WestWing
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The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:55 am

Per Puget Sound Test Flights, ANAs 777-281ER JA745A (L/N 1112) made her first flight on Thursday.

There is a very old 77E order for Asiana still on the books. Are Asiana still planning to take delivery of that order? If Asiana do not intend to take delivery of that 77E, then this ANA airframe may be the last 777-200ER ( # 421) built.
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tortugamon
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:21 am

Very interesting. It is very hard for me to believe that up to this month the 77E is the most produced variant of the 777. 77E =420 and 77W=406 as of the end of May.

I think the math works out that for any mission further than 1,500nm it is better to operate a 77L than a 77E which is similarly surprising to the statement above. An excellent aircraft for many customers in the late 90's early 2000's.

tortugamon
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:57 am

Interesting. On the Boeing Factory tour last month, I remember seeing this frame (L/N 1112) on its final assembly before it left the production hangar. I realized that this was one of the last B772ERs produced but now I wonder if it really is the last. Time will tell.
 
roseflyer
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:07 am

Asiana took delivery of a 772ER last year so I assume they will take another one which was ordered in 2008.
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Max Q
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:49 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 1):

I think the math works out that for any mission further than 1,500nm it is better to operate a 77L than a 77E

That mileage seems too low, the 77L is a lot heavier than the -E
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Stitch
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:22 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 1):
I think the math works out that for any mission further than 1,500nm it is better to operate a 77L than a 77E which is similarly surprising to the statement above.
Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):
That mileage seems too low, the 77L is a lot heavier than the -E

I believe it is closer to 2000nm. And while the 77L is heavier, it also incorporates a number of aerodynamic tweaks that help efficiency.
 
Joost
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:52 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
And while the 77L is heavier, it also incorporates a number of aerodynamic tweaks that help efficiency.

A number of which can be (and have been on a great scale) retrofitted to the 772, 77E and 773: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...03_09/pdfs/AERO_Q309_article02.pdf
 
SASMD82
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:11 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 1):

I think the math works out that for any mission further than 1,500nm it is better to operate a 77L than a 77E

That mileage seems too low, the 77L is a lot heavier than the -E

I think that as long as it is used for the ultra long haul destinations, it can be done profitable but for missions up to 10,000 km, the A330-300 has better performances with the A350-900 on its way. Not strange that the 772ER does not sell anymore, and neither the 77L (expensive fuel). But on the other hand, it killed the A343 and MD11.

However the bird (772ER) has changed the way of longhaul flying. Great but noisy bird.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:19 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
I believe it is closer to 2000nm. And while the 77L is heavier, it also incorporates a number of aerodynamic tweaks that help efficiency.

Don't the engines have improved SFC, too?
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:41 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):

I believe it is closer to 2000nm. And while the 77L is heavier, it also incorporates a number of aerodynamic tweaks that help efficiency.

Seems low given the much heavier weights and the only tweak is sexed up wings, also seems low given the order book.
 
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zkojq
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:10 am

This topic has been discussed a few times. I think Boeing will continue to deliver the odd 777-200ER, though certainly not at the rate it previously did so.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 1):
I think the math works out that for any mission further than 1,500nm it is better to operate a 77L than a 77E which is similarly surprising to the statement above.

Hardly justifies a subfleet. Particularly in the case of Asiana where they have no GE90 engines in their fleet and have no GE90 powered aircraft on order. I would certainly expect Asiana to take delivery.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 3):

  
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Stitch
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:18 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 9):
Seems low given the much heavier weights and the only tweak is sexed up wings, also seems low given the order book.

Most 777-200LR customers are new to the 777 family so that they chose that model over the 777-200ER reinforces the claims that the 777-200LR is more efficient even on shorter stage-lengths.

As to why more were not sold, most existing 777 customers already had their 777-200ER fleets in place and were not topping up. Though of those that did, some (like DL) chose the 77L instead of more 77Es. Also, Airbus had consistently improved the A330-300 to the point that it was capable of performing a significant portion of 777-200ER missions with better economics. As such, that shrunk the market for the 777-200LR to missions with high payloads and long ranges.
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:00 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Most 777-200LR customers are new to the 777 family so that they chose that model over the 777-200ER reinforces the claims that the 777-200LR is more efficient even on shorter stage-lengths.

As to why more were not sold, most existing 777 customers already had their 777-200ER fleets in place and were not topping up. Though of those that did, some (like DL) chose the 77L instead of more 77Es. Also, Airbus had consistently improved the A330-300 to the point that it was capable of performing a significant portion of 777-200ER missions with better economics. As such, that shrunk the market for the 777-200LR to missions with high payloads and long ranges.

   Don't think I could have said it any better. For this reason alone is why I think the 777-8LX will do well when launched. If more people knew this they would stop labeling the 77L as a "inefficient" aircraft
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:44 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):

But then again, most 77L customers also bought the 77W, so more commonality as opposed to a 77E together with 77W which don't share the same powerplant.




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xdlx
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:44 pm

Amazing that UA never ordered the LR or W versions.
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:12 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 14):

Amazing that UA never ordered the LR or W versions.

I can't imagine an airline can profitably operate a LR 777 unless you carry 50% premium passengers on top of a lot of economy plus passengers.......it is way too much plane with the current fuel prices (IMHO).

But, I agree with you that the 77W could be the easiest 747 replacement. You can operate them side by side with the 789/7810 and A359/A3510.
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:38 pm

I did not realize that the 772ER is still in production. I would assume that it would stop with the introduction of the new 777 variant.
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PA515
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:31 pm

Quoting WestWing (Thread starter):
There is a very old 77E order for Asiana still on the books. Are Asiana still planning to take delivery of that order?

Looks like it. There was a Matt Cawby photo in the last week with a partly painted OZ tail in the Fuel Dock area next to the 6th 200LR for ET.

The last 200(ER) and the last 200(LR) on order.

Found the photo
http://paineairport.com/kpae6347.htm

PA515

[Edited 2013-06-15 12:33:30]

[Edited 2013-06-15 12:54:13]

[Edited 2013-06-15 12:58:01]
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:48 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 15):
I can't imagine an airline can profitably operate a LR 777 unless you carry 50% premium passengers on top of a lot of economy plus passengers.......it is way too much plane with the current fuel prices (IMHO).

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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Though of those that did, some (like DL) chose the 77L instead of more 77Es.

77E couldn't handle LAX-SYD or ATL-JNB.
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 16):

I did not realize that the 772ER is still in production. I would assume that it would stop with the introduction of the new 777 variant.

Why not? All 772-series aircraft use most of the same parts (the engines being the biggest difference) and the same tooling for assembly. And as long as replacement parts exclusively for the 772 continue to be manufactured for existing operators, those parts can be used to build new aircraft.

What I wonder is why any airline that operates the 77W wouldn't just convert their remaining 772 orders to 77L.
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:39 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
What I wonder is why any airline that operates the 77W wouldn't just convert their remaining 772 orders to 77L.

After the 77E mentioned in the opening post is delivered to NH there is only one unfilled 77E order and that's part of an order placed over 5 years ago. I personally doubt that any more 77Es will be built.
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
What I wonder is why any airline that operates the 77W wouldn't just convert their remaining 772 orders to 77L.

Might have something to do with the extra 50M or so Boeing would expect from such a conversion, and if you're paying that much why not go full hog and spec a 77W? Not as if there's many 15+ hour missions out there.

Or that the 77L needs to fly a lot longer than 2000NM to beat a 77E in the DOC vs Revenue game.

Or because the A350 and 787-9 are just around the corner, having between them killed the 77E/L very dead indeed.

Perhaps even a combination of it all.
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 14):
Amazing that UA never ordered the LR or W versions.

They had the 747-400 so they didn't need the 777-300ER and until recently they operated their 777-200ERs below the maximum rated TOW and thrust (to save money on fees and maintenance) so they didn't need everything a 77E could give them, much less a 77L.  
Quoting brilondon (Reply 16):
I did not realize that the 772ER is still in production. I would assume that it would stop with the introduction of the new 777 variant.

If you're willing to pay for it, Boeing is willing to build it (within reason).  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
What I wonder is why any airline that operates the 77W wouldn't just convert their remaining 772 orders to 77L.
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 22):
Might have something to do with the extra 50M or so Boeing would expect from such a conversion...

I've heard that the difference in Average Sales Price between a 777-200ER and 777-200LR was far, far, closer than the difference in Average List Price. I expect a significant part of that is GE's willingness to make deals on the engines (especially if it is to convert a customer who would order a 77E with RR or PW power).

NH's recent 777-200ERs are said to have been compensation for 787 delivery delays. As for OZ, I am guessing they need them for missions beyond the capabilities of their A330-300s and they could not wait for their A350-900s.
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:23 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
77E couldn't handle LAX-SYD or ATL-JNB.

Hmm why do you think it couldn't handle either? I admit the JNB-ATL routing might be difficult on strong headwind days but LAX-SYD should be easy to accomplish considering it has a higher range than the 744 and 744ER


77E range =7725nm
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:57 pm

A 77E can do LAX-SYD, although not with the uplift of the 77L. In the early days of its LAX-SYD route, DL actually subbed in the 77E occasionally when they couldn't logistically work in the 77L
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:03 pm

Quoting waly777 (Reply 24):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
77E couldn't handle LAX-SYD or ATL-JNB.

Hmm why do you think it couldn't handle either? I admit the JNB-ATL routing might be difficult on strong headwind days but LAX-SYD should be easy to accomplish considering it has a higher range than the 744 and 744ER


77E range =7725nm

Also have to consider the economics, cargo capacity etc.
 
WestWing
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:20 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 17):
Looks like it. There was a Matt Cawby photo in the last week with a partly painted OZ tail in the Fuel Dock area next to the 6th 200LR for ET.

The last 200(ER) and the last 200(LR) on order.

Thank you so much for pointing out that photograph. So it is the Asiana aircraft pictured there which may be the last 77E built. I assume we will know the line number of that frame fairly soon.

Both the NH and OZ 77Es referenced in this thread are equipped with P&W engines. There are only four other remaining orders for Boeing civilian aircraft with P&W engines (767-300s). The decades-long association between Pratt&Whitney and Boeing Commercial Airplanes appears to be destined to become exclusively military (KC46).

On the 777-200LR topic, apart from the last -200LR for ET, Boeing's O&D site shows three other -200LR orders. One is a BBJ for an undisclosed customer and two were ordered by Turkmenistan Airlines. Turkmenistan's first 77L is reportedly in service as a BBJ for VIP/Govt. use. Perhaps these two are intended for commercial airline use?

[Edited 2013-06-15 22:23:32]
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zkojq
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:06 pm

Aeroflot's website say they are expecting to take delivery of 777-200s this year. The order was placed two years ago and includes 777-300ERs also.
http://www.aeroflot.com/cms/en/about/company_profile
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-300ers-and-two-777-200ers-354149/
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bmibaby737
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:30 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 28):
Aeroflot's website say they are expecting to take delivery of 777-200s this year. The order was placed two years ago and includes 777-300ERs also.

I believe they converted them all to 300ERs as the only orders on Boeings website are:

Aeroflot - Russian Airlines Russian Federation Europe 777-300ER GE 28-Feb-2011 8
Aeroflot - Russian Airlines Russian Federation Europe 777-300ER GE 11-May-2011 8
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:35 pm

From Boeing's website:

422 ordered/420 delivered

Remaining deliveries 1-ANA, 1-AAR
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 30):
From Boeing's website:

422 ordered/420 delivered

Remaining deliveries 1-ANA, 1-AAR

It hasn't been updated to include the past month yet. The ANA (JA745A) has already been delivered (saw the departure in person).
 
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Stitch
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:53 am

Quoting bmibaby737 (Reply 29):
I believe (SU) converted them all to 300ERs...

That is correct
 
HeeseokKoo
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:16 am

Asiana is getting one 772ER in July, its 13th 772ER, and it will be used for upgrading product to JFK beginning July 22nd. I'm surprised to know that it will be possibly the last 772ER ever built.
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:45 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
I've heard that the difference in Average Sales Price between a 777-200ER and 777-200LR was far, far, closer than the difference in Average List Price. I expect a significant part of that is GE's willingness to make deals on the engines (especially if it is to convert a customer who would order a 77E with RR or PW power).

I totally believe this! What basically happens is that Boeing themselves would come to an airline and show charts with 777-200LR inferior to 777-200ER on operating cost (whatever deals GE makes on the purchase price, the maintenance on the GE90 is far greater than on any of the -200ER engines and landing fees will also be higher; if pilot pay or nav fees are MTOW based, you have another potential cost hit) so an airline would be reluctant to pay much more for the performance. Most of the revenue benefit of the LR is on the payload/cargo side (rather than on the range--there are very few desirable ULH routes out there), and the cargo market has tanked in recent years.

So in my view the -LR has little to do with the -ER demise. As above posters mentioned, the 787 would have made the -200ER obsolete, then the 787 delays handed it a lifeline, but Airbus also improved the A330 quite dramatically... Personally, I am a big fan of 777-200ER (my favorite widebody, when it's 9 abreast--I would fly on it rather than on the 787) but I too can recognize the inevitable!
 
WestWing
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 33):
Asiana is getting one 772ER in July, its 13th 772ER, and it will be used for upgrading product to JFK beginning July 22nd. I'm surprised to know that it will be possibly the last 772ER ever built.

Thanks for the confirmation. By the way, the OZ 77E (ln 1117 or 1118 (?) ) has not made her first flight yet. Perhaps this one is being painted on-site at PAE and will make first flight in full livery.
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PA515
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:04 pm

Quoting WestWing (Reply 35):
Thanks for the confirmation. By the way, the OZ 77E (ln 1117 or 1118 (?) ) has not made her first flight yet. Perhaps this one is being painted on-site at PAE and will make first flight in full livery.

The OZ 77E should be L/N 1117 and a JJ 77W L/N 1118. The JJ aircraft made an appearance a few days after the OZ.

PA515
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 1):
I think the math works out that for any mission further than 1,500nm it is better to operate a 77L than a 77E
Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
I believe it is closer to 2000nm.

Huh? This was closer to 3500+nm.

Quoting joost (Reply 6):
A number of which can be (and have been on a great scale) retrofitted to the 772, 77E and 773: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...2.pdf

Wow. I'm definitely no aeronautical engineer, but I can easily see how the new, smaller 737-style vortex generators would cause less drag than those old blacksmith VGs.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
77E couldn't handle LAX-SYD

According to whom??? JNB has its own issues being high. It could easily go ATL-JNB, but not the reverse.

Quoting ChicagoFlyer (Reply 34):
So in my view the -LR has little to do with the -ER demise.

What demise? Of course the LR didn't have anything to do with it. Your post hits on a lot of important points.

People, the ER just became saturated in the market for its time period and potential. The LR didn't offer much over that based on what operators were using. Most operators who had the ER or competing planes A343-313X had no need for LRs. Even if they did, they would have had to pay tens of millions, just to replace an almost comparable ER? Doesn't make sense.
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:45 am

It is now five weeks since l/n 1117 for OZ was first pictured out of the factory floor on Matt Cawby's website but this aircraft still has not flown. This long a time is a bit unusual for a 777 so I'm curious now what the delay is due to. Per the information in Reply 33 above, it seems OZ had originally planned an in-service date of July 22 for this frame - this is all before the hull loss in SFO.
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:00 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 36):
Quoting WestWing (Reply 35):
Thanks for the confirmation. By the way, the OZ 77E (ln 1117 or 1118 (?) ) has not made her first flight yet. Perhaps this one is being painted on-site at PAE and will make first flight in full livery.

The OZ 77E should be L/N 1117 and a JJ 77W L/N 1118. The JJ aircraft made an appearance a few days after the OZ.

Is Asina going to need to repiace the 777 they lost in San Francisco?   
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tristan7977
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:39 am

This means no more RR Trent 800, PW4098, and less powerful versions of the GE90.
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:35 pm

Doesn't AA have some 77Es still on order? I would assume that some of these will convert to 77W. Yet, I bet there are routes in which a 777-200 makes better sense than the -300. So, would AA shift those 77E orders to 77L orders? Since they are now flying the 77W, it probably makes no differnence if they get RR-powered planes or GE-powered planes for future 777-200s.
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:48 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 41):
Doesn't AA have some 77Es still on order? I would assume that some of these will convert to 77W

These orders have already been converted to the 77W
 
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DocLightning
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:04 pm

It's interesting. The 777-200 frame is dead except for the freighter variant. Not surprising, given that Airbus replaced it with their newer HGW A333s and Boeing with the 789/J.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 39):
Is Asina going to need to repiace the 777 they lost in San Francisco?

They might, but there is no reason that they have to buy a new one. Plenty of airlines are planning on selling their 772's. Alternatively, they could replace it with a new A333.
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HeeseokKoo
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:41 am

Quoting WestWing (Reply 38):
It is now five weeks since l/n 1117 for OZ was first pictured out of the factory floor on Matt Cawby's website but this aircraft still has not flown. This long a time is a bit unusual for a 777 so I'm curious now what the delay is due to. Per the information in Reply 33 above, it seems OZ had originally planned an in-service date of July 22 for this frame - this is all before the hull loss in SFO.

OZ already delayed its deployment to July 29th. Between 22nd and 28th, already tight 772 rotation (due to the accident) becomes even more tight as OZ won't cancel any flight.
 
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:39 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
77E couldn't handle LAX-SYD or ATL-JNB.

As to the first part of your post, UA 117 and UA 895 would like to disagree with you. Both are longer than Lax-Syd distance wise and both operate with 777-200er equipment. I could also add Ewr-Bom at almost the same distance as Ord-Hkg, again, longer than Lax-Syd.
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:35 pm

Matt Cawby has a photo of HL8284 coming out of the paint hanger on the 13th:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/microvolt/9282204692/
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FWAERJ
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:06 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 41):
Doesn't AA have some 77Es still on order? I would assume that some of these will convert to 77W.

If I remember correctly, AA converted all their 77Es on order to the 77W recently, at the same time they boosted their 77W orders.
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WestWing
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:02 am

HL8284 made her first ("B1") flights today, July 17 as BOE587 PAE to MWH and MWH to PAE.
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WestWing
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RE: The Last 777-200ER?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:56 pm

Asiana HL8284 (ln 1117) PAE to ICN delivery flight was on Friday July 26 (link: AAR274D).

If this is really the last 777-200ER, then there have been 422 frames of this variant delivered between 1997 (original moniker 777-200IGW) and 2013. Of course, the 77W will likely pass 422 next month.
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