md80fanatic
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TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:34 pm

It was only a matter or time. We'll soon see who is really dedicated to taking a plane at any cost ... to their dignity and privacy, no less.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/09/wo...tan-hid-bomb-in-his-body.html?_r=0

Extract from above article, credit to New York Times reporter Rod Nordlund:

"Afterward, the counterterrorism unit of Europol, Europe’s police agency, warned that airlines might have to tighten their screening procedures because a rectal bomb could escape detection by normal X-ray scanning machines."

Needless to say, you can count me out.
 
PanHAM
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:51 pm

Instead of searching millions of passengers even further inside their bodies every day, just ignore such threats.

As mentioned in the article, there are limitations to the efficiency of the bombs. It mainly affects the suicide bomber. Positively seen, each time such a detonation occurs, there is one a...hole less in this world.
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northstardc4m
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:30 pm

People need to remember that if someone is REALLY dedicated to getting a bomb on a plane, they will find a way to do it.
If its not rectal/swallowed/stuck up some other orifice, it'll be surgically implanted. The solution is not to beef up security screening of passengers, but pro-active elimination of the groups responsible.

This is not a new problem, just new methods. Political/terror hijacking became bombing of airliners quite a long time ago. It's just that now the bomb materials are getting harder to detect. There isn't anything that running around promoting more invasive screenings of little old grannies is going to do to prevent someone well trained and dedicated from beating the system. People have been using bombs for political statements and terrorism since long before airplanes were around.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
RussianJet
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:55 pm

What is this 'nightmare' referred to? I see absolutely no evidence of anyone taking a position on this involving everyone having cavity searches. You have taken 'tightened screening procedures' and extrapolated it rather hysterically to imply that we'll all be having our butts probed in the near future, when quite clearly nobody is suggesting anything of the sort. I suppose if nothing else it's allowed you to come up with a nice, alarmist thread title with which to attract attention. Quite obviously it would be utterly impractical to introduce any such screening - the business of air travel would become completely non-viable.
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comorin
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:34 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
What is this 'nightmare' referred to? I see absolutely no evidence of anyone taking a position on this involving everyone having cavity searches. You have taken 'tightened screening procedures' and extrapolated it rather hysterically to imply that we'll all be having our butts probed in the near future, when quite clearly nobody is suggesting anything of the sort. I suppose if nothing else it's allowed you to come up with a nice, alarmist thread title with which to attract attention. Quite obviously it would be utterly impractical to introduce any such screening - the business of air travel would become completely non-viable.

Chill, man, just another tongue in cheek post!  
 
RussianJet
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Chill, man, just another tongue in cheek post!

You say that, but actually it's pretty much indistinguishable from a huge number of seriously-meant, hysterical threads of this ilk.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
comorin
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:51 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):

You are right about some of the posts here, but I found it hard to keep a straight face reading this particular thread.

Cheers

Comorin
 
RussianJet
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:08 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 6):
but I found it hard to keep a straight face reading this particular thread.

Fair enough, it's just that like I say - nothing really surprises me here in respect of seizing opportunities for creating a TSA-fest. The idea of a rectal bomb is also not news, it's been mooted for quite some time, and if there was going to be a knee-jerk reaction, we'd probably have already seen it.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:15 pm

If anyone is going to blow its rectum with explosives....in my book they are welcome to do so.

If somebody is going to make travel difficult because of these, Ill take the train...

TRB
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ADent
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:19 pm

You can kill two birds with one stone - MRI scanners.

Install those to look for the rectal bomb. You can bring a USB thumb stick and download the resulting image and take it to your doctor.

Feel a lump, but don't have $1200 for an MRI. Book a flight and get a free scan from the TSA.
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:20 pm

This posting title is misleading   They've been a nightmare for quite some time already. They are continually evolving as they say but usually in the wrong direction. I bet they up the nitrate testing in response but it has a high false positive rate. We'll probably see more incidents like recently at DFW when TSA detained a wheelchair bound girl after this test came up positive. TSA told her mother they had to call in the bomb squad but after 45 minutes of being detained they let them air side with no additional screening. I suspect what happened was local PD either refused to cooperate with TSA or told them bluntly it wasn't a high priority with nitrate test alone and they could take hours to respond. I don't think people in this country would ever accept literally an anal probe from TSA but it is shocking what we've tolerated from them already. *honk* *honk*  
 
anrec80
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:39 pm

Yep, we'll need to get ready for cavity searches. I am already imagining separate male/female TSA screening checkpoints and travelers in all kinds of funky positions... Next step - everyone in one line?
 
Capt.Fantastic
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:39 pm

The article has nothing to do with the TSA.

As stated already, if someone is determined enough to get a device or weapon on an aircraft, TSA is not going to stop them.
 
anrec80
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:41 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 9):
Install those to look for the rectal bomb. You can bring a USB thumb stick and download the resulting image and take it to your doctor.

Yep. Or post it online, saying it was "that other guy". Along with maybe couple dozen other images...
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:48 pm

"Then he blew up"

No doubt, producing the worst case of hemorrhoids in history.   
 
rampbro
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 9):
Feel a lump, but don't have $1200 for an MRI. Book a flight and get a free scan from the TSA.

Obamacare + War on Terror = Problem Solved!

Has no-one else though of the South Park episode?:
"Excuse me sir I just hafta check yo' @$$hole....."
 
PHLBOS
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:29 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 15):
Has no-one else though of the South Park episode?:

From the 2008 movie, An American Carol.

Note 2:30 in the below-video clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHEk_kaXmTk

Again, this movie was out in the summer of 2008; a year-and-a-half before the so-called Underwear Bomer attempted to blow-up DTW-bound NW Flight 253 from AMS in Christmas 2009.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
B707MT
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:45 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Positively seen, each time such a detonation occurs, there is one a...hole less in this world.

Last six words just nailed it! What would the media use? "Suppository bomber"?   
 
ScottB
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:02 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 9):
Feel a lump, but don't have $1200 for an MRI. Book a flight and get a free scan from the TSA.

Mention Al Qaeda for a complimentary colonoscopy, too!
 
muzyck
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:11 pm

I knew where this was going before I read the linked article, but I was also sure that it was a link to The Onion.
 
xdlx
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:44 pm

TSA was a NIGHTMARE, is a NIGHTMARE, and will continue to be NIGHTMARE....
 
UA735WL
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:56 pm



Quoting ADent (Reply 9):

But what happens if pax feel "uncomfortable" with the proposed MRIs as with the current milimeter wave scanners? What will be the alternative?

"All passengers who do not wish to receive an MRI for personal or medical reasons will receive a thorough rectal examination. Your safety and privacy are our greatest priorities. "      

Would be rather funny to hear that played on a loop above a security checkpoint....   

[Edited 2013-06-10 16:57:31]

[Edited 2013-06-10 17:03:14]
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" -Tex Johnston
 
RussianJet
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 20):
TSA was a NIGHTMARE, is a NIGHTMARE, and will continue to be NIGHTMARE....

Congrats on the novel point of view there. However, what on earth does that have to do with some guy in Afghanistan putting explosives up his butt? Answer - absolutely nothing, other than massive speculation.
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braynfeeble
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:03 am

Adds new meaning to "Spruce GOOSE"!
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PC12Fan
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting md80fanatic (Thread starter):
TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Seriously?

You obviously haven't been on a flight in the last few years.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
hz747300
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:05 am

I read something a few years ago that L3 or someone had developed a device where you stand in the tube (like the full body scanner) and it blows a quick rush of air over the person, then the particles are analysed for any undesirable material. Would that work for a rectal bomb detector (or swallowed?)?.... I thought it might.

Anyhoo, there are politically insensitive ways to do this a lot better and not have to ruin the travel experience for everyone...
Keep on truckin'...
 
flyingwithfish
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:05 am

Europol and DHS have been well aware of this threat for a significant amount of time. Agency analysts have been talking about it, using very real models, while the upper management has tried to brush it aside.

I wrote about this in some significant detail, with the help of a DHS analyst, back in November 2010 ... since I believe forum rules prohibit me from posting a link Google

"flyingwithfish + Rectal Bomb"

The solution to this, in part, is K9 units trained to sniff for vapour waves, which I am in the process of writing about now. There are some issues, such as older PETN that is not laced with a trace scent.
Find Me On Twitter @flyingwithfish
 
flyingwithfish
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:18 am

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 25):
I read something a few years ago that L3 or someone had developed a device where you stand in the tube (like the full body scanner) and it blows a quick rush of air over the person, then the particles are analysed for any undesirable material. Would that work for a rectal bomb detector (or swallowed?)?.... I thought it might.

You are referring to the former TSA Explosive Trace Detection Portals (aka: Puffer), which were initially purchased by the TSA in 2004 from GE Infrastructure and Smiths Detection, at a cost of US$160,000 per unit. 95 ETD Portals were installed in 34 airports and required passengers to stand in an enclosed area while micro-bursts of air loosened particles to detect trace elements of contraband items (explosives and narcotics). The total cost of the hardware was US$15,200,000, not including the costs of infrastructure modification by airports to accommodate the hardware . ETD Portals were removed from service and shelved in 2008 due to a significant high rate of false positives, extensive maintenance costs and … best of all … becoming rendered almost completely useless by humidity.
Find Me On Twitter @flyingwithfish
 
AA767LOVER
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:39 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):

LOL! Literally speaking . . . of course; an immediate cure to anal-retentiveness and hemmorhoids all in one go.
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brilondon
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:04 am

If you have nothing to hide, why does it matter what kind of detection equipment is used and what scanners are in place?
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flybhx764
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:37 am

Its very hard to understand alot of people. If someone got a bomb on board and threatened the lives of all the poor innocent people that is more worst. People lives at risk, innocent deaths. I think that is more worst than the scan at the airport. These terrorists do not care about people and scanning machines. The just want to hurt people and make a statement for themselves. The people of here that make a fuss and say the TSA are wrong , or they dont agree with them are just thinking about themselves. Realistically they have to think if someone go on board with a rectal bomb on their flight , was a scan not better for their safety. I do not mind any scan the airport do. It makes me happy to know that the TSA are trying their best to do everything they can to make our flights as safe as possible, You will always get the people in the world who will moan and groan, But all I care about if my safety and everyone else s.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:42 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 29):
If you have nothing to hide

Everybody has something to hide. It's called... privacy.

Somebody might even care for his diary pages so much that he'll stuff them into a container and then store them in his wholly own, private and intimate arse.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:56 am

Quoting flybhx764 (Reply 30):
The people of here that make a fuss and say the TSA are wrong

The TSA is wrong, because air travel already is extremely safe. At the moment, every $$$ is better spent in obesity prevention, campaigns for safe driving, and incentives to stop smoking. This is saving lives by the thousands and thousands. This is a creeping disaster in our plain view, but we rather care about somebody carrying a bomb in his butt.   

And if you ask me "But, do you want to have a bomber on your flight?", then my answer is obviously no. But my answer is a convinced "yes" when I say that air travel is already safe enough.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
bennett123
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:44 am

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

This was written by Franklin, within quotation marks but is generally accepted as his original thought, sometime shortly before February 17, 1775 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly, as published in Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin (1818). A variant of this was published as:

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

This was used as a motto on the title page of An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania. (1759); the book was published by Franklin; its author was Richard Jackson, but Franklin did claim responsibility for some small excerpts that were used in it".

Quotation by Benjamin Franklin, curtsey of Wikipedia.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:05 pm

This thread has the feel of a "Southpark" episode. I can just see it now, the little kids take the short bus to the airport for a little flying field trip.

Quoting B707MT (Reply 17):
What would the media use? "Suppository bomber"?

   Naturally, if done as a Southpark episode, that would be Kenny.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 29):
If you have nothing to hide, why does it matter what kind of detection equipment is used and what scanners are in place?

WHAT?!? What happened to freedoms? People are already flying a bit less thanks to the "TSA hassle." Remember when sub 250nm flying was common? Look at the route maps, too much of that was cut off post 9/11.

Lightsaber
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cmf
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:31 pm

[quote=flyingturtle,reply=32But my answer is a convinced "yes" when I say that air travel is already safe enough.[/quote]

Isn't that dependent on continuing to spend money on keeping up "safe enough?"

Note: Not saying this is the best or even right way to keep it up but I don't see how we can stand still and not expect to be passed by.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
SeJoWa
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 29):

If you have nothing to hide, why does it matter what kind of detection equipment is used and what scanners are in place?

So if you were suspected of anything, you would be happily harassed by an alternating set of government officials until they declare you fit for public consumption? Because that's what you're saying by settling the burden of proof on your own shoulders and providing your rulers with carte blanche to obsess about you.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:04 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):
Isn't that dependent on continuing to spend money on keeping up "safe enough?"

Of course, today's safety standards need lots of money to uphold. But I'm not willing to spend 0.1% more on my ticket for a 0.05% increase in safety.  

I would invest in better intelligence and improved ground and air crew training instead of installing new scanners and detectors.

If I may disregard differences in age (e.g. old people are more liable to die in the next 12 months than young ones) and other risks, as a Swiss I already have a 0.81% chance of dying this year. We could completely remove airport security and my 0.81% would not change much, because I only travel 2 to 5 times a year by airplane.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
alfa164
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:57 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 14):
"Then he blew up"

No doubt, producing the worst case of hemorrhoids in history.

Actually, probably the most successful cure for hemorrhoids in history....   
 
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:03 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 22):
on the novel point of view there. However, what on earth does that have to do with some guy in Afghanistan putting explosives up his butt?

I thought this was just the early R&D for the Afghan Space Program? No?   
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enilria
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:14 am

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 2):
Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 8):

To me if you can't get in the cockpit you can only kill the people on the plane. As Boston showed, trying to smuggle something on a plane is probably about the hardest way to achieve such a horror.
 
cmf
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:09 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 37):
But I'm not willing to spend 0.1% more on my ticket for a 0.05% increase in safety.

Are you sure that is the ratio?

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 37):
I would invest in better intelligence and improved ground and air crew training instead of installing new scanners and detectors.

If that has better expected result then I'm all for it. Do you have the numbers? I don't.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 37):
If I may disregard differences in age (e.g. old people are more liable to die in the next 12 months than young ones) and other risks, as a Swiss I already have a 0.81% chance of dying this year. We could completely remove airport security and my 0.81% would not change much, because I only travel 2 to 5 times a year by airplane.

Hmm. You need to expand on this. from where did you get 0.81%? Is it how many of Swiss 26 - 35 year olds die per year at this time? What do you think will happen if we remove airport security? Not to you personally but in total. It hasn't been stepped up without reason. And I'm not talking about 9/11 where I think the response was out of proportion.

I really have problems following your logic when you try to connect the few trips you take to the risks involved. Sounds very much to me as the guy stating it is safe to walk red lights because he has not been hit (yet.)

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
To me if you can't get in the cockpit you can only kill the people on the plane. As Boston showed, trying to smuggle something on a plane is probably about the hardest way to achieve such a horror.

What is the Boston event showing it is hard to smuggle something on a plane?

What about if this is about maintaining cockpit safety? Is it a proper move then?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:29 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 41):
Are you sure that is the ratio?

It's just a guess. And I fear for a 0.1% increase in ticket price we'll get much less than 0.05% in terms of more safety.

We can speak here in terms of marginal costs. How much additional benefit do you enjoy by spending how much additional $$$?

Just checking travelers' passports is very cheap, and already gives a lot of safety in comparison to no checks at all.

Metal detectors don't cost more than 20'000 $ (so I think), and they do not impede the flow of passengers. For the money spent, it's still a very efficient measure.

And then, backscatter X-ray or other nude scanners. Costs a lot, lot more compared to metal detectors. Gain? You'll catch the extremely few people who actually want to fly with bomb that has no metal parts.

And now they think about making it impossible to carry butt bombs?

Quoting cmf (Reply 41):
Sounds very much to me as the guy stating it is safe to walk red lights because he has not been hit (yet.)

I know *this* is dangerous, without even having exact numbers. 

The point I tried to make is that I do not care much about airport security. The total chance I'll die this year from a butt bomber is N x R, N the number of flights I take this year, and R the rate of such a bomber being on any flight. I can either reduce N or R, and the outcome will be the same.

But because we fear accidents and terrorist attacks, we are better safe than sorry, even if we could find great comfort in those numbers.

Even if zero terrorist threats are the ultimate goal, the costs to attain that are absolutely enormous. The airport security hassle, the costs to upgrade cockpit doors and whatever else, has cost the U.S. a lot - and we thought 3000 deaths on September 11 were enough!

IMHO, terrorists do not want to kill people. It's a nuisance to them. They want to strike fear into our minds, and precipitate an economic disaster. So one can say 9/11 was a masterpiece in economical warfare (an estimated 500'000 $ in flight training, costs of living, other preparations, and one not very credible source I just googled said that lost air traffic revenue already amounts to $ 10 billion).

Terrorists almost always win. Because fighting them costs us much more than they are spending to fight us.

Quoting cmf (Reply 41):
You need to expand on this. from where did you get 0.81%? Is it how many of Swiss 26 - 35 year olds die per year at this time?

The 0.81 percent chance of dying per year is a crude number I've calculated by dividing the number of all-cause deaths per year by the number of inhabitants. Because I'm not yet in the age of cancer, strokes and heart attacks, so I probably live much, much safer than this 0.81 percent chance.

And what would happen when we completely removed airport security?

I think the same number of deaths like in the 1950ies and 1960ies would occur. Deaths by terrorist attacks will increase, sure, but in the since the 1950ies, aviation safety has increased by large factor (think of improved ATC, maintenance, pilot training, CRM), so everybody who was happy with flying back in 1950 should just continue - but the big caveat is that I don't have the data on that, and that I would have to look for them.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
cmf
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RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:27 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 42):
Just checking travelers' passports is very cheap, and already gives a lot of safety in comparison to no checks at all.

Metal detectors don't cost more than 20'000 $ (so I think), and they do not impede the flow of passengers. For the money spent, it's still a very efficient measure.

And then, backscatter X-ray or other nude scanners. Costs a lot, lot more compared to metal detectors. Gain? You'll catch the extremely few people who actually want to fly with bomb that has no metal parts.

And now they think about making it impossible to carry butt bombs?

Standing still is unfortunately similar to moving backwards. The question is if this is how you move along.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 42):
The point I tried to make is that I do not care much about airport security.

I do care about security, at airports and at other places. I do think a lot of what is done today is extremely inefficient and often a show to state you do things, but I have no doubt security is needed.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 42):
Terrorists almost always win. Because fighting them costs us much more than they are spending to fight us.

Actually, terrorists very rarely win. They get a few blows but look at how infrequent they are and how they almost never get what they want in the end.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 42):
The 0.81 percent chance of dying per year is a crude number I've calculated by dividing the number of all-cause deaths per year by the number of inhabitants.

0.81% indicate a life expectancy of ~123 years. I think there is something wrong but it isn't an important number for the discussion  
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 42):
I think the same number of deaths like in the 1950ies and 1960ies would occur. Deaths by terrorist attacks will increase, sure, but in the since the 1950ies, aviation safety has increased by large factor (think of improved ATC, maintenance, pilot training, CRM), so everybody who was happy with flying back in 1950 should just continue - but the big caveat is that I don't have the data on that, and that I would have to look for them.

I don't think the 50's and 60's accident rates would be accepted by today's flying population. Fortunately we will never find out. Anyway, it isn't what we talk about  

What we do talk about is the effects of terrorist and other criminal usage of aviation. Look at how passenger numbers drop after each event, even when there is only suspicion of criminal activity. We can spend enormous money and still come out ahead from just avoiding one such event. Problem is we don't know how many events we stopped.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
flyingturtle
Posts: 4606
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:44 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
Problem is we don't know how many events we stopped.

As a statistician, I humbly propose a randomized controlled trial. 

Otherwise - good points that get me thinking. I'll call back into this thread.  

David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
time2lyme
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:46 pm

RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:02 pm

[quote=flybhx764,reply=30]

You seem to have no concept of personal space and privacy. The psychological aftermath of rectal exams would be huge!

Never mind though, I see a massive business opportunity for selling buritos, chilli dogs, chilli burgers and, well, anything with chilli in it, right outside the departure hall. A few weeks aftermath of those chillis and the TSA wouldn't be able to find anyone to do the job  

Just picture the scene....
TSA Agent: "Right Sir, trousers down for an examination, please"
Passenger complies and bends over
TSA Agent (sniffing): "Oh hell! Not another one! Quick - DUCK!!"   
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 44):
As a statistician, I humbly propose a randomized controlled trial. 

How would you do that and get reliable numbers? You would be trying to prove that something that didn't happen would have happened. You would expect people who don't want to be caught to answer truthfully against their better judgement. You'd also expect people who support the idea but who would never follow thru to answer truthfully. So IMO it would be an example of SISO.

However, the more I learn about statistics the more I understand I don't understand... Love to learn more.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 44):
Otherwise - good points that get me thinking. I'll call back into this thread.

Looking forward to it.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 2793
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:47 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 9):
You can kill two birds with one stone - MRI scanners.

Can't tell if you're half-serious or not. But MRI's cannot be used if there is *any* metal anywhere near them - that means things like zippers (as in pants or skirts), certain types of teeth fillings, or artificial joints. An elderly person with a metal hip would probably be killed by an MRI machine - doctors don't use them on patients with metal in their bodies for that reason. Everyone else has to strip down to their underwear and go through the machine in a magnetically shielded room with no metal in it.

Obviously not very practical for the TSA.

Seems to me that the only real option for the TSA here (other than ignoring it, which is probably the best thing they could do) is to just crank up the radiation they're blasting us with...
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
skywaymanaz
Posts: 636
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 1:00 pm

RE: TSA Nightmare For Passengers Coming Soon

Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:00 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 47):
Seems to me that the only real option for the TSA here (other than ignoring it, which is probably the best thing they could do) is to just crank up the radiation they're blasting us with...

Alledgedly the X-Ray back scatter machines were to be completely gone from all US airports by June 1, 2013. I don't believe you can "crank up" the millimeter wave to get an internal scan. At least not without it approaching MRI intensity which as stated above could cause life threatening complications for those with metal implants.

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