tridum
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Northwest DC-7C?

Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:17 am

Hello all,
I am doing some research on Northwest airlines 14 DC-7C's but still have some questions and hope that someone can help answer them.
1. What were the delivery dates for the DC-7C's? I know that the first delivery was in February 1957. However, it appears that the airline took delivery of an initial 8 followed by a further 6.
2. When did the paint scheme change (if it did) to look like the DC-6's? When delivered the DC-7C's had a large compass aft of the cockpit windows, with "Northwest" under the cockpit windows on the red cheat line. Further the scheme had "DC-7C" in large letters on the tail above the American flag. At some point, presumably in the early-mid 60's (by way of the DC-6) the "Northwest"under the cockpit was removed and the tail number moved from the tail to the aft fuselage.
3. Northwest converted 10 DC-7C's to freighters. When did this occur and what were the tail numbers?

Thank you for the help!
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:12 am

Quoting tridum (Thread starter):
1. What were the delivery dates for the DC-7C's? I know that the first delivery was in February 1957. However, it appears that the airline took delivery of an initial 8 followed by a further 6.
Quoting tridum (Thread starter):
3. Northwest converted 10 DC-7C's to freighters. When did this occur and what were the tail numbers?

Yes they took delivery of theirs in two batches. They even took three second-hand aircraft. For more details you can check this address: http://www.geocities.com/aeromoe/fleets/nw.html and also http://www.airlinerlist.com/ where I'm sure you'll find detailed data about delivery and conversion dates.
 
maxpower1954
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:41 pm

And they lost three - two very successful ditchings and one crash in the Pacific with no survivors.
 
ozark1
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:52 pm

According to a book I have entitled "More Than Meets The Sky", Northwest operated 17 DC-7C's. It's mainly a pictorial history with very few written pages of information, but here are the tail numbers if you need them. The glossary in the back does not mention delivery dates.
NWA No.281-N2281
NWA No.282-N2282
NWA No.283-N2283
NWA No.284-N284
to and including
NWA No.297-N297.
So starting with 284 they reduced the N numbers by one.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 3):
NWA No.281-N2281
NWA No.282-N2282
NWA No.283-N2283

Those three are the second-hand aircraft acquired in 1958.
 
tridum
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:30 pm

Thanks for the info about the tail numbers and conversions. Did Northwest modify the paint scheme like the DC-6's in the 1960s?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting tridum (Reply 5):
Did Northwest modify the paint scheme like the DC-6's in the 1960s?

Are you referring to the different livery just behind the cockpit in these NW DC-7C photos (both dated 1960)?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mel Lawrence
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mel Lawrence



The first photo has the registration on the rear fuselage (like the photo below) and the second photo has it vertically near the top of the tail.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mel Lawrence



[Edited 2013-07-07 16:46:47]
 
tridum
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:22 am

Yes the livery behind the cockpit. They removed both the Compass and the "Northwest"under the cockpit and moved the tail number to the fuselage. Northwest apparently kept the "DC-7C" on the tail until the planes were retired in the mid-late 60's? Further, it appears that the markings on the wings were removed as well.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:08 am

The old livery had 'Northwest' on the nose and vertical numbers on the tail.
Beginning late 1958 some of the aircraft delivered with the Imperial Eagle logo on the tail as well as DC-7C. Not all aircraft were painted in this livery. (All L-188's and two DC-8's delivered with Imperial Eagle logo).
A few aircraft traded-in to (a reluctant) Douglas on new -8's.
10 ended up converted to CF's. When they weren't stranded by mx issues they flew in a mixed configuration as well as MATS charters. Towards the end of service with NW they were freight-only----certainly by '66. There were only a few left and were finally withdrawn from use by '67. The last one was sold off in early '68 I believe.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:35 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 8):
Beginning late 1958 some of the aircraft delivered with the Imperial Eagle logo on the tail as well as DC-7C

IIRC, this was carried over to the Electras when they were delivered. I have seen many pictures of the "Regal Eagle" on the tail and always wondered why NW did not keep it.
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:27 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 2):
And they lost three - two very successful ditchings and one crash in the Pacific with no survivors.

I was friends with the NW purser that was on the DC-7 that ditched in Manila Bay. He used to love to tell the story about how after the ditching, the company contacted him not to find out if the cabin crew were OK but they wanted to know the numbers on the liquor kits! True story.
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masseybrown
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:34 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 10):
the company contacted him not to find out if the cabin crew were OK but they wanted to know the numbers on the liquor kits!

Under Donald Nyrop, NW was famous for counting every penny twice.
 
tridum
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:08 pm

thanks everyone. I've been away so I haven't had a chance to check on the thread. A couple of final questions and I should have the info I need: 1. When did the conversions take place? Looking at the pictures on this site it appears they took place by 1961/62 at the latest. 2. Was the "DC-7C" ever removed from the tail or did it remain there until NW retired the planes?
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:59 pm

Quoting tridum (Reply 12):
they took place by 1961/62

Yes. Mostly 1961.

The" DC-7C" remained on the tail. It was never changed to "CF" as many other carriers did when theirs were converted.

I miss the 7's terribly. Maybe it was just the era. There was nothing like the sound of those Wrights chugging as a 7 taxied by. Or the earth-pounding sound on take-off. Inside my favorite seat was 4D. A perfect view of the stacks on #3 made for rather spectacular start-ups and especially night take-offs.   
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
tridum
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:43 pm

ImperialEagle you've been a great help as I attempt to model a NW DC-7C. A couple other questions though: Upon delivery were the wing tips painted red on all aircraft? The only picture on this website of an as delivered NW DC-7C appears as though the wings tips aren't painted. In Gann's book there is a picture of a DC-7C in flight, but I can't tell if the tips are painted. It would appear as though they are not.
Finally, do you know what planes were delivered with the Imperial Eagle logo on them?
Thanks again!
 
sparky35805
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:49 am

I have never seen a photo of a Northwest aircraft other than an Electra with the Eagle on the tail.Even the two DC-8s delivered in the old livery did not have it.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:53 am

I believe all delivered with painted wing-tips. The fabric ailerons not painted. Flag as well under starboard wing and on top of port wing right next to red area. I only recall about a half-dozen with the Imperial Eagle----the last batch delivered I think.

The first two -8's had the Imperial Eagle on them, no red stripe under the cockpit windows, and the dark blue (almost black) cheat line was still ABOVE the windows. The last three were painted in the up-dated livery with the (more navy blue in color) cheat line running through the windows, red stripe under the cockpit windows and large "DC-8C" lettering on the tail as well as a small flag.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
sparky35805
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:04 am

I would love to see a photo of a 7C or DC-8 with the eagle on the tail.I have photos of several 7Cs including one of the last delivered.I also have photos of DC-8s ship 801 and 802 and both have the red stripe on the nose and no eagle on the tail,just a flag.I do have an in service photo of Electra N121US without the red stripe,but also have a later photo in which it has the red stripe.
 
highflier92660
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:56 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 16):
The fabric ailerons were not painted.

Perhaps a question for the tech forum but I've always wondered why Douglas and Lockheed had fabric ailerons and rudders on their piston airliners all the way up to the DC-7C and 1649A Starliner? Did they use ceconite for those control surfaces?

I don't recognize any servo-tabs in the photos (see: inboard aileron in a Boeing 707.) I'm assuming the DC-7C didn't have a 3,000 psi Skydrol hydraulic system for boosted controls so perhaps the fabric was better back in the day of bell cranks and counter-weights?
 
maxpower1954
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:16 pm

I can answer that for you, old airplanes are my specialty!

Fabric was used because it was easier to counter-balance because of weight. Later post war piston designs like the Convairs had all-metal surfaces Cotton was used initially, Ceconite and other synthetics didn't come along until the early 1960s.

Piston aircraft used ML-5606 mineral based hydraulic fluid (the red stuff) instead of Skydrol. You are correct, none of the Douglas four-engine transports had hydraulically-boosted flight controls. IIRC the DC-6/7 had a semi-servo tab system similar to the DC-8 elevator system; control wheel movement initially moved the control surface then the servo tab started to assist.
 
timz
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:58 pm

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 18):
I don't recognize any servo-tabs in the photos

Flight says they have "aerodynamic tabs"

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1956/1956%20-%200907.html
 
tridum
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:21 am

I have one other question (at the moment) concerning the exterior appearance of NW DC-7C's. The crown of the planes is a gloss white, with a bare metal underbody. However, looking at a decal sheet of DC-6's it appears that the area around the tail skid was white. Is this true of the DC-7C's and if so did they retain that for their entire career?

There is one other general question about NW I have: It appears that NW was 'Northwest Orient" in the 50's, then became "Northwest" in the 60s, then "Northwest Orient" again in the 70s and finally settling on "Northwest" until their takeover by Delta. Why did the airline seemingly change its name back and forth or was the pre-60's "Northwest Orient" an unofficial recognition?

[Edited 2013-07-16 22:28:06]
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:59 am

Quoting tridum (Reply 21):
Is this true of the DC-7C's

No. Underside should be plain aluminum.

Quoting tridum (Reply 21):
Why did the airline seemingly change its name

Competition. the term "Northwest Orient" was an unofficial term used fifties, sixties and seventies. NW was key in the pipeline for equipment and personal in the Asian theater during WWII. This also included outstanding service in Alaska for the military. So NW was compensated with route awards to Japan and other Pacific destinations. It was NW who helped to re-establish a Japanese air line system after the war. (With Martins  Wow! and DC-4's).

PA did not take this "invasion" into it's long-standing "turf" lightly. Competition was furious. Equipment and service standards were the "ammunition" of the day.NW pulled off what was then a pretty amazing feat (considering they had come within a whisker of bankruptcy) and matched PA's equipment standards (actually scared PA's mule with the 1049G's) but, PA already was a household name in the minds of those Americans lucky enough to travel in those days. NW had to have a gimmick to get their name up on the "radar". So the Sales Dept. came up with the Northwest ORIENT Airlines lingo. There was a catchy little jingle on the radio and on television. Some may recall the sounding of the gong-----"Northwest Orient---"GONG"---Airlines". It worked. It made what had for years sound like a "regional" U.S. carrier into an "International" carrier in the minds of the traveling public. It didn't hurt the Hawaiian service either.

Once NW began to serve Europe and Great Britain the "Orient" moniker was quietly dropped, however years of using it had the desired effect and in the minds of experienced travelers NW was an "International" carrier.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:10 pm

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 17):
.I do have an in service photo of Electra N121US without the red stripe,but also have a later photo in which it has the red stripe.

I was not aware that there had been a change. Unfortunately, N121US was only in service for a couple of months when it suffered structural failure over Tell City with the loss of everyone on board. Details of this accident can be found in Robert Serling's excellent (but hard to find) book called "The Electra Story."
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tridum
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:39 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 22):
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 22):
Competition. the term "Northwest Orient" was an unofficial term used fifties, sixties and seventies. NW was key in the pipeline for equipment and personal in the Asian theater during WWII. This also included outstanding service in Alaska for the military. So NW was compensated with route awards to Japan and other Pacific destinations. It was NW who helped to re-establish a Japanese air line system after the war. (With Martins Wow! and DC-4's).

PA did not take this "invasion" into it's long-standing "turf" lightly. Competition was furious. Equipment and service standards were the "ammunition" of the day.NW pulled off what was then a pretty amazing feat (considering they had come within a whisker of bankruptcy) and matched PA's equipment standards (actually scared PA's mule with the 1049G's) but, PA already was a household name in the minds of those Americans lucky enough to travel in those days. NW had to have a gimmick to get their name up on the "radar". So the Sales Dept. came up with the Northwest ORIENT Airlines lingo. There was a catchy little jingle on the radio and on television. Some may recall the sounding of the gong-----"Northwest Orient---"GONG"---Airlines". It worked. It made what had for years sound like a "regional" U.S. carrier into an "International" carrier in the minds of the traveling public. It didn't hurt the Hawaiian service either.

Once NW began to serve Europe and Great Britain the "Orient" moniker was quietly dropped, however years of using it had the desired effect and in the minds of experienced travelers NW was an "International" carrier.

PA seemed to have an issue with competition in general. Look at the fight between Howard Hughes of TWA and Juan Trippe directly after WW2 when Hughes wanted to expand TWA to Europe.
Did PA fight other airlines similarly? UA only started flying from San Francisco to Hawaii after the war if I'm not mistaken. Also there was Chicago and Southern (later Delta) flying from points inside the US to the Caribbean, CO to South America and I thought Braniff flew international routes in the 50s as well. All of these routes were in direct competition to PA.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting tridum (Reply 21):
However, looking at a decal sheet of DC-6's it appears that the area around the tail skid was white. Is this true of the DC-7C's

The trapezoid-shaped painted area around the tail skid to which you presumably refer, below the port side horizontal stabilizer, is actually light gray (similar to if not same as today's 'Boeing Gray') and, based on photos I have seen, applies only to the port side of the of the lower fuselage. It is indeed seen on DC-7Cs as well as DC-6s.

Both types also typically if not universally have light gray painted areas on upper and lower wing surfaces over the areas where engine exhaust passes. On some photos (including one of a NW DC-7C) I also notice that the outer ~half of the horizontal stabs are painted light gray top and bottom (roughly in line with engine exhaust flow from inboard engines). In a photo of a DC-6B taken from below while on a pre-delivery flight I have also seen small light gray painted areas on the otherwise natural metal lower fuselage.

Although I am not aware of the 'official' explanation for the light gray painted areas on otherwise bare metal surfaces of DC-6/-7 propliners, it would seem reasonably safe to speculate that, based on the areas painted and subsequent practice in the jet age, the light gray paint was applied to DC-6/-7s (including NW DC-7Cs) to protect areas that are especially subject to corrosion and/or the effects of exhaust heat/soot due to their location.

[Edited 2013-07-17 09:09:54]
 
masseybrown
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:17 pm

Quoting tridum (Reply 24):
PA seemed to have an issue with competition in general.

Juan Trippe felt Pan Am was the US's "chosen instrument", essentially an arm of the State Department. It had functioned that way during WWII, being all but part of the Army Air Corps especially in flying to South America, Africa, and Australia. The theory was that in exchange for flying uneconomic diplomatic routes, the airline would be protected and guaranteed profits on other routes. Post-war, things didn't play out that way; political pressure gradually allowed more and more competition.
 
maxpower1954
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:44 pm

There also was a certain amount of entitlement about Juan Trippe and Pan American. Since they had taken the financial and technical risks pioneering achievements like the Trans-Pacific routes, Trippe felt the spoils belonged to PAA alone.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:26 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 27):
There also was a certain amount of entitlement about Juan Trippe and Pan American. Since they had taken the financial and technical risks pioneering achievements like the Trans-Pacific routes, Trippe felt the spoils belonged to PAA alone

The fact that he had substantial enemies in high places in the federal government did not help, either, which is why he brought Najeeb Halaby onboard--to smooth out relations. It did not work and Pan Am was repeatedly denied domestic traffic rights. For more information on the entire story of Pan Am I highly recommend a book called "Skygods--The Fall of Pan Am" by Robert Gandt.
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maxpower1954
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:40 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 28):
The fact that he had substantial enemies in high places in the federal government did not help, either, which is why he brought Najeeb Halaby onboard--to smooth out relations. It did not work and Pan Am was repeatedly denied domestic traffic rights. For more information on the entire story of Pan Am I highly recommend a book called "Skygods--The Fall of Pan Am" by Robert Gandt.

Yes, PurserBoy "Skygods" is a terrific book, I enjoyed it more than even the late Robert Serling's airline histories.
 
highflier92660
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 22):
Some may recall the sounding of the gong-----"Northwest Orient---"GONG"---Airlines."

It never fails to impress me as to the recollection of some Anetters. Even those of you who were born in the early to mid-fifties must have been "flying" Schwinn bikes with balloon tires when these commercials were made.

Note the uses of the pentatonic scale and the Chinese gong: http://myoldradio.com/old-radio-epis...cails-northwest-orient-airlines/13
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 26):
The theory was that in exchange for flying uneconomic diplomatic routes, the airline would be protected and guaranteed profits on other routes. Post-war, things didn't play out that way; political pressure gradually allowed more and more competition.

In the immediate post-WW2 years, it seems that President Truman wasn't merely 'open' to considering the idea of ending Pan Am's monopoly in their main international 'spheres of influence'...he essentially demanded that PA be subjected to competition from U.S. airlines-to-be-named, in the trans-Pacific, North Atlantic and South America arenas. For some reason, I suspect that Truman, a no-nonsense type, besides being a staunch believer in a competitive marketplace, was, shall we say, rather irritated by Juan Trippe's well-deserved reputation for scheming and plotting to crush would-be competition on PA's monopoly routes.

Initially (in the late 1940s), with the exception of TWA and American Overseas Airlines from New York across the North Atlantic, PA's new post-WW2 competitors did not, technically speaking, compete directly with PA. Prior to 1951, Braniff's gateways to South America were HOU and MSY whereas PA flew south from NYC and MIA.

In the case of NW, their only trans-Pacific gateways to/from the U.S. (prior to 1969) were SEA and ANC -- which actually gave then-'upstart' NW an advantage over PA in that NW's U.S.-Tokyo flights operated via the considerably shorter Great Circle routing whereas PA's served Tokyo via the more circuitous (by 1600 miles) mid-Pacific routing, SFO-HNL-AWK-TYO. In addition, NW could offer 1-airline service to East Asia via SEA from New York, Chicago and other northern U.S. cities whereas, aside from SFO and HNL O&D traffic, PA depended on connections provided by other airlines to fill their trans-Pacific flights.
 
tridum
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:38 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 28):
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 28):
The fact that he had substantial enemies in high places in the federal government did not help, either, which is why he brought Najeeb Halaby onboard--to smooth out relations. It did not work and Pan Am was repeatedly denied domestic traffic rights. For more information on the entire story of Pan Am I highly recommend a book called "Skygods--The Fall of Pan Am" by Robert Gandt.

This would explain why PA did not fly to domestic cities, save Chicago and (maybe?) Detroit.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:46 pm

Quoting tridum (Reply 24):
and I thought Braniff flew international routes in the 50s as well. All of these routes were in direct competition to PA.

I don't think any of Braniff's nonstop U.S.-South America routes were also operated by Pan Am. Braniff did initially compete directly with Panagra, the carrier owned 50-50 by Pan Am and the W.R. Grace shipping company. Braniff acquired Panagra in 1967.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:20 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
I don't think any of Braniff's nonstop U.S.-South America routes were also operated by Pan Am. Braniff did initially compete directly with Panagra, the carrier owned 50-50 by Pan Am and the W.R. Grace shipping company. Braniff acquired Panagra in 1967.

Braniff served mainly Colombia and the west coast of South America, even after acquiring Panagra. Pan Am's S.A. network was focused on Caracas, Brazil, Buenos Aires and Montevideo, to which they flew more direct and non-stop routings than Braniff. Until well into the 1970s, Braniff's flights to Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires took a less direct routing via the west coast of the continent, through Lima or Santiago de Chile. On the other hand, Pan Am never served the west coast cities of S.A. covered by Braniff, pre- and post-Panagra merger.

BTW...Braniff found their DC-7Cs to be well-suited to the hot and high conditions encountered at many of the points they served in South America...especially in crossing the Andes Mountains on flights between the east and west coasts of the continent.

[Edited 2013-07-17 16:22:15]
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:50 am

Quoting tridum (Reply 32):
This would explain why PA did not fly to domestic cities, save Chicago and (maybe?) Detroit.



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They were originating and terminating points for international flights only--mostly from LHR. Pan Am never had any domestic travel until they acquired National Airlines.

Juan Trippe made some serious enemies starting with Truman up to and including Jimmy Carter. Originally Pan Am was awarded DFW-LGW rights, but Braniff fought it and Carter reversed the decision giving the route to Braniff. It really made sense--Pan Am had no way to feed the flight from DFW and Braniff had no trouble doing so with the domestic network.
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airtechy
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:05 am

Did the NW DC-7's have the range for SEA to HND non-stop or did they have to stop in ANC? My first commercial flight was on a DL DC-7 from TYS to ATL in 1966.....still remember that flight. They retired them shortly thereafter.

AT
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:02 am

Quoting airtechy (Reply 36):
Did the NW DC-7's have the range for SEA to HND non-stop or did they have to stop in ANC?

In theory...maybe eastbound, contingent upon highly favorable conditions aloft. In 'the real world'...no. Based on my NW timetables from 1957 to 1960, inasmuch as ANC is not shown as a stop on SEA-TYO v.v.it appears that pilots may have had the option to operate the 4800 mile route non-stop, conditions permitting. From what seem to be reliable sources, in reality the route was rarely to virtually never if ever flown non-stop by NW's DC-7Cs. Besides the (apparently) optional refueling stop at ANC, NW also maintained a refueling/tech stop base on Attu Island (located at the westernmost end of Alaska's Aleutian Islands chain) that was used at times, perhaps in place of (or in addition to) ANC. Whereas SEA-ATU-TYO mileage is the same as that of SEA-TYO nonstop via the Great Circle (shortest possible) routing, SEA-ANC-TYO by comparison added just over 100 miles.

Interestingly, when NW's first jets (DC-8-32s) entered service on SEA-TYO, ANC is shown (in NW timetables) as an intermediate stop with specified arrival and departure times whereas flights that (briefly) continued to be flown by DC-7Cs after the arrival of jets showed no stops between SEA and TYO.
 
tridum
Topic Author
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:40 am

RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:45 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 13):
The" DC-7C" remained on the tail. It was never changed to "CF" as many other carriers did when theirs were converted.

I was doing a search on ebay of "Northwest DC-7C" and came across a postcard of what appears to be tail N291 without the "DC-7C" on the tail. Based on the paint scheme it looks to be from the mid 60's, however the postcard is undated. Is it possible that some of the DC-7C's had the title removed from their tail near the end of their careers?
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1510
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:23 pm

Quoting tridum (Reply 32):
This would explain why PA did not fly to domestic cities, save Chicago and (maybe?) Detroit.

The best way to describe PA's route network is that Chicago and Detroit were the only "inland" cities they flew to on the US Mainland prior to deregulation. I think every city other than Chicago or Detroit that PA served in the 48 US State mainland was on, or very close to, the Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, or Gulf of Mexico. The one exception was Dallas, which was served briefly in the mid 1970s with DFW-HNL 747 SP flights. Interestingly, PA's CHI, DTT, and DFW authorities all came from AA; CHI and DTT when PA bought American Overseas Airlines, and DFW as part of the AA / PA route swap.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 35):
Pan Am never had any domestic travel until they acquired National Airlines.

Pan Am was not allowed to carry passengers within the 48 US State mainland until 1976. In 1969, Pan Am was awarded New York - Los Angeles / San Francisco authority, but no local JFK-LAX/SFO passengers could be carried - just passengers flying from JFK to Asia / Australia / Hawaii, or California to Europe / Africa. Prior to 1969, Pan Am could not fly from New York to California on a scheduled basis; PA relied on AA and UA to bridge the gap.

In 1976, Pan Am was awarded local traffic rights on DTW-BOS. DTW-BOS was previously an AA monopoly, but PA was given the right to carry local passengers between the two cities, on flights that flew DTW-BOS-Europe. North Central was also awarded DTW-BOS authority, with full turn around rights.

Just before deregulation was passed, PA was allowed to carry local passengers on several other routes, but only on flights leaving the 48 state US mainland. I will check my copy of PA's 1978 annual report tonight for the list of the routes.
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:27 pm

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 30):
It never fails to impress me as to the recollection of some Anetters. Even those of you who were born in the early to mid-fifties must have been "flying" Schwinn bikes with balloon tires when these commercials were made.

Heck, I remember those NW Orient TV commercials embedded in the 10pm news in Chicago. They were on channel 2, and they would usually alternate them with ads from the Santa Fe Railway advertising the Super Chief/Ed Capitan service from CHI-LAX.
Probably around 1963-64.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
timz
Posts: 6163
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:13 pm

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 37):
NW also maintained a refueling/tech stop base on Attu Island

More likely Shemya?

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 39):
Prior to 1969, Pan Am could not fly from New York to California

PA transcons started 1967 or '68.
 
timz
Posts: 6163
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting tridum (Reply 21):
It appears that NW was 'Northwest Orient" in the 50's, then became "Northwest" in the 60s

Timetables always said Northwest Orient, didn't they?
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:12 pm

Quoting timz (Reply 41):
More likely Shemya?

Thank you for noting...NW's Aleutian refueling/tech stop was indeed at Shemya rather than Attu. The total mileage of the routing SEA-SYA-TYO is also the same as SEA-TYO non-stop via the Great Circle routing.

Quoting timz (Reply 42):
Timetables always said Northwest Orient, didn't they?

Before 11/1/46 No
11/1/46 - 7/5/50 Yes
9/6/50 - 4/26/53 No
7/1/53 - 6/5/86 Yes
10/1/86 and after No

(dates are based on "effective from" dates shown on covers of actual NW-issued timetable images)
 
superjeff
Posts: 758
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 10):
I was friends with the NW purser that was on the DC-7 that ditched in Manila Bay. He used to love to tell the story about how after the ditching, the company contacted him not to find out if the cabin crew were OK but they wanted to know the numbers on the liquor kits! True story.

Boy does that sound like Northwest! Don Nyrop was know to be somewhat of a carmudgeon. The rumour I had heard was when NW built a new corporate headquarters at MSP, they asked the employees if they wanted windows OR air conditioning. The employees voted for AC, so the building was built with no windows. So i can believe this!
 
superjeff
Posts: 758
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:37 pm

Quoting tridum (Reply 24):
PA seemed to have an issue with competition in general. Look at the fight between Howard Hughes of TWA and Juan Trippe directly after WW2 when Hughes wanted to expand TWA to Europe.
Did PA fight other airlines similarly? UA only started flying from San Francisco to Hawaii after the war if I'm not mistaken. Also there was Chicago and Southern (later Delta) flying from points inside the US to the Caribbean, CO to South America and I thought Braniff flew international routes in the 50s as well. All of these routes were in direct competition to PA.

Trippe was a rough competitor. But note that before the war, PA was probably the only carrier (besides BOAC/Imperial Airways) that had equipment capable of flying either Transpac or Trans-Atlantic.

C&S flew to various Caribbean points over New Orleans, a "hub" that remained until DL set up an Atlanta hub in the early to mid '70's and moved everything there. Braniff was the US flag carrier to the West Coast of South America (largely over Miami, but with some flights out of New Orleans and SFO/LAX; in 1967 they bought Panagra (1/2 owned by Pan Am) from W..R. Grace and PA and merged it into their own operation. What is now American's South American network is largely the remnant of the old Braniff system, which had a major hub in Lima.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19287
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:40 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 45):
C&S flew to various Caribbean points over New Orleans, a "hub" that remained until DL set up an Atlanta hub in the early to mid '70's and moved everything there.

DL's only nonstop Caribbean service (to SJU) as late as December 1979 was from MSY and MIA. It doesn't look like they obtained rights to move the MSY route to ATL until sometime in the early 1980s.

The other Caribbean (and Venezuela) destinations inherited from the C&S merger were dropped by DL sometime in the mid-1970s.
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2238
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:17 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 37):
pilots may have had the option to operate the 4800 mile route non-stop, conditions permitting.

Hahaha. It went something like "top off the oil and check the gasoline". You might just have the fuel to make it but on a -7 you could find out fast it's the oil that dictates how much range you have left!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1032
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:23 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 39):

The best way to describe PA's route network is that Chicago and Detroit were the only "inland" cities they flew to on the US Mainland prior to deregulation.

Northwest Airlines would fly a PanAm 707 between MSP and DTW, both ways in the early 1970s, and PanAm would fly the aircraft to Europe and back. It was called an interchange.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1053
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: Northwest DC-7C?

Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:41 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
DL's only nonstop Caribbean service (to SJU) as late as December 1979 was from MSY and MIA. It doesn't look like they obtained rights to move the MSY route to ATL until sometime in the early 1980s.

Delta did fly non-stop LAX-SJU in the early 1970s. I think it only lasted a few years.

http://www.departedflights.com/DL030173.html

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