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Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:07 am

As announced at Le Bourget.

Boeing today announced they have officially launched the 787-10 Dreamliner, the third variant of the 787 after the -8 and -9.

They have received a total of 102 commitments from five customers as follows;

30 from Air Lease Corporation
10 from GECAS
12 from IAG / BA subject to shareholder approval
30 from Singapore Airlines
20 from United

Final assembly and flight testing are set to begin in 2017 with the first delivery targeted for 2018.

Be interesting to see which other carriers order it and whether we will see any conversions from existing models.

Source, The Boeing Company

As the model has officially been launched this thread is for the discussion of the launch without the speculation of the pre launch thread which can be found here Boeing 787-10 Launch Imminent (by KarelXWB Jun 13 2013 in Civil Aviation)
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:10 am

And there is the slide again:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BNBsIpZCEAA3eSG.jpg:large
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
Aviaponcho
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:10 am

So no surprise really here ....
6700-7000 Nm depending on the PAX Load

Good to see the good old 3 classes layout (61 in for first, 39 in for biz, 31-32 in for econ)
Is the IFE included as standard (it is worth 1-3 t extra weight...)

Semi-levered gear needed if i recall yesterday twitt
 
ferpe
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:12 am

The spec sheet given by Karel (pls repost) is strange,, I think someone at the B marketing department is in trouble (210 to 250 pax????, 57m, 228t and so on, this is the 788 spec !!!!!)

[Edited 2013-06-18 02:15:04]
Non French in France
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:14 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
The spec sheet given by Karel (pls repost) is strange

Seems like their developers were in a hurry to launch the website. Let's wait a bit longer until they have fixed the spec sheet.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
tortugamon
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:19 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
The spec sheet given by Karel (pls repost) is strange,, I think someone at the B marketing department is in trouble (210 to 250 pax????)

Yes, and that is not all. Words are cut off. And two of the sample city pairs is NYC-HKG at 7,014nm (range is 7k?) and 'Tokya'-Casablanca. I am willing to wager it will not be used on either route. Someone really should get fired for this junk.

I like the following characterization:
787-8 for new routes
787-9 for long routes
787-10 for high density routes.

tortugamon

[Edited 2013-06-18 02:21:54]
 
sweair
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:20 am

Any hope for an LH order later on? This aircraft has what they wanted, capacity over range. I wonder if SK is looking at it as well.
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:22 am

Quoting moderators (Thread starter):
30 from Air Lease Corporation
10 from GECAS

Any ideas where those birds might end up?
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:26 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 7):
Quoting moderators (Thread starter):
10 from GECAS

Any ideas where those birds might end up?

BR anyone?
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:27 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
pls repost

Some of the pictures on the new site are good and I like the ad campaign 'perfect 10'. Too bad they tripped a little. For those that haven't found it its all here: Lets hope they fix it quickly.

http://www.newairplane.com/787/787-10_announcement/

tortugamon
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:28 am

Well, some were thinking British Airways would order 18, versus the 12 that they actually ordered. Perhaps 6 for British then?
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:33 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 10):
Well, some were thinking British Airways would order 18, versus the 12 that they actually ordered. Perhaps 6 for British then?

The thing is, those 18 units are intended as 744 replacements. I would be surprised if they order 12 787-10 + 6 787-9 aircraft for this purpose, maybe the remaining 6 will be 787-10 options.

[Edited 2013-06-18 02:35:09]
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milestones787
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:38 am

Wow, what % more efficient is the 787-10 going to be than the 744? That is a huge leap!
 
Prost
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:40 am

Sorry, I meant to say that perhaps 6 of the 787-10 that leasing companies ordered are destined for British Airways, thus bringing their fleet total to 18.
 
sweair
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:43 am

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 12):

35% was posted somewhere, quite a bit, don't know if you can compare a 744 to a 787-10 though, maybe at 320 seats?
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:44 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 14):
don't know if you can compare a 744 to a 787-10 though

Some BA 744 aircraft only have about 290 seats.
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:46 am

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 12):
Wow, what % more efficient is the 787-10 going to be than the 744?

35% has been speculated. BA has a bunch of 299 seat 744s.

tortugamon
 
ferpe
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:49 am

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 12):
Wow, what % more efficient is the 787-10 going to be than the 744? That is a huge leap!

The will consume 40 kg/knm/m2 vs. 64 for the 744, I get this to be 37% more fuel efficient, I would say it is as close to a no brainer as you get   .

[Edited 2013-06-18 02:50:44]
Non French in France
 
sweair
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:59 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):

I guess the 787-10 will be a very popular TATL shuttle aircraft, it´s really perfect for this role.
 
tortugamon
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:09 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 18):
I guess the 787-10 will be a very popular TATL shuttle aircraft, it´s really perfect for this role.

I am surprised to only see 12 orders.

UA's purchase of 20 is a reasonable size order but I am surprised they decided to convert 10 of their other 787 orders. IMO they need more aircraft in this 300 seat area than the 60 they have to replace the 150 frames that they have on hand.

tortugamon
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:14 am

A couple heavy quotes:

“The 787-10 will be the most efficient jetliner in history,” Boeing Commercial Airplanes President and CEO Ray Conner said at the launch event in Paris. “The 787-10 is 25% more efficient than airplanes of its size today and more than 10% better than anything being offered by the competition for the future.”
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/awx_06_18_2013_p0-589320.xml&p=1

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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:15 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 20):
A couple heavy quotes:

The usual marketing talk  
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:25 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 21):

I hear you. Doesn't his quote imply that the A359 would only be 15% more efficient than the A330. That does not sound right.

Once BA's additional six 787s are added to SuH's three -9s doesn't that take orders to 991. Just nine more to go! Lock up the 787-9 order for QR!

tortugamon
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:34 am

About the landing gear:

Quote:
In contrast with the internal design changes and wing clean-up required for the 787-9, the latest variant demands minor only tweaks involving two fuselage plugs and a 777-300ER-style, semi-levered landing gear to avoid tailstrikes on rotation.


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...787-10-with-five-customers-387321/
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LY777
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:36 am

Finally, the range is quite important, so Boeing will not have the same problem as the 764.
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:56 am

Engines?

We know that the SQ (30) and BA (12) planes will have RR Trent 1000s.

We know that the GECAS planes (10) will have GEnxs.

The (30) for ALC will almost certainly be a mix of both engines.

That leaves the (20) for UA. CO ordered their 787s with GE. UA hadn't / haven't made an engine choice for the order they placed. Had their fleet stayed all -8s and -9s, I'd have said it was a dead cert that they'd all have GE but something tells me that RR might have the edge on the -10. Fingers crossed.
 
Someone83
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:59 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 15):
Some BA 744 aircraft only have about 290 seats.

Yes, but a 787-10 in a typical BA config wouldn't have 290 seats despite Boeing market it as a >300 seat aircraft
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:30 am

I think that Qantas given their previous comments (Alan Joyce) about wanting the B787-10 will definitely be a customer for this variant. It will be perfectly timed in terms of delivery for them to replace the A330-300's and fill the gap between the A380 and the B787-9's.

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sweair
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:33 am

Does it have the range for Qantas?
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:44 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 19):
I am surprised to only see 12 orders.

UA's purchase of 20 is a reasonable size order but I am surprised they decided to convert 10 of their other 787 orders. IMO they need more aircraft in this 300 seat area than the 60 they have to replace the 150 frames that they have on hand.

It's very early days yet; I don't know when exactly the 7810 is due to enter service (say 2018?), which is a good long way down the road and we will probably see more acquisitions of 787s between now and then; who knows, perhaps some of the 787s order by the lessors will also end up with BA?

Don't forget that the 777X launch is still to come and what BA has ordered already, between A350s and 787s, still won't even replace the 744s one for one, so there is still scope for additional developments and - if this happens - it will leave BA with a complicated balancing act between the three major types (and several sub-types), so we may yet see further adjustments as data - from in-service information - becomes clearer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Incidentally, now that the 787-10 has been launched and we're pretty clear on the dimensions of the 777X sub-types, is there anywhere one can get a representation of all of the next generation widebody twins, from the 788 up to the 777-9? I saw something on a post a while back, with several different types in BA colours, but can't recall if this included everything.
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:44 am

Quoting PM (Reply 25):
UA hadn't / haven't made an engine choice for the order they placed. Had their fleet stayed all -8s and -9s, I'd have said it was a dead cert that they'd all have GE but something tells me that RR might have the edge on the -10. Fingers crossed.

Unfortunately not...

"With this order and the six Dreamliners currently operated by the airline, United has ordered 65 GEnx-1B-powered 787s, making United the largest GEnx-1B operator."
http://www.geaviation.com/press/genx/genx_20130618.html
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:51 am

Would anyone point me in a direction where I could download one of those amazing 787-10 images from newairplane.com site in high resolution, please? I would love to have one of those grace my desktop...

Thanks a million in advance!
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:54 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 9):
http://www.newairplane.com/787/787-10_announcement/

If the market is routes like "tokya to Casablanca" I think Airbus should not be worried  
SIN-LHR ? HKG-JFK ? this is not serious
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:59 am

The quote from Hazy on MTOW is dubious. The value ascribed to him is that of the 789. PIANO-X suggests to me that it will need close to 254t to make the ~7100nm range at max passenger load. I have to believe there is more to come on this number.
 
sweair
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:13 pm

It can do LHR-LAX at MTOW easy, how long routes does BA have? As I understand TALT is still their bread and butter?
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:19 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 28):
Does it have the range for Qantas?

Yes. All of Asia, (at least as far west as Pakistan) is within range, all the Pacific Islands, even South Africa & Chile & Argentina (ignoring ETOPS rules) are within 7000nm. West Coast North America is marginal, but that's what B788 & B789s are for. I suppect it will become the airframe of choice for Australia to Asia Pacific.

See:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=7000nm%40syd&MS=wls&DU=nm

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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:23 pm

Re Reply 33.
Yup thats' the million dollar question "about" 7,000 Nm is too vague (although I appreciate that perhaps they have to be). A new semi-levered landing gear . Most people have said that considering the weight it will also have to be beefed up at the same time (no surprise there). Range is such a hard thing to pin down as configs vary so much as do T/O and flying conditions (hot/high/wind with/against etc).

What will the drop off of the curve look like depending on load. Steep? All depends on total weight of course. But there might be some severe trade offs I feel.

Having said that.... For those who will/do not need absolute range - people have correctly identified TATL. WOW!! replacing an old 744 with this and getting a 35% plus drop in fuel burn. Now for once that really is a "game changer"!

It completely removes the 333 (and various others) from any equasion going forward.There is nearly a thousand plane market right there! But it will all depend on the range / payload curve IMHO....Will be interesting to watch.
 
sweair
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:28 pm

Seeing how the A333 kept growing the MTOW maybe the 787-10 will too with time, ending its life above 7500nm?
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:48 pm

My guess is that the 787-10 is aimed for one market: replacing the A330-300 on most transatlantic and transpacific routes, but with way lower CASM. This could be the plane multiple European charter airlines are looking for--and Delta may use it to expand transatlantic and flights to South America from JFK and ATL. In short, by 2020 airlines of the TUI group may be using it to fly from Europe to east coast USA and Caribbean resort destinations.
 
lutfi
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:08 pm

Perfect for CX to replace A330 regionally in 10 years time
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:24 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 37):
Seeing how the A333 kept growing the MTOW maybe the 787-10 will too with time, ending its life above 7500nm?

I'm not too sure

The difference is when launched the A330 was intended to be a high density regional airliner primarily aimed at Asian carriers while the A340 was supposed to be the longhaul airliner. In that role the A330 didn't need a large MTOW. I'm not familiar with the structural improvements needed to subsequently raise the A330's MTOW to allow more fuel to be carried to the point where the current A330-300 basically has the same capabilities as the original A340-300 but the design was always based on the A330/A340 platform.

The 787-10X on the other hand is a further stretch of the 787 platform. While it probably will see MTOW rises I'm not sure they'll be as drastic as the A330. Even if it was possible it could impact of the sales of the 777-8X.



Quoting VH-BZF (Reply 27):

I think that Qantas given their previous comments (Alan Joyce) about wanting the B787-10 will definitely be a customer for this variant. It will be perfectly timed in terms of delivery for them to replace the A330-300's and fill the gap between the A380 and the B787-9's.

I can definitely see the 787-10X in QF's fleet as an eventual A330-300 replacement. If there's any aircraft in development that was made for their operations to SIN, HKG, TYO it's the 787-10X. But I think the order will be a couple of years away with EIS Early-Mid 2020's



Vhq.
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:31 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 18):
I guess the 787-10 will be a very popular TATL shuttle aircraft, it´s really perfect for this role.

Among other things. This will be a very versatile aircraft. And she looks good in the process too.  .

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 20):
“The 787-10 will be the most efficient jetliner in history,” Boeing Commercial Airplanes President and CEO Ray Conner said at the launch event in Paris. “The 787-10 is 25% more efficient than airplanes of its size today and more than 10% better than anything being offered by the competition for the future.”
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l&p=1

Just marketing talk of course. She will lose big against the A359 on payload. Nothing new here.  
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 21):
The usual marketing talk  

  .

Quoting PM (Reply 25):
Engines?

We know that the SQ (30) and BA (12) planes will have RR Trent 1000s.

We know that the GECAS planes (10) will have GEnxs.

The (30) for ALC will almost certainly be a mix of both engines.

Probably close to an even split sofar?

Quoting PM (Reply 25):
That leaves the (20) for UA. CO ordered their 787s with GE. UA hadn't / haven't made an engine choice for the order they placed. Had their fleet stayed all -8s and -9s, I'd have said it was a dead cert that they'd all have GE but something tells me that RR might have the edge on the -10. Fingers crossed.

Indeed, fingers crossed. But also GE will have an excellent engine offering, no doubt about that.  
 
Flighty
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:39 pm

Seems like more of an A330 competitor, or even -- the second coming of the 787-3. It has a good range, but like 767, it may be used for short-range a lot.
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:45 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
the second coming of the 787-3

Sure. Other than 30% more cabin area and twice the range.
Anon
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:54 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 41):
Just marketing talk of course. She will lose big against the A359 on payload. Nothing new here

I can't agree with that . MZFW for both are within a tonne or two of each other; M^2 in floor area and M^3 in cargo space are pretty similar. It will be the payload ( and fuel) that the A359's higher MTOW will allow it to lift that will give it an edge and that will be well out on the load/range curve.
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:57 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 43):
Sure. Other than 30% more cabin area and twice the range.

Indeed. The 787-3 failed to get orders for its mission. It needed big changes. The range is impressive - but well below the 772. IMO we are looking at a new mid-hauler. Nothing wrong with that.
 
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:07 pm

I could see DL with a mix of -9's and -10X's. The 9 has awesome range and a good passenger load. Let's see if DL takes the bait and jumps. Richard Anderson, in a recent CNBC interview said he would buy the 10 version today if it were available. Move now to get some good delivery slots.

If it turns out to be that popular I wonder if they will build at both Everett and South Carolina.
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:33 pm

I wonder if EK will purchase the 787-10x, now knowing it can carry 300-330 pax.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:34 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 47):
I wonder if EK will purchase the 787-10x, now knowing it can carry 300-330 pax.

Here you go:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...iner-stretch-may-be-too-small.html
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
jayunited
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RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:39 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 19):
UA's purchase of 20 is a reasonable size order but I am surprised they decided to convert 10 of their other 787 orders. IMO they need more aircraft in this 300 seat area than the 60 they have to replace the 150 frames that they have on hand.

What the big rush United still has time and according to some articles UA is looking at the A351 and may people on A.netters including myself would like to see UA order a few 779X's.

So although this is a respectable order something tells me more widebody order will follow, maybe not at the Paris air show but UA will order or convert existing orders to larger variants. UA will need to replace a lot of aircraft; the 3 class 767 are already covered by an existing sUA order for 25 B788, the 744 fleet has an existing order for A359 but most people expect UA to convert that order to A351, and lastly sUA non-er 772 will need replacing by the end of this decade as well. I believe that most of sUA 772ER will probably be in the fleet till probably 2024-25 and then UA will start to retire the sUA 772ER and sCO 772ER and 764 are the youngest widebodies in the combined UA fleet so those planes will probably be in the fleet till at least 2027-28 before they start the retirement of the sCO fleet. (theses are just my estimates and I could be wrong). So as you can see with the current orders United has time, the only fleet that now needs an appropriate replacement order is the 744 fleet hopefully we will see an order during Paris and if not I'm hopeful that some type of order will be placed before years end.

However I think the 20 B787-10's are probably slated as replacements for UA non-er 772 which will be anywhere between 23-25 years old if I'm not mistaken by the time UA starts to take delivery of the 787-10.

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