nicholasjet
Topic Author
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Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:50 pm

I am sure this is going to cause a huge amount of controversy, but what do you think about the news that the top 10 economy classes of 2013 have been announced?

http://thedesignair.net/2013/06/04/t...ir-top-10-economy-classes-of-2013/

10. Porter
09. Hawaiian Airlines
08. Starflyer
07. Virgin Atlantic
06. Qatar
05. Etihad
04. Singapore Airlines
03. Oman Air
02. Virgin America
01. Air New Zealand

I agree Air New Zealand should win, and that Singapore, Oman air and Etihad should be in. I guess it's like picking a needle in a haystack, but no Thai or Malaysian?

Which ones are missing/valid in your opinion?
 
nicholasjet
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:05 pm

Yey, it's working again!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:15 pm

Quoting nicholasjet (Thread starter):
Which ones are missing/valid in your opinion?

Swiss.

They should be in the top 5 economy classes.

I'd scrub Virgin America and put Swiss as the number two.


        
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
HECA
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 2):
Swiss.

They should be in the top 5 economy classes.

I'd scrub Virgin America and put Swiss as the number two.

Fully agree!
KL, LH, LX, BA, AF, TK, UX, TP, AZ, HV, SK, IB, WX, UA, AA, US, DL, AC, LA, KQ, MS, 4D, ZA, RJ, QR, EK, CX, HX, JL, SQ, MH, FY, MU, CA, TG, UL, FD, K6
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:54 pm

What - no, United, Delta or AA........shocking!!!!   
 
oc2dc
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:13 pm

I'm trying to understand why Virgin America is #2. They don't even fly internationally (with the exception of Mexico) and they don't have wide-bodies. Same goes for Porter. They are a regional airline. They shouldn't be considered.


Yes, Virgin America has a relatively nice product, but do they take service into consideration? If so, perhaps Virgin Atlantic would take its place as #2.
I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
 
alfa164
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:14 pm

I am sure Hawaiian got in based on their short-haul, inter-island flights; their long haul (I've been on MNL-HNL) is definitely nothing to write home about.

On the other hand, Ethiad was outstanding; if you've never flown them, rest assured they deserve to be on this list. Based on reports - I haven't flown Virgin America - the offer a very pleasant coach experience, and they probably earn kudos from passengers who are disappointed (a mild term) in other domestic carriers.

Thai and Malaysian? Thai isn't what it once was, unfortunately... and Malaysian never was. I'd have to put Korean and EVA as top contenders; the Asian airline industry is almost u universally top tier, but TG and MH aren't the best of them.
 
ely747
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:17 pm

I would expect FR to make it to the very top            
Maybe next year ...

[Edited 2013-06-05 15:18:19]
 
b787900
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:18 pm

Interesting. I personally find AC, WS and DL to be much better than porter, hard product wise.

Quoting HECA (Reply 3):

Fully disagree. What's wrong with Virgin America? Their domestic flights are pretty comfortable, enjoyable and have above average customer care. In addition to that, most seats on VX have personal video screens (IFE). It is better than what Swiss offers on their intra-European flights. As far as I know, their A32X series aircraft do not have personal video screens at each seat. However, their long haul is pretty good. VIrgin America doesn't fly long haul.

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 4):

I see no BA, LH, AF, KL their either. So much for the wonderful Euro airlines...
 
mikeology
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:19 pm

I'd have thought JetBlue (B6) would have made top 10 as well
 
stlgph
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:30 pm

Go Porter. I highly enjoyed them.
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BD338
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:35 pm

Quoting b787900 (Reply 8):
I see no BA, LH, AF, KL their either. So much for the wonderful Euro airlines...

I'm not surprised, the Euro airlines in my experience have been going backwards for a few years now in Y. Almost down to the DL, US, AA, UA level.

For TPAC I don't even look at US airlines anymore, I'll happily pay to fly SQ etc....looking forward to trying NZ this year. Looks like I might have made a good choice there as well  
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:29 pm

Given the following criteria...

Quote:
airlines around the world innovate and renovate their economy products to offer a point of difference and make them better than their competitors

and in particular...

Quote:
rated for giving the passenger the best possible experience, both from service and hard product in the air in an economy class

from...

TheDesignAir Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

It's gratifying, from the perspective of those in this part of the world, that NZ has come out on top. A little surprising, but nevertheless gratifying.

The surprise comes from my recent experience with NZ in short and medium haul Y class; domestically, across the Tasman and to the south Pacific. The seats-to-suit product has rendered Y inconsistent, parts of it like a full service carrier, others like an LCC.

And, anecdotally, in long-haul, 10-abreast in Y - on the 77W - is a squeeze for a growing (in height and weight) population. I guess the cuddle-suite may have helped in this regard given the criteria on innovation. I have only flown in Y+ on the 77W and this is worthy of positive recognition but not in this set of ratings.

I do believe that the service from NZ staff - on the ground and in the air - is fantastic though, ne plus ultra, congratulations!
come visit the south pacific
 
airbazar
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:01 am

Quoting BD338 (Reply 11):
I'm not surprised, the Euro airlines in my experience have been going backwards for a few years now in Y. Almost down to the DL, US, AA, UA level.

You can thank the JVs for that. The product has to be the consistent across all partners and usually the worst wins out. Having said that, I still find the service of the Euro carriers to be generaly better than the US legacy carriers. I especially like the service of LX and TP. Very friendly, helpfull, and professional.
 
vegas005
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:09 am

Quoting HECA (Reply 3):
Quoting nicholasjet (Thread starter):
Which ones are missing/valid in your opinion?

Swiss.

They should be in the top 5 economy classes.

I'd scrub Virgin America and put Swiss as the number two.

Curious as to what you think makes Swiss a candidate.
 
sierra3tango
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:41 am

Examining the judges details & the manner in which date is written (mm/dd/yyyy) this looks like a North American survey and as such is probably ? quite fair from that perspective, though quite how Oman Air got on the list is a bit of a mystery

It mixes SH & LH or maybe a better description NB / WB; quite how you compare SQ & Porter in any rational sense is challenging (to say the least), aircraft type, ave sector times, size of operations etc etc.

Looking from outside Nth America (been to 58 countries but never been to Nth America) it is interesting but not terribly relevant with 4 airlines operating mostly inter regional, leaving 6 which are pretty obvious candidates.

If you exclude NB only / regional operators I would delete Virgin Atlantic (my opinion) and add

LH/ BA/ Korean / Malaysian / QF
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:45 am

And yet FR, NK, G4, and CM are making more money than any of them  . Even US and DL are more profitable...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
johnclipper
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:50 am

No CX?

filler

filler
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Cipango
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:22 am

I understand how they have been selected, of course I might nominate one or two more but I feel VS should not be there. It isn't the most pleasant economy class I have been in TBH and especially doesn't deserve a place on this list.
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
n729pa
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:50 am

Quoting nicholasjet (Thread starter):
I'm not surprised, the Euro airlines in my experience have been going backwards for a few years now in Y. Almost down to the DL, US, AA, UA level

I would tend to agree, but I find Swiss and Lufthansa at the top end, BA are bearable, AF better than expected, AZ alright SN, SK poor. But even on a 2 hour+ flight you're lucky if you get more than a coffee and a bun/sandwich.

I fly QF a lot and find their Y service is generally pretty good, long haul and domestic. Even on an hour long flight you get more in way of food and drink than you do on a 2 hour BA flight across Europe for example. I would say you get twice as much in fact, orange juice, water and coffee, plus cheese + biscuits, a cake of some sort, fresh or dried fruit, perhaps a small choc bar or oat/seeded snack on QF. BA you'll get a coffee and a small (about the size of a computer mouse) roll.
Having just got back from Australia recently, I would say their domestic Y service has improved (more hot meals, inflight entertainment etc), but return flight was a bit weak, but I won't judge them on one flight when the other 28 have been of a high standard.

No EK?? I though they were supposed to be the standard everyone aspires too!

I'm curious to know what anyone thinks of JL/NH .......(planning a trip to Japan next year all being well)


just adding...there's a similar post about the Top 20 worst airlines, there's a link then to the Top 20 best and needless to say very different results, so just goes to show how subjective this all is.

[Edited 2013-06-06 00:56:16]
 
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DexSwart
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:19 am

NZ has an excellent product.
Although, I'm surprised nobody brought up VA yet, they've got a very competitive product, with my far the most legroom I've ever seen for a standard Economy seat.

QF, as stated above by n729pa also has quite a nice product.

To make it slightly fairer, I say the list should've been split between long and short haul. Porter didn't stand a chance against some of those Middle Eastern giants or Asian mighties as well.
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
quiet1
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:22 am

Doesn't NZ have 10-abreast on the 777-300ERs? If so, that's impressive that they made the top ten, much less number 1!
 
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afterburner33
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:31 am

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 21):

Doesn't NZ have 10-abreast on the 777-300ERs? If so, that's impressive that they made the top ten, much less number 1!

Yes, and they're going 10-abreast on the 777-200ERs as well...
 
LondonCity
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:58 pm

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 21):
Doesn't NZ have 10-abreast on the 777-300ERs? If so, that's impressive that they made the top ten, much less number 1!



Etihad at #5 also has 10-abreast on its B777-300ERs.
 
chrisrad
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:11 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 6):
Thai and Malaysian? Thai isn't what it once was, unfortunately... and Malaysian never was. I'd have to put Korean and EVA as top contenders; the Asian airline industry is almost u universally top tier, but TG and MH aren't the best of them.

I along with many others would beg to differ. TG and MH were recently about the only airlines to offer 34inch pitch in Y class. MH has won best economy class on a few occasions alone.
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NobleRT
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:15 pm

I have always been extremely comfortable in CX seats. I'm 6'1 and I always feel I have more than enough room and comfort. I would have loved to see CX on this list.
 
timpdx
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:00 pm

I am a fan of MH, they should be on there on seat pitch alone. Etihad is pretty good, I found VA extremely cramped, but flew them last in 2002, maybe they have improved. Thai was nothing to write home about, I am fond of OZ, they should be a contender. Just flew NZ and its my second great experience with them (the 767 product LAX-RAR is great, hard to top 2-3-2 and great service, too)

I also put B6 ahead of VX based on seat pitch in Y.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:24 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 23):
Etihad at #5 also has 10-abreast on its B777-300ERs.

Yeah, and I was surprised to find it so very average.

Sorry but without doubt SQ's soft and hard (ahem) product still comes out on top.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:35 pm

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 17):
No CX?

The new seats might have made the list, but the previous generation hard shell no-recline torture devices they came up with are still flying around in the 747s and A340s. Those pathetic and painful excuses for economy seats are enough to close that list's door for CX...
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AirbusA6
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:28 pm

Quoting afterburner33 (Reply 22):
Quoting quiet1 (Reply 21):

Doesn't NZ have 10-abreast on the 777-300ERs? If so, that's impressive that they made the top ten, much less number 1!

Yes, and they're going 10-abreast on the 777-200ERs as well...

Give me an SQ A380 over a 10Y NZ 777 any day!
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
klwright69
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:16 pm

I took EY long haul several times. Nice inflight entertainment and the catering is a little better than average. Good flight attendants.

But honestly, it's still economy. Seats are always uncomfortable.

Saudi is not bad in economy either actually.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 5):
They don't even fly internationally (with the exception of Mexico)

I think you just answered your own question. Last time I checked Mexico was an international flight from the USA.
 
sierra3tango
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:58 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 30):
Saudi is not bad in economy either actually.

Very true the food's A1 good, but it ain't going to gain any traction here for obvious reasons
 
mixalakhs
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:22 pm

Virgin Atlantic top 10 and not Air France.
It is a joke.
 
alfa164
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:43 pm

Quoting n729pa (Reply 19):
No EK?? I though they were supposed to be the standard everyone aspires too!

EK gained its reputation for an excellent product up front, but its economy cabin is mediocre... at best.
 
nicholasjet
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:31 am

But aren't most economy cabins mediocre. If they were all amazing why would people pay extra for premium economy or business or even first. It's a difficult one to rate I think because in one way the airlines can vary so much, but on the other hand we get upset over a couple of inches *ahem*
 
JBLUA320
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:45 am

It says Virgin America's seat width is 19.7"... I've been on VX countless times and it's a nice product, but there is no way that seat is almost 20" wide. Or am I just crazy?? Can someone confirm? I know SeatGuru also says 19.7" but that just seems... huge!

[Edited 2013-06-06 23:48:07]
 
reality
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:46 am

Quoting b787900 (Reply 8):
VIrgin America doesn't fly long haul.

SFO > JFK isn't long haul? Say what?
 
330lover
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:51 am

Quoting nicholasjet (Reply 35):
It's a difficult one to rate I think because in one way the airlines can vary so much

For me, one should make a separate list for long haul and short haul!
There is no good comparison possible between a 1 hr Porter flight and a 12 hr ANZ.

An eco seat for short haul can be comfortable for a 1-2 hr flight, but the very same seat on a 12 hrs flight can be a real nightmare.
Service level is another thing. On a short flight, crew often has to rush through service to get everything finished on time. On a long flight, they are more at ease and can take the time needed to offer top service (not that all airlines aim at this though...).

The difference is even bigger for business or first class.
Domestic flights (like in US or China) often have first but no business. You certainly can't compare this first with a long haul first like AA, LX, CX,...

So, in my opinion, these lists only make sense when split up.
Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
 
330lover
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:54 am

Quoting reality (Reply 37):
SFO > JFK isn't long haul?

At around 5:30hrs, it's not long haul. More like medium.
Or is there a set definition how long a flight has to take to become short, medium or long haul?

On a side note: I can see that 05:30hrs for some people is short haul, for others very long haul  
Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
 
nicholasjet
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:50 pm

I wonder how this equates to boeing vs airbus in terms of passenger comfort?
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:05 am

Quoting nicholasjet (Reply 40):

Don't mention the war!

BTW, totally agree with a330lover, there is no way one can objectively compare long-haul with short-haul products (in any class).

And to those of you who say SQ has the best Y-class product overall, they appear to have lost top placing in this set of ratings because of their lack of price flexibility. It sounds to me that SQ don't have to lift their skirts (or sarong-kebayas) to attract customers, theirs is not a battle fought on price.
come visit the south pacific
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:16 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 29):
Give me an SQ A380 over a 10Y NZ 777 any day!

Why don't you just compare apples, rather than insert the AvB angle? An SQ77W at 9 abreast against an NZ 77W at 10 abreast... SQ wins hands down every time.
 
BLRAviation
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:04 am

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 17):
No CX?

Have to second your statement. With the new economy, one would agree that CX should be up there. But the old product? Its quite uncomfortable.
I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
 
zkncj
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:30 am

 
BMI727
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:38 am

This whole thing is silly. Rating economy classes is like rating gasoline: the differences are fairly trivial although sellers go to great lengths to convince us that their product is best. Economy class travel is a commodity these days.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:02 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 42):
An SQ77W at 9 abreast against an NZ 77W at 10 abreast... SQ wins hands down every time.

I agree with you. I know 3-4-3 777s are becoming the norm, but IMHO any carrier that touts themselves as being 'world class' should have the little comforts above the rest (seat width and pitch) both of which NZ has reduced when replacing the 744 with 77W. It's not like NZ is cheaper than anyone else to justify the slight decrease in comfort.

Good on them though for getting number 1.
 
BLRAviation
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:21 pm

Just did SQ SIN-DME-IAH and return. Without a doubt one of the best economy class in the world. Marry that to the traditional SQ service, I truly am surprised that NZ was given top spot.

QR also has very wide economy class seats on their 777s, but their Airbus have the standard 18" widths, and their 787 have the bone-crushing 9 abreast similar to 10 abreast 777s.

I also dislike their "dog in the manger" philosophy.

SQ allows the armrests to be lifted full 90 degrees, so that if there are any adjacent seats empty, you can lie down. My daughter and I had 3 seats to ourselves, so we were able to lie down sleep, alternately, resting our head in the other's lap.

QR restricts their armrests to 45 degrees. "If I cannot have a passenger for that seat, neither can you benefit from it." philosophy. Sad to see such a cheap outlook from an otherwise decent airline.
I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
 
infinit
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:35 am

I don't believe in rankings anymore for Economy especially.

What makes the highest ranked airline better than the second and third? We can go on till the cows come home.

I think a better approach would be to band airlines- those that offer a better product and level of service to medium-rated ones and finally a band of sub-par airlines.

Also, a distinction must be made for long haul and short haul to be valid.
 
alfa164
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RE: Top 10 Economy Classes Of 2013

Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:29 pm

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 24):
I along with many others would beg to differ. TG and MH were recently about the only airlines to offer 34inch pitch in Y class. MH has won best economy class on a few occasions alone.

Unfortunately for the, this wasn't a poll asking "Which airline has the most seat pitch?" It was a poll about overall comfort and service in economy class.... and TG and MH simply don't make the cut.