1400mph
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Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:40 am

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/b...ns-thomson-airways-may-fly-to.html

I knew it !

And so it begins.

I remember LAS being poo-poo'd by London based legacies for years and now look.

I wonder what's on the cards for the 787 and A350 legacy wise that will raise eyebrows.

At least a few surprises I hope.
 
flyingthe757
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:55 am

Non stop UK - Hawaii!!! That's one hell of a long flight!
 
QANTAS747-438
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:27 pm

No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
1400mph
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:33 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

They also said that American legacies would never consolidate and that EK would never co-operate.

Both eventualities foreseen by a few on here including I.

  
 
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scbriml
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:39 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 3):
They also said that American legacies would never consolidate and that EK would never co-operate.

Even more said AA would never buy Airbus again.   

I'd like to see what they're proposing before I cheer it, but it's a start!   
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TC957
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Thomson have often stated that routes as far as HNL and also DPS will be looked at once the 787's are in the fleet. So nothing really new here.
 
hotplane
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:40 pm

Funny, the pilot doing MAH-LGW 787 flt yesterday said it could do London-Hawaii nonstop if required.
?
 
APYu
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:50 pm

It won't happen. It's just a headline dropped into a conversation during a press day.

TUI will never get the cheap hotel rates they'd need in the islands to make it profitable. They'd be competing against the Japanese tourists who pay far more than Brian and Debbie from Essex.

[Edited 2013-06-22 08:52:52]
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777STL
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:56 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 3):
They also said that American legacies would never consolidate and that EK would never co-operate.

Both eventualities foreseen by a few on here including I.

You're so smart. No one can get anything past you!
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bluesky73
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:09 pm

There was recent talk on here regarding UK-HNL and I still definitely think there is a market for this. I reckon a couple of flights a week.

I got back from there not long ago and as much as enjoyed stopping off on west coast a direct flight is definitely something me and the wife would consider.
 
lax777lr
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:24 pm

Again, doubtful. Even with the 787's big improvement in efficiency and ultimately operating costs, this bird still needs to burn a lot of fuel to carry enough fuel for an ULH mission like this. Factor in the additional crew requirements then divide by Mr. and Mrs. Essex's holiday budget, and you probably have a nice money-losing operation.

Anyone care to crunch some speculative numbers?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:28 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

Its a charter, a few times a week in peak season. That can be done.

The one that would have a hell of a challenge would be a scheduled service flight if someone like HA wanted to try it.
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ukoverlander
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:35 pm

I haven't lived in the UK for some time but Thomson as I recall is a charter operator so if they can fill a plane load of package holiday makers for Hawaii then theoretically it is doable. The real question though is why British holiday makers would bother to fly all the way to Hawai'i when for a lot less flying hours, and a lot less transitted time zones they can get to Mauritius, the Seychelles, the Maldives, the Caribbean, Thailand?

The jet lag on that route would be brutal and although the Hawaiian Islands are nice, I'm sorry but they really don't offer anything that compelling that those other destinations don't already offer. Perhaps they are thinking about offering it as a stop over destination on charter flights that would continue on to Australia and New Zealand? In great circle terms Hawai'i probably makes pretty good sense for a charter airline wishing to sell budget trips down under with a novelty stop over destination. Otherwise I'd guess the market would be pretty thin.
 
AirbusGeek
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:45 pm

How can they?! It would be about a sixteen hour trip! The only aircraft which could possibly do it is the Boeing 747-400ER, right?
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ukoverlander
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:54 pm

Great Circle mapper suggests it's 6311 nautical miles from Gatwick to Honolulu. If I was to make a guess I'd say it's going to be about a 14.5 hour flight.
 
qf002
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:13 pm

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 9):
There was recent talk on here regarding UK-HNL and I still definitely think there is a market for this. I reckon a couple of flights a week.

That thread, for anybody who might be interested: UK To HNL, Is There A Market? (by readytotaxi Jan 12 2013 in Civil Aviation)

And I totally agree that there is a market there worth exploring. The 787 is exactly the sort of aircraft that makes these sorts of things a possibility (even with high fuel prices).

Quoting AirbusGeek (Reply 13):
How can they?! It would be about a sixteen hour trip! The only aircraft which could possibly do it is the Boeing 747-400ER, right?

It's not actually a particularly long route in the global scale of things, and well within reach of the 788, 77W/77L, A345 and A388 (all of which have more range than the 747-400ER).
 
by738
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:21 pm

Couldn't they do a double drop ie LAS or SAN and have crew swap
 
APYu
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:23 pm

Adding a stop would make that even less attractive to TUI travels core markets of families with kids and senior couples.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
airbazar
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting APYu (Reply 7):
They'd be competing against the Japanese tourists who pay far more than Brian and Debbie from Essex.

Those tourists don't usually go for the cheap lodging. Have you ever been to Hawaii? There is an abundance of inexpensive lodging outside of the fancy hotels. That is the least of their problems. Being from Portugal myself and having spent plenty of Summers in Algarve I'm very familiar with what Brian and Debbie from Essex are looking for and it's not the same type of accomodation that Japanese tourists go for   And by the way, the Chinese tourists spend even more than the Japanese tourists.

Quoting lax777lr (Reply 10):
Again, doubtful. Even with the 787's big improvement in efficiency and ultimately operating costs, this bird still needs to burn a lot of fuel to carry enough fuel for an ULH mission like this.

Who says it has to be non-stop? They are a tour operator, a refueling stop is not beyond them. It happens all the time on charter flights to the Caribbean already.
 
APYu
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:50 pm

Yes I've been to Hawaii thanks. TUI would be and do compete at hotels popular with japanese and other eastern tourists. They have just pulled MLE as a result of that competition sadly.

Most TUI long haul hotels are 4 star. The short and mid haul programmes cater for a wider taste and have more of the cheaper lodging to which you refer.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
anrec80
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 16):
Couldn't they do a double drop ie LAS or SAN and have crew swap

In order for that to be a $$-making operation, in addition to selling to Brian and Debbie from Essex, they will need to be able to sell tickets to Joe and Mary from rural Nevada onto what will be a US domestic flight. I don't think they'll get the cabotage rights - I don't think there are domestic routes in the US flown by foreign carriers they can sell tickets on. E.g. QF has LAX-JFK run, but one can't buy ticket on that segment alone, without continuing on some other QF flight. Would be nice though.  
 
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:00 pm

Just because Hawaii is not the most logical place for Europeans to visit sub-tropical does not mean that Europeans will never want to visit Hawaii. Limited charter service, even a scheduled a couple times a week may very well be possible. And there likely are business travelers from time to time.
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nutsaboutplanes
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:05 pm

I wonder if Brian/ Debbie and Joe/ Mary know that their vacation plans are being discussed on Anet?
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dazbo5
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:26 pm

Being 'Brian' and regularly traveling with Thomson Airways (12 weeks tomorrow I'm off to MLE for the third time with them, sadly from LGW as they've pulled MAN aleady), I say bring it on! Hawaii has been banded around since they ordered the 787-8's so it's nothing new. Whether it'll become a reality remains to be seen but it'll only be from LGW, sadly. I can see MRU and the revival of PVR being popular though as both are great destinations. It's worth a try so if they think the market is big enough, they can only give it a go and see how it goes. I'd certainly give it a try if the price is right.

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by738
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:34 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 18):
It happens all the time on charter flights to the Caribbean already

I think most from Europe go non-stop
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:50 pm

Why can't you people just leave us alone and mind your own business.

Regards

Brian and Debbie

ps : we have no interest in going to Hawaii - we're going clubbing in Ibiza
 
bralo20
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 20):
they will need to be able to sell tickets to Joe and Mary from rural Nevada onto what will be a US domestic flight. I don't think they'll get the cabotage rights - I don't think there are domestic routes in the US flown by foreign carriers they can sell tickets on

This will likely change in the next couple of years, it's part of the big free-trade negotiations that the EU will commence next month. When succeeded EU airlines will be able to transport passengers and sell tickets on domestic flights in the US after the plane made landfall.

It could take a couple of years but this will happen someday  
 
sandyb123
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:07 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 14):
Great Circle mapper suggests it's 6311 nautical miles from Gatwick to Honolulu. If I was to make a guess I'd say it's going to be about a 14.5 hour flight.

There are other aircraft that can easily fly this mission. Ala 772LR, albeit not immediately available to TUI. Now they have an aircraft that can do it doesn't mean they should.

I think the economics of this mean TUI will struggle with Honolulu. They major on short haul to brand-operated hotels (I'm doing it next week). Majorca is easy, Honolulu not so.

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sunrisevalley
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:20 pm

Quoting lax777lr (Reply 10):
Again, doubtful. Even with the 787's big improvement in efficiency and ultimately operating costs, this bird still needs to burn a lot of fuel to carry enough fuel for an ULH mission like this.

For comparison, A 763 with 260 seats , as Thomson runs them, will burn 60t of fuel on a 12.5hr sector. A 788 with 288 seats will burn 62t on a 13hr 45min sector which is about what LGW-HNL would be.

In my view LGW -HNL is very possible. May be they can also run from FRA and get a whole lot of the Germans that flood the Caribbean.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:12 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
I haven't lived in the UK for some time but Thomson as I recall is a charter operator so if they can fill a plane load of package holiday makers for Hawaii then theoretically it is doable. The real question though is why British holiday makers would bother to fly all the way to Hawai'i when for a lot less flying hours, and a lot less transitted time zones they can get to Mauritius, the Seychelles, the Maldives, the Caribbean, Thailand?

I Think TUI would struggle to sell enough holidays to make Hawaii viable. They operate in a very competitive environment, not only against other package holiday companies, but also with different destinations competing against each other. For the distance there's quite a few other destinations with lower cost economies available. Many packages are sold all inclusive so the people going on them tend to just stay in the hotel grounds, thus the main criteria are temperature, hours of sun and cost.
The Carribbean offers high temperatures and sun, local costs however aren't cheap, so whilst BA and VS fly a lot of passengers, TUI etc with their more budget conscious customers do far less, and fly to the likes of Cancun instead.
 
max999
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:08 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

The question of whether to start a flight is not about whether there's a market for it. There will always be people who want to fly from point A to point B...especially popular destinations like UK and Hawaii.

The real question is whether the flight will be profitable. Long haul flights are expensive to operate...The aircraft for long haul flights literally become flying tankers, they're burning fuel just to carry fuel. You need to charge a high ticket premium to cover those extra fuel costs.

Hawaii is a popular tourist destination, but not a business destination...few people are paying full fare business / first class tickets so the yields are lower. Probably not high enough to cover the costs of long haul flights. This is why people are skeptical that UK - Hawaii is going to work.

Whether the 787 can have low enough fuel costs to make this flight profitable remains to be seen. Thomson is probably trying to figure this out so that's why they haven't committed to Hawaii.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
mffoda
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:08 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
The real question though is why British holiday makers would bother to fly all the way to Hawai'i when for a lot less flying hours, and a lot less transitted time zones they can get to Mauritius, the Seychelles, the Maldives, the Caribbean, Thailand?

I've been to Mauritius, and I live on the US east coast. People travel to experience new things, the distance is why they Fly in the first place. I could paddle to the Caribbean from where I live, but that does not mean I wouldn't love a nice Hawaiian holiday... I sure I'm not alone here.
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
nutsaboutplanes
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:13 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 31):
I sure I'm not alone here.

You are not!   
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:24 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

No I didn't say that. I guess the lack of market is for F/C classes on that route. But for charters it's doable.

Quoting AirbusGeek (Reply 13):
How can they?! It would be about a sixteen hour trip! The only aircraft which could possibly do it is the Boeing 747-400ER, right?

Someone I know went to HNL from ZRH with a night stop at LAX. Flights for both legs were about 12 and 5 hours respectively. Non-stop out of the UK it might be around 15 or less. Still a long flight if you ask me.
 
airbazar
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:43 pm

Quoting APYu (Reply 19):
Yes I've been to Hawaii thanks. TUI would be and do compete at hotels popular with japanese and other eastern tourists. They have just pulled MLE as a result of that competition sadly.

The Maldives are a completely different situation though. Hotel rooms are limited and as a visitor you don't really have any option but to stay at one of the resorts because there's nowhere else to stay. Hawaii has a huge variety of hotels and condo resorts that go largely unfilled outside the US vacation season.

Quoting by738 (Reply 24):
I think most from Europe go non-stop

Today most charter companies have upgraded to 767s/A330's thanks to the growth of this market but until very recently they were flying 753's to Orlando and the Caribbean with a stop in Gander.

Personally I think Europe-Hawaii is only a matter of when not if. Hawaii is a place like no other and it's not like Europeans aren't used to travel far away for a vacation. They certainly don't lack the time off  
 
b747400erf
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:49 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 14):
Great Circle mapper suggests it's 6311 nautical miles from Gatwick to Honolulu. If I was to make a guess I'd say it's going to be about a 14.5 hour flight.

I don't get why people on here always use great circle mapper. Do you not realize no commercial aircraft flies direct?

Not only will a realistic flight plan be closer to 1000 miles, but you are fighting some of the strongest high altitude winds on the planet the entire way.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:04 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
The real question though is why British holiday makers would bother to fly all the way to Hawai'i when for a lot less flying hours, and a lot less transitted time zones they can get to Mauritius, the Seychelles, the Maldives, the Caribbean, Thailand?

Many people fly further to experience something different. At the same time, many people would prefer to travel closer to save on time and money.

We'll see if it works for the former assuming this route ever starts.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 18):
Those tourists don't usually go for the cheap lodging. Have you ever been to Hawaii? There is an abundance of inexpensive lodging outside of the fancy hotels. That is the least of their problems. Being from Portugal myself and having spent plenty of Summers in Algarve I'm very familiar with what Brian and Debbie from Essex are looking for and it's not the same type of accomodation that Japanese tourists go for And by the way, the Chinese tourists spend even more than the Japanese tourists.

When I visit TripAdvisor.com to read hotel reviews before traveling, I'm always amazed at the number of reviews by people from Germany, England, Australia, etc. I'm also struck by how many are happy/thrilled with their accommodations at places like Best Western, Holiday Inn, etc. - I'd assume that on a vacation like this they'd prefer something more "special", but clearly there is a market for a long-haul, budget-minded traveler.

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 22):
I wonder if Brian/ Debbie and Joe/ Mary know that their vacation plans are being discussed on Anet?

LOL

-Dave
-Dave
 
tortugamon
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:26 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 28):
For comparison, A 763 with 260 seats , as Thomson runs them, will burn 60t of fuel on a 12.5hr sector. A 788 with 288 seats will burn 62t on a 13hr 45min sector which is about what LGW-HNL would be.

10% further with 10% more people for similar fuel is not too shabby. I thought it would be a touch better than that though.

If TUI runs enough of these I wonder if it will make HA think twice about waiting around until 2018 for their A350-800s.

tortugamon
 
SYDAIRPORTS
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:38 am

Wouldn't PER be longer ? Thomson has flown to PER in the past with multiple stops.

We were going to fly Thomson to UK from PER 4 or 5 years ago I think it was for AUD$199, but could get to PER from BNE, SYD or MEL under $600 as it was around Christmas.

Also another interesting way to get from Australian east coast to UK, via HNL, presuming Thomson could get traffic rights USA/Australia.

Maybe for charters or scheduled charters ?
 
mffoda
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:09 am

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
The real question though is why British holiday makers would bother to fly all the way to Hawai'i when for a lot less flying hours, and a lot less transitted time zones they can get to Mauritius, the Seychelles, the Maldives, the Caribbean, Thailand?

I've been to Mauritius, and I live on the US east coast. People travel to experience new things, the distance is why they Fly in the first place. I could paddle to the Caribbean from where I live, but that does not mean I wouldn't love a nice Hawaiian holiday... I sure I'm not alone here.
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
Viscount724
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:15 am

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 1):
Non stop UK - Hawaii!!! That's one hell of a long flight!
Quoting lax777lr (Reply 10):
Again, doubtful. Even with the 787's big improvement in efficiency and ultimately operating costs, this bird still needs to burn a lot of fuel to carry enough fuel for an ULH mission like this.

I wouldn't consider LGW-HNL as ULH. It's roughly 1,000 nm shorter than routes like DXB-LAX.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:08 am

I expected Europe to HNL flights, but this could be far sooner than I expected.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Its a charter, a few times a week in peak season. That can be done.

   That is the beauty of charter... fly the number of *weekly* flights that can be filled at good yield. If the market is 2X/week... fly that. If 3X or 4X, fly that. We're not discussing daily flights. Per the prior thread (qf002 supplied in reply 15 noted below, you have in post #3 that there were 125 pax/day UK to Hawaii. I would expect a non-stop from LGW first on perhaps a 2X weekly basis. Then I would expect another UK city to be added (1X or 2X week). But as you note, only in peak season.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 15):
That thread, for anybody who might be interested: UK To HNL, Is There A Market? (by readytotaxi Jan 12 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Thank you. I appreciate you providing the link.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 15):
Quoting AirbusGeek (Reply 13):
How can they?! It would be about a sixteen hour trip! The only aircraft which could possibly do it is the Boeing 747-400ER, right?

It's not actually a particularly long route in the global scale of things, and well within reach of the 788, 77W/77L, A345 and A388 (all of which have more range than the 747-400ER).

The 744ER would be the last plane I would expect on the route. The frequency would be too low and CASM too high. I love the queen of the skies, but as qf002 notes, there are many more aircraft that can fly the route and the 789 and A359 will join that list shortly.

Quoting APYu (Reply 17):

Adding a stop would make that even less attractive to TUI travels core markets of families with kids and senior couples.

   Get them in the seats and turn on the IFE and hope the kids nap. I haven't braved long haul with my kids, but I bet they would love it. The flight would be just as much an adventure as the destination. But transferring flights... ugh. I'm having to do that with my kids next week and it is the one part of the trip I worry about as with kids, they add a whole new dimension with connections...

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 28):
For comparison, A 763 with 260 seats , as Thomson runs them, will burn 60t of fuel on a 12.5hr sector. A 788 with 288 seats will burn 62t on a 13hr 45min sector which is about what LGW-HNL would be.

In my view LGW -HNL is very possible. May be they can also run from FRA and get a whole lot of the Germans that flood the Caribbean.

Thank you for the numbers. It is quite possible. I do not expect a daily, but a few direct flights could double the UK-Hawaii market easily.

Lightsaber
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Max Q
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:46 am

I think this would be a major hit and this is one of the many missions this Aircraft will excel at.


The factor that people are ignoring here is the allure of Hawaii, those islands have more than a little magic
associated with them.


Bet on it.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:43 am

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

The last discussion on this topic was HA ordering 777s just to fly to Europe.

Hawaiian 777 Order/lease Is Coming Soon?! (by jdflyvc10 May 22 2013 in Civil Aviation)


Has anyone here actually read the source article....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...h-routes-as-787-extends-reach.html

“Hawaii, South Africa -- it can even get to Perth if you fly in the right way with the right number of people,” Jeremy Ellis, U.K. and Ireland marketing director for Thomson parent TUI Travel Plc (TT/), said in an interview on its first 787 flight to Menorca, Spain. “All of these destinations we’re considering.”


Just because it can get there, doesn't mean it will go there.

The big issue with such long flights is the amount of time the aircaft is away from home. If its' 15 hours each way, plus 2hr turn round at either end, thats 36hrs on one round trip - when the aircraft could be used on 1.5 trips to the US or carribbean in that time frame. Its a lot of aircraft lease costs on one service.

Considering the latent demand from the UK to South Africa, and the multi daily services already going there, I see this as the first long haul market to be considered by 787s.

As was discussed ad nausium in the Haiwaii thread, there is so little O&D to Hawaii from the UK. Of course the market would be stimulated by a direct charter service, and the service will fly full, but will it be profitable???

the Actual tiny O&D statistics were provided in the HA thread.
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NAV20
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:22 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 48):
The big issue with such long flights is the amount of time the aircaft is away from home. If its' 15 hours each way, plus 2hr turn round at either end, thats 36hrs on one round trip

Interesting point, BestWestern. And, added to that, there's the question of crews. Given that this sort of 'holiday' service would be unlikely to justify daily flights, more likely one flight a week? Allowing for flight preparation time, loading and disembarkation etc., seems to me that the likely pattern would be a single crew doing 'out and return,' with a night's sleep in between? With two fifteen-hour flights, plus 'time on ground,' 'time away from home' etc., one 'out-and-return' trip would virtually use up enough hours for the crew concerned to have done something over a normal week's work in only two calendar days?  
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PHX787
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:27 am

Well with the 787 I guess most everything is possible. I heard people over here at HND talking about a potential non-stop by NH to South America with the Dreamliner.

I have a friend who worked at HA for a while and he said there was always a sizable amount of people on his US-HNL flights that were from England. I also heard a rumor from someone else that said that some of the people on the SEA-HNL and PHX-HNL flights are connectors from the UK.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 3):
Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

They also said that American legacies would never consolidate and that EK would never co-operate.

Both eventualities foreseen by a few on here including I.

I take everything anyone says here with a grain of salt unless it's from one of the big-timers working in the industry (KarelXWB, Lightsaber, HKCanadaExPat, Stitch, Wilco737, for example, are the people I follow closely on this site in terms of relevance)
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BestWestern
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:48 am

This whole article was what they could do, not what they will do...

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 49):
more likely one flight a week

At one a week, the crew costs are huge with two crew sets overnighting in the Hilton HNL for a week....

At two per week, that's an aircraft scheduled from Monday thru Thursday..

If an aircraft goes Tech - the replacement takes the best part of a day to arrive.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 49):
With two fifteen-hour flights, plus 'time on ground,' 'time away from home' etc., one 'out-and-return' trip would virtually use up enough hours for the crew concerned to have done something over a normal week's work in only two calendar days?  

Correct. Add that to the aircraft lease costs for a 36hr round trip to the final holiday price... And don't forget the cost of the US INS electronic clearance scam for a family of four.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 50):
Well with the 787 I guess most everything is possible.

Everything is possible with the 777 - but doesn't mean that it happened...

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 50):
I also heard a rumor from someone else that said that some of the people on the SEA-HNL and PHX-HNL flights are connectors from the UK.

Correct - good connections to HNL to take the tiny amount of passengers currently going from island to island. The stats were in the last thread i linked to above. Most here chose to ignore statistics, and prefer to play fantasy airline routes.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 48):
it can even get to Perth

Does anyone really think Thompson will fly the 787 to Perth..... Of course not. A charter carrier being the only non stop to Australasia from Europe....

So, if in the same sentence the CEO mentions Hawaii - it doesn't mean it's going to happen. Same for Perth.

South Africa could work - huge current demand and perfect usage for off season aircraft. Same cannot be said for HNL. This market has to be stimulate from basically zero.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

There is demand for services from the UK to HNL - small, unprofitable demand, that is profitably served by a one stop.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 50):
a potential non-stop by NH to South America with the Dreamliner.

You simply cannot compare a potential high yield alliance hub to alliance hub service to a low yield bucket and spade operation from Gatwick.
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N1120A
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:59 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 15):
Quoting AirbusGeek (Reply 13):
How can they?! It would be about a sixteen hour trip! The only aircraft which could possibly do it is the Boeing 747-400ER, right?

It's not actually a particularly long route in the global scale of things, and well within reach of the 788, 77W/77L, A345 and A388 (all of which have more range than the 747-400ER).

Not to mention the 772ER, A346, A343, 744(non-ER) and probably even the 762ER.

Shoot, maybe Iran Air will start it with the 747SP now that Rowhani is around?  
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1400mph
Topic Author
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:17 am

Let's not under estimate the lure of Hawaii or the attractiveness of an affordable holiday there with a non-stop flight.

Remember you Americans especially on the west coast it is practically on your door step from a 'by air' point of view, to us over here it has always been a far more illusive and exotic destination. Even if it actually isn't.

The place may not be any different from say the volcanic Canary Islands (4 hours from the UK) but it is somewhere new and for the average Brit it is the ultimate glamour beach holiday destination. Combine that with the familiarity of being American hence all the trimmings that comfort loving Brits adore and it's a sure fire winner.

You know what people are like. I could see the place becoming the new 'in and trendy' 'street cred boosting' place to vacation. The crowning glory of anyone who loves to name drop. 'We're off to Hawaii don't you know' Next seen prancing up and down the street adorned in Hawaiian garlands for all to see !

It was Spain and its islands, then it was Florida, then the Caribbean, then Thailand and its islands and so on. People are always looking for somewhere new.

I don't think the legacies these days are in the business anymore of turning their backs on future sources of revenue. Not with their lowering cost bases, cheaper staff and fuel efficient aircraft.

What's to stop BA starting 787 service to HNL from LGW at some point in the future ?
 
BestWestern
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RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner

Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:42 am

To put this in perspective, what would be the return fuel price per passenger on a Thompson 787 from LGW to HNL assuming a 80% load?

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 53):
'in and trendy' 'street cred boosting' place to vacation.

Hawaii was 'in' about twenty years ago

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 53):
the attractiveness of an affordable holiday

Hawaii is not a cheap destination
15hrs away on a 787 is not a cheap place

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 53):
People are always looking for somewhere new.

And 99.99999% just end up back at the the Sol Torremolinos three star apart hotel after the "how much???" shock of two weeks in Hawaii.
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