term, one could potentially end up with EY in skyteam and EK/QR in oneworld. It would IMHO be the correct retribution to Star and LH for all their bashing of Gulf carriers.
 
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Alsatian
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 3:36 pm

AMS is absolutely logical as it is the #1 airport to connect with all the UK primary and secondary cities. That is the key.
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FlyingHollander
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 3:49 pm

Finally, I've been waiting for this for ages! AMS really needs to increase its market share in India. Currently KL serves DEL and DL serves BOM, that's it. Even though the other routes to BRU were axed I'm confident that these will come back to AMS if the move materializes.
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777way
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 4:06 pm

Any update on EY and JAT Airways courtship?
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 4:30 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 2):
The next step is EY stopping their partnership with AA, AB potentially leaving oneworld sooner than later.

It really could go either way. Bear in mind that Etihad is juggling several carriers and doesn't necessarily mandate universal policy across the board. airberlin has definitely reported noticeable gains from its codeshare relationships with oneworld in terms of growth in passenger numbers, which is worth waiting out to see if that in turn delivers stronger YoY revenue growth (which it badly needs).
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 4):
Finally, I've been waiting for this for ages! AMS really needs to increase its market share in India. Currently KL serves DEL and DL serves BOM, that's it. Even though the other routes to BRU were axed I'm confident that these will come back to AMS if the move materializes.

Agreed, I guess KLM had their reasons for pulling HYD, but I would have used the flight quite a few times in the past few years, had it existed. I find none of the alternatives particularly appealing. The DL/9W combi requires a night in hotel in Mumbai. The timings of the EK return flight are simply awful. I don't like the idea of backtracking on BA through LHR. Most of the times I thus flew a combi of KL/6E. But then again you face the transfer between terminals in Delhi in a rickety old city bus with malfunctioning doors.....

Anyway, please bring a nonstop AMS-HYD back!!!!!!
 
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 5:56 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 2):
Long term, one could potentially end up with EY in skyteam
EY's CEO keeps repeating his airline will not join any alliance since it does not need to. As a matter of fact, with its multiple partnerships and investments, EY is creating an alliance of its own that transcends the current "triopoly".



Quoting runway23 (Reply 2):
It would IMHO be the correct retribution to Star and LH for all their bashing of Gulf carriers.

I am under the impression that despite its partnership with EY, AF/KL CEO is not short of bashing the ME3 as well.



Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 4):
AMS really needs to increase its market share in India. Currently KL serves DEL and DL serves BOM, that's it.

Agreed. I believe KL has the potential to serve more destinations in India, possibly BOM with its own metal and a third destination (HYD, CCU or MAA are under served from Europe). I am not sure the bilateral allows this.

[Edited 2013-05-21 10:57:28]
 
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 1):
They can cozy up with their preferred picks within SkyTeam and basically have DL/AF/KL eat out of their hands while also maintaining a "hands-off, noncommittal" approach to the rest of SkyTeam with minimal backlash.

Interesting. They can that way serve SkyTeam hubs or SkyTeam-served airports with the help with DL, AF and KL, and/or through any other airline that happens to be an EY ally but not a SkyTeam member that serves those airports too. It is indeed very interesting how airlines that are members of alliances are now adapting to a world of bilateral or multilateral relationships that circumvent or go across alliances.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 2):
AB potentially leaving oneworld sooner than later.

Who knows. It seems AB has developed a good relationship with AA. I don't know how close BA and AB are, but I would imagine that it'd be interesting for BA to have an ally in Germany; therefore, it might be in the best interest of some oneworld carriers to keep AB in the fold. Then again, AF/KL could push to have AB switch. Let's see how this plays out.

Quoting Alsatian (Reply 3):
AMS is absolutely logical as it is the #1 airport to connect with all the UK primary and secondary cities. That is the key.

Good point. That did not occur to me at first until I saw your comment. AMS is also logical for connections to certain destinations in Norway, Sweden, etc. Of course this might not be as important as having good connectivity to the UK market, but it is another plus.
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globalflyer
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 9:13 pm

I wonder if with these new partnerships that EY and AF/KL and EY and DL would be able to gain status miles and lounge access without being a SkyTeam member. It would be a great bebfit to the passengers. I would favour this if EY does not join an alliance then at least we can get some benefits. Any ideas? I am not sure how the current EY partnerships work today?
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 9:47 pm

Does the India-Netherlands bilateral give Indian carriers 5th freedom rights beyond AMS to the U.S. and Canada?
 
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 10:32 pm

This is very sad!! I was hoping that 9W would join Star but it is Not looking good!! A year ago it was a sure thing that QR and 9W would join *A. However, QR is going to OW and 9W is warming up to ST.


EY will probably end its relationship with AA and pull AB out of OW.
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 12):
This is very sad!! I was hoping that 9W would join Star but it is Not looking good!! A year ago it was a sure thing that QR and 9W would join *A. However, QR is going to OW and 9W is warming up to ST.

One of the best-informed posters here indicated that 9W approached LH first, but LH was asking for too much. If its true, then LH and *A have only themselves to blame. LH really seems to have fluffed its lines in India.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
Does the India-Netherlands bilateral give Indian carriers 5th freedom rights beyond AMS to the U.S. and Canada?

Does AMS really have all that much to offer 9W on TATL that BRU doesn't? Most of the posters have noted that the AMS card will help 9W tap into the UK and other points in Europe. I would suspect that North America would be better served from AUH, courtesy of the latter's excellent connectivity to Indian cities (20-odd cities according to some of the PR stuff coming out).

Cant say I'm entirely convinced that AMS makes sense. I don't really buy the idea of another EU hub for 9W.
 
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Tue May 21, 2013 11:46 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
Cant say I'm entirely convinced that AMS makes sense. I don't really buy the idea of another EU hub for 9W.

Why not? If they feed into DL and KL flights to various points in the US and Canada, that's very useful.....between them, DL and KL have much more coverage in N. America than anything that BRU has to offer.....9W can operate a couple of terminating flights to AMS in addition to one's that proceed on to EWR, YYZ and/or other destinations......
 
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 3:51 am

I was so floored by this announcement that I went seeking other sources and found them:
http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...-airways-plans-an-amsterdam-switch

They say the same thing. This move makes incredible sense and yet I'm in 'enthusiast shock' to actually see an airline being run like a business!   

Rumors of hubs in Paris and Berlin too:
http://www.travelbizmonitor.com/jet-...s-in-amsterdam-berlin--paris-20420

I believe Paris. AF must change their tune and it looks like EY will be the conductor.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 1):
Wowowowwowowowowowowwow. This is pretty big. Then again, it also makes sense. BRU is basically a dead-end for Jet Airways in terms of value-added for a scissor hub.

   I had the same impression hearing this news. But doesn't it just make sense?

With *A, the best 9W could do is MUC. Now we're looking at AMS, CDG, BER, and I would bet some tie up with VS at LHR in the future. Wow is right...

Quoting runway23 (Reply 2):
The next step is EY stopping their partnership with AA, AB potentially leaving oneworld sooner than later.

Understatement. I'm not sure what has happened, but all of the sudden EY is coordinating Skyteam strategy in a big way. My jaw is on the ground at the magnitude of the strategy shift, but this means AB is 95% certain to leave OneWorld.

Anyone who has read prior posts of mine will know I have had an opinion change. Well... new facts and new opinions. EY has come up with a strategy for Skyteam that at first glance will be a HUGE winner for all participants.

My question is when does VS join Skyteam? We are witnessing a major shift in that alliance and I for one did not see it a year ago. But the shift is now here and it will be fun to witness.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
Does AMS really have all that much to offer 9W on TATL that BRU doesn't?

Yes. Instead of weak feed depending on a scissor hub, they will have far better feed *and* excellent connections with KL. This is a big win/win move for both.

This is a game changer. Obviously EY has been laying the groundwork for years.

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 12):

This is very sad!! I was hoping that 9W would join Star but it is Not looking good!! A year ago it was a sure thing that QR and 9W would join *A. However, QR is going to OW and 9W is warming up to ST.


EY will probably end its relationship with AA and pull AB out of OW.

Why sad? This is an amazing strategic move. Far better than what I thought would have been possible for 9W a year ago. This is like watching a chessmaster pull an amazing move that no one saw until the pieces started falling... The connectivity change for 9W is the difference between life and death for them.

Between China and India Skyteam just took themselves from 'also ran' to a contender in the alliances.

Let's look on the bright side. This will open up the doors for AI and *A.    (Note: I do not think *A will take them in case the humor was too subtle.)

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
One of the best-informed posters here indicated that 9W approached LH first, but LH was asking for too much. If its true, then LH and *A have only themselves to blame. LH really seems to have fluffed its lines in India.

If some executives at LH are not being informed to find a new position, then LH has their head in the sand. This was a HUGE strategic blunder on their part.

A year ago, this change wouldn't have made sense. But with the shocking (to me) increase in India air service rights to/from AUH *and* a tie up with Skyteam, the game has changed. Combine this with China Airlines, Xiamen, and China Eastern and we're talking some interesting changes coming...

This also helps EY. I think it is now obvious they will become the large mid-east hub for Skyteam.

I had almost written off EY vs. EK/QR. Before they were always an 'also ran.' Now?   

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DeltaB717
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 6:27 am

Quoting runway23 (Reply 2):
The next step is EY stopping their partnership with AA, AB potentially leaving oneworld sooner than later.

In a similar vein, I wonder what the EY / 9W partnership might mean for the QF / 9W codeshare? Would EY entertain part of its growing empire playing with a major partner of EK?
 
factsonly
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 6:41 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
Does AMS really have all that much to offer 9W on TATL that BRU doesn't? Most of the posters have noted that the AMS card will help 9W tap into the UK and other points in Europe. I would suspect that North America would be better served from AUH, courtesy of the latter's excellent connectivity to Indian cities (20-odd cities according to some of the PR stuff coming out).

Cant say I'm entirely convinced that AMS makes sense. I don't really buy the idea of another EU hub for 9W.

It looks as if EY's strategy is to develop two distinct hubs for Indian traffic in cooperation with 9W:

- AUH & AMS

1. AUH to connect all (smaller) Indian destinations with the few large North American cities that can be served non-stop from AUH.

2. AMS to connect all (larger) Indian destinations with smaller North American destinations not served from AUH.

This will allow the EY/9W airlines to offer more Transatlantic choice than EK ever will using A380s to North America.


So lets have a closer look at this strategy:

1. HUB ABU DHABI:
- 9W will operate many B737s from smaller Indian places to feed the AUH hub (EK can't do that without help.)
- EY will operate larger capacity aircraft to bigger Indian cities, as well as to North America.

2. HUB AMSTERDAM:
- 9W will copy EY and codeshare with KL/DL over AMS to/from Europe and beyond..
- 9W will operate A330/B777 on its scissor hub routes from DEL, BOM, MAA, HYD with codeshare KL, DL.
- 9W will continue beyond AMS to JFK, EWR, YYZ expanding/replacing existing DL/KL flights on these routes.
- 9W will add code to DL/KL to SEA, PDX, YVR, YYC, SFO, LAX, MSP, DTW, IAH, IAD, ATL, BOS, YMX i.e. destinations not served by 9W or EY
- 9W will add its code to the vast European regional network of KL - UK, Germany, Scandinavia, etc.....
- 9W will add its code to the vast domestic USA operation of DL.
- DL/KL will add 9W code on AMS-DEL/BOM-AMS flights.
- KL & DL add their code to domestic Indian flights - already in place in some cases.

Perhaps it is starting to make some sense after all.
 
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 7:13 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
- 9W will continue beyond AMS to JFK, EWR, YYZ expanding/replacing existing DL/KL flights on these routes.

What motivation would DL/KL have to replace flying done under their JV with a codeshare flown on the metal of a non-JV/non-alliance partner?
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 7:36 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):
Any update on EY and JAT Airways courtship?

Apparently so... http://exyuaviation.blogspot.ae/2013.../jat-takeover-offer-by-sunday.html
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 7:55 am

Something that nobody has mentioned yet is that the UAE-NL bilaterals are maxed out. By transferring some AMS-India traffic over to 9W, EY could free up some open space on their own aircraft.
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 7:58 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
One of the best-informed posters here indicated that 9W approached LH first, but LH was asking for too much. If its true, then LH and *A have only themselves to blame. LH really seems to have fluffed its lines in India.

Or this was LH's response to India not allowing them to use A380. Maybe LH just didn't have much reason to be cordial and welcoming to 9W.
 
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 8:59 am

If this comes to fruition (especially the HYD link for me out of AMS), it will be fantastic! I have long been hoping that SkyTeam would pick up 9W (and the Indian market) and this seems like a huge step in the right direction. With the Chinese carriers, GA coming online, and possibly this deal with 9W (not withstanding the cooperation with EY on the Kangaroo route), SkyTeam is incredibly well positioned.

From the posted article, I also found this to be incredible if true, "Luchtvaartnieuws reports that KLM CEO Peter Hartman claims that in only four months the two carriers had already booked an additional 10,000 passengers under this agreement"

If these numbers are accurate and continue to grow with additional partnerships with AB and 9W, AFKL might have found a key to digging itself out of its current financial hole. Add into all of this possible cooperation with VS and DL, and I am over the moon!

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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 9:35 am

As far as BRU and SN are concerned I don't think this will be very problematic, quite the contrary.

BRU had become short of longhaul gates in the peak morning hours and had to shorten the Schengen terminal in the morning to allow for SN's Africa fleet to dock there instead.

9W had promised up to 12 B77W's per day coming from half a dozen points in India to half a dozen points in North America, eventually that was reduced from the initial 6 to about 4 smaller jets.

SN is growing its US offering and is establishing itself as the de facto home carrier for that traffic, AA is out, DL won't last, and 9W is now out as well. All the better for SN's codeshare service with AC on YYZ, maybe this will help with splitting up the YYZ and YUL operation between AC and SN.

EY's situation at BRU won't change, they'll cater for traffic as they do and try to funnel India traffic via AUH.

SN can count on LH to offer the India points and could start the route on its own if deemed useful.
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factsonly
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 9:55 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
What motivation would DL/KL have to replace flying done under their JV with a codeshare flown on the metal of a non-JV/non-alliance partner?

It has been reported in the past that the direct SKYTEAM-9W discussions included 9W joining the Transatlantic JV and thus 9W could operate AMS-USA sectors or frequencies on behalf of DL/KL/AF/AZ.

We don't know yet whether this is part of these latest discussions, but it is a distinct possibility.
 
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 10:12 am

In my book, DL/AF/KL have a relatively poor offering from the SFO area to India. Hopefully, EY's move will develop into a scenario where either SFO-AUH nonstop service would be provided with connections onward, or 9W would be able to fly SFO-AMS more cheaply than DL/KL with onward connections to places like BLR and HYD. This same scenario may even play out in SEA, although in that market, DL/AF/AZ do not have as many challenges. Any additional flying to BLR/HYD could only benefit the DL/AF/KL, but the schedules have to be there at the right price. Anything less will not help them against LH/UA, and even then there would be marketing hurdles to jump (frequent flyer loyalty, brand recognition, product acceptance, etc.)
 
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 12:31 pm

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 23):
SN is growing its US offering and is establishing itself as the de facto home carrier for that traffic, AA is out, DL won't last, and 9W is now out as well.

What makes you think DL won't last on ATL-BRU and JFK-BRU? I don't see either of those going anywhere in the near future. DL has shown it is willing to dump or seasonally cut transatlantic routes to destinations with mostly VFR and leisure traffic, but Brussels is a key business market in Europe and there is no indication that I'm aware of that either route is doing poorly. Especially since AA and 9W left JFK-BRU.
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 12:58 pm

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 23):
DL won't last,

DL has hung on to double daily BRU service for years now, even when they could only support a 757 between JFK and BRU. Since then, DL's performance on JFK-BRU has improved quite a bit, especially with AA and 9W's exit from JFK-BRU, and with the introduction of the new product on the 767 on the route.
 
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 1:05 pm

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 16):
Would EY entertain part of its growing empire playing with a major partner of EK?
Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
It looks as if EY's strategy is to develop two distinct hubs for Indian traffic in cooperation with 9W:

- AUH & AMS

1. AUH to connect all (smaller) Indian destinations with the few large North American cities that can be served non-stop from AUH.

2. AMS to connect all (larger) Indian destinations with smaller North American destinations not served from AUH.

It makes much more sense when you realize the incentive for KL/AF to help feed EY. Combine this with the Chinese airlines at AUH, and we'll see fast growth.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
Perhaps it is starting to make some sense after all.

That it does. Before EY's investments seemed along the lines of QR's. Semi-strategic. Now EY looks to have invested very well.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
What motivation would DL/KL have to replace flying done under their JV with a codeshare flown on the metal of a non-JV/non-alliance partner?

None. It is the added destinations that DL/KL will happily help fill. They will also be motivated to fly from secondary European cities to AUH. If they don't, then AB will do it for them.

This will make it *far* easier for EY to expand European bilaterals than EK...   

Lightsaber
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 1:08 pm

You guys are right, DL might last, just because of their sheer size, but I still think SN+UA will eventually command the vast majority of the market. DL has more interest in nearby AMS (KL), CDG (AF) and LHR (VS) so I'm not sure they'd keep the NYC run forever, especially with increasing pressure from the SN+UA combo.

Who would have thought of AA leaving JFK-BRU?
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 1:23 pm

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 29):
Who would have thought of AA leaving JFK-BRU?

And ORD-BRU !!

It seems that UA is really really doing well at the moment in BRU. Most of the time their three BRU services are FULL in all proposed classes...

But anyway, we've never seen such a saga: Since how long 9W must decide on an alliance ? Almost 6 years now. Amazing to realize that none of the Indian Airlines have since joined any of the three major alliances...
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factsonly
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Sorry, more developments today.....

KLM announces a codeshare agreement with PEGASUS of Turkey.

KLM's strategy is starting to look similar to EY..build codeshare business over your hub with every airline flying! Particularly if this helps compete with new competitors (TK in this case).

QUOTE:

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines and Pegasus Airlines announced today that they have signed a code share agreement effective for sales May 27th and for travel June 3rd, 2013. Passengers will benefit from quick and easy transfers between Pegasus flights and KLM flights through Amsterdam Airport Schiphol, Istanbul Sabiha Gökçen airport and Izmir Adnan Menderes Airport.

http://nieuws.klm.com/klm-en-pegasus...kenen-codesharing-overeenkomst-en/
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 3:38 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
Rumors of hubs in Paris and Berlin too:

Yes, some more details in the below linked story.

But basically 9W says it will focus on Etihad's network and ties with other carriers and that Amsterdam, Berlin, and Paris are the natural European connection points for the airline.

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/109...erlin-paris-for-international-hubs

=
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factsonly
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 3:59 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
But basically 9W says it will focus on Etihad's network and ties with other carriers and that Amsterdam, Berlin, and Paris are the natural European connection points for the airline.

Well.........they happen to be the main AF/KL/AB hubs .....of EY's new partners!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 5:02 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
None. It is the added destinations that DL/KL will happily help fill. They will also be motivated to fly from secondary European cities to AUH. If they don't, then AB will do it for them.

That makes more sense. I remember 8 or 9 years ago when the last US-India bilateral was signed, it allowed for US airlines to hub in Europe for onward connections to India, I wonder if the same ability exists to the UAE, so that DL could fly some of that traffic on their own metal.
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blueflyer
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 6:03 pm

Reading everything that has been linked to so far, I can't tell whether the plan is to move the scissor hub from BRU to AMS or to end the scissor hub operation altogether and replace it with exchange hubs in AMS and one additional city where Jet uses code-shares to reach their ultimate destinations. Frankly, the latter seems more likely than the former. At the time the scissor hub was set up, Jet did not have the partnerships it does now and flying the entire route on its own metal was the only option, but now that it is no longer the case, I am not sure that it makes sense to continue with a scissor hub.

Since a scissor hub probably requires new traffic rights, at least from the Netherlands (the US shouldn't be a problem), Jet would need the support of KLM to give it some guarantee of success, but is it really likely to be forthcoming if this creates additional competition on TATL flights? Yes, a joint-venture is possible, but far from certain, and KLM would be taking a big risk to support new rights now for a possible pay-off later, unless Jet or Etihad can somehow offer something else in exchange.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 24):
It has been reported in the past that the direct SKYTEAM-9W discussions included 9W joining the Transatlantic JV and thus 9W could operate AMS-USA sectors or frequencies on behalf of DL/KL/AF/AZ.

I'm not convinced Jet can operate transatlantic flights out of AMS at a lower cost. For the single highest expense, fuel, KLM has the volume to negotiate better deals than Jet. Regarding labor cost, the lower salary comes with a higher trip cost, having to feed and house crews both in AMS and North America.

In addition, the joint-venture would have to be in place on day one to make sense. Other carriers have done it, but it is by no mean guaranteed.

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 23):
DL won't last

Despite the clear dominance of United in the Belgian market, Delta has been able to hold on to some juicy corporate contracts and isn't going anywhere.

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 23):
BRU had become short of longhaul gates in the peak morning hours and had to shorten the Schengen terminal in the morning to allow for SN's Africa fleet to dock there instead.

If this means I won't have to be climbing up the stairs to get into a 767 under cold winter rain anymore, I'll be happy.

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 29):
Who would have thought of AA leaving JFK-BRU?

Unlike Delta, American relied heavily on its European/African code-shares with Brussels to make BRU work, not just O/D. I will not say the writing was on the wall then, but once Brussels announced they would join Star, a massive American drawdown in BRU became a distinct possibility, with a withdrawal from JFK always more likely than from ORD.

[Edited 2013-05-22 11:15:24]
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coronado
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 6:15 pm

It will be interesting to see how fast an ATL-AUH or even a DTW-AUH gets rolled out, and for how much longer Delta will serve DXB from ATL.
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LJ
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 6:42 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 36):

Since a scissor hub probably requires new traffic rights, at least from the Netherlands (the US shouldn't be a problem)

Only if the need them for AMS-US. No Indian airline is flying between AMS and DEL/BOM thus 9W can use the rights.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
- DL/KL will add 9W code on AMS-DEL/BOM-AMS flights.

AFAIK KL doesn't have enough traffic rights to put a KL code on additional flights between AMS and DEL/BOM.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 36):
Yes, a joint-venture is possible, but far from certain, and KLM would be taking a big risk to support new rights now for a possible pay-off later, unless Jet or Etihad can somehow offer something else in exchange.

AF/DL/KL already offered 9W to enter their TATL joint venture if they would move to Skyteam. That offer is probably still on the table.
 
factsonly
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 8:19 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 38):
AFAIK KL doesn't have enough traffic rights to put a KL code on additional flights between AMS and DEL/BOM.


What is referred to here is that 9W will add its code to existing DL & KL flights AMS-BOM/DEL.

In addition KLM operated AMS-HYD in the past on top of its daily AMS-DEL flights, as the India-NL bilateral permits each nation to operate 14 frequencies.

DL is operating AMS-BOM under the USA-India & USA-NL bilaterals. The KL codeshare on this route is permitted under the India-NL bilateral.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 10:11 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
Does AMS really have all that much to offer 9W on TATL that BRU doesn't?

AMS has a much larger network of potential connecting destinations than BRU, and an excellent reputation as an efficient, user-friendly hub.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Wed May 22, 2013 11:13 pm

To the many posters who responded to my musings about AMS: Thanks, that was informative. The general consensus seem to be that 9W will benefit from KL/DL feed there. I vaguely remember reading about an AF/EY partnership of sorts, but I didn't realise it would include a strategic partnership. If 9W will, in fact, become a part of the TATL JV, then I have to agree - its a great idea for 9W. I certainly hope they'll continue to operate the TATL flights on their own metal.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):

AMS has a much larger network of potential connecting destinations than BRU, and an excellent reputation as an efficient, user-friendly hub.

AMS used to be my favorite hub, but thanks to 9W and TK, I haven't been there in over 5 years. Looks like 9W will take me back. I expect this signals the end of 9Ws relationship with TK (and other *A carriers), which is a pity. 9W and KL have had a partnership of sorts for as long as I can remember (KL International feed connecting to Indian domestic long before 9W went international).

Quoting Jalap (Reply 21):
Or this was LH's response to India not allowing them to use A380. Maybe LH just didn't have much reason to be cordial and welcoming to 9W.

Ever heard the phrase: "Cutting one's nose to spite one's face"? LH needs India more than India needs LH. When the entire AI-*A fiasco took place, LH openly stated it wanted 9W in *A. So much so that it managed to anger the Indian Government just enough to make the Govt threaten to terminate LX operations in India. LH has spent a lot of time cultivating India. It now appears to be losing ground not just to EK, but to EY as well. I would rate losing 9W as a pretty big setback for LH's strategy for India. Guess they got too greedy.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 36):
Since a scissor hub probably requires new traffic rights, at least from the Netherlands (the US shouldn't be a problem), Jet would need the support of KLM to give it some guarantee of success, but is it really likely to be forthcoming if this creates additional competition on TATL flights? Yes, a joint-venture is possible, but far from certain, and KLM would be taking a big risk to support new rights now for a possible pay-off later, unless Jet or Etihad can somehow offer something else in exchange.

But then again, one could argue that with new connectivity, they might actually stimulate more traffic from South Asia. I doubt 9W is going to make inroads against DL and KL. To put it in perspective, one of my colleagues in Canada wanted the company to pay nearly $8,000 to fly him on AC from YYZ to BRU, when 9W was selling J for $4,500. He simply hadn't heard of 9W and couldn't understand how an Indian carrier could compete with North America's best airline (North American insularity in a nutshell). Outside the South Asian population, I doubt anyone knows anything about 9W in Canada. I expect the same applies to Europe. And its not just 9W - someone I know who routinely flies TS to Europe couldn't understand why I would choose TK over AC/LH to India. Errr...   I tried to explained the old dictum : Hospitality gets better as you go east.

9Ws TATL success is likely going to built purely on traffic to/from India, and I think that traffic is growing fast enough to not put overcapacity pressure on KL/DL.
 
airDFW
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Thu May 23, 2013 1:27 am

Could DL have gotten more if it had invested the money in 9W instead of VS? I think both AI and 9W spent valuable time chasing Star dream instead of building the alliances strategically.
 
SCL767
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Thu May 23, 2013 2:05 am

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 12):
EY will probably end its relationship with AA and pull AB out of OW.

Not necessarily. Interestingly, in anticipation of launching the AUH-GRU route next month, EY just sealed a code-share agreement with TAM Linhas Aéreas and TAM Airlines Paraguay in order to offer connections to 37 destinations across TAM's network via LATAM's Guarulhos hub.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Thu May 23, 2013 4:08 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
and that Amsterdam, Berlin, and Paris are the natural European connection points for the airline.

Natural as in Skyteam?  
Hey, the link notes AI will restart their bid for *A. That will be fun to watch.    What a miss for *A not to pick up 9W. Yea, I know Skyteam isn't official, but it certainly looks likely.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35):
I wonder if the same ability exists to the UAE, so that DL could fly some of that traffic on their own metal.

I fully expect DL to fly to AUH. But when? It will take better connections, ensured by the EY/9W deal, to make that happen. But what happens if Skyteam converges there for mideast/regional connections?

It takes a minimum connectivity to attract 'hub to hub' flights. IMHO, AUH isn't there yet. But EY has laid the groundwork to be there well within 3 years.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 43):
Interestingly, in anticipation of launching the AUH-GRU route next month, EY just sealed a code-share agreement with TAM Linhas Aéreas and TAM Airlines Paraguay in order to offer connections to 37 destinations across TAM's network via LATAM's Guarulhos hub.

EY is being wise on code sharing...

Quoting airdfw (Reply 42):
Could DL have gotten more if it had invested the money in 9W instead of VS?

DL will get most of the milk for free, why buy the cow? DL didn't need to buy access to India (the US has an open skies with allowed European hubbing).

EY did well, but much of the benefit for AUH wouldn't have translated for DL at AMS or CDG. But since 9W/EY are aligning towards skyteam, the benefits will come cheap (if not for free). DL wins on this deal. Its a question of when they launch flights to AUH, not if. IMHO, they should wait 9 to 15 months, but that is based on a fast ramp up in connections to India...

Quoting airdfw (Reply 42):
I think both AI and 9W spent valuable time chasing Star dream instead of building the alliances strategically.

9W just had EY refocus them on profit and it looks like Skyteam...


Lightsber
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LJ
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Thu May 23, 2013 5:18 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 39):
In addition KLM operated AMS-HYD in the past on top of its daily AMS-DEL flights, as the India-NL bilateral permits each nation to operate 14 frequencies.

DL is operating AMS-BOM under the USA-India & USA-NL bilaterals. The KL codeshare on this route is permitted under the India-NL bilateral.

AFAIK the situation in the Dutch - Indian bilatereal is similar to the one with China. It limits flights to certain destinations (in this case BOM/DEL) only. KL does indeed have 14 frequencies between The Netherlands and BOM/DEL. Thus there is no way KL can codeshare on AMS-DEL/BOM as the codeshare count as a used frequency.
 
factsonly
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
DL/KL will add 9W code on AMS-DEL/BOM-AMS flights.
- KL & DL add their code to domestic Indian flights - already in place in some cases.
Quoting LJ (Reply 45):
KL does indeed have 14 frequencies between The Netherlands and BOM/DEL. Thus there is no way KL can codeshare on AMS-DEL/BOM as the codeshare count as a used frequency.


Read the original post again and you will see it was never suggested KL codeshare to BOM/DEL.

It was proposed that 9W would add its code on to DL/KL metal AMS BOM/DEL.
 
LJ
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Thu May 23, 2013 7:43 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 46):
Read the original post again and you will see it was never suggested KL codeshare to BOM/DEL.
Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
2. HUB AMSTERDAM:
- 9W will operate A330/B777 on its scissor hub routes from DEL, BOM, MAA, HYD with codeshare KL, DL.

I interpreted this as KL putting its code on 9Ws BOM/DEL - AMS. Thanks for the clarification.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 46):
It was proposed that 9W would add its code on to DL/KL metal AMS BOM/DEL.
Quoting factsonly (Reply 17):
2. HUB AMSTERDAM:
- 9W will operate A330/B777 on its scissor hub routes from DEL, BOM, MAA, HYD with codeshare KL, DL.
- DL/KL will add 9W code on AMS-DEL/BOM-AMS flights.

Yet then we would have the same problem as Indian airlines are also restricted to fly between AMS and BOM/DEL, or do you mean that 9W won't operate BOM/DEL - AMS (which isn't in the plans AFAIK)?
 
Azure
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Thu May 23, 2013 7:50 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
Yea, I know Skyteam isn't official, but it certainly looks likely.

It may look likely but I would not take it for granted giving EY's averseness to Alliances, bearing in mind EY's stake into 9W. In fact, what substantial advantage (besides making it possible for its pax to benefit from the "Sky Priority" concept) would 9W get with a costly ST membership that extensive codeshares and FF programs agreements with fellow airlines could not provide ?



Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
EY is being wise on code sharing

VERY wise ! They are building a virtual worldwide network with just their codeshare agreements...Their strategy differs from EK's and we will see in the long term which one proves to be more efficient.



I am not sure this was mentioned in this thread but AMS is a much more "natural" - or valuable - connection point for an Indian airline than BRU : the Netherlands has the second largest population of people of Indian origin in Europe (next only to the UK). It is home to about 220,000 Indians (including the Surinami Hindustani Diaspora, that has still deep cultural links with India).
 
KL577
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RE: Etihad Announces Jet Airways Move From BRU To AMS

Thu May 23, 2013 8:40 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 8):
Agreed. I believe KL has the potential to serve more destinations in India, possibly BOM with its own metal and a third destination (HYD, CCU or MAA are under served from Europe). I am not sure the bilateral allows this.
Quoting LJ (Reply 45):
AFAIK the situation in the Dutch - Indian bilatereal is similar to the one with China. It limits flights to certain destinations (in this case BOM/DEL) only. KL does indeed have 14 frequencies between The Netherlands and BOM/DEL. Thus there is no way KL can codeshare on AMS-DEL/BOM as the codeshare count as a used frequency.

I believe the Dutch-India bilateral allows passenger services to three Indian destinations on a Dutch carrier. BOM and DEL are specified, the third destination is open to the airline. Hence, KLM has served HYD and CCU (as a DEL tag-on) in the past under this arrangement.

That said, premium demand from cities other than BOM, DEL and maybe BLR is, and remains, low. This forced KLM and LH to withdraw from HYD. AF and 9W cancelled services to MAA from Europe. Various american airlines scaled down, etc.

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