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TheRedBaron
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Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:56 pm

Here is this great video:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=097_1371095922#G14E2YRsCwWkOYCT.01

I guess our friends in Lion Air crash experienced something similar.

Its incredible to see there is no runway after so much clear view and the crew declaring Go around right away....

TRB
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TheRedBaron
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Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:02 pm

Here are some coments of the guy that captured the situation :

Quote:
"The approach flown was a CAT I ILS.

I could see the rain column approach from the other side of the field so I got out my phone camera from the jump seat.

You can hear the GPWS announce minimums at 200' AGL, and shortly after all visibility is lost due to rain. You do not hear the "50" foot call out during the touch and go, but it had to be close.

The HUD really provides incredible center-line tracking, although you can't see the symbology from the camera angle.

Ultimately, we had plenty of fuel on board and we where given radar vectors back for another approach. In just 15 minutes the rain had passed and the sun was coming out."

Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=097_1371095922#4rYIp4LVM6bRFYyX.99

Better Safe than sorry !
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nutsaboutplanes
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:56 am

That is quite a video. Its like the runway simply vanished right before their eyes.
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Acey559
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:11 am

I've had something like this happen to me. We were flying into Yow and had a clear view of the runway all the way down to about 100 feet. All of a sudden we were in the thick of large amounts of blowing snow. It was a very weird sensation but it was previously reported and knew it would happen. Good job by this crew who were taken by surprise when the visibility went to nil.
 
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:46 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 1):
Better Safe than sorry !

Not only that, it was a regulatory requirement that they go around. He couldn't see the runway below decision height.

What airline was it? It was a 737, but I couldn't see enough to tell if t
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:15 am

Its a Boeing Business Jet. AFAIK.

Its scary they fly with no visibility for like 1 minute...

TRB
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mandala499
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:16 am

Same video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtlS0sxFlHk

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
What airline was it? It was a 737, but I couldn't see enough to tell if t

According to the youtube version it's a BBJ.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Thread starter):
I guess our friends in Lion Air crash experienced something similar.

Its incredible to see there is no runway after so much clear view and the crew declaring Go around right away....

This kind of rain is what we face regularly... some on the Lion DPS crash topic didn't believe that something like this don't or cannot happen... it does. Sometimes get this, do one go-around, and before you reach the holding point to start the approach again, the rain disappears already.

The difference between this crew and the Lion Air crew is that one called the go-around in time.

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bomber996
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:39 am

While training for my Instrument rating my instructor would pull this kind of stuff on me in the simulators. I always thought it was BS being able to see the runway all the way until minimums and the have it vanish.

Amazing video!

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barney captain
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:15 am

I wonder what caused the FLT CTRL Master Caution @ 1:18 on the go-around?

[Edited 2013-06-14 01:34:12]
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zeke
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:36 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
He couldn't see the runway below decision height.

A CAT 1 ILS does not have a DH, they have a MDA.
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:39 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 9):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
He couldn't see the runway below decision height.

A CAT 1 ILS does not have a DH, they have a MDA.

Is that new? I thought DH was 200 feet for Cat 1. I know there has recently been some re-definition of the categories though.
 
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:54 pm

I'm curious where this was...am I missing someplace where it blatantly says?
 
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:54 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 8):

Could it be slat retraction?
 
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:02 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10):
Is that new? I thought DH was 200 feet for Cat 1. I know there has recently been some re-definition of the categories though.

Nothing new, many aircraft fly CAT 1 approaches every day and do not have a radar altimeter.
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:58 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 5):
Its scary they fly with no visibility for like 1 minute...

That's what we train IFR for  
Quoting barney captain (Reply 8):
I wonder what caused the FLT CTRL Master Caution @ 1:18 on the go-around?

Very surprised too. I cannot remember what the trigger could have been from my time in the 733 MCC

Quoting zeke (Reply 9):
A CAT 1 ILS does not have a DH, they have a MDA.

Did something change? I thought MDA was a terminology used for NPAs only, which a CAT I clearly isn't. Please feel free to enlighten us Or is this something more common in the US and not Europe?
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:12 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 5):
Its scary they fly with no visibility for like 1 minute...

Standard missed approach procedure, albeit at the last second.

Quoting zeke (Reply 9):
A CAT 1 ILS does not have a DH, they have a MDA.
Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
Nothing new, many aircraft fly CAT 1 approaches every day and do not have a radar altimeter.


You're partially correct.

A CAT I ILS does not have a DH, but a CAT I ILS *does* have a DA (decision altitude), not an MDA. Functionally, DA/DH are essentially the same thing except the DA is MSL and is measured only by the altimeter whereas a DH is AGL and requires a radar altimeter. MDA (minimum descent altitude) is only for non-precision approaches.

[Edited 2013-06-14 07:29:14]
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:26 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
Nothing new, many aircraft fly CAT 1 approaches every day and do not have a radar altimeter.

What commercial airplanes don't have a Radio Altimeter - or 3 of them in the case of Boeing airplanes?

Quoting josepha1 (Reply 12):
Could it be slat retraction?

I don't think Slat Retraction would cause a Master Caution. That's a normal crew selected state. Boeing's philosophy is that you don't alert the crew to normal stuff - quiet and dark cockpit.

I don't know the 737 very well since it's a non-EICAS airplane. Is that how they annunciate Altitude Alert?
 
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:31 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 16):
What commercial airplanes don't have a Radio Altimeter - or 3 of them in the case of Boeing airplanes?

It's not necessarily a limitation of the aircraft. Many smaller airports only have CAT I ILS procedures due to the limitations on their equipment.
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:08 pm

Can any one explain me, why Captain wearing sun glasses/glares and why there is that shed is on (cockpit windshield) ?

Good decision tho, fantastic skills.
 
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 18):
and why there is that shed is on (cockpit windshield) ?

I'm not positive, but are you referring to the HUD (Heads Up Display)? If so, it displays information for the pilot on a see-through screen so they can see critical flight information without having to go "head down" to look at the cockpit instruments. From the angle of the video, it doesn't look like anything is there, but it is.


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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 14):
I thought MDA was a terminology used for NPAs only, which a CAT I clearly isn't. Please feel free to enlighten us Or is this something more common in the US and not Europe?

The CAT 1 ILS usually has a DH of 200' reference to the runway, however that 200' is not 200' below the aircraft at the point we need to go around. You cannot use the 200' figure as that is not how the chart is designed.

Imagine an runway on a volcanic island 1000' above water with almost a vertical drop at the end of the runway to the sea below. The chart will have a MDA(DH) or DA(DH) on the chart depends on who you use to supply your charts and it might say 1200 (200). If you were go wait until your RADALT read 200' you would hit the runway, or the cliff before it, as at the MDA/DA you should be going around at an altitude of 1200' which is 200' above the 1000' runway when on the glideslope. It is the intersection of that altimeter reading and the glideslope which makes the triangle to give you 200' above the runway.

At a different airport, which they have suitable terrain leading up to the runway which has been surveyed with a CAT 2 approach, we would go around at around 100' reference the runway, on the chart it might read 100 (115) we use the 115 figure at that is the height the RADALT will read over the terrain when the aircraft 100' above the runway when on the glideslope.

This gets blurred a little where some people have special authorizations based upon HUDs etc, I am just referring to the standard rules.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 15):
You're partially correct

Dont think so, maybe you are thinking country (FAA) specific terms ?

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 15):
A CAT I ILS does not have a DH, but a CAT I ILS *does* have a DA (decision altitude), not an MDA.

MDA=DA where vertical guidance is available.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 15):
MDA (minimum descent altitude) is only for non-precision approaches.

I think you are quoting a FAA AIM defn, which is not universal. The universal defn is MDA=DA where vertical guidance is available, which covers various approach types. This gets the brain thinking in term of altitude in case the GS fails, one can revert to the LOC.

I think in the US they say the FAF=FAP which is not universal either.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 16):
What commercial airplanes don't have a Radio Altimeter - or 3 of them in the case of Boeing airplanes?

Anything I think below 9 seats and 12500 lb/ 5700 kg I do not think was required. Something like a King Air B200, CAT 1 ILS in the olden days with things called marker beacons.....

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 17):
It's not necessarily a limitation of the aircraft. Many smaller airports only have CAT I ILS procedures due to the limitations on their equipment.

Or terrain, LOC/runways mismatch etc.
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:44 pm

Somewhat interesting video. Any pilot/crew worth his salt should be able to go around/missed approach anytime up to just prior to touchdown and make it a non event. CAT IIIa and IIIb missed approaches are routinely done from 50 feet and 35 feet.
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 19):

Cheers ! I understood now.
 
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:45 pm

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 19):
I'm not positive, but are you referring to the HUD (Heads Up Display)? If so, it displays information for the pilot on a see-through screen so they can see critical flight information without having to go "head down" to look at the cockpit instruments. From the angle of the video, it doesn't look like anything is there, but it is.
Quoting dashman (Reply 21):
HUD is one of the key safety innovations in recent years. The flying pilot pilot stays heads up through out all phases of flight. Including during the critical phase of instruments to visual or visual to instruments.


At the risk of going slightly off topic...

I was sruck by the fact that the pilot had a HUD.

I know that HUD's have been used in military aircraft for some time now... it has always struck me as odd that they haven't been adopted widely in civilian use. Just yesterday I was reading a thread about joystick v. wheel in Tech/Ops, where several posts referred to the pilot's need to drop his or her eyes to instruments, referring to the fact that this can cause distraction at a critical moment.

I do recall seeing a HUD is the CSeries cockpit mockup, and now apparently the Boeing BBJ also. Are there any other aircraft out there that come equipped with HUDs?
 
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:39 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 23):
Are there any other aircraft out there that come equipped with HUDs?

787 has dual HUD as baseline. It's been optional on the 737 for years, not just the BBJ. AS, WN, AA and I think DL have them on all their 737s, among other airlines, AFAIK. I think FedEx puts them on their 777s. Heck, AS had them on their 727s and PSA had them on their MD-80s so they certainly aren't a new thing either.

I think HUD's are on a lot more airplanes than you realized.
 
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:56 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 23):
Are there any other aircraft out there that come equipped with HUDs?

Most large bizjets now come equipped with HUD and EVS (Enhanced Vision/Infared imagery). Standard equipment on Globals and Gulfstreams delivered in the past several years. Others too I am sure.
 
flymia
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:01 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 16):
I don't think Slat Retraction would cause a Master Caution. That's a normal crew selected state. Boeing's philosophy is that you don't alert the crew to normal stuff - quiet and dark cockpit.

Looks like its the "flt cont" warning. Why it went off I am not sure.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 23):
Are there any other aircraft out there that come equipped with HUDs?

Plenty of airliners have HUDs now. As the post above says a few airliners they are normal equipment now and many airline have installed them on their planes. Not that uncommon these days.
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barney captain
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 16):
I don't think Slat Retraction would cause a Master Caution. That's a normal crew selected state. Boeing's philosophy is that you don't alert the crew to normal stuff - quiet and dark cockpit.

You are correct, the Master Caution will only alert for an abnormal state.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 16):
I don't know the 737 very well since it's a non-EICAS airplane. Is that how they annunciate Altitude Alert?

No, the Altitude Alert is a horn with an annunciation on the PFD. This is clearly a Master Caution with what appears to be an associated FLT CONT. Look at the "6 pack" immediately to the right of the Master Caution. The amber Master Caution light will alert you, while the 6 pack informs you as to what has malfunctioned. The 6 pack is configured to roughly match the overhead panel. The first item in the upper left on the Captains side is FLT CONT.

Very strange. The only time I've seen that on a go-around is during gear retraction with a degraded A hydraulic system. If the engine driven A hydraulic pump has failed, the electric driven A pump will suffer a momentary drop in pressure as the gear retracts, causing a momentary FLT CONT master caution.

Look at the pic here;

http://www.b737.org.uk/warningsystems.htm
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PITrules
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:45 pm

Not the first time the tower forgot to turn the runway lights on, and won't be the last time either
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bennett123
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:55 pm

I am not a pilot, but IMO, the pilot's action was spot on.

Even if he was on the runway centreline, he would have landed very long, (he was almost over the threshold at decision height).

If you add a runway that was wet, (possibly more like a lake) then he would probably have been straight off.

IMO, if you have enough fuel to GA, then why take a chance.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:03 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 20):
MDA=DA where vertical guidance is available.

My understanding:

DA (DH) = point on a GS where the MDA equals the MAP.

Once you arrive at an MDA, you can stay at that altitude until the MAP. That of course would make no sense if you are on a GS.

Am I wrong? I've only read about this stuff. . .
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hivue
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 16):
Is that how they annunciate Altitude Alert?
Quoting barney captain (Reply 27):
No, the Altitude Alert is a horn with an annunciation on the PFD.

In fact it sounds like the altitude alerter goes off at the 1:09 mark.
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barney captain
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RE: Losing Sight Of Runway At Minimums Video.

Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:23 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 31):
In fact it sounds like the altitude alerter goes off at the 1:09 mark.

Correct - that is the altitude alert horn.

I was able to hear the "flaps up" call just prior to the FLT CONT master caution. This would indicate a possible abnormality with the B system hydraulics.
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