notdownnlocked
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Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:01 am

Word in the press is that they will leave ST and join Star. What's everyone's opinion on this.

[Edited 2013-06-28 01:03:53]
 
Tobias2702
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam

Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:03 am

Quoting notdownnlocked (Thread starter):
Word in the press is that they will leave ST and join Star.

Just no. It only reads "Aeroflot considers leaving SkyTeam"
http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...-aeroflot-20130627,0,4857825.story
And what's more, the whole story reads like a random rumor. Nothing substantial at all; there is no official word from SU.

[Edited 2013-06-28 01:05:28]
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notdownnlocked
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:11 am

After reading these press reports/opinions it seems to me that they were somewhat coerced to join. Is there any cooperation between SU and DL? If not why is there none??? I know that DL can be quite arrogant at times.
 
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Paolo92
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:46 am

The original "rumor" originated from this Russian article:
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2221411
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BestWestern
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:16 am

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 2):
I know that DL can be quite arrogant at times.

SU are well known to be super arrogant too. They had previously denied access to lounges for Elite Plus for other airlines.

If they are considering moving to Star, they have to put up with the premier league of arrogance - SQ
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sofianec
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:59 am

According to the article Aeroflot is very unhappy with Delta as the latter has stopped SU from expanding in the United States by giving them unjustly high fares for connections beyond JFK thus making any SU codeshare expansion uneconomical. SU also states that even without an alliance partner they get better fares via FRA on LH. Aeroflot are contemplating either not being part of an alliance at all or joining Star.

To point out SU has made a very tight cooperation agreement with TK also considering a joint carrier with Turkish. Previously SU didn't want to get cozy with LH because of latter aggressive expansion into Russia but those concerns are all gone now.

Another concern is that SU were "forced" to accept an alliance with SkyTeam as a political decision rather than economical.

Since it is published with so many details in Kommersant I wouldn't dare call it a rumor. They (SU) could be pressuring DL to offer them better fares or simply fed up with them and looking for a way into Star.

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globalflyer
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:09 pm

You know to be honest it just seems like a slow crumbling of the alliances in a way as we are seeing especially with EY the close ties to the likes of AF/KL and then the new EK/QF tie up, etc. You just have to wonder if the alliances really add any value, especially now with the DL example as it has changed it tune and really reduced benefits with some of its own SkyTeam carriers like KE yet are really aligning to carriers not in the ST alliance, like G3, VA and AS. I just take whoever gets me there safely and for the best fare! Fortunately I almost exclusively travel in JCL so the alliance benefits really are not as great.
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enilria
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:34 pm

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 2):
After reading these press reports/opinions it seems to me that they were somewhat coerced to join. Is there any cooperation between SU and DL?
Quoting sofianec (Reply 5):

According to the article Aeroflot is very unhappy with Delta as the latter has stopped SU from expanding in the United States by giving them unjustly high fares for connections beyond JFK thus making any SU codeshare expansion uneconomical. SU also states that even without an alliance partner they get better fares via FRA on LH. Aeroflot are contemplating either not being part of an alliance at all or joining Star.

DL just shafted SU in their new Elite FFP tiers. Of course, they screwed over several partners. Given the thread on AS, it would appear SU should get in the complaint line behind all of DL's other partners. I think unless there is a JV, DL treats partners and competitors essentially the same. Perhaps SU should go for a JV!

I've also been hearing lately that DL's deal with VX is partially meant to counterbalance their growing dependence on AF/KL which gives them more power over DL, so perhaps even a JV does not mean equality.
 
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:34 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 4):
If they are considering moving to Star, they have to put up with the premier league of arrogance - SQ

  

As a former employee of a Star Alliance carrier, most member airlines offer employees reciprocal flight benefits on each other.

Except SQ. They are the most tight fisted airline I've ever seen when it comes to employee travel agreements.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:15 pm

Oh God please let this happen!         
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LAXintl
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:22 pm

Here is Reuters story.

Basically, yes SU management would like to bolt from Skyteam as it sees "no benefits", and "there is no point in cooperating with them [Delta]," but decision is not airlines directly to make.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia...ers-leaving-skyteam-074306408.html

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flashmeister
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
DL's deal with VX

VX = Virgin America. You probably meant VS, which is Virgin Atlantic. DL and VX do not have a deal.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:35 pm

The article states...

As a member of SkyTeam, which brings together 19 global airlines, Aeroflot cannot undercut prices offered by other members and could become more competitive by joining the Star Alliance, Kommersant said.

Since when.....




I think this goes both ways. Aeroflot has wrongly flouted alliance rules over the years... for example

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/flyin...4241-no-lounge-access-su-plat.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/skyte...es-excluded-cz-elite-benefits.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/flyin...banned-using-aeroflot-lounges.html


Aeroflot are an excellent airline, sounds like they are not getting things their way this time..
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cokepopper
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:40 pm

What, if anything has Aeroflot brought Delta?
 
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enilria
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:51 pm

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 11):
Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
DL's deal with VX

VX = Virgin America. You probably meant VS, which is Virgin Atlantic. DL and VX do not have a deal.

Sorry, DL is allied with every Virgin airline except VX. I meant VS.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 13):
What, if anything has Aeroflot brought Delta?

Access to one of the fastest growing world economies. If that's not of value then why have an alliance at all.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 13):
What, if anything has Aeroflot brought Delta?

Besides access to a BRIC economy, in practical terms many 1000's of people that utilize DL for portions of their journeys, and likely added membership and their revenues in things like SkyPesos.
Also for the DL customer they gain access to many markets SU is uniquely positioned to serve.
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OA412
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:37 pm

I'm not understanding their beef re: DL charging high fares. What do they mean by that? Is DL charging them the high fares, or SU passengers the high fares?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
SkyPesos

Am I the only one tired of the term "SkyPesos?" I couldn't care less if people make fun of the program, but the whole idea of referring to it as Pesos comes off as really offensive, and an insinuation that Mexico is still some sort of worthless basketcase.
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enilria
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:14 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 16):
I'm not understanding their beef re: DL charging high fares. What do they mean by that? Is DL charging them the high fares, or SU passengers the high fares?

They are saying that if you fly something like :
CMH-JFK-(DL)-SVO-KBP on a DL ticket versus CMH-JFK-(SU)-SVO-KBP on an SU ticket that SU is charging the same for the SVO-KBP, but that DL charges itself less for the CMH-JFK than SU which puts them at a disadvantage.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:17 pm

It also likely has to do with fare proration, and access to inventory on DL, which ultimately effects SU ability to price and sell tickets.
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peanuts
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:09 pm

Sounds to me like partly a US domestic capacity/pricing challenge.
If SU wants to run to UA for their US domestic needs and UA obliges how would this even help UA competitively in the US? It wouldn't.

So SU wants either a stronger commitment and level of respect from DL (warning shot) or they want multiple partnerships in the US.

DL will sit down and talk. But only to an extent.

AF/France has a big say as well. But how this one plays out is also government driven, not just management.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:27 pm

I have heard the Trans Aero offers an excellent product. Has anyone had an opportunity to fly on them?

Anyone know if they are aligned with one of the groups?

As far as I know since DL flies to Moscow SU offers connections within Russia and the CIS as part of the Skyteam.
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B738FlyUIA
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:48 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 20):

I have heard the Trans Aero offers an excellent product. Has anyone had an opportunity to fly on them?

Yes, I've been on UN 4 times. Flying out of DME & SVO (SGN & HKT) to Asia. Do find that the service is very good and to my opinion better then on SU (only within Europe). Just send me a PM if you want to know more about it.

Cheers  
 
speedygonzales
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:36 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 20):
I have heard the Trans Aero offers an excellent product. Has anyone had an opportunity to fly on them?

I've only flown them domestic (DME-PKC-DME), and it sucked.

Both legs were flown with 767s that were due for the scrapper, or at the very least a total interior overhaul. The seats were very worn and uncomfortable, and the logos of the former owners (Gulf and EVA) featured prominently in the interior, which IMO looks very unprofessional.

I flew SU SVO-VVO last year and both the aircraft and the service was much better than UN.
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miaintl
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:01 pm

So is DL the reason why SU operates only 2x weekly to MIA and 1x weekly to IAD, instead of going daily to both places?
 
jfidler
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:09 pm

Quoting miaintl (Reply 23):
So is DL the reason why SU operates only 2x weekly to MIA and 1x weekly to IAD, instead of going daily to both places?

You raise a very good point. I was looking at their route map and it looks like they only fly from SVO to MIA, JFK, IAD, and LAX, and some services are not even offered daily. I couldn't find any flights to the US offered from any city other than SVO either.

Compare that to other European flag carriers like LH, BA, AF, and KL and they all fly more often, and to more destinations in the US. On top of that, all those European countries have a significantly smaller population than Russia.

So it seems to me like SU is not pulling its weight when compared to flag carriers in other countries. Or is SU being held back by some bilateral aviation treaty and they are not allowed to add any more frequencies or destinations?
 
staralliance85
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:18 pm

I've been saying this for the longest time "Skyteam is the weakest alliance" KE a very important Asian carrier goes out of its way to distance themselves from their fellow ST members. KE imposes tons of blackout dates on their fellow ST members award availability. Star and OneWorld members are much more unified than ST. ST was big back in 2004 when CO, KL,NW and SU joined. Back in the day With CO Skyteam , it was once in a blue moon that there would be award availability for their partners because ST members are big on black outs. I miss CO but one of the most positive results I the UA/CO merger is that they are in STar. Now UA partner award availability is great.


SU will benefit a lot more from Star than ST. With the exception of SQ, Star members act more like an alliance than Skyteam.
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BestWestern
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:37 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 20):
I have heard the Trans Aero offers an excellent product. Has anyone had an opportunity to fly on them?

I have flown maybe 20 sectors on Europe and domestic segments on both narrow and widebody aircraft. They are the only airline that I will never fly on again. period.

Aeroflot is a far superior airline, one of the best in Europe.
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:39 am

Quoting miaintl (Reply 23):
So is DL the reason why SU operates only 2x weekly to MIA and 1x weekly to IAD, instead of going daily to both places?

Demand determines frequency. There are just not that many people that was to go from MIA or IAD to SVO every day to make it financially viable.
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luckyone
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting jfidler (Reply 24):
Compare that to other European flag carriers like LH, BA, AF, and KL and they all fly more often, and to more destinations in the US. On top of that, all those European countries have a significantly smaller population than Russia.

There are a couple of reasons for this:
1. Russia's GDP is also significantly smaller (Antigua's is higher, for example).
2. Russians also do not have visa-free access to the States.
3. Americans do not have visa-free access to Russia.
4. Americans are not flocking to fly to Russia, unlike Western Europe, which puts a lot of passengers in the EU carriers' seats.
5. The distances are much shorter, making the flights more economical.
 
sofianec
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:07 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 28):
2. Russians also do not have visa-free access to the States.

Apart from West Europe, Australia and Japan there are not many countries with visa free access to the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Waiver_Program

This is not stopping countries that have decent growing economies to add flights to US - Brasil, Turkey, India, Russia (BRIC) therefore demand is there. LH Group flies many Russians between Russia and US.

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EddieDude
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:16 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
I think unless there is a JV, DL treats partners and competitors essentially the same.

AM is not a J-V partner and they have a relationship that just keeps growing beyond traditional issues such as codesharing and mileage, such as equity ownership and close M.R.O. cooperation.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 16):
and an insinuation that Mexico is still some sort of worthless basketcase.

Argentina, Chile, Colombia and Philipines also have pesos as their local currency. I do disagree as much as you do with the use of the term SkyPesos because it is indeed an offensive insinuation, but my concern is for all the nations that use pesos, not just for one. Maybe your subconscious betrayed you here?

Quoting peanuts (Reply 19):
DL will sit down and talk. But only to an extent.

I think DL should talk to SU. I think SU could be a formidable actor in the worldwide context and DL and SU have a lot to share with and learn from each other. I certainly hope SU does not leave SkyTeam. I was also amazed that DL won't award MQM's to SkyTeam members flying SU. What the hell is that about?
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Jano
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:14 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 30):
I was also amazed that DL won't award MQM's to SkyTeam members flying SU. What the hell is that about?

DL does award MQMs for SU operated flights,
https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/skymiles/earn-miles/earn-miles-with-partners/airlines/aeroflot-russian-airlines.html
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EddieDude
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:35 am

Sorry, my bad! Two bads actually. I meant to type "SkyMiles" rather than "SkyTeam", and yes, DL does award MQM's to SkyMiles members when flying SU, but at a reduced rate! That is what shocked me. And I was even more shocked to see KE flights won't earn DL flyers MQM's at all. Why???
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
hohd
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:26 pm

The way DL is treating its Skyteam partners, this loose alliance may crumble. KE might leave and Aeroflot also. Also cannot understand why DL does not include their JV partners, AF/KL in the MQD qualifications. After all they share revenue equally.
 
slider
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:56 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
It also likely has to do with fare proration, and access to inventory on DL, which ultimately effects SU ability to price and sell tickets.

I think you're on to something here, certainly. Also, I don't know how many markets and/or flights DL has on SU codeshare flights or vice versa. Alliances try to maximize those options and, in turn, the revenue, obviously, but the extent of the codeshare operation under the SkyTeam umbrella for DL/SU might be a factor in their unhappiness.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 28):
2. Russians also do not have visa-free access to the States.
3. Americans do not have visa-free access to Russia.
4. Americans are not flocking to fly to Russia, unlike Western Europe, which puts a lot of passengers in the EU carriers' seats.

Good points... it's a challenging place to do business, there aren't many tourist places to visit comparatively to many other nations, and it's also a VERY expensive place to visit. Moscow is perenially the most expensive business city, if I'm not mistaken. That's a disincentive to Americans to visit given the rest of the globe.

Quoting sofianec (Reply 29):
Apart from West Europe, Australia and Japan there are not many countries with visa free access to the US:

True, but the Russian visa process is very onerous. It's a pain in the ass, actually. It's an obstacle to even wanting to go there, frankly.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Aeroflot To Leave Skyteam?

Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting sofianec (Reply 29):
Apart from West Europe, Australia and Japan there are not many countries with visa free access to the US:

Also Canada, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Brunei, New Zealand.