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KarelXWB
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Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:15 pm

Garuda Indonesia is considering the purchase of the A380 or 747-8i in partnership with its government to help ferry religious pilgrims to Saudi Arabia.

> Garuda want three to five VLA's for the Hajj Trips
> Garuda is evaluating both A380 and 747-8i
> A purchase may come "very soon"
> First delivery in 2015

Story here:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...8-against-a380-for-hajj-trips.html
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EPA001
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:19 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):

Garuda Indonesia is considering the purchase of the A380 or 747-8i in partnership with its government to help ferry religious pilgrims to Saudi Arabia.

There has been rumours of this before. So now it seems to be getting more and more serious that Garuda will purchase up to 5 VLA's. Hope they will go for the A380 of course.  
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:24 pm

Well, it's know that Airbus has a couple of slots in 2015. Maybe that's why the LH deal for two more hasn't been signed yet?   

Could Boeing deliver 748is to a new customer in 2015?
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:28 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
Could Boeing deliver 748is to a new customer in 2015?

Yes, they can. There are many open delivery slots for the 747 in 2015.
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A388
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:48 pm

Besides these Hajj flights, on which other routes does GA intend to use those A380's/748's? I assume those Hajj flights aren't yearround(?)

A388
 
na
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:58 pm

They surely wont fly from Denpasar 
Quoting A388 (Reply 4):

Besides these Hajj flights, on which other routes does GA intend to use those A380's/748's? I assume those Hajj flights aren't yearround(?)

A388

Not just Hadj, there are pilgrims flying to Mekka etc all year round, Lionair is flying some with their two 744s. Remember that Indonesia is the most populous islamic country.
But I am surprised this traffic justifies about 5 VLAs year round.
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:07 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
Hope they will go for the A380 of course.    

And I hope they will go for the 748i of course. 
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behramjee
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:26 pm

Hajj period is 2 months of each year i.e. 1 month to JED and 1 month for pilgrims to return

Umrah period is for 8 months of the year

To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish and instead GA would be better off purchasing 5 additional B77Ws and configuring them into an all Y class layout with 520 seats similar to what ANA and JAL do domestically in Japan. For the future, order the larger B779 which will give GA 18% more capacity i.e. 90 more seats which is quite enough.

For year round services, the only destination in GA's network warranting such an aircraft to be deployed is indeed JED and no where else. CGK-JED is a 9 hour 45 minute long flight so for a double daily service, GA would need a maximum of 3 aircraft and not 5.
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:38 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish and instead GA would be better off purchasing 5 additional B77Ws and configuring them into an all Y class layout with 520 seats similar to what ANA and JAL do domestically in Japan.

So to order the more comfortable plane and seat more at lower seat travel cost is foolish? They could also convert some of the 77W orders, an soon aging plane type in the eye of the imminent launch of a successor, to 748Is. I am sure Boeing would give them a good deal!
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:43 pm

what is the range of a high density 520 seat 77W. I would hate to be flight attendant on that route vs config!
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:49 pm

I would have thought the infrastructure of airports like JKT would be better suited to B748i operations than A380, also GA could trade in their remaining 744's to Boeing as part of the deal.
And possibly use the leaverage of a 748i purchase to reopen the SFO & LAX services again.
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 9):
(W)hat is the range of a high density 520 seat 77W.

At MZFW the 777-300ER can fly around 5750nm, so more than that.  
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:57 pm

Well, if considered in high-density config, the A380 would be the choice:

605 pax in the B747-8i vs. 853 in the A380

A clear advantage, which should also be on the financial side...

The A380 is an ideal aircraft for hajj and umrah travel.
Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
 
afterburner
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:11 pm

I don't think it's Garuda's own need to purchase the VLAs. It's the government's. The minister of religious affairs once said that Indonesia needs to have large aircraft of its own to carry the Hajj pilgrims instead of chartering from foreign airlines.
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:18 pm

Garuda is on my short 'hit list' of new VLA operators. This should be a hard fought competition.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
There has been rumours of this before.

   But with the new runway at CDK cancelled... Garuda will have to expand with gauge where they can. Which won't be to many cities, but enough to justify a subfleet.

I'm not expecting either aircraft to be configured for
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:34 pm

Quoting chieft (Reply 12):
The A380 is an ideal aircraft for hajj and umrah travel.

With regards to Umrah using a B744, GA dont even average 90% S/F currently on their JED route so how do you expect them to fill up an airplane with almost double the capacity?

In peak Umrah season which is 4 weeks of the year, yes they could fill a 853 seater but then again thats only 4 weeks out of 52.

Quoting na (Reply 8):
So to order the more comfortable plane and seat more at lower seat travel cost is foolish? They could also convert some of the 77W orders, an soon aging plane type in the eye of the imminent launch of a successor, to 748Is. I am sure Boeing would give them a good deal!

Yes it is foolish because it incurs un warranted additional costs introducing and maintaining a new fleet type just for 5 planes and that too 5 are not required as currently GA operate double daily JED-CGK flights using a dedicated B744 and B77W. I work in Network Planning and have managed Hajj operations for the past 2 years for a GCC carrier which uplifted Hajj and Umrah pax from CGK hence I know very well this market segment.

Remember one very important aspect...Hajj traffic is very directional i.e. going out full in one direction and flying in one direction with less than 35% S/F if not less hence it is better for GA to use a fuel efficient less denser aircraft like an all Y class B77W versus experimenting with a larger and more expensive B748 / A380 !

[Edited 2013-06-18 08:46:52]
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish

It may be foolish but the government is involved so who cares?  
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 4):
Besides these Hajj flights, on which other routes does GA intend to use those A380's/748's? I assume those Hajj flights aren't yearround(?)

My question as well. There are pilgrims year round but the really busy period is the few weeks around Hajj. And these flights require high density aircrafts, which are of little use in other markets.

The idea of buying brand new and expensive aircrafts for that purpose only seems incredibly wasteful. Unless of course they have an operational plan for them for the rest of the year.

A fleet of good condition used 744s would suit the need at a much lesser cost. I heard on another thread that there are quite a lot of fairly new A346s in good nick that are to be quickly available, for peanuts... That would fit the bill too.
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A388
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:55 pm

Quoting na (Reply 5):
They surely wont fly from Denpasar Quoting A388 (Reply 4):

Besides these Hajj flights, on which other routes does GA intend to use those A380's/748's? I assume those Hajj flights aren't yearround(?)

A388

Not just Hadj, there are pilgrims flying to Mekka etc all year round, Lionair is flying some with their two 744s. Remember that Indonesia is the most populous islamic country.

I know this too, but...

Quoting na (Reply 5):
But I am surprised this traffic justifies about 5 VLAs year round.

... this is what I mean  

A388
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:36 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 15):
Yes it is foolish because it incurs un warranted additional costs introducing and maintaining a new fleet type just for 5 planes and that too 5 are not required as currently GA operate double daily JED-CGK flights using a dedicated B744 and B77W. I work in Network Planning and have managed Hajj operations for the past 2 years for a GCC carrier which uplifted Hajj and Umrah pax from CGK hence I know very well this market segment.

Remember one very important aspect...Hajj traffic is very directional i.e. going out full in one direction and flying in one direction with less than 35% S/F if not less hence it is better for GA to use a fuel efficient less denser aircraft like an all Y class B77W versus experimenting with a larger and more expensive B748 / A380 !

Then the 787 should be even better, dont you think, and the 777-9X you projected would also be too large.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 16):
It may be foolish but the government is involved so who cares?  

Maybe its the intention of the government to shovel far more pilgrims at far lower cost. Under that circumstance no one beats the A380.
 
Aither
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:52 pm

Pilgrims from Indonesia have the right not to be treated like cattle. Yields are low but the ministry of religion may be looking at the right balance between profitability and comfort, and not just to maximize the profitability at all costs.
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:11 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 20):

Pilgrims from Indonesia have the right not to be treated like cattle. Yields are low but the ministry of religion may be looking at the right balance between profitability and comfort, and not just to maximize the profitability at all costs.

  
Indeed. If one looks at it as a subsidized service provided by the government of the most populous Islamic nation in the world to its citizens, as opposed to looking at it as an airline route that needs to generate profit, it might make a lot more sense.
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:37 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 20):
Pilgrims from Indonesia have the right not to be treated like cattle.

No, they really don't...everyone has the opportunity for more space, if they choose to pay for it. As far as I know...no country on earth provides a constitutional right to seat width or pitch.
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:49 pm

Quoting sturmovik (Reply 21):
If one looks at it as a subsidized service provided by the government of the most populous Islamic nation in the world to its citizens, as opposed to looking at it as an airline route that needs to generate profit, it might make a lot more sense.

But might that investment (whether it be a comfy 747-8 or a comfy A380-800) be better spent on a service that the government could provide to it's citizens 12 months a year instead of just 2?

If they have the traffic to support VLA operations year-round profitably, bully for them. But if they do not, then this sounds more like a "prestige" purchase that will lose money, but gain public relations points.
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
To purchase VLAs just to handle Hajj is foolish

  

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
For year round services, the only destination in GA's network warranting such an aircraft to be deployed is indeed JED

Indeed. Look at GA's current 744 utilization. In the recent past model has been used on short hops to places like SIN, while a bit further back to HKG. Neither are markets that truly need a 747. Essentially GA does not have much use for its current 744 fleet as is.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
nstead GA would be better off purchasing 5 additional B77Ws and configuring them into an all Y class layout

Yes more 77W would seem more practical. Depending on needs they can even reconfigure the subfleet depending on seasonal demand.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 10):
reopen the SFO & LAX services again.

Oh please no. Let GA stick to Skyteam codeshares.

Also I dont believe GA ever served SFO. It was LAX and HNL.
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asetiadi
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:12 pm

if they have to really purchase a new plane, it would be better to have 747-800i since this plane can use every major airports in Indonesia. Airbus 380 will not work in Indonesia unless they do some major upgrade on runway length, airport terminals, etc...
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:13 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
But might that investment (whether it be a comfy 747-8 or a comfy A380-800) be better spent on a service that the government could provide to it's citizens 12 months a year instead of just 2?

Hey I'm not saying it's a rational thing to do, I was just trying to look at this from a different perspective. I wouldn't put it past my country's government to do something like this, and since Indonesia is more or less in the same neck of the woods, I assumed there's a possibility that it might not be too different over there either.
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:50 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 10):
And possibly use the leaverage of a 748i purchase to reopen the SFO & LAX services again.

GARUDA never served SFO as a scheduled point. There may have been a few VIP charters, but not scheduled
service.
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Azure
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:38 pm

Indonesia is growing at a very fast pace, and air transport is growing even faster :
- pax growth : 12/15% a year
- 24 new airports will be built by 2015 !
- Even Medan is now A380 ready.
I would not be surprised either if the country flag carrier, ie. GA, orders a couple of VLAs, for the Hajj first but also for some regional ops... When it is a question of pride, prestige, and overall international recognition, money or financial rationals are no major issues in this part of the world (and this is no offense to this country).

Quoting na (Reply 19):
Maybe its the intention of the government to shovel far more pilgrims at far lower cost. Under that circumstance no one beats the A380.

  

Quoting Aither (Reply 20):
Yields are low but the ministry of religion may be looking at the right balance between profitability and comfort, and not just to maximize the profitability at all costs.

  

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
If they have the traffic to support VLA operations year-round profitably, bully for them. But if they do not, then this sounds more like a "prestige" purchase that will lose money, but gain public relations points.

  

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 25):
Airbus 380 will not work in Indonesia unless they do some major upgrade on runway length, airport terminals

Exactly what they have been doing in DPS, Medan, etc...
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:11 pm

Quoting na (Reply 19):
Maybe its the intention of the government to shovel far more pilgrims at far lower cost. Under that circumstance no one beats the A380.

And they could go 11-abreast in Y on the main deck   
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Motorhussy
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:47 pm

I don't know much about Hadj pilgrims from Indonesia other than that, by all accounts, there are a significant number of them.

What I do know is that the Indonesian economy is booming against the global trend (I'll not get into environmental and humanitarian cost here), and the country's affluent middle-class is growing significantly.

Now presumably Hadj pilgrims come from all social and financial classes and not all are intent on travelling the traditional pilgrim class, camel through the eye of a needle etc.

My question is, does GA have the ability to offer a Haj configured craft with Y+ or even J, and if so, is it not possible to use on other routes at less intense pilgrimage periods of the year? And would this make a VLA more viable?
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mandala499
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:53 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 28):
- Even Medan is now A380 ready.

Current Medan Polonia Airport? A380 ready? I'd like to see that as long as I don't have to deal with the mess! Polonia is cramped as hell with only 2 of its stands barely capable of taking 747s and the rest are for narrobodies.

If you mean the new Kualanamu Airport that's about to open, I wouldn't count on it being A380 ready just yet. The highway going to and from that airport hasn't been built, the train can only take 20% of the projected traffic between the airport and the city, and the only access is err... a road that is not suitable as an airport access with "illegal towns" along the way.

Quoting Azure (Reply 28):
Exactly what they have been doing in DPS, Medan, etc...

DPS cannot get a runway length extension for environmental reasons, its revamp will struggle to meet the traffic by the time it's completed.

Quoting Azure (Reply 28):
money or financial rationals are no major issues in this part of the world (and this is no offense to this country).

Bad news for you sir... Garuda is a publicly listed company and its shares aren't doing very well either. The financial community isn't convinced of the VLA case at the moment and the aviation community has an endless list of complaints on infrastructure, even the recently built / revamped airports. Even our DGCA aren't keen on the Ministry of Religions Affairs getting A380s for Hajj (and this is a government ministry rumored to be the most corrupt in the government... heck, even government issued Qur'an contracts is now under scrutiny by the Anti Corruption Commission and one case is already in the corruption court).

Garuda is looking for VLAs, but again, the CEO also complains about infrastructure.

Quoting na (Reply 5):
Lionair is flying some with their two 744s.

Lionair's 744s are usually found sitting at the airport. The 744 fleet is the lowest utility in Lion Air, so low that they no longer have pilots who are currently only flying the 744 (ie: they spend most if not all of their time on the NGs). The 744s have ended up flying charters to anywhere but JED.

Bear in mind also that Batavia took the 330s for JED... They flew Umrah charters to JED more often than Lion Air's 744s, and even that, lost money. In fact, it's one of the major factors that killed Batavia.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 15):
Remember one very important aspect...Hajj traffic is very directional i.e. going out full in one direction and flying in one direction with less than 35% S/F if not less hence it is better for GA to use a fuel efficient less denser aircraft like an all Y class B77W versus experimenting with a larger and more expensive B748 / A380 !

This is what makes Hajj flights expensive. 100% + 35% S/F for a return trip is valid only for regular flights. For the Hajj charters is 100% + 0% SF for a return trip. This makes the Hajj fares very high, well, you are effectively paying for 2x return trips. The folly for this whole Hajj VLA issue is the argument that "Garuda is making heaps of money out of Hajj by charging 2x the normal fares"... without looking at the fact that the plane has to make 2 return trips for 1 plane load.

Garuda is playing along solely because Hajj period will soon move to northern summer holiday season, so those hajj leases will become expensive over the next years, so if the government wants to give them VLAs for that, "and use it for Garuda's needs at other times" it'll play along.

But if the VLA from the Ministry of Religious Affairs is going to have a crappy contract, well... let's put it this way... Merpati isn't happy with the MA-60s the government dumped on them.   
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:59 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 16):
It may be foolish but the government is involved so who cares?  

DING DING DING...we have a winner here..... Who cares what is better or if it makes sense if Gov. is involved, strange things happen .

TRB
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Azure
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:10 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 31):

Thanks for your interesting information.
I was referring indeed to the new Kualanamu Airport in Medan which has been described as A380 ready by some media here, with no reference to the infrastructure troubles you are mentioning. But I believe these troubles can be solved, isn't it a question of time ?
As for DPS, I am aware the runway is too short for a 744 MTOW (and therefore an A380 MTOW) but would a VLA need to have its tanks full of fuel for the regional ops I was mentioning ? I do not believe so.
Garuda now... I am a bit confused here. The Financial Times, which I consider to be a reliable source, mentions it is still state-owned ( http://markets.ft.com/research/Marke...sheets/Business-profile?s=GIAA:JKT ). It is publicly listed indeed but I believe the Indonesian State is still a shareholder, which would make my point valid. If not, it would not be bad news for me and you should not be sorry for that  
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 31):
Garuda is looking for VLAs, but again, the CEO also complains about infrastructure.

Again, the optimist would be inclined to believe that these infrastructure concerns might be partly solved by the time GA receives its VLAs if it was to order them.
 
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:39 am

Forget about either operating from DPS on Hajj charters, the vast majority of the population on Bali isn't Muslim.
 
mandala499
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:41 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 33):
I was referring indeed to the new Kualanamu Airport in Medan which has been described as A380 ready by some media here, with no reference to the infrastructure troubles you are mentioning. But I believe these troubles can be solved, isn't it a question of time ?

I guess this financial times article will be news for you:
Infrastructure failings clip the wings of Indonesian airport

Sorry, CEO Satar said it out loud in several conferences that infrastructure is the major growth cap. What he says in major airshows are, sorry, only for show. He has also said it that despite the growth, the VLAs are only being looked at with no decision soon as he is not convinced the infrastructure can catch up with the current fleet growth. Garuda's own need for VLA is more for the 2020-2025 period... It is separate from the Ministry of Religious Affairs proposal for Hajj VLAs. The "we may need it by 2015" is that one, not Garuda's own requirements.

Satar is playing along to not step on anyone in the government or the parties as he is set to step down in september and is now looking at taking on a ministerial post after the next election.

Quoting Azure (Reply 33):
As for DPS

For DPS, I was mentioning it to extend the infrastructure deficit the country has. It will be behind traffic by the time the current revamp is finished. Which is the same with SUB (Terminal 2, built out of the ashes of old terminal on the southern side). Kualanamu is already behind capacity demand. The list goes on and on and on and on.

And yeah, anyone with an idea of having Hajj flights out of DPS is... grossly misunderstanding the island's demographics.

Quoting Azure (Reply 33):
It is publicly listed indeed but I believe the Indonesian State is still a shareholder, which would make my point valid. If not, it would not be bad news for me and you should not be sorry for that

Yes, it is still just a bit over 69% government owned, with creditors, employees, and individuals making the rest. (the fund managers have largely sold their stakes off). With the shares overpriced at the IPO (which was in the eyes of many, really a fiasco... they were asking for IDR1000 but the fair value was IDR650 a share). The whole IPO thing was a money sucking debacle. And it's now at IDR500 a share (thanks to the VLA news).
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:10 am

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 25):
if they have to really purchase a new plane, it would be better to have 747-800i since this plane can use every major airports in Indonesia. Airbus 380 will not work in Indonesia unless they do some major upgrade on runway length,

What Indonesian airports, that CAN support the B744/B748i that CAN NOT support the A380 and why?

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behramjee
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:26 am

FYI, the top 10 medium to long haul international markets out of CGK in 2012 were as follows:

JED - 620,000
ICN - 270,000
NRT - 255,000
TPE - 220,000
RUH - 160,000
PVG - 150,000
DXB - 140,000
SYD - 130,000
PEK - 130,000
AMS - 110,000
 
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lollomz
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:57 pm

I hope to see a new B748i order one day......
[url="http://www.diecastmodelaircraft.com/collection/Lollomz"]Image[/url]
 
cheeken
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:16 pm

If Indonesia could purchase A380s and turn them into firefighting planes that'll be REALLY useful! :P
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:00 pm

Update: Garuda considering all economy-class Airbus 380, Boeing 747-8I.

Story here:
http://www.ausbt.com.au/garuda-consi...omy-class-airbus-380-boeing-747-8i
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
astuteman
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:35 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 15):
With regards to Umrah using a B744, GA dont even average 90% S/F currently on their JED route so how do you expect them to fill up an airplane with almost double the capacity?

In which case only 777's or the 3510 would be considered

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 29):
And they could go 11-abreast in Y on the main deck

They don't need to.... 30" pitch would get you 850 seats just the same.

Quoting Azure (Reply 33):
As for DPS, I am aware the runway is too short for a 744 MTOW (and therefore an A380 MTOW) but would a VLA need to have its tanks full of fuel for the regional ops I was mentioning ? I do not believe so.

A 570 tonne A380 needs 9 200 ft.
A 450 tonne 748i needs 10 200ft,
And a 400 tonne 744 needs 10 500ft.
All at sea level ISA conditions according to their respective current ACAPS

DPS runway may be too short for any of them. But a runway being too short for a 744 at MTOW doesn't necessarily mean its too short for an A380 at MTOW - the latter needs 1 300 ft less runway  

Rgds
 
Fastphilly
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 10):
748i purchase to reopen the SFO & LAX services again

Not to nitpick, but GA has never served SFO. If they ever did serve LAX, we must be going back to the 80's.
 
astuteman
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 41):
Quoting Azure (Reply 33):As for DPS, I am aware the runway is too short for a 744 MTOW (and therefore an A380 MTOW) but would a VLA need to have its tanks full of fuel for the regional ops I was mentioning ? I do not believe so.
A 570 tonne A380 needs 9 200 ft.

Late edit - Denpasar runway appears to be 9 842 ft long - i.e. adequate for an MTOW A380, but not any of the 747's at MTOW...

http://www.baliairport.com/bali-airport-quick-facts

Rgds
 
TC957
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:31 pm

I recall seeing GA at LAX with their MD-11ERs, so it must have been late 90's.
Sorry, didn't know they never served SFO.
 
jupiter2
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:56 pm

Again, forget about DPS in this discussion, Bali is dominated by Buddhist. Even so a single class 380 or 748i is hardly going to be at MTOW from any airport in Indonesia to Saudi Arabia, so runway length discussions are a mute point.

Having said that, surely the 748i would be the more logical choice, simply for the fact that for the other 8 months of the year it will be easier to fill. Even though both aircraft really are overkill, but then again with government subsidies, what will GA care !
 
na
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:50 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 43):
Late edit - Denpasar runway appears to be 9 842 ft long - i.e. adequate for an MTOW A380, but not any of the 747's at MTOW...
Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 45):
Again, forget about DPS in this discussion, Bali is dominated by Buddhist.

Buddhist? When I visited Bali it was clearly dominated by Hindu. According to wikipedia more than 90% are Hindu, less than 1% Buddhist!

Agreed though that Denpasar is totally unimportant when it comes to Hadj travel.
 
jupiter2
Posts: 949
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:59 am

Oops.......my bad !!

Wrong religion.

[Edited 2013-07-02 18:03:16]
 
GARUDAROD
Posts: 1136
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:15 am

Quoting Fastphilly (Reply 42):
Not to nitpick, but GA has never served SFO. If they ever did serve LAX, we must be going back to the 80's.

GARUDA served LAX from 1986 until May of 1998 with the DC-10, B747 Combi and MD-11

To Mandala,

I hear a lot of talk about GA returning to LAX, is there anything official going in this regards?
The B777W would seem to be the ideal aircraft for this route.
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Garuda Indonesia Looking At The A380 And 747

Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:17 am

Quoting behramjee (Reply 15):
Remember one very important aspect...Hajj traffic is very directional i.e. going out full in one direction and flying in one direction with less than 35% S/F if not less hence it is better for GA to use a fuel efficient less denser aircraft like an all Y class B77W versus experimenting with a larger and more expensive B748 / A380 !

The single class 77W would be more dense than an A380, but it would carry less people.

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