LAXintl
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EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Wed May 22, 2013 3:58 pm

Europe is threatening to fine 8 Chinese airlines and 2 Indian carriers for failure to comply with EU-ETS regulations.

Both China and India have barred their airlines from cooperating with European regulators including failing make required activity reports.

On Friday, the EU said it would seek about €2.4 million in fines against the Chinese and Indian carriers.

Of course both the Chinese and Indian governments have said they stand behind their carriers and would consider "reciprocal measures" if the EU continued to push its unilateral actions.
For example Indian carriers have 5-6 daily operations in Europe, while European counter parts have 30-40 operations in India, which could be prove costly.


Stories
8 Chinese, 2 Indian airlines face EU pollution fines
http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...s-face-eu-pollution-fines-20130517

Govt oppose EU threat to fine
http://articles.economictimes.indiat...ia-jet-airways-two-indian-carriers

=
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travelin man
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Wed May 22, 2013 4:49 pm

I thought the US Congress actually barred US airlines from complying with the EU-ETS regulations. No threat of a fine for US carriers?
 
LAXintl
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Wed May 22, 2013 5:01 pm

US carriers are participating with all the behind the scenes requirements still (at the urging of the DOT).

The show down will come if and when EU lifts the program suspension and starts making US airline pay for their operations.
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blueflyer
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Wed May 22, 2013 5:10 pm

I thought the EU had suspended implementation for a year. Has that year come and gone already, or am I missing something else?
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EI564
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Wed May 22, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
I thought the EU had suspended implementation for a year. Has that year come and gone already, or am I missing something else?

The EU is talking about intra-EU flights.

Quote:
On Friday, it made clear, however, that non-EU airlines were still liable to pay for pollution on flights made within the EU.

For example, a Chinese airline may land in Athens first and then fly on to Munich to pick up passengers before returning to the home destination.

Further details http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...bb17ddd88459e17c490f04264d653.a21.
 
hohd
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Thu May 23, 2013 6:06 pm

Only applies if Indian and Chinese carriers carry passengers or fly between two EU cities.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Thu May 23, 2013 8:56 pm

Good luck to the EU with that one. Carbon trading schemes are inane to begin with and the EU doesn't have the stones to start a trade war based on the nonsensical ETS.

Every time Brussels brings up the ETS, I wonder from what they're trying to distract our attention.
What the...?
 
EI564
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Thu May 23, 2013 10:42 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 6):
Carbon trading schemes are inane to begin with and the EU doesn't have the stones to start a trade war based on the nonsensical ETS.

We'll see. Since the EU is simply talking about intra-EU flights, they seem very entitled to do what they want.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Thu May 23, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting EI564 (Reply 7):
We'll see. Since the EU is simply talking about intra-EU flights, they seem very entitled to do what they want.

True...but really, what can they do? What if they just tell the EU to go blow?
What the...?
 
EI564
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Fri May 24, 2013 8:46 am

I'm sure the EU could withdraw their intra-EU flying rights. It would be interesting to see China bid to dictate how intra-EU flights should be charged.

These things normally get sorted before trade wars start anyhow. And even if they did start, China's response might be equally trivial.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Fri May 24, 2013 9:21 am

Quoting EI564 (Reply 9):

From my understanding, the EU itself has no standing since they don't have any air services agreement with the countries in question. It would be up to an individual EU country where the offending airline flies to enforce the scheme.

So what country will tell the Indians to pay up? Germany? France?... The same with China....
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Fri May 24, 2013 1:40 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 6):
Every time Brussels brings up the ETS, I wonder from what they're trying to distract our attention.

They distract attention from the same thing they're talking about.

Look at what we're doing for the environment !

While in practice nothing gets done, or worse some schemes actually destroy the environment (like "bio"fuels and "bio"gas that leads to more deforestation).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
DLPMMM
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Fri May 24, 2013 2:07 pm

BTW,

What intra-EU tag flights are flown by Indian and Chinese carriers?
 
simairlinenet
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Fri May 24, 2013 3:03 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 5):
Only applies if Indian and Chinese carriers carry passengers or fly between two EU cities.
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 12):
What intra-EU tag flights are flown by Indian and Chinese carriers?

Having managed EU ETS compliance for a major airline, it doesn't matter if these are scheduled or unscheduled flights. If there is a diversion into an unscheduled airport and then the aircraft repositions to the scheduled airport, it is considered an intra-EU flight.

Example: if LHR runways are closed and Air India diverts to AMS and then flies the aircraft to AMS, Air India is responsible for the AMS-LHR emissions because it's between two EU airports.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Fri May 24, 2013 3:54 pm

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 13):

Now that I think about it, I guess it is probably mostly cargo flights, like CA's AMS-ZAZ leg.

I just could not think of any pax flights with such tags by any of those countries airlines.
 
simairlinenet
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Fri May 24, 2013 5:54 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10):
So what country will tell the Indians to pay up? Germany? France?... The same with China....

It would be the U.K. for Indian carriers, and Germany for Chinese carriers.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Fri May 24, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 15):

How do you figure that?

Not saying you are wrong, but are Indian carriers using LHR or other UK airports for intra EU flights?

Same question for Germany and Chinese carriers.

IIANM, Each carrier would have to be cited by a country where they fly intra EU flights from or to.
 
EI564
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Fri May 24, 2013 10:51 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 16):
IIANM, Each carrier would have to be cited by a country where they fly intra EU flights from or to.

All those countries have signed up to ETS, so I suppose they will cite them if required.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Sat May 25, 2013 1:52 am

Quoting hohd (Reply 5):
Only applies if Indian and Chinese carriers carry passengers or fly between two EU cities.
Quoting EI564 (Reply 9):
I'm sure the EU could withdraw their intra-EU flying rights

To the best of my knowledge, neither AI nor 9W operates any intra-Euro flights........those are the only 2 Indian carriers flying into Europe....
 
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cjg225
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Sat May 25, 2013 3:48 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 16):

How do you figure that?

Not saying you are wrong, but are Indian carriers using LHR or other UK airports for intra EU flights?

Same question for Germany and Chinese carriers.

IIANM, Each carrier would have to be cited by a country where they fly intra EU flights from or to.

I believe that's because enforcement of the ETS is divided up amongst various EU countries. Carriers are allocated to various countries who enforce against those airlines; there isn't a central enforcement agency of the EU for the ETS.
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kaitak
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Sat May 25, 2013 5:06 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 6):
Good luck to the EU with that one. Carbon trading schemes are inane to begin with and the EU doesn't have the stones to start a trade war based on the nonsensical ETS.

Every time Brussels brings up the ETS, I wonder from what they're trying to distract our attention.

Got to agree with you here; I had thought this nonsense had been buried, but of course I underestimate the ability of the EU to shoot itself in the foot. The EU is a few grades above being a financial basket-case and it needs to maximise trade and commerce; this works against that and the harder they push it, the more damaging it will be.

This is very typical of the sort of unaccountable nonsense that will drive the UK out of the EU - not this alone, of course, but so many things which are imposed but which have no democratic mandate. However, this one is worthy of particular note because it is something which is likely to cause job losses and a competitive disadvantage to European trade, tourism and other areas.

Drop it, for goodness sake, and get with the real world.
 
EI564
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Sat May 25, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 20):
Drop it, for goodness sake, and get with the real world.

I'm pretty sure that ETS is dealing with a real world issue. And i'm pretty sure that the UK government is very much on board. Its strange how often people don't realise that the EU is just reflecting the wishes of its various members.

If the UK government has so much difficulty doing something about LHR, it shouldn't surprise anyone that it supports ETS.
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Sat May 25, 2013 6:37 pm

What is undemocratic is the total openness of our borders trade wise, that may be what UK citizens want, but I'm pretty sure an EU wide referendum on that would be lost.
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sweair
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RE: EU Seek To Fine Chinese & Indian Carriers Over ETS

Sat May 25, 2013 6:40 pm

I did not sign any ETS treaty and I am a citizen of the european soviet republic..