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LAXintl
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Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Fri May 24, 2013 4:04 pm

California legislators have introduced a bill which would allow for Burbank’s Bob Hope Airport and Los Angeles Van Nuys Airport to put into place night-time curfew between 10pm and 7am.

Today both airports have partial and voluntary curfews which are largely ignored by the airline and GA community.

This latest legislation which would exempt both airports from the 1990s Federal Airport Noise and Capacity Act that has made it harder for local communities to impose new non-grand fathered restrictions and is also intended to open the door and create a path for other airports around the nation to gain their own exemptions also.

Bill is the latest part of a 40-year effort by Valley cities like Burbank to limit airport noise and operations.

Stories:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...=news/local/los_angeles&id=9113000
and
http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news...legislation-help-bob-hope-van-nuys

=
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AWACSooner
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Fri May 24, 2013 8:49 pm

This should go over well...

The airport has been around longer than those NIMBY's have...if they want to lose capital by restricting business, go for it. I just don't want to hear any whining when WN starts yanking flights left and right cause they can't make BUR work anymore due to these stupid restrictions.
 
n471wn
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Fri May 24, 2013 8:57 pm

another example of environmental whacko's who have ruined our state......
 
bradmovie
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Fri May 24, 2013 9:58 pm

Folks, these first two responses show a lot of ignorance. I am hardly an "environmental whacko", nor do I have any interest in hurting anyone's business. This issue has nothing to do with the environment or business at all. As someone who lives less than 5 miles from BUR, and lives between BUR and VNY, I can tell you this is a noise issue, plane and simple (pun intended). No one is talking about shutting down any airports.

When you are trying to sleep at 12 or 1AM and a very noisy corporate jet takes off right over your house -- heck, when you are simply trying to watch tv at 10 or 11pm and you can't hear it at all, that is a problem. And when you can't even sit in your patio at dinnertime because of literally constant jet and copter traffic, that is no fun at all. And that happens all the time. It is bad enough putting up with all the takeoffs between 7am and 10pm, and there are regular departures that go on for hours after 10pm. And I'm sorry, I don't buy the argument at all that if poor WN can't have 6am or 11pm takeoffs from BUR they won't be able to make Burbank work. They have been here for as long as they have existed, they are the largest carrier at BUR, and they, like the gardeners and film crews and everyone else who makes noise in LA, have to respect the residents they impact.

You know, I don't mind if an airline has a technical problem and can't take off until late--no problem, let them take off. But to regularly schedule flights that disrupt the sleep of literally hundreds if not thousands of people is a problem.

What makes the noise problem even worse in the SF Valley -- and throughout LA -- is the helicopter traffic--which is already on top of the regular BUR and VNY departures. Unfortunately we live on a direct line between downtown/Hollywood and VNY, so we get constant helicopter traffic overhead going to refuel, etc. On top of that you have regular aerial patrols by the LAPD and the LAFD, and who knows whom else. God forbid there is a fatal accident or car chase -- theyn we get 5 or 6 helicopters hovering over the same urban location for hours.

So sure, I'm a NIMBY. I don't want corporate or sightseeing, or ambulance-chasing helicopters disrupting my life late at night. I don't want commercial takeoffs disrupting my life late at night.

A congressional hearing was held here a few months ago to discuss helicopter noise. A giant auditorium was overflowing with residents upset about the constant, very loud noise--literally hundreds of people complaining.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion about this issue -- this NOISE issue, fine, but there is a lot more to this then calling people wackos and NIMBYs.

Frankly I would like to see helicopters restricted to a much higher altitude. And I would like to see some changes made to the local airspace. Why does almost every single BUR departure (rwy15) make the exact same right turn? Why can't some of the flights make their turn a mile later (would not interfere with LAX), or a mile sooner? Why not use RWY 26 more often for departures? Sure it's convenient for the FAA, but it is very inconvenient for us residents. I so look forward to the days when the winds blows from the north......
 
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Fri May 24, 2013 10:56 pm

I am about 8 miles from BUR, but clearly can hear departures especially in the evenings.

With the topography of the airport being surrounded on 3 sides by hills, the aircraft noise echos far and wide across the valley and over the hills. Thank goodness AA dropped BUR and gone are the fire cracker MD-80s which I could hear even during the day many many miles away.

Frankly much of the issues at BUR and VNY are caused by the operators and their unwillingness to play well with the surrounding communities.
Both airports have existing noise ordinances on the books, but unfortunately the operators know they are weak on the punitive side and opt to ignore them.

This latest proposed legislation only seeks to shore up what is on the books already by putting teeth to the existing 10pm - 7am restrictions.
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n782nc
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Sat May 25, 2013 12:15 am

Quoting n471wn (Reply 2):

Seriously? Please explain to me how the "environmental wackos" have anything to do with a night curfew to begin with? Or for that matter strengthening something that's already in place?

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 3):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):

As a Bay Area resident, forgive my ignorance... But if the optional curfew has been ignored for this long, why wasn't it made mandatory to begin with?
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Sat May 25, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting N782NC (Reply 5):
As a Bay Area resident, forgive my ignorance... But if the optional curfew has been ignored for this long, why wasn't it made mandatory to begin with?

A bit of a history lesson. The activity at these airports was much less going back to the 1970s. By 1980s things got busier so various agreements we hashed out that created operating rules, and things like promise to operate quieter planes, follow certain procedures etc. For the most part people complied.
Fast forward to today and the people and companies have long forgotten what was agreed to 30-40 years ago.

But what really created the bottle neck was that by the late 1980 and into early 1990s FAA and Congress passed various bits of legislation which by intent or not greatly reduced the ability of local airports and communities to manage airport activity.
Airports that already had hard caps like SNA and LBG here in SoCal were grandfathered in, but for those communities that that softer restrictions at the time like BUR and SMO could not move to impose additional restrictions either. Over the years via multiple court cases, various bits of legislation some minor tweaks were made, but an airport like BUR has essentially not been able to make its voluntary program any more mandatory than it was initially.

So all that has been left is continued outreach to aircraft owners and airlines to continue to try to make them aware of community concerns, and the airports operating guidelines.
As with everything in life YMMV and the communities are still left struggling to impose firmer rules 30 years later.

Probably the solace in all this for the community these days is a growing number of legislators including parties inside the FAA have finally understood that regulations such as the Federal Airport Noise and Capacity Act are too complex, and fail communities like BUR that do need a more realistic ability to manage airport activity on a local basis and to better reflect public wishes.
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bradmovie
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Sat May 25, 2013 1:49 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
A bit of a history lesson.

Thanks for that update LAX, I've lived here a long time and didn't know the history myself. I think the new pace of activity now has really been jump-started by the helicopter issues. The City of LA passed a non-binding resolution in the last few months to support federal legislation to curb noise. And at least 10 local cities, from West Hollywood to Manhattan Beach to the LA County Supervisors have all joined in.

The reality is that local government cannot accomplish these changes themselves. It is up to the FAA I'm not sure what they can accomplish in Sacramento either. But there need to be some changes made -- this city is incredibly noisy. I go to NYC regularly, and other big cities, and nowhere else have I experienced the constant noise and low-level flights that I do here.
 
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Sat May 25, 2013 2:04 am

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 3):
When you are trying to sleep at 12 or 1AM and a very noisy corporate jet takes off right over your house -- heck, when you are simply trying to watch tv at 10 or 11pm and you can't hear it at all, that is a problem.

Was the airport there - and active - when you moved to that house?

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 3):
So sure, I'm a NIMBY.

At least you recognize it.
 
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Sat May 25, 2013 7:47 am

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 3):
Folks, these first two responses show a lot of ignorance.

As someone in the USAF who lives near bases that run 24/7 and has to listen to engines much louder than the ones that you are privileged to hear, I am hardly ignorant. I can venture to guess that about 80% of the homes around that airport were built AFTER that airport was built. You chose to live there...just as I chose to do what I do for a living. Suck it up!

If it's an echo issue, then put a limit on engine decibel noise (i.e. no JT8D aircraft). But this curfew that they just now want to enforce? No way.

[Edited 2013-05-25 00:49:34]
 
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Tue May 28, 2013 10:08 pm

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 9):
But this curfew that they just now want to enforce? No way.

If you did not read the other post, the city for many decades has been trying hard to enforce the basic existing 10pm-7am curfew on the books, just its hands have been tied legally while operators come and go as they please overnight.
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wwtraveler99
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Tue May 28, 2013 11:14 pm

Part of this is directed at LAX because you are very informative.

But first all I can say to anyone who decides to move near an airport, just live with it. It was your decision to live near the airport. I lived very close to both BUR and LAX in the past. I remember to glass windows rattling when the 727 freighters took off at midnight.

Checking the schedule for WN at BUR they have ZERO flight scheduled wither before 7a or after 10p. This includes thier overnight aircraft.


For LAX---- With the current curfew that BUR uses, what does it say concerning the curfew? Also what would the "teeth" be that the new proposal contain? Also I was under the impression that all carriers abided by the current curfew put in place at BUR. Are there some who do not follow the guidelines? What is being violated with current rules?

Thank you LAX because I would like to know how the new proposal will change from the current operations there.

For the record I agree with those who said that WN will not pull flights based on this new proposal. They seem to be operating under the current conditions just fine.


WW
 
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Tue May 28, 2013 11:44 pm

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 11):
What is being violated with current rules?

The continued activity between the hours of 10pm to 7am.

Everything from late running aircraft, to the dozen nightly freighters to GA/biz jet traffic

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 11):
Checking the schedule for WN at BUR they have ZERO flight scheduled wither before 7a or after 10p.

Yes but in reality plenty Southwest flights operate late -- arriving post the 10pm curfew.

For example WN599 OAK-BUR arrived past 10pm the following dates in the last two weeks.
May 24 - 1033pm
May 23 - 1015pm
May 22 - 1010pm
May 21 - 1007pm
May 20 - 1030pm
May 19 - 1023pm
and so on...........

or WN2513 SJC-BUR
May 24 - 1039pm
May 21 - 1025pm
May 16 - 1109pm
May 15 - 1110pm
etc...

or WN332 LAS-BUR
May 24 - 1020pm
May 23 - 1149pm
May 21 - 1010pm
May 20 - 1041pm

I think one gets the idea.

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 11):
With the current curfew that BUR uses, what does it say concerning the curfew?

Like mentioned in the article, its a voluntary stipulation that carriers and other operators agree to as part of the airport operating agreement. Unfortunately besides gentle prodding the airport does not have the legal means to enforce this stronger.

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 11):
Also what would the "teeth" be that the new proposal contain?

Could be something like LGB for example where monetary fines are imposed, or maybe like SNA where operators risk loss of operating privileges. Ultimately the airport will have to craft the details.
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Dreamflight767
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Wed May 29, 2013 12:29 am

I really wish people who complained about noise and turned noise issues into political regulations/laws would shut-up because the noise they create hurts my ears and wastes my tax dollars.

Before opening their mouth, they really need to understand how much "damage" they create for the airport, their community, and themselves.

I'm willing to bet other noise in their neighborhood is far more extensive and frequent then the few airplanes that fly over. I'll double my bet that those who complain also use and benefit from the airport next door directly and indirectly. I'll triple my bet by saying those who complain about airport noise don't give a damn about their neighborhood or others neighborhoods' when traveling so long as the schedule and ticket cost work for their convenience.
 
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Wed May 29, 2013 2:32 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Yes but in reality plenty Southwest flights operate late -- arriving post the 10pm curfew.

For example WN599 OAK-BUR arrived past 10pm the following dates in the last two weeks.

Thanks agian LAX. I was not aware that they were not suposed to operate at all after 10p. Thought it was that no carrier could schedule anything after 10p.



WW
 
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Wed May 29, 2013 4:02 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 8):

The entire valley is in the flight path of BUR and/or VNY. And generally commercial traffic is not the issue. Increased private traffic with old aircraft and helicopter traffic are the main issues. And the worst offenders are the police/sheriff and the news copters.

Anyway, its not a matter of "not buying a house near the airport" when the only way to avoid that is to clear the valley of houses. Then, with no residents, there is no reason for BUR in the first place.

BUR isn't LHR or FRA with international arrivals and complicated connections. It's an O&D airport with a nearby international gateway. If the local residents want to limit their own choices of flight times they should be allowed to. And if they want to try to control the flight paths of helicopters it should be considered.
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flightsimer
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Wed May 29, 2013 4:47 am

First off, BUR is not closed to aircraft from 10PM-7AM, it's closed to Stage two Jets and props, flight training and run-ups at that time.

Secondly, Unless you have been living in the house since 1942, you have NO right to complain about noise. You should have stayed in the house a few nights before you bought it to determine the livability. Nothing ticks me off more than people who buy houses right by airports and then complain about the noise.

I hope the FAA determines that the airport will be be in breach of their Grant Agreement and cuts off all funding to the airports and force the airport and city to immediately repay all funding received by the airport. Then maybe people will learn as it will become next to impossible to fly out of the airport as the carriers leave and ticket prices raise for the remaining carriers as the airport introduces new fees to cover all the federal money they just lost. But then again, I'm sure that's exactly what some people just want to want to happen.
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Wed May 29, 2013 4:56 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):

Today both airports have partial and voluntary curfews which are largely ignored by the airline and GA community.

Short story to interject, here.


Right after the DL/WA merger in '87, I was working the Ramp Coordinator's office in SLC. Most of the people in there were ex-WA, including all of the Ramp Coordinators. One evening, we had the last BUR flight of the day, a 737-300, go mechanical and it didn't look like it could be fixed. The coordinator realized that there was a spare 737-200 sitting at a gate and decided to use that to replace the other one, even knowing that it would be breaking the noise curfew for BUR when it arrived. With a wink and a nod, we loaded it up and let it go and the next day, the coordinator had a discussion with flight control in ATL (OCC today) about it, claiming that he didn't realize it was a -200.  
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Wed May 29, 2013 5:53 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Everything from late running aircraft, to the dozen nightly freighters to GA/biz jet traffic

Why does BUR have so many freight operations in the first place? Is there any reason (besides LA's awful traffic) as to why the freighters cannot use LAX or leave earlier in the evening?

I spent 15 years of my school career under the flight path to the 16s at SEA and grew up living under the base leg of a lot of SEA approaches. Fun for me  but surprisingly loud when you are outside and trying to talk to someone.
 
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Wed May 29, 2013 8:25 pm

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 3):
So sure, I'm a NIMBY. I don't want corporate or sightseeing, or ambulance-chasing helicopters disrupting my life late at night. I don't want commercial takeoffs disrupting my life late at night.

Since nobody's asked: why did you chose to live five miles from one of the busiest GA airports in the US and a fairly large regional airport?

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 18):
Why does BUR have so many freight operations in the first place? Is there any reason (besides LA's awful traffic) as to why the freighters cannot use LAX or leave earlier in the evening?

I believe there are only two or three freight jets leaving BUR a day, unless you're counting the tiny freighters that move stuff up and down the coast.
 
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Wed May 29, 2013 9:50 pm

The hostility of some responses is quite impressive, along with with those asking me to justify my life decisions to them.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 2):

another example of environmental whacko's who have ruined our state......
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 8):
Was the airport there - and active - when you moved to that house?
Quoting awacsooner (Reply 9):
You chose to live there...just as I chose to do what I do for a living. Suck it up!
Quoting Dreamflight767 (Reply 13):
those who complain about airport noise don't give a damn about their neighborhood or others neighborhoods'

As I said before, the problem is mostly helicopters and corporate jets that bust the curfew.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 19):
Since nobody's asked: why did you chose to live five miles from one of the busiest GA airports in the US and a fairly large regional airport?

Chrisair, while your question is not hostile, it implies that you believe I must be pretty stupid. Why I chose to live here? To be close to my work, to be in a nice neighborhood, to be close to my family, to be near good schools, it was what we could afford, etc. etc. All the usual reasons. But then again, that's pretty much why anyone decides where to move. Being 5 miles from an airport did not come up at all--especially because we are not on the extended centerlines of any runways. There are over 2 million people who live in this valley -- I guess that makes all of us pretty stupid, too.

Two million people -- do we just put up with whatever corporate America wants to do with their planes and helicopters? No curfews, no noise restrictions, no mininum altitudes? I clearly can't reason with those of you who just see red.

FYI, there are only 3 large jet freighters that depart BUR every day around 730pm--1xUPS and 2xFEDEX a300's I believe. The other freight ops are much smaller aircraft.
 
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Thu May 30, 2013 1:28 am

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 20):
Chrisair, while your question is not hostile, it implies that you believe I must be pretty stupid.

Not at all, and don't put words in my mouth.

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 20):
Being 5 miles from an airport did not come up at all--especially because we are not on the extended centerlines of any runways.

Did you not do due diligence when you bought your house?

For example, for the past few years I've been looking at moving from Tucson, to the Phoenix suburb of Ahwatukee. For many of the same reasons you cite, Ahwatukee is an appealing choice for me.

One problem: there's going to be a freeway put through town somewhere. Nothing has been decided, but there will be a freeway going through Ahwatukee within the next 10 years. As much as I'd love to buy a place and move there now, I can't fathom spending the money only to find out I'll be within a few miles of a major construction zone for 5-10 years. I also can't understand why people have bought homes near or in the proposed construction zones then start complaining. It just boggles my mind. This project has been on the books since the mid 1980s!

One of the first things that came up when I purchased my house in Tucson is I'm directly under the flightpath for the airport. I'm outside the airport "noise zone," so I can't get new windows (bummer), but I still deal with the noise. No big deal from the commercial planes, but the military F16s that buzz the house with afterburners roaring make it impossible to hold a conversation. I decided it wasn't a big deal when I bought my place in 2004.

I understand things change and when you purchased it might have been completely different. But I still have a hard time having sympathy for anyone who complains about aircraft noise. I'm not saying the curfew shouldn't be enforced or "given teeth."

I'll be sure to wave next time I'm arriving or departing BUR at 7a, giving you your morning 737 wakeup call.  

[Edited 2013-05-29 18:29:04]
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Thu May 30, 2013 2:49 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 15):
The entire valley is in the flight path of BUR and/or VNY.

   the valley topography unfortunately carries the booming noise from aircraft very very far.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 19):
I believe there are only two or three freight jets leaving BUR a day, unless you're counting the tiny freighters that move stuff up and down the coast.

Don't forget you also have the 417am UPS A300 arrival, plus the two Fedex A300s arriving at 445am and 556am in addition to the dozen props and GA flights overnight as well.
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StuckInCA
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Thu May 30, 2013 2:51 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 15):
The entire valley is in the flight path of BUR and/or VNY.

OK. I think if you're talking about Chatsworth and Woodland Hills you may be stretching. Why not include Simi, Oak Park and Agoura. I've lived in the area. I've flown into BUR many many times. I'm familiar with the situation.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 15):
If the local residents want to limit their own choices of flight times they should be allowed to.

I'm not sure I agree with this. BUR isn't really just a "local" airport. Sure, it's not LAX, but it's not like it's a small municipal airport either.

Fact is, if you want quiet and you live anywhere near BUR, you simply need to move. Not because of the airport. Because somewhere along the way you made a horrible mistake and moved to a very populous busy area where quiet simply is not in the cards.

I deal with logging trucks grinding up a 10% grade at 5am. People there deal with airplanes at 10:15pm. You want real quiet, move to Alaska.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Thu May 30, 2013 8:43 am

So those of us who work in the military who live near bases that have 24/7 ops...should we then start asking the airfield management to institute curfews because it's annoying?
 
flightsimer
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Thu May 30, 2013 11:28 pm

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 20):
Why I chose to live here? To be close to my work, to be in a nice neighborhood, to be close to my family, to be near good schools, it was what we could afford, etc. etc. All the usual reasons. But then again, that's pretty much why anyone decides where to move.

It 's called compromising, you have to give and take. You want the perfect house in a place where that was not physically practicable and then you want to complain about it. Obviously you placed all the above higher on your priority list than the livability of the house itself. It is up to the buyer to truly figure out the pros and cons.

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 20):

Being 5 miles from an airport did not come up at all--especially because we are not on the extended center-lines of any runways. There are over 2 million people who live in this valley -- I guess that makes all of us pretty stupid, too.

Two million people -- do we just put up with whatever corporate America wants to do with their planes and helicopters? No curfews, no noise restrictions, no minimum altitudes? I clearly can't reason with those of you who just see red.

Do you think planes just fly straight? I live three miles from an airport and I'm directly north of the east/west runway. The planes take off and fly over my house when they are leaving the area to go into the practice area. The Realtors are there to make money, they are not going to tell you just how bad the bad things are.

Everything you mentioned is already in place, but it's obviously not satisfactory to your proposed living standards.

I'm sorry, but I don't pity anyone who lives within the immediate area of any sized airport. You chose to live there, so you must deal with the associated annoyances of doing so.
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bradmovie
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Thu May 30, 2013 11:39 pm

Wow, I try to be civil and explain patiently, but people just want to criticize me for having the audacity and ignorance to leave near an airport. Why can't we have a simple discussion about the pros or cons of the curfew, or excessive helicopter noise -- why does this have to be about me?

Get a life guys.
 
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Thu May 30, 2013 11:51 pm

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 26):

Some people are reading your posts. LAX's comments about how things have changed over the years fell on deaf ears too. VNY and BUR had a shadow of their current operational footprint when they opened in the 40s. The valley was heavily developed since that time - and it goes without saying that consideration of residence location in Southern California requires careful consideration of commute times, area safety, etc. Airport noise will not always be top of mind in such decisions, and why should it have to be? Bizarre logic.
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Fri May 31, 2013 4:49 am

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 27):
Airport noise will not always be top of mind in such decisions, and why should it have to be? Bizarre logic.

Oh, I don't know......I suppose if the noise bothers you, maybe it should be a consideration.  We've had this argument on here, before and for the life of me, I don't understand why someone would buy a house in that type of location, knowing ahead of time that they would be living withing the noise zone of the airport and even if they did buy, then turn around and complain about the noise.....THAT, to me is "bizarre logic".
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
fxra
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:31 am

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 18):
Why does BUR have so many freight operations in the first place? Is there any reason (besides LA's awful traffic) as to why the freighters cannot use LAX or leave earlier in the evening?

LA Basin traffic makes it impractical. With out flights into and out of BUR and SNA customers would be required to make due with earlier cut offs for it bound shipping and and later delivery times. UPS and FDX are just responding to service requirements of valley residents and businesses.

BUR amuses me, while they don't have a hard curfew, they like to use NOTAMs to close the runways (usually for painting) during the night hours. Imagine my surprise when I actually visited BUR and didn't see a runway version of the Sustine Chapel. I mean every night for 6 hours your painting the runway... It should be prettier.

I see BUR gon g the way of SJC, having a curfew which allows for violation for scheduled flights running late.
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:22 am

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 26):
Why can't we have a simple discussion about the pros or cons of the curfew, or excessive helicopter noise -- why does this have to be about me?

I was asking a simple question. If you heard someone living at Waterview and Pershing Drive in LA complaining about noise from LAX, you'd ask the same question, right?

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 27):
The valley was heavily developed since that time - and it goes without saying that consideration of residence location in Southern California requires careful consideration of commute times, area safety, etc. Airport noise will not always be top of mind in such decisions, and why should it have to be?

You could say the same thing about any city and any airport. All I'm saying is if someone chooses to move near an airport, they should consider the fact that there will likely be aircraft noise.
 
studedave
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:15 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 30):
All I'm saying is if someone chooses to move near an airport, they should consider the fact that there will likely be aircraft noise.

Which is what my Family must have done 50 years ago when they moved into a house at the other (noisier) end- like, say 85th street between Kentwood and Emerson. I LOVED growing up that close to LAX in the '70s and '80s!!!



StudeDave
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 26):
why does this have to be about me?

Mainly because you admitted that you were a NIMBY. Bad mistake, I'm afraid.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
chrisair
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:34 pm

Quoting StudeDave (Reply 31):
Which is what my Family must have done 50 years ago when they moved into a house at the other (noisier) end- like, say 85th street between Kentwood and Emerson.

My ex-girlfriend's grandmother lives near 78th and Alverstone. They lived in Surfridge then moved over that way in the 60s (IIRC). I always loved staying there because I could be at the airport in under 15 minutes!
 
JBAirwaysFan
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:44 pm

I'm sorry, but I live near JFK and we just deal with it. If you live in Southwestern Nassau County in New York you're going to have airplanes flying over your house. Yeah, planes are noisy and yes, sometimes they can wake you up, but business is business. Our part of Long Island is noisy anyway, even without the airplanes. If you want quiet go live in the boondocks, sorry. I really have no sympathy for NIMBYS.
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LAXintl
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:47 pm

What is wrong with folks trying to change (improve) their quality of life or neighborhood ?

I have been involved in pushing for projects in my neighborhood for many years that has resulted in everything from new sidewalks, to speed bumps, to planting of trees etc.

For folks around the airport there is nothing wrong in seeking to be active in civic activity and seek to push for changes over time, including pushing for example to have airport activity managed. Life does not have to stay static. Just because there might be noise today, it does not need to be so tomorrow.

I might work in the industry, however this by no means gives us cate-blanche rights to operate at will an ignore the wishes of the communities around us. Imo the industry is its own worst enemy and BUR is a great example. By failing to live up to then expectations of the community the industry brings itself under negative light and stirs the pot with everyone from the local grandma up to US Congressman.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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B737-112
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:38 am

I live right near BUR & I'd like to see more operations, louder jets & no curfew.

Signed, an aviation fan...

Ryan
 
cmf
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:16 pm

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 16):
Secondly, Unless you have been living in the house since 1942, you have NO right to complain about noise.

Well, since you have proposed a method you consider fair you must be happy if that method is applied from the other point of view.

That is, unless you have been flying to the airport since before the first residential building in the area was constructed you have no right to complain about restrictions imposed on the use of the airport.

Still think it is a fair method?

Quoting bradmovie (Reply 26):
Why can't we have a simple discussion about the pros or cons of the curfew, or excessive helicopter noise -- why does this have to be about me?

Because they do not want to discuss the issue. Much easier to call you "crazy" than justify preferential treatment of aviation.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 35):
I might work in the industry, however this by no means gives us cate-blanche rights to operate at will an ignore the wishes of the communities around us. Imo the industry is its own worst enemy and BUR is a great example. By failing to live up to then expectations of the community the industry brings itself under negative light and stirs the pot with everyone from the local grandma up to US Congressman.

  

We share space, we need to compromise on how we use it.
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:29 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 35):
I might work in the industry, however this by no means gives us cate-blanche rights to operate at will an ignore the wishes of the communities around us. Imo the industry is its own worst enemy and BUR is a great example. By failing to live up to then expectations of the community the industry brings itself under negative light and stirs the pot with everyone from the local grandma up to US Congressman.

   Couldn't have said it better.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 30):
All I'm saying is if someone chooses to move near an airport, they should consider the fact that there will likely be aircraft noise.

Which is a fair point. And I made the equally fair point that there are far more decisions to be made than that when choosing where to live.
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:49 pm

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 38):

Which is a fair point. And I made the equally fair point that there are far more decisions to be made than that when choosing where to live.

I would propose that if an airport is right next door to where you plan to buy, THAT should be the first consideration if you don't want to hear the noise.

Quoting cmf (Reply 37):
Quoting bradmovie (Reply 26):
Why can't we have a simple discussion about the pros or cons of the curfew, or excessive helicopter noise -- why does this have to be about me?

Because they do not want to discuss the issue. Much easier to call you "crazy" than justify preferential treatment of aviation.

Because it was HIM that brought up the fact that he was a NIMBY. What kind of reaction did he think he'd get on an aviation site?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
bradmovie
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:08 pm

I was simply saying that I do not want EXCESSIVE noise near my house--and my backyard. I am not some nut who wants to shut down every airport within 25 miles. I simply want BUR to abide by the rules.

There is another hearing this evening on the problem of helicopter noise in the SF Valley, this one led by Rep. Adam Schiff of Burbank at 7 p.m. Monday at the Autry National Center in Griffith Park. Anyone interested in having a serious discussion of these issues is encouraged to attend.
 
cmf
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:00 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 39):
Because it was HIM that brought up the fact that he was a NIMBY. What kind of reaction did he think he'd get on an aviation site?

His use of NIMBY was full of sarcasm in regards to how quick people are labeled that just because they do not prioritize aviation above everything else.

It really is sad how similar those of you calling for unlimited aviation access are to those who want to stop aviation expansion at any cost. Some kind of extreme. Just opposite sides.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
bradmovie
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:32 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 41):
His use of NIMBY was full of sarcasm

Haha, you are correct. Thanks cmf, and thanks also to LAXintl. Extreme positions on most anything are, well, extreme. Working together, forging reasonable compromise is what a free society is all about. Not easy at all.
 
93Sierra
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:34 am

I just don't understand people. The airport was there before you, and you knew that.
Why punish the airport/operators/ and other people who wish to use the airport for means to travel so you can enjoy your tea etc. I live by a railroad track and deal with trains going by all day. Albeit not the same thing, I knew it was there and the pros/cons of my choice of location to live etc. I feel as though many more would
Be affected by the curfew (employees, other local residents, airlines) just to appease a select few. Don't like the police and medical copters...? I bet you would have no problem hovering 10 feet outside of your window at 200 am if it meant your mom/brother/sister/son etc was in need of a life flight or some robber is on the loose.

I hate nimbys, their arguments are self centered and very opionated
 
cmf
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:40 am

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 43):
I just don't understand people. The airport was there before you

There were people there long before airlines. Still think we should use - who was there first?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
93Sierra
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:00 am

Burbank started commerical operations with United in 1930 so uneless your 83 you don't have a dog in the fight.
 
cmf
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:47 am

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 45):
Burbank started commerical operations with United in 1930 so uneless your 83 you don't have a dog in the fight.

Not the same United and not the same flights. If you want to count changes on the residential side then you need to count changes on the aviation side too.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
93Sierra
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:51 pm

Doesn't matter, fact is that commerical operations with loud pistons were being flown there since 1930.

Van nuys has had aircraft operations ( general/coorporate/military) even longer,est 1928. A great film was made with excellent cinatography and quality hd air to air and air to ground shots called One Six Right and they address the issue of the people who buy near an airport and then complain.

[Edited 2013-06-11 06:57:58]
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:17 pm

So its OK for airports to operate or grow without any controls or consideration of the community?

This certainly would not be the case for power plants, chemical plants, or any other industrial uses.
There most certainly would be controls on the activities of such uses along with community input. So why should airports be any different?

At the end, airports are meant to be part of the community, and serve the community, not ignore and willfully oppose them.
As society changes, and community wishes and demands changes, so does all types of land use policy, which can include airports. After all its the people that make laws.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
cmf
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RE: Lawmakers Push For Stricter BUR & VNY Curfews

Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 47):

Doesn't matter, fact is that commerical operations with loud pistons were being flown there since 1930.

More of the same flawed argument. It isn't the same organizations flying there today and thus the was there first argument does not hold water.

Your argument fails on at least three aspects:

1) The airport wasn't there before people lived there.

2) It isn't the same organizations/individuals flying there today.

3) If the people living there should have known the airport would expand operations then the airport should have known it would be more than the residents there would accept.

Personally I think the "first" argument is without merit. At the first part this is about who owns the land and while you can do pretty much anything you want on your land you can't do things that affect people around you. At the second level this is partially negated by "public good." Both sides must be good neighbours.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.

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