Gonzalo
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Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:35 pm

A flight up to 4 hours ( over the sea ) in a turboprop will be possible now, after EASA granted certification of ETOPS 120 for the ATR 42 / 72 600 Series...

What an experience  ....I had my good dose of turboprops, and I loved every minute.... but 4 hours looking to the blue ocean....   

http://atwonline.com/airframes/easa-...ants-etops-approval-atr-600-series



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flyingturtle
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:08 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
but 4 hours looking to the blue ocean....

We already have more than 4 hours of looking at the beautiful blue ocean with jets... 


I just wonder if there would ever be a 320-sized turboprop. In Germany, long-distance buses are taking up market share from the railway - could something like this ever happen in aviation? A market for people who rather care about money, but do not care if the airspeed is 0.85 Mach or 0.5 Mach?


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ATLgaUSA
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:10 pm

How is a flight of up to four hours over the sea possible with the granting of a two hour ETOPS certification?
 
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:16 pm

Quoting ATLgaUSA (Reply 2):
How is a flight of up to four hours over the sea possible with the granting of a two hour ETOPS certification?

ETOPS120 simply means that they need to be up to 120 minutes flying time away from a suitable landing field.

So, with ETOPS120, you can fly from Glasgow to Reykjavik a 5 hours flight for a turboprop because of the Faroe Islands in between.
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ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:29 pm

Quoting ATLgaUSA (Reply 2):
How is a flight of up to four hours over the sea possible with the granting of a two hour ETOPS certification?

2 hrs to land behind you... 2 hrs to land in front of you.... 4 hours over water total
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zeke
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:39 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):

People have been doing overwater flights in turboprops for years, some P3 Orion crews have had the pleasure of 15+ hour sorties over water, to extend the endurance they shut one or two engine down.
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:42 pm

Granted, this was done with an L-188, but Reeve's used to fly Cold Bay to Seattle non-stop, which was entirely over the north Pacfic, and was about 4:45 enroute.
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:43 pm

What markets would this apply to?
 
silentbob
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:51 pm

Can they carry enough fuel for a four hour flight (plus reserves)?
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:08 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 7):
What markets would this apply to?

Doesn't sCO fly a few of these out of Guam?
 
BestWestern
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:13 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 7):

What markets would this apply to?

I am assuming this helps Air Tahiti

The US airforce operates props out of Shannon westbound.... what is their routing?
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yellowtail
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:18 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 7):
What markets would this apply to?

Would any LI flights qualify? or even need it...
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Azure
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 10):
this helps Air Tahiti

Not really : Air Tahiti operates ATR 42 / 72 500 series, not 600...

Contrary to popular belief, ETOPS do not only refer to flights over the oceans but also to operations over some deserts without suitable airports, such as Siberia.
 
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zeke
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:45 pm

Quoting silentbob (Reply 8):

Yes
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BestWestern
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:27 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 12):
Not really : Air Tahiti operates ATR 42 / 72 500 series, not 600...

Now, Air Tahiti has achieved yet another milestone for ATR, becoming the first airline in the world to order both versions of the new ATR “series 600” family of turboprop airliners, with orders for two 70-seat ATR 72-600s and three 48-seat ATR 42-600s.

The longest scheduled route flown by any ATR airliner is 1,650 kilometres, a journey which typically takes 3 hours 40 minutes to complete. Again the operator is Air Tahiti, and again with an ATR 72-500, this time between Papeete and remote Gambier Island. That’s roughly the same distance as Sydney – Auckland or Paris – Stockholm.

http://www.asiatraveltips.com/news10/98-AirTahiti.shtml
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Azure
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 14):
with orders for two 70-seat ATR 72-600s and three 48-seat ATR 42-600s.

Interesting. But they have not taken delivery yet, have they ?
 
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:04 pm

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 4):
Quoting ATLgaUSA (Reply 2):
How is a flight of up to four hours over the sea possible with the granting of a two hour ETOPS certification?

2 hrs to land behind you... 2 hrs to land in front of you.... 4 hours over water total

No way. A scheduled four hour flight is scheduled with BOTH engines operating. If one engine fails at exactly the two hour point, the plane is going to fly SLOWER with the one remaining engine. It will take longer than two hours to get to either airport, which is outside the ETOPS 120 limit.

I don't have any performance data in front of me but I think you would be looking at a flight scheduled no more than 3:20 to satisfy the ETOPS 120 requirement.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:32 pm

A flight might also be scheduled without needing ETOPS, until the diversion airport has foul weather, and then ETOPS allows you to operate anyway.
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A388
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 15):
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 14):
with orders for two 70-seat ATR 72-600s and three 48-seat ATR 42-600s.

Interesting. But they have not taken delivery yet, have they ?

Delivery of Air Tahiti's first ATR42-600 is expected I would suspect as the aircraft is already doing test flights:


http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/viewphoto.main?LC=nav2&picid=8406


The livery is everything but tropical. Why don't they use the same livery as Air Tahiti Nui? That would be much better.


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mercure1
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:43 pm

Older series ATR's are ETOPS already.

Air Tahiti has operated ETOPS since early 1990s with ATR.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:27 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 10):

I don't think the military falls under ETOPs
 
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:54 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 12):
ETOPS do not only refer to flights over the oceans but also to operations over some deserts without suitable airports, such as Siberia.

The article specifically mentions areas like Polynesia or Siberia. A couple years ago the ATR was in Siberia for tests to extend its cold weather certification to -54 degrees. So perhaps they are indeed targeting customers in Siberian and similar remote regions.
 
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:55 pm

Some KingAirs have 15h endurance.....
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:18 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 19):
Older series ATR's are ETOPS already.

Yes, of course.

Most forget the ATR was developed from an anti-submarine airframe designed to be aloft for many hours.
 
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:20 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 16):
No way. A scheduled four hour flight is scheduled with BOTH engines operating. If one engine fails at exactly the two hour point, the plane is going to fly SLOWER with the one remaining engine. It will take longer than two hours to get to either airport, which is outside the ETOPS 120 limit.

I don't have any performance data in front of me but I think you would be looking at a flight scheduled no more than 3:20 to satisfy the ETOPS 120 requirement.

It's a rough example for somone wondering how it would be a 4 hour flight as oppose to 2 when it's an ETOP 120....... to be exact though... your ETOPS range would actually be based of one engine inoperative speed, at ISA, in still air, plus required reserves (which can be reduced)
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:06 pm

The reality is that there are a number of destinations where their airports have relatively short runways and/or in topography tight spots that a prop type a/c like the ATR is an ideal a/c vs. a non-prop jet a/c yet be large enough to carry a significant amount pax and cargo. With such situations low and slow but with high range and the ability to land/take off from short runways is desirable, including artic, dessert, over water areas. This could also save time and money for airlines with them from having to operate with a mandated intermediate stop due to low ETOPS.
With these ETOPS 120 ATR's, some operators will save money as well as pax and cargo will be better served.
 
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:40 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 11):

Only one I can think of (if ever LI were to operate the route) is between CUR and SXM. I think that route is just outside the normal ETOPS 60 rule (for a t-prop of course).
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:54 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 19):
Older series ATR's are ETOPS already.

I did, thank you for the reminder.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
Most forget the ATR was developed from an anti-submarine airframe designed to be aloft for many hours.

Which airframe, I'm curious? But the latest series are not derived with the same certification engines which changes everything.

Quoting Azure (Reply 12):
Contrary to popular belief, ETOPS do not only refer to flights over the oceans but also to operations over some deserts without suitable airports, such as Siberia.

Which everyone should recall. But how many flights are that? This ETOPS looks to be for Air Tahiti.

Quoting bohica (Reply 16):
I think you would be looking at a flight scheduled no more than 3:20 to satisfy the ETOPS 120 requirement.

Agreed, so that Air Tahiti needs this.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
A flight might also be scheduled without needing ETOPS, until the diversion airport has foul weather, and then ETOPS allows you to operate anyway.

I wonder how many routes that would open... but you are correct, there must be a diversion airport.

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kgaiflyer
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
But the latest series are not derived with the same certification engines which changes everything.

Yes, of course. According to Wikipedia:

"The current production version is the −500 series. It is totally new generation aircraft with new engines, new propellers, improved hot and high performance, increased weight capacity and an improved passenger cabin. The 50-seat ATR 42–500 was first certificated in July 1995."

From http://www.AviationExplorer.com

"The new ATR 42–600 and ATR 72–600 will feature the latest technological enhancements while building upon the well-known advantages of the current aircraft, namely its high efficiency, proven dispatch reliability, low fuel burn and operating cost. It will include the new PW127M as standard engine (new engines provide 5% additional thermodynamic power at takeoff, thus improving performance on short runways, in hot weather and on high altitude; the incorporation of the “boost function” enables use of this additional power as needed, only when called for by the takeoff conditions), Glass Cockpit flight deck featuring five wide LCD screens that will replace the current EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrument System). In addition, a Multi-Purpose Computer (MPC) will further enhance flight safety and operational capabilities. The new avionics, to be supplied by Thales, will also provide CAT III and RNP capabilities. It will also include the new lighter and more comfortable seats and larger overhead baggage bins. The −600 series ATR aircraft will be progressively introduced during the second half of 2010. The ATR 42–600 Series launch customer is the Royal Air Maroc (deliveries begin in March 2012)."

[Edited 2013-06-08 14:03:38]
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
Most forget the ATR was developed from an anti-submarine airframe designed to be aloft for many hours.

Which airframe, I'm curious?

I'm not convinced that the ATR really has any relations to an anti-submarine airframe.

If it is correct, then the only possible candidate is the Breguet Allantique.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ben Montgomery



But the Atlantique is a much bigger and heavier plane, and has more than twice as powerful RR Tyne engines. It also cruises much faster than the ATR at altitude. It first flew from Toulouse in October 1961, and as much upgraded version (Atlantique 2) it was produced for the French Marine until early 1990'es.

My wild guess would be that the ATR owes at lot more of its genes to the Nord 262.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve E Walker



The French Army and Marine used the Nord 262 for medevac and utility transport. Range is quoted as 650 miles, which hardly calls for ETOPS certification.

The Atlantique, however, is quoted with 5,000 miles range.

[Edited 2013-06-08 18:05:55]
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Aesma
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:06 am

Apparently ATR offers the ATR 42 MP Surveyor for S&R and maritime patrol, but it came long after the base ATR.
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queb
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 12):
Contrary to popular belief, ETOPS do not only refer to flights over the oceans but also to operations over some deserts without suitable airports, such as Siberia.

and Northern Canada

Quoting r2rho (Reply 21):
A couple years ago the ATR was in Siberia for tests to extend its cold weather certification to -54 degrees.

ATR -600s, certified to operate at take-off and landing temperatures as low as -45°C (june 06 2013)

http://www.atraircraft.com/newsroom/...ress-releases-details-1214-en.html
 
flyby519
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:13 am

I love the ATR, sadly we don't see many around N.America
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:00 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 30):
Apparently ATR offers the ATR 42 MP Surveyor for S&R and maritime patrol, but it came long after the base ATR.

Ah, so.
 
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:28 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 8):
Can they carry enough fuel for a four hour flight (plus reserves)?

Given it's just been certified to do it, one would have to conclude it can, no?   

Either that or EASA is mad!   
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SXI899
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:01 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 8):
Can they carry enough fuel for a four hour flight (plus reserves)?

Longest flight (block time) that I've done in an ATR72 is just over 8 hours, and we still had nearly an hour's worth of fuel still in the tanks. I've also heard anecdotal evidence of 9+ hour flights in an ATR42.
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RE: Easa Grants Etops 120 For ATR42/72-600 Series

Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:34 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 1):
I just wonder if there would ever be a 320-sized turboprop. In Germany, long-distance buses are taking up market share from the railway - could something like this ever happen in aviation? A market for people who rather care about money, but do not care if the airspeed is 0.85 Mach or 0.5 Mach?

How about a passenger version of the Airbus A400?  Now that would be something to behold!