G500
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A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:12 am

The early predictions were that LAX, LHR and CDG would get the most A380 flights by foreign airlines....

Followed by a second of group, JFK, FRA, SYD and NRT

LAX will have 7 by the end of this year:

Korean
Singapore
China Southern
Qantas
AF
BA
Emirates

How are LHR and CDG doing?
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:40 am

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
How are LHR and CDG doing?

I believe by the end of the year LHR will have:

BA
EK
QF
MH
SQ
and I believe TG

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...eraircraft/a380family/a380-routes/

[Edited 2013-06-15 02:42:58]
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
santos
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:43 am

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
How are LHR

Currently 26 routes, 4 airlines. With BA and TG starting flights later on this year.


London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB), EK008, 09:10 - 20:00 h
Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), EK007, 03:10 - 07:05 h

London (LHR) - Singapore (SIN), SQ317, 10:55 - 07:35 h (+1)
Singapore (SIN) - London (LHR), SQ318, 12:55 - 18:55 h

London (LHR) - Kuala Lumpur (KUL), MH003, 12:00 - 07:25h (+1) (1/3/6)
Kuala Lumpur (KUL) - London (LHR), MH002, 23:40 - 05:50 h (+1) (2/5/7)

London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB), EK002, 13:45 - 00:25 h (+1)
Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), EK001, 07:45 - 11:35 h

London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB), EK030, 16:35 – 03:25 h (+1)
Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), EK029, 09:40 – 13:30 h

London (LHR) - Singapore (SIN), SQ319, 18:30 - 15:20 h (+1)
Singapore (SIN) - London (LHR), SQ308, 09:05 - 15:30 h

London (LHR) - Singapore (SIN), SQ305, 20:00 - 15:50 h (+1) (2/3/4)
Singapore (SIN) - London (LHR), SQ306, 23:45 - 06:20 h (+1) (1/2/3)

London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB), EK004, 20:40 - 06:30 h (+1)
Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), EK003, 14:15 - 18:40 h

London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB) - Sydney (SYD), QF002, 21:30 - 05:10 h (+2)
-> London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB), QF002, 21:30 - 07:15 h (+1)
Sydney (SYD) - Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), QF001, 16:05 - 06:35 h (+1)
-> Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), QF001, 02:05 - 06:35 h

London (LHR) - Kuala Lumpur (KUL), MH001, 22:00 - 18:20 h (+1)
Kuala Lumpur (KUL) - London (LHR), MH004, 10:45 - 16:15 h

London (LHR) - Singapore (SIN), SQ321, 22:05 - 18:45 h (+1)
Singapore (SIN) - London (LHR), SQ322, 23:45 - 05:45 h (+1)

London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB), EK006, 22:15 – 08:05 h (+1)
Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), EK005, 15:45 – 20:15 h

London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB) - Melbourne (MEL), QF010, 22:30 - 05:15 h (+2)
-> London (LHR) - Dubai (DXB) , QF010, 22:30 - 08:15 h (+1)
Melbourne (MEL) - Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), QF009, 15:25 - 05:40 h (+1)
-> Dubai (DXB) - London (LHR), QF009, 01:10 - 05:40 h
 
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scbriml
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:49 am

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 1):
I believe by the end of the year LHR will have:

He did say "foreign airlines", so you'd have to drop BA from the LHR list.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
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PW100
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 3):
He did say "foreign airlines", so you'd have to drop BA from the LHR list.   

Well, BA is a foreign airline for a US poster . . .   
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
raaadek
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:02 pm

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 1):
http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...eraircraft/a380family/a380-routes/

Any reason why EK was not mentioned in the brief history of A380 on Airbus website?
 
Motorhussy
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:56 pm

But which airport has the most A380 movements a day? DXB.
come visit the south pacific
 
YYZAMS
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:25 am

Quoting PW100 (Reply 4):

yes, and I guess to a US poster only foreign airlines have the A380.
 
G500
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:50 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 6):
DXB has the most A380 movements? A380 movements mean nothing to me....

An airport/market can prove its weight by how many foreign airlines service it and type of aircraft they use to that airport (LAX, LHR, CDG, NRT etc), NOT by how many movements a subsidized airline can operate at its hub

[Edited 2013-06-15 23:55:47]
 
jumpjets
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:04 am

Quoting PW100 (Reply 4):
Well, BA is a foreign airline for a US poster . . .

Given that BAs parent IAG is a listed company and has sizeable Spanish and other non UK shareholders you could argue that BA is at least an International or even a foreign airline from a UK [but not EU] perspective - but that's a whole big argument we don't want to get into on a Sunday morning....
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:37 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 3):
He did say "foreign airlines", so you'd have to drop BA from the LHR list.
Quoting PW100 (Reply 4):
Well, BA is a foreign airline for a US poster . . .
Quoting jumpjets (Reply 9):
Given that BAs parent IAG is a listed company and has sizeable Spanish and other non UK shareholders you could argue that BA is at least an International or even a foreign airline from a UK [but not EU] perspective - but that's a whole big argument we don't want to get into on a Sunday morning....

Thank you for the support jumpjets, but regrettably it was more of me quickly reading what A380s were landing at an airport (totally missing the foreign airlines bit).

Weirdly though, I have lived in London for 2.5 years, and I still consider BA a foreign airline. It is hard to give up what you know to be domestic/foreign.

Regards,

Team
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
Azure
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:57 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
An airport/market can prove its weight by how many foreign airlines service it and type of aircraft they use to that airport

I have followed your approach and made a list of all the destinations served by A380 operators at today's date June 16th, 2013.
This list is subject to change in the next months (with BA introducing the aircraft in its fleet, AF ceasing A380 service to SIN and starting service to PVG, LH resuming MIA for the winter season, etc.)
I have included CZ domestic operations from CAN, but not included the hubs from where a given airline operates its A380 routes (ie CAN for CZ, FRA for LH, SYD for QF, etc).



A380 MAIN DESTINATIONS :
---------------------------------------------


HKG - 6 (SQ, EK, QF, KE, MH, TG)

LAX - 5 (SQ, QF, AF, KE, CZ)

CDG - 4 (SQ, EK, MH, TG)
JFK - 4 (SQ, EK, AF, KE)
LHR - 4 (SQ, EK, QF, MH)
NRT - 4 (SQ, AF, LH, TG)

FRA - 3 (SQ, KE, TG)
PEK - 3 (EK, LH, CZ)
SIN - 3 (EK, AF, LH)

JNB - 2 (AF, LH)
MEL - 2 (SQ, EK)
PVG - 2 (EK, CZ)
SFO - 2 (SQ, LH)
SYD - 2 (SQ, EK)

AKL - 1 (EK)
AMS - 1 (EK)
BKK - 1 (EK)
DME - 1 (EK)
DXB - 1 (QF)
FCO - 1 (EK)
IAD - 1 (AF)
IAH - 1 (LH)
ICN - 1 (EK)
JED - 1 (EK)
KUL - 1 (EK)
MAN - 1 (EK)
MUC - 1 (EK)
ZRH - 1 (SQ)

Please do correct me if I am wrong.
On a side note, we could draw some interesting geopolitical conclusions from this list and how it evolves in the future  

[Edited 2013-06-16 03:00:14]
 
Gemuser
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:49 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
I have included CZ domestic operations from AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN, but not included the hubs from where a given airline operates its A380 routes (ie AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN for CZ, FRA for LH, SYD for QF, etc).

Ok it's debatable but you should include QF @ MEL, its not usually regarded as an international hub (just ask the Victorians!). I believe the A380 aircraft USUALLY operate SYD-DXB-LHR-DXB-MEL-DXB-LHR-DXB-SYD AND SYD-LAX-MEL-LAX-SYD.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
G500
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:13 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):

Thanks that's what I was looking for.
 
sfjeff
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:41 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
Please do correct me if I am wrong.

One addition: SFO -1 (LH).
Jeff in Málaga
 
cmf
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:57 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
An airport/market can prove its weight by how many foreign airlines service it and type of aircraft

A very strange yardstick. In my book it is measured on the number of passengers. Don't care if the airline is domestic or foreign and don't care what equipment they use.

Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
NOT by how many movements a subsidized airline can operate at its hub

Love to see your support for claiming EK is subsidized.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
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Miami
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
Please do correct me if I am wrong.

MIA -1 (LH)
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
Azure
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:52 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 12):
it's debatable but you should include QF @ MEL

It is debatable indeed but MEL is not a destination per se from SYD, ie QF's hub...



Quoting SFJeff (Reply 14):

SFO is already included in the list and it is served by 2 carriers, LH and SQ !



Quoting Miami (Reply 16):

This list includes only flights at today's date. MIA is serviced seasonally by LH. Please read my post entirely !



Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
A very strange yardstick. In my book it is measured on the number of passengers. Don't care if the airline is domestic or foreign and don't care what equipment they use.

The purpose of this thread was to find out which airports were getting the most A380 flights.
 
StarAC17
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:24 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
Please do correct me if I am wrong.

YYZ - 1 (EK)
YUL - 1 (AF)
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
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lightsaber
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:11 pm

First, Airbus' recent update on their A380 flying map:
http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...eraircraft/a380family/a380-routes/

Obviously updated for Paris.  

If we're going to go off predictions, here is the original 'official' one. Now this 2007 Airbus presentation on where the A380 would fly (note: pdf):

http://www.mp.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Sc...de/2007/EWADE2007_Schmitt_A380.pdf

Comparing to page #13,
1. Indeed, zero A380 flights to South America
2. Australia to Asia is light (only HKG-SYD so far)
3. No flights yet to quite a few destinations.

One thing that stands out is that A380 production was supposed to be at a vastly higher rate than we've witnessed.   Partially as delays pushed the A380F operators to other pastures.

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
In my book it is measured on the number of passengers. Don't care if the airline is domestic or foreign and don't care what equipment they use.

   It is about connections and frequency.

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
NOT by how many movements a subsidized airline can operate at its hub

Love to see your support for claiming EK is subsidized.

I too would like to see evidence of EK's 'subsidy.' If anything, they are keeping broke Dubai afloat! G500, please read their annual reports.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
tsnamm
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
JFK - 4 (SQ, EK, AF, KE)

JFK also gets the LH 380 at least part of the year
 
PhilInBRN
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:52 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
ZRH - 1 (SQ)

ZRH will get a second A380 service in January 2014 when EK will change from 77W to A380 on the afternoon flight to DXB. I don't expect to see any other foreign airline to begin A380 service to Zurich in the short/medium term. The most likely candidate would be TG, but that would be a very long stretch since they only use their A346 to ZRH. But who knows what QR is up to in the next decade.
 
Viscount724
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
Please do correct me if I am wrong.

YYZ - 1 (EK)
YUL - 1 (AF)

AF is not operating the A380 to YUL currently. Their schedule shows 3 daily CDG-YUL: one 744, one 77W, one A343. I think the A380 has far too many premium seats for YUL in the summer which is largely low-yield leisure traffic.
 
sfjeff
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:52 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 17):
SFO is already included in the list and it is served by 2 carriers, LH and SQ !

Sorry; I overlooked that. However, SQ is not currently operating A380s to SFO. According to the SQ website. SQ1 and SQ15 are both 777-300ER. IIRC, SQ operated the A380 to SFO only for a short time last winter as a seasonal change.
Jeff in Málaga
 
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legacyins
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:05 am

LH only flies their A380 into SFO seasonally, ~ March to December. AF flew in their A 380 for one Summer and has not flown in for the past two Summers. SQ flew their A 380 to SFO last Winter for ~ 4 months. No word if they plan on returning for W13.

Rumor, EK will start A 380 service 3/14.
 
Azure
Posts: 624
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
YYZ - 1 (EK)

Correct. My mistake !


Quoting SFJeff (Reply 23):
According to the SQ website. SQ1 and SQ15 are both 777-300ER. IIRC, SQ operated the A380 to SFO only for a short time last winter as a seasonal change.

  


So the table after correction stands as follows :



A380 MAIN DESTINATIONS :
---------------------------------------------


HKG - 6 (SQ, EK, QF, KE, MH, TG)

LAX - 5 (SQ, QF, AF, KE, CZ)

CDG - 4 (SQ, EK, MH, TG)
JFK - 4 (SQ, EK, AF, KE)
LHR - 4 (SQ, EK, QF, MH)
NRT - 4 (SQ, AF, LH, TG)

FRA - 3 (SQ, KE, TG)
PEK - 3 (EK, LH, CZ)
SIN - 3 (EK, AF, LH)

JNB - 2 (AF, LH)
MEL - 2 (SQ, EK)
PVG - 2 (EK, CZ)
SYD - 2 (SQ, EK)

AKL - 1 (EK)
AMS - 1 (EK)
BKK - 1 (EK)
DME - 1 (EK)
DXB - 1 (QF)
FCO - 1 (EK)
IAD - 1 (AF)
IAH - 1 (LH)
ICN - 1 (EK)
JED - 1 (EK)
KUL - 1 (EK)
MAN - 1 (EK)
MUC - 1 (EK)
SFO - 1 (LH)
YYZ - 1 (EK)
ZRH - 1 (SQ)


I suggest we keep this chart updated every six months.



Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
If we're going to go off predictions, here is the original 'official' one. Now this 2007 Airbus presentation on where the A380 would fly (note: pdf):

http://www.mp.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Sc...de/2007/EWADE2007_Schmitt_A380.pdf

Comparing to page #13,
1. Indeed, zero A380 flights to South America
2. Australia to Asia is light (only HKG-SYD so far)
3. No flights yet to quite a few destinations.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
If we're going to go off predictions, here is the original 'official' one. Now this 2007 Airbus presentation on where the A380 would fly (note: pdf):

http://www.mp.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Sc...de/2007/EWADE2007_Schmitt_A380.pdf

Comparing to page #13,
1. Indeed, zero A380 flights to South America
2. Australia to Asia is light (only HKG-SYD so far)
3. No flights yet to quite a few destinations.

Thanks. Quite an interesting presentation indeed.
Airbus was probably optimistic about the number of destinations served.
Instead airlines seem:
- to concentrate their ops to a few hubs.
- send the whale to premium markets and not to leisure destinations.


1. South America : Both EK and AF are rumored to serve GRU with an A380 as from 2014
2. Add PVG-SYD later this year
3. French or British West Indies / Reunion (UU) or Mauritius and North / Central America are not served at all or not as well served as expected (yet ?)
 
tortugamon
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:12 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
First, Airbus' recent update on their A380 flying map

It looks like JFK, LAX, and NRT have a significant number of A380 movements yet no A380s call those airports home. Interesting.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
I too would like to see evidence of EK's 'subsidy.'

Well there was the original two aircraft and $10 Million in start-up capital back in 1985 that needs to be accounted for. No countries subsidize their airline fleet that much!    

tortugamon
 
Azure
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Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 pm

RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:38 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):
It looks like JFK, LAX, and NRT have a significant number of A380 movements yet no A380s call those airports home. Interesting.

And how about mentioning HKG as well ?  



Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
I too would like to see evidence of EK's 'subsidy.'

Well there was the original two aircraft and $10 Million in start-up capital back in 1985 that needs to be accounted for. No countries subsidize their airline fleet that much!    

Since EK has not been abiding by the IFRS norms so far, it is difficult to compare their accountings with their competitors'... However it is not doubtful EK has immensely benefitted from the credit export scheme granted by the aircraft manufacturing countries which has 1/eased access to financing and 2/ infuriated the European "Big Three" (AFKL/IAG/LH group), these latter not being allowed to use such scheme for their A380s purchase per an obscure WTO agreement dating from the 1980s...
 
cmf
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:11 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 17):
The purpose of this thread was to find out which airports were getting the most A380 flights.

Not a limit g500 respected in his comment that I responded to.

Quoting Azure (Reply 27):
Since EK has not been abiding by the IFRS norms so far, it is difficult to compare their accountings with their competitors'...

PwC put their name on a legal document stating they do.

"In our opinion, the accompanying consolidated financial statements present fairly, in
all material respects, the financial position of Emirates as of 31 March 2013, and its
financial performance and its cash flows for the year then ended in accordance with
International Financial Reporting Standards.

PricewaterhouseCoopers
5 May 2013

Warwick Hunt
Registered Auditor Number 643
Dubai, United Arab Emirates"
Emirates Annual Report 2012-2013, http://content.emirates.com/download...pdfs/report/annual_report_2013.pdf
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Azure
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:21 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 28):
Quoting Azure (Reply 27):
Since EK has not been abiding by the IFRS norms so far, it is difficult to compare their accountings with their competitors'...

PwC put their name on a legal document stating they do.

My bad ! And thanks for correcting me : I was forgetting the FY2013 was their first year to present accountings according to IFRS. Therefore you should read : "Since EK did not abide by the IFRS norms before 2013, it was difficult to compare their accountings with their competitors'.
However, the rest of my post remains valid and I maintain my statement on the credit export scheme.
 
cmf
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:35 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 29):
I was forgetting the FY2013 was their first year to present accountings according to IFRS. Therefore you should read : "Since EK did not abide by the IFRS norms before 2013, it was difficult to compare their accountings with their competitors'.

I only went back to 2008 but all of them are according to IFRS.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Azure
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:58 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 30):
I only went back to 2008 but all of them are according to IFRS.

I double checked and I was wrong on this point. The rest is valid, again.
 
cmf
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:11 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 31):
The rest is valid, again.

What other than using the EXIM bank remains? And why is EK using EXIM a big issue?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
mozart
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 29):
However, the rest of my post remains valid and I maintain my statement on the credit export scheme.


We had that debate before. It is true that EK benefits from those credit export schemes. You may want to call that "subsidy" if you like.

But by that standard the majority of airlines in the world benefit from subsidies, as they all can benefit from credit export schemes. The only ones not to are in the EU and US if I remember your post in the other thread correctly.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:45 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 25):
Airbus was probably optimistic about the number of destinations served.
Instead airlines seem:
- to concentrate their ops to a few hubs.
- send the whale to premium markets and not to leisure destinations.

They were also optimistic on number of airlines that took up the A388 and the production rate.

I still believe once A388 production is increased, sales will follow. But a few customers were missed, but there are opportunities (e.g., TK and GA).

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):
It looks like JFK, LAX, and NRT have a significant number of A380 movements yet no A380s call those airports home. Interesting.

   And as already noted HKG. IMHO GRU will be added to that list some day.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):
Well there was the original two aircraft and $10 Million in start-up capital back in 1985 that needs to be accounted for. No countries subsidize their airline fleet that much!

   EK wasn't 'babied' like QR and EY and IMHO they are stronger for it.

Quoting cmf (Reply 30):
I only went back to 2008 but all of them are according to IFRS.

Thank you. Very informative. Although IFRS has some more leeway than GAAP in certain areas... But is more definitive in others...

Quoting mozart (Reply 33):
Quoting Azure (Reply 29):
However, the rest of my post remains valid and I maintain my statement on the credit export scheme.


We had that debate before. It is true that EK benefits from those credit export schemes. You may want to call that "subsidy" if you lik

I too wonder how that is a subsidy. Europe and the USA offer good financing deals in trade for jobs. EK would be silly not to take advantage of those offers.

Lightsaber
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Aircellist
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:29 pm

At first glance, Arbus' map quoted by Lightsaber gives six destinations for LAX
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
Azure
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:23 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 32):
What other than using the EXIM bank remains? And why is EK using EXIM a big issue?

To my knowledge,EXIM is not involved in the A380 case, but similar European Institutions (such as COFACE). Why is it a big issue ? Please ask Air France, Lufthansa, British Airways, Easyjet, Air Berlin, Iberia, Virgin Atlantic, Air Europa and Monarch which have jointly complained about a distortion of competition.


Quoting mozart (Reply 33):
You may want to call that "subsidy" if you like.
But by that standard the majority of airlines in the world benefit from subsidies, as they all can benefit from credit export schemes. The only ones not to are in the EU and US if I remember your post in the other thread correctly.

Yes you do remember correctly  
"Subsidy" would not be the appropriate wording, the case here deals with competition.


Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
Europe and the USA offer good financing deals in trade for jobs. EK would be silly not to take advantage of those offers.

Agreed. The question is not about EK (and many others as Mozart noted) getting these financial deals but about airlines from OEM countries (mainly the US, France, Germany, Spain and UK) not allowed to get them, which in their views results in a competitive distortion.


Quoting Aircellist (Reply 35):
At first glance, Arbus' map quoted by Lightsaber gives six destinations for LAX

The discrepancy comes from MEL by QF as noted by Gemuser (reply #12 & #17).
 
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 36):
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 35):
At first glance, Arbus' map quoted by Lightsaber gives six destinations for LAX

The discrepancy comes from MEL by QF as noted by Gemuser (reply #12 & #17).

Sorry… Culpable of diagonal reading   
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
cmf
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:29 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 36):
To my knowledge,EXIM is not involved in the A380 case, but similar European Institutions (such as COFACE). Why is it a big issue ? Please ask Air France, Lufthansa, British Airways, Easyjet, Air Berlin, Iberia, Virgin Atlantic, Air Europa and Monarch which have jointly complained about a distortion of competition.

Don't think of EXIM as the US EXIM specifically but the function.

What those airlines think about EXIM used in selling airlines doesn't isn't relevant in the EK subsidy discussion.
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mozart
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:54 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 36):
Yes you do remember correctly  
"Subsidy" would not be the appropriate wording, the case here deals with competition.

Fine, then let me re-phrase it:

You can look at a doped Olympic athlet and a normal person and say "the doped athlet has an unfair competitive advantage (doping)". Or you can look at a normal person and someone in a wheelchair and say "the normal person has a competitive advantage (he can walk)".

The way you are turning this is that you paint EK as if they were a doped athlete, when in fact they are "normal" because they are in the same category as airlines from all but a handful countries in the world. Airlines from OEM countries are wheelchair-bound when it comes to aircraft financing, that is true. But that doesn't make normal walkers have a "unfair competitive disadvantage"
 
Azure
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 39):
The way you are turning this is that you paint EK as if they were a doped athlete, when in fact they are "normal" because they are in the same category as airlines from all but a handful countries in the world. Airlines from OEM countries are wheelchair-bound when it comes to aircraft financing, that is true. But that doesn't make normal walkers have a "unfair competitive disadvantage"

Ok. I am taking your analogy : airlines from the OEM countries are athletes in a wheelchair, and all the others are not physically-challenged athletes. Nobody in their right state of mind would consider organizing a serious contest including the two groups. As a matter of fact, there are the Olympics for the latter and the Paralympics for the former. The trouble is that in the real world of commercial aviation, there is just one market where the two groups have to compete.
What I am mean is that airlines CEOs from the OEM countries do have a point when they talk about competitive distortion as they cannot benefit from the same financial scheme as their non OEM countries ' peers when they purchase aircraft.
It does not matter whether these latter are responsible or not for this situation.
It does not matter whether these latter are more numerous than the former.
You can disagree with me but this is just the reality. Sorry to bring this up again but it is time for some posters to realize that European airlines CEOs (and their American peers as well - such as DL) have a reason to be displeased, to say the least.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:32 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 36):
Agreed. The question is not about EK (and many others as Mozart noted) getting these financial deals but about airlines from OEM countries (mainly the US, France, Germany, Spain and UK) not allowed to get them, which in their views results in a competitive distortion.

Ok. But the US and Europe excluded their own airlines from the deals. Its for the two to sit down and hash out rules... rules that would make life easier on Bombardier too!  
Quoting Azure (Reply 40):
Sorry to bring this up again but it is time for some posters to realize that European airlines CEOs (and their American peers as well - such as DL) have a reason to be displeased, to say the least.

I would be unhappy too. But Europe and US have done this to themselves. They could solve the problem... But create new ones. Are they willing to do so?

Lightsaber
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glbltrvlr
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:41 pm

I was surprised at the number of LHR A380s taxiing or at a gate that showed up in various wide shots during the recent Airport Live on BBC2. Mostly QANTAS and Singapore as I recall, but there were a few others.
 
Fastphilly
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:59 pm

LAX has quite a selection of Super Jumbos. I noticed LH isn't flying their big bird to LAX. I would imagine LAX could fill more passengers to FRA than SFO. Any reason why?

I've heard when EK gets more A380's in the fleet SFO could be a candidate for one.
 
thegeek
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:03 pm

Can anyone tell me the numbers of A380 daily/weekly flights at each airport?
 
Fastphilly
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:07 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
A very strange yardstick. In my book it is measured on the number of passengers. Don't care if the airline is domestic or foreign and don't care what equipment they use.

Wrong. A market is indeed measured by the amount of Foreign carriers/equipment. Passenger counts isn't accurate to how strong a market is in an era of regional hubs. Just look at ATL, DEN, DFW and CLT as an example. Anywhere from 18 to 30% of those airports are O&D while the rest are connections.
 
jumpjets
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 42):
I was surprised at the number of LHR A380s taxiing or at a gate that showed up in various wide shots during the recent Airport Live on BBC2

A high proportion of the 388 flights out of Heathrow leave between 8pm and 10pm - Both QFs daily 388 flights leave as do two of the SQs flights, 2 EKs and one MS - so the timing of the programme inadvertently gave a skewed picture of how much airport traffic is 388s.
 
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:25 pm

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 45):
A market is indeed measured by the amount of Foreign carriers/equipment.

Then I'm sure you can provide published examples to support your claim. Because In my book a passenger is a passenger if they fly on a strong local carrier, a different domestic or a foreign carrier.
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G500
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 43):

LH flies the A380 to SFO and not LAX because SFO is United's major West coast hub
 
Fastphilly
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RE: A380 Markets, So Far As Predicted

Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:52 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 47):
Then I'm sure you can provide published examples to support your claim. Because In my book a passenger is a passenger if they fly on a strong local carrier, a different domestic or a foreign carrier.

You will not find an airport/region with weak international service out perform an airport with both domestic and a strong international network. Perhaps you can give me an example?

[Edited 2013-06-24 18:53:07]

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